In three games against top 12 defenses (Washington, Mich St and Michigan), Haskins had a 10-0 TD-INT ratio. Against those same defenses other QBs had a 30-36 TD-INT clip
in six games against Top 25 opponents this season, threw 20 touchdown passes (and just 2 INTs) for 1,987 yards and completed 66.2 pct. of his throws (149 of 225).
I've never been a fan, I say pass!
Cool post.
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Yo.
Cool post.
Do you recall how many people were injured for Michigan? And do you know how bad MSU was last year? Michigan state doesn’t really face quality QBs.... but I am sure you knew that.
I'm sure he was under pressure at times and made some good plays, but it is easier to play QB when you are standing there looking for open guys.
I'm not saying he won't be a good NFL QB, I'm just saying take those stats with a large grain of salt.
But you can do this (pick them apart) with every QB, every draft. I am not enamored with any QB this draft (except Murray). He is not even my 2nd favorite QB in this draft, I want defense at 6... but that said if the Giants take him (wherever) I will root for the pick.
As long as, Eli is our best option...that is how I feel.
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In comment 14398785 dep026 said:
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Yo.
Cool post.
Do you recall how many people were injured for Michigan? And do you know how bad MSU was last year? Michigan state doesn’t really face quality QBs.... but I am sure you knew that.
Michigan States defense played very well at the end of the season.
It's a diminishing skill as time goes by in the NFL. So if he's as immobile as he is now, at 21 years old, we are likely talking Kerry Collins-level statuesque in 4 or 5 years.
Tim Tebow 88 TDs and 16 Ints.
Translation...Who cares what they did in college.
That said, it says something great about Haskins ability to play against top competition but it is a team sport.
A picture of Jamarcus Russell comes to mind.
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is the reason why the Giants don't want anything to do with Haskins regardless of the prospect of new sponsors from Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers.
A picture of Jamarcus Russell comes to mind.
I think Haskins has a "gut" feeling too, or maybe its a feeling in his gut
I just checked the box score and dont see whats impressive about it. I know stats dont tell the story.... but I must be misisng something?
Why bother them with facts?
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
Yea and gotta love the people who say "but Jones faced more adversity so that's why he'll succeed in the NFL." As if actual production and winning count for nothing!
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In comment 14398835 Diver_Down said:
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is the reason why the Giants don't want anything to do with Haskins regardless of the prospect of new sponsors from Jenny Craig or Weight Watchers.
A picture of Jamarcus Russell comes to mind.
I think Haskins has a "gut" feeling too, or maybe its a feeling in his gut
Probably the sack of White Castle churning...
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For Haskins, the talent around him is a negative and used to downplay his ability as a passer.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
Yea and gotta love the people who say "but Jones faced more adversity so that's why he'll succeed in the NFL." As if actual production and winning count for nothing!
Give me soem Tim Tebow, Colt McCoy, Vince Young, and Sam Bradford baby!
So yes, he shredded them. But pray explain his performance against Purdue.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
What is funny about the fact that 1 immobile option dumped off short passes to Paris Campbell and 2 other NFL WRs and watched them do the work while the other QB was either under pressure every snap or delivered balls that were dropped left and right?
None of this is false or "an excuse".
What about these highlights from Haskins is impressive? The fact he didn't screw up?
Haskins ... or Campbell? - ( New Window )
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For Haskins, the talent around him is a negative and used to downplay his ability as a passer.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
What is funny about the fact that 1 immobile option dumped off short passes to Paris Campbell and 2 other NFL WRs and watched them do the work while the other QB was either under pressure every snap or delivered balls that were dropped left and right?
None of this is false or "an excuse".
What about these highlights from Haskins is impressive? The fact he didn't screw up?
Haskins ... or Campbell? - ( New Window )
GG two questions: which games' every throw tapes of Haskins have you watched? Could you please list them?
Which Buckeyes games of 2018 did you watch live? Be honest.
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In comment 14399602 Stupendamatic said:
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For Haskins, the talent around him is a negative and used to downplay his ability as a passer.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
What is funny about the fact that 1 immobile option dumped off short passes to Paris Campbell and 2 other NFL WRs and watched them do the work while the other QB was either under pressure every snap or delivered balls that were dropped left and right?
None of this is false or "an excuse".
What about these highlights from Haskins is impressive? The fact he didn't screw up?
Haskins ... or Campbell? - ( New Window )
GG two questions: which games' every throw tapes of Haskins have you watched? Could you please list them?
Which Buckeyes games of 2018 did you watch live? Be honest.
I watch the players before I comment. Watched Michigan live (on TV - brother in law Michifan fan, best friend's fam big OSU fans) if that counts ... and I've watched the "every throw tapes" on Youtube vs WAS, MICH, PENN ST
I have done a lot of "work" on him, with an open mind, to try and get excited by him ... I see nothing special and an elite supporting cast grossly inflating his statistics.
I actually became a huge fan of Paris Campbell after diving more into Haskins ... Haskins is my only "remote thrower" (metaphorically speaking) at the moment.
I want nothing to do with him at 6.
Outside of Ohio State, this wasn't a bumper crop of good offenses and offensive talent in the B1G. So I wouldn't give those ranking a lot of credibility.
Outside of Ohio State, this wasn't a bumper crop of good offenses and offensive talent in the B1G. So I wouldn't give those ranking a lot of credibility.
Remember that Bush, Gary, winovich, and hill were all banged up against OSU. Gary and winovich shouldn’t have played.
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defenses were ranked high. But were they actually good or beneficiaries of playing in a very down year in the B1G?
Outside of Ohio State, this wasn't a bumper crop of good offenses and offensive talent in the B1G. So I wouldn't give those ranking a lot of credibility.
Remember that Bush, Gary, winovich, and hill were all banged up against OSU. Gary and winovich shouldn’t have played.
Well, let's be honest. That game wasn't Don Brown's most glowing moment from a strategy standpoint.
Haskins shredded it, absolutely destroyed it. He threw 50, and he did it without a running game. That's 25% more for crissake.
I've said for a while I don't know what the Giants are going to do at #6 but it wouldn't surprise or dismay me in the least if they select him.
I've never been a fan, I say pass!
I think it's fair to say that you don't like the guy or suspect he won't make it, but I don't really get the "statue" claim that is repeatedly made about him. I know his 40 time wasn't good, but everything I've seen about him shows he has good pocket awareness and mobility in the pocket. Maybe I'm missing the plays where he just folds like a statue. I don't know.
Meanwhile, I give you an example of him NOT looking like a statue - his pocket awareness and scrambling ability while keeping his eyes downfield to make a play look exactly like what I want out of an NFL QB.
Haskins shredded it, absolutely destroyed it. He threw 50, and he did it without a running game. That's 25% more for crissake.
I've said for a while I don't know what the Giants are going to do at #6 but it wouldn't surprise or dismay me in the least if they select him.
Ron Dayne for a lot of yards in college too ... I couldn’t care less about college stats
Please watch this video, if you have time, and tell me how many throws you honestly find impressive? Impressive meaning “wow I hope we land this guy”.
I’m trying, really hard, to find a way to get excited by Haskins ... how many of those TDs would you actually consider impressive ?
There’s quite a few glorified handoffs that go in his stat column, especially in the red zone (when he’s not hitting wide open targets there too)
Haskins - ( New Window )
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...he threw 39 TD's.
Haskins shredded it, absolutely destroyed it. He threw 50, and he did it without a running game. That's 25% more for crissake.
I've said for a while I don't know what the Giants are going to do at #6 but it wouldn't surprise or dismay me in the least if they select him.
Ron Dayne for a lot of yards in college too ... I couldn’t care less about college stats
Please watch this video, if you have time, and tell me how many throws you honestly find impressive? Impressive meaning “wow I hope we land this guy”.
I’m trying, really hard, to find a way to get excited by Haskins ... how many of those TDs would you actually consider impressive ?
There’s quite a few glorified handoffs that go in his stat column, especially in the red zone (when he’s not hitting wide open targets there too) Haskins - ( New Window )
I'm watching it right now - first TD was thirty yards on a rope into tight coverage - looks like an NFL caliber throw to me, not a "glorified handoff".
I will post a comment for passes that are impressive, but remember these are just the TD's.
Very nice throw IMO.
Anyway, #10 is a beautiful perfectly placed ball 47 yards in the air. Perfect NFL-caliber throw with touch.
High quality throw.
Thanks for watching ... looking forward to your final impression.
Mine: I want Paris Campbell, not Dwayne Haskins
Anyway, #10 is a beautiful perfectly placed ball 47 yards in the air. Perfect NFL-caliber throw with touch.
It’s quite relevant when you realize how many of those TDs came from wide open dumpoffs or passes less than 10 yards where the WR did all the work after the catch
7 throws out of 25 so far
I'm beginning to think the problem for some of you guys is that he actually makes it look too easy. It isn't. He's a natural whose skillset and physique will translate to the next level.
There are a handful of players I'd embrace at #6 and he's certainly one of them.
I was with you ... but this is a slant route any half decent nfl starter will make
He has all day to throw to a wide open WR and he underthrows him
There is absolutely nothing special about this throw. It’s not even a good play on his part ... wow.
He had exceptional receivers.
He generally had very good blocking.
He benefits from all of that.
He also makes a TON of plays. He has excellent touch and accuracy. How many of those plays were less than 100% accurate? Maybe 3 of 56 or whatever? Fine, a few which were not perfect but still catchable.
I've enjoyed Eli's career and am a big fan. One of my favorite all-time Giants players. I know he regularly makes off-target throws, far more than I've seen from Haskins.
I've not watched every Haskins game because I can't find them all. I've watched the "every throw" tapes and seen plenty where he's off, especially earlier in the year.
Having said that I've never seen him be off more than 6-7 times in a game - when he's got 30 or so attempts. That's the reason why he has such an incredible completion percentage.
You may not like him for a variety of reasons, but saying he doesn't throw the ball well or that he only dumps it off and gets tons of YAC is wrong. He throws it beautifully both mid-range and downfield with regularity.
I don't have some of the advanced analytics stats in front of me but what I've seen support my observations.
He had exceptional receivers.
He generally had very good blocking.
He benefits from all of that.
He also makes a TON of plays. He has excellent touch and accuracy. How many of those plays were less than 100% accurate? Maybe 3 of 56 or whatever? Fine, a few which were not perfect but still catchable.
I've enjoyed Eli's career and am a big fan. One of my favorite all-time Giants players. I know he regularly makes off-target throws, far more than I've seen from Haskins.
I've not watched every Haskins game because I can't find them all. I've watched the "every throw" tapes and seen plenty where he's off, especially earlier in the year.
Having said that I've never seen him be off more than 6-7 times in a game - when he's got 30 or so attempts. That's the reason why he has such an incredible completion percentage.
You may not like him for a variety of reasons, but saying he doesn't throw the ball well or that he only dumps it off and gets tons of YAC is wrong. He throws it beautifully both mid-range and downfield with regularity.
I don't have some of the advanced analytics stats in front of me but what I've seen support my observations.
Never said his arm wasn’t legit or he wasn’t inaccurate.
Did say his stats, which some mention as a reason to select him, are grossly inflated by the ability of guys like Campbell to either take the glorified handoff or catch a crossing route and do the actual work on several long TDs
I do not hate Haskins. I just do not see anything special.
If the Giants do take him, hopefully they bring Campbell along for the ride too ... he’s a guy I fell in love with after digging into Haskins.
I was with you ... but this is a slant route any half decent nfl starter will make
Disagree - he didn't even finish his drop - took one step and threw flat footed, very very quick release. Not all QB's make that play with that timing. All good QB's do. Not all QB's do.
It's interesting not because it's a slant route - you are right that most any decent QB can complete the slant with accuracy. It's interesting because of the timing. He saw the need to get the ball out quickly and improvised the throw to give the receiver the best chance to make a play. He rifled it from a unique arm angle without his feet placed correctly and it was perfect.
BTW that's >20 yds in the air as well. Looks like a 10 yd slant but it's not.
Again, good QB's make that play, many other NFL QB's do not.
Never said his arm wasn’t legit or he wasn’t inaccurate.
Did say his stats, which some mention as a reason to select him, are grossly inflated by the ability of guys like Campbell to either take the glorified handoff or catch a crossing route and do the actual work on several long TDs
Here's what you did say (and why I watched the video):
I saw a ton of throws that I found impressive. Not too many QB's have a TD only highlight reel from one season with more.
And BTW, I'm with you on Campbell. Don't forget the other receivers too - lots of good receivers there.
You must be very good at your metier.
GG, I hope you appreciate what Dan did above. He has one of the sharper minds on this Forum, and a good set of eyes too. You should really try to talk less and listen more.
You must be very good at your metier.
GG, I hope you appreciate what Dan did above. He has one of the sharper minds on this Forum, and a good set of eyes too. You should really try to talk less and listen more.
That's very kind BlueLou, but I don't view it as a lesson at all. For me it's just comparing notes on what we see.
I'm no expert, haven't risen to the level of others who are in a position to be critical of professionals. I'm just a guy who's been watching the Giants since the '80s. I haven't missed a snap of a game in over 20 years and almost always watch each game twice and take notes. I read Defenderdawg's threads religiously, especially looking for the articles with X's and O's, because I love the sport, but not because I know anything about it. When you read what I see you're getting an amateur's opinion, nothing more.
Having said that, this look back at Haskin's TD's was specific to looking for impressive throws. I admittedly threw in some other small things I noticed, like mobility and decision making once or twice. A much better evaluation would include the red zone, because it's very difficult to pass for TD's there. Everything happens quicker and so you can get a really good idea about a QB's abilities from how they perform in tight to the goal line. Some things you can notice include non-throwing aspects of play like reads, decision-making, and timing, as well as throwing aspects like velocity, accuracy, timing, and touch. It seems arbitrary to remove the red zone passes when looking for impressive throws, given how difficult it can be to score in the red zone.
I also think it's a little too simple to write off other plays made by amazing playmakers. Bubble screens and wheel routes have to be timed and placed with perfect accuracy and touch for playmakers to be in a position to make plays. Anyone who's watched Eli extensively knows that a great QB can struggle with putting receivers in the best position in the short game. Additionally pre-snap reads of the defense, selling the play-action, footwork in the pocket, looking off defenders all come into play on a ton of short passes. To simply discount all of that as "glorified handoffs" is wrong imo. If it's so easy to do, why don't more QB's have success with it?
Finally, the analysis done above is bad because it doesn't include anything BUT scoring plays. Any real scouting analysis would spend at least as much time if not more on the other plays, particularly plays where DH struggled. If he was off target, why? That's a far more important question.
I don't know how anyone can provide the highlight reel of 56 TD passes over 13 or so games as evidence that a guy is not an impressive thrower though.
Want to know another first year starter who had >50 passes? Mahomes this year for the Chiefs. Guess how many of his TD passes were from inside the red zone or were short passes his playmakers took to the house?
Find out for yourself here.
I've never been a fan, I say pass!
Any qb will put up numbers like Haskins? Even with the protection cmon, not every or any qb puts up those numbers. If they did we’d see 50 tds more often than we do. Haskins was insanely productive. Let’s leave it that.
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For Haskins, the talent around him is a negative and used to downplay his ability as a passer.
For Jones, the lack of talent is an excuse to why he didn't put up great numbers and used to show his toughness.
Yea and gotta love the people who say "but Jones faced more adversity so that's why he'll succeed in the NFL." As if actual production and winning count for nothing!
Jones did produce though. He did win.
You must be very good at your metier.
GG, I hope you appreciate what Dan did above. He has one of the sharper minds on this Forum, and a good set of eyes too. You should really try to talk less and listen more.
I stopped paying attention to the “lesson” when I wide open throw with all the time in the world was actually praised, despite being underthrown - but I did appreciate the dialogue.
I’ll continue to watch the players, think for myself, and voice my opinion as i see fit. Feel free to ignore. Goodnight.
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That was the best lesson I have ever witnessed on BBI.
You must be very good at your metier.
GG, I hope you appreciate what Dan did above. He has one of the sharper minds on this Forum, and a good set of eyes too. You should really try to talk less and listen more.
That's very kind BlueLou, but I don't view it as a lesson at all. For me it's just comparing notes on what we see.
I'm no expert, haven't risen to the level of others who are in a position to be critical of professionals. I'm just a guy who's been watching the Giants since the '80s. I haven't missed a snap of a game in over 20 years and almost always watch each game twice and take notes. I read Defenderdawg's threads religiously, especially looking for the articles with X's and O's, because I love the sport, but not because I know anything about it. When you read what I see you're getting an amateur's opinion, nothing more.
Having said that, this look back at Haskin's TD's was specific to looking for impressive throws. I admittedly threw in some other small things I noticed, like mobility and decision making once or twice. A much better evaluation would include the red zone, because it's very difficult to pass for TD's there. Everything happens quicker and so you can get a really good idea about a QB's abilities from how they perform in tight to the goal line. Some things you can notice include non-throwing aspects of play like reads, decision-making, and timing, as well as throwing aspects like velocity, accuracy, timing, and touch. It seems arbitrary to remove the red zone passes when looking for impressive throws, given how difficult it can be to score in the red zone.
I also think it's a little too simple to write off other plays made by amazing playmakers. Bubble screens and wheel routes have to be timed and placed with perfect accuracy and touch for playmakers to be in a position to make plays. Anyone who's watched Eli extensively knows that a great QB can struggle with putting receivers in the best position in the short game. Additionally pre-snap reads of the defense, selling the play-action, footwork in the pocket, looking off defenders all come into play on a ton of short passes. To simply discount all of that as "glorified handoffs" is wrong imo. If it's so easy to do, why don't more QB's have success with it?
Finally, the analysis done above is bad because it doesn't include anything BUT scoring plays. Any real scouting analysis would spend at least as much time if not more on the other plays, particularly plays where DH struggled. If he was off target, why? That's a far more important question.
I don't know how anyone can provide the highlight reel of 56 TD passes over 13 or so games as evidence that a guy is not an impressive thrower though.
Want to know another first year starter who had >50 passes? Mahomes this year for the Chiefs. Guess how many of his TD passes were from inside the red zone or were short passes his playmakers took to the house?
Find out for yourself here.
I included only the TDs because that stat continues to get mentioned as a reason to draft him high ... when, in reality, a lot of the throws behind the pretty stats weren’t that impressive. Some were, most were nothing special. I actually agree with most of what you said, except for #39 - which is in no way a good throw at all. Plenty of time, wide open WR, for a guy who’s touted as having such great arm talent - that throw shouldn’t be underthrown with the WR stopping his route just to make a play on the ball. Mahomes scrambles and bombs that ball sidearm to tyreek hill in stride - they aren’t even close in terms of ability.
I do not hate Haskins, and I do not see anything special to get excited out. He has an NFL arm, he’s accurate, and he used it to exploit having superior talent around him.
Guess we’ll check back in 3-5 years ... I want nothing to do with Haskins @ 6. Thank you for your time, I enjoyed comparing notes.
I included only the TDs because that stat continues to get mentioned as a reason to draft him high ... when, in reality, a lot of the throws behind the pretty stats weren’t that impressive. Some were, most were nothing special. I actually agree with most of what you said, except for #39 - which is in no way a good throw at all. Plenty of time, wide open WR, for a guy who’s touted as having such great arm talent - that throw shouldn’t be underthrown with the WR stopping his route just to make a play on the ball. Mahomes scrambles and bombs that ball sidearm to tyreek hill in stride - they aren’t even close in terms of ability.
I do not hate Haskins, and I do not see anything special to get excited out. He has an NFL arm, he’s accurate, and he used it to exploit having superior talent around him.
Guess we’ll check back in 3-5 years ... I want nothing to do with Haskins @ 6. Thank you for your time, I enjoyed comparing notes.
Totally fair and good response, don't necessarily disagree even on #39 either, I see your point there. It's definitely okay to see things differently, especially from me. Seriously, what do I know? I'm just another guy you might meet in the bar, my opinion isn't worth spit.
Nice chatting with you.
I also watched a lot of live college FB the past 3 years. In 17 and 18, Saquon jumped off the screen to me. At times I thought I was watching Gayle Sayers redux. I also got the sense watching Barkley that he was better than whatever his stats said he was. He was underused, didn't have the right players around him, whatever...
Haskins simply jumped off the TV screen to me. I simply thought two things watching him: 1) he was not an OSU QB, I'd never seen an OSU QB with his skill set. 2) was this guy just hates to lose, he's cool as cucumber and gets better as the game circumstances demand.
Yeah his receivers were the cats' meow of CFB (except maybe for Trevor Lawrence's who are diamonds). But a whole lot of the "extras" his WRs delivered were, to my eyes, because Haskins' placement accuracy and timing of his throws led those receivers to all that extra yardage.
That's all. No in depth analysis or breakdowns of analytics or whipped cream, cherries, and nuts. Call it Zen view or thin slicing, I had a pretty good idea from the first 10-15 times I saw Haskins throw that I'd like to see him in Blue.
More than Ed Oliver? That's way above my pay scale.