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| “The people that are saying that Josh Rosen is not worth 17, they’re all fools,’’ Dan Shonka, general manager and national scout for Ourlads’ scouting service, told The Post. “Josh Rosen would be the best quarterback in this draft. Then it would be Dwayne Haskins. Haskins is the best quarterback in this draft, and he’s going to be a really good quarterback. Josh Rosen is ahead of him right now.’’ If the Cardinals take Murray and then sense they cannot get a first-round pick for Rosen, perhaps they lower their sights and accept a second-round pick. The Giants, with the 37th overall selection, would be in prime position. “The Cardinals would be fools, they’d be stupid to do that,’’ Shonka said. “That guy’s a first-round draft choice, they moved up [from No. 15] to No. 10 to get him, and they’re going to give him away, with one year of experience? I think Rosen would be a steal at 17. I tell you what, if the Giants got him at 37, that would be highway robbery.’’ |
Teams aren't buying the "sales job" the cardinals have been pushing lately.
One problem with covering the same team for as long as Schwartz has is that sources dry up over time. If a reporter doesn't take the initiative to cultivate new connections, he'll lose his edge to newcomers. That happened repeatedly to Vacchiano (who by the end seemed to just be making stuff up), and I think it has happened to Schwartz as well.
Teams aren't buying the "sales job" the cardinals have been pushing lately.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Snyder and the Skins gave up their first for Rosen.
No one truly knows who is right but if I'm the Giants, I wouldn't betting a high draft pick that Shonka is smarter than the Cardinals. Maybe, just maybe #37 but no higher...
...and we swap 3rd rd picks?!
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He is "worth" what the Market says he worth.
Teams aren't buying the "sales job" the cardinals have been pushing lately.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Snyder and the Skins gave up their first for Rosen.
I would. Especially since he doesn't fit great into that O.
I could not agree more. This just makes so much sense.
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In comment 14400750 ZogZerg said:
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He is "worth" what the Market says he worth.
Teams aren't buying the "sales job" the cardinals have been pushing lately.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Snyder and the Skins gave up their first for Rosen.
I would. Especially since he doesn't fit great into that O.
Why not?
I'm no expert on what they run, but he seems like roughly the same type of QB as Smith
I'm afraid that's the reason as well
I believe that’s a non-factor. They’re not going to fret over that if they strongly believe JR is the guy to lead us for the next decade or so, imo
My total guess as well
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they are out of the playoff hunt. Then, JR comes in and Eli rides off into the sunset. DG is probably talking with Cards about their price and negotiations are still on going between the GMs.
My total guess as well
I have been saying that Rosen would be a perfect transition from Eli. DG is always talking value, 37 for Rosen is solid value.
I would be all in on JR as I really feel they need a QB even though I think ELI can perform well this year if the line holds up. PS can have a whole year with him to get him ready and acclimated to the system. Then if ELI is not brought back next year the team is ready to go with JR.
Put it this way - the team that drafted him may not even view him as the solution - yet it makes perfect sense for the Giants?
My guess is people just want a QB no matter who the hell it ends up being. Until that guy sucks, of course.
If the Giants don’t trade for Rosen because of this, we’re doomed.
Dripping with faux melodrama, but not sarcasm....
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In comment 14400829 MarvelousMike said:
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they are out of the playoff hunt. Then, JR comes in and Eli rides off into the sunset. DG is probably talking with Cards about their price and negotiations are still on going between the GMs.
My total guess as well
I have been saying that Rosen would be a perfect transition from Eli. DG is always talking value, 37 for Rosen is solid value.
If Eli plays well and things play out as stated above it could turn out to be a seamless transition. If Eli plays poorly, and fans are screaming for Rosen, things could get sloppy. Not sure if management want to put Eli through that. But I could be wrong.
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behind Eli all year? Would Eli be okay with looking over his shoulder all year? After committing to Eli this year I don’t see it happening.
I believe that’s a non-factor. They’re not going to fret over that if they strongly believe JR is the guy to lead us for the next decade or so, imo
Not according to JT
So, what is a starting QB with good potential to improve Simply with a better o-line worth?
2nd rounder seems about right.
No, by giving him his 5 million
Agreed.
1. Draft capital spent to acquire him could be used elsewhere.
2. Cap space could be spent elsewhere
3. Investing in Rosen probably means foregoing an investment in an alternative (better) QB.
4. Potential for QB controversy should Eli struggle.
Here's my take on each of these risks.
1. There is risk in taking any prospect. Finding the next QB prospect will involve taking that risk sooner or later. No idea what the actual costs for Rosen would be - agree that AZ cannot expect a top ten draft pick, but they might hold the line on more than #37 from us. I'm not opposed to giving up #17 if the Giants have a high enough grade on Rosen but would obviously prefer to give them #37 and if needed, sweeten the deal with other picks. I really like the idea of adding a conditional pick in a future draft - Giants could control the condition (games started perhaps?) and limit the costs to acquire if they need to.
2. IF I am correct AZ is on the hook for all of the signing bonus, the only cap space the Giants would be accountable for is remaining guaranteed dollars - looks like around $2.3MM per year for 3 years. Very reasonable risk imo and less than what a draft pick at #17 would be. Downside of course is that he would hit FA before the #17 pick would, but that is not a risk, just the absence of an advantage.
3. Given that his cap space and hit if he is cut makes him an ideal candidate to take a chance on. Picking the wrong QB puts you in QB hell, as DG so famously put it before. That's especially true when you have a lot invested in that pick. At these prices Rosen would not represent such an investment, he could easily be cut in a year and put us in place to take a QB in 2020 if we want.
4. If we truly believe in Eli, why worry about a QB controversy. This only becomes an issue if Eli's play is not up to par. In that case, why not have a starter ready behind him.
By my analysis the risk is worth the reward. It would all depend on the Giants overall grade on Rosen and the final asking price of AZ. I think there's a decent chance this gets done, especially if WAS moves up to #3 as is being rumored this morning, effectively removing them from the running for Rosen as well as removing another viable QB option for the Giants this year.
1. Draft capital spent to acquire him could be used elsewhere.
2. Cap space could be spent elsewhere
3. Investing in Rosen probably means foregoing an investment in an alternative (better) QB.
4. Potential for QB controversy should Eli struggle.
Here's my take on each of these risks.
1. There is risk in taking any prospect. Finding the next QB prospect will involve taking that risk sooner or later. No idea what the actual costs for Rosen would be - agree that AZ cannot expect a top ten draft pick, but they might hold the line on more than #37 from us. I'm not opposed to giving up #17 if the Giants have a high enough grade on Rosen but would obviously prefer to give them #37 and if needed, sweeten the deal with other picks. I really like the idea of adding a conditional pick in a future draft - Giants could control the condition (games started perhaps?) and limit the costs to acquire if they need to.
2. IF I am correct AZ is on the hook for all of the signing bonus, the only cap space the Giants would be accountable for is remaining guaranteed dollars - looks like around $2.3MM per year for 3 years. Very reasonable risk imo and less than what a draft pick at #17 would be. Downside of course is that he would hit FA before the #17 pick would, but that is not a risk, just the absence of an advantage.
3. Given that his cap space and hit if he is cut makes him an ideal candidate to take a chance on. Picking the wrong QB puts you in QB hell, as DG so famously put it before. That's especially true when you have a lot invested in that pick. At these prices Rosen would not represent such an investment, he could easily be cut in a year and put us in place to take a QB in 2020 if we want.
4. If we truly believe in Eli, why worry about a QB controversy. This only becomes an issue if Eli's play is not up to par. In that case, why not have a starter ready behind him.
By my analysis the risk is worth the reward. It would all depend on the Giants overall grade on Rosen and the final asking price of AZ. I think there's a decent chance this gets done, especially if WAS moves up to #3 as is being rumored this morning, effectively removing them from the running for Rosen as well as removing another viable QB option for the Giants this year.
Good points Dan.
1. Draft capital spent to acquire him could be used elsewhere.
2. Cap space could be spent elsewhere
3. Investing in Rosen probably means foregoing an investment in an alternative (better) QB.
4. Potential for QB controversy should Eli struggle.
Here's my take on each of these risks.
1. There is risk in taking any prospect. Finding the next QB prospect will involve taking that risk sooner or later. No idea what the actual costs for Rosen would be - agree that AZ cannot expect a top ten draft pick, but they might hold the line on more than #37 from us. I'm not opposed to giving up #17 if the Giants have a high enough grade on Rosen but would obviously prefer to give them #37 and if needed, sweeten the deal with other picks. I really like the idea of adding a conditional pick in a future draft - Giants could control the condition (games started perhaps?) and limit the costs to acquire if they need to.
2. IF I am correct AZ is on the hook for all of the signing bonus, the only cap space the Giants would be accountable for is remaining guaranteed dollars - looks like around $2.3MM per year for 3 years. Very reasonable risk imo and less than what a draft pick at #17 would be. Downside of course is that he would hit FA before the #17 pick would, but that is not a risk, just the absence of an advantage.
3. Given that his cap space and hit if he is cut makes him an ideal candidate to take a chance on. Picking the wrong QB puts you in QB hell, as DG so famously put it before. That's especially true when you have a lot invested in that pick. At these prices Rosen would not represent such an investment, he could easily be cut in a year and put us in place to take a QB in 2020 if we want.
4. If we truly believe in Eli, why worry about a QB controversy. This only becomes an issue if Eli's play is not up to par. In that case, why not have a starter ready behind him.
By my analysis the risk is worth the reward. It would all depend on the Giants overall grade on Rosen and the final asking price of AZ. I think there's a decent chance this gets done, especially if WAS moves up to #3 as is being rumored this morning, effectively removing them from the running for Rosen as well as removing another viable QB option for the Giants this year.
Counter to your points:
1. Draft capital spent to acquire him could be used elsewhere.
Yes it can but what better gamble to take than using a 2nd round pick on a potential franchise QB that most feel are better than any QB in this years draft some of which will be selected in the top 10.
2. Cap space could be spent elsewhere
Rosen's cap hit is only $3.99 million this year. That is less than most top backups.
3. Investing in Rosen probably means foregoing an investment in an alternative (better) QB.
If they feel Rosen is better than any QB in the draft then they would be wise to roll the dice if the cost is in fact only a 2nd round pick. It also wouldn't prevent them from taking a QB next year if there is one they love and Rosen doesn't inspire confidence.
4. Potential for QB controversy should Eli struggle.
If Eli struggles shouldn't he be replaced if Rosen deserves to start?
One interesting scenario is that if the Giants are close to acquiring Rosen after they make the 6th pick they could trade down from 17 to reacquire another 2nd this year to replace the one they lost by trading for Rosen. The Beckham trade would then basically be Beckham and Vernon for Rosen, Peppers, Zeitler, a 3rd round pick, and a trade down in round 1 and 2.
No one truly knows who is right but if I'm the Giants, I wouldn't betting a high draft pick that Shonka is smarter than the Cardinals. Maybe, just maybe #37 but no higher...
This is my thought on the matter as well.
I have no idea if Rosen will turn out to be a great franchise QB, but I wouldn't say the Giants "passed on him last year".
I think it's clear they thought Barkley is a future gold jacket player and chose to pick him instead of Rosen.
Choosing to pick Barkley over Rosen at #2 is not the same as "passing on Rosen".
Disagree. I'm betting DG was hired with the thought that Eli had more left in the tank so to speak, and they weren't going QB no matter high how the QB's were rated compared to other positions.
DG made it clear he felt the #2 pick of the draft should be a pretty certain future HOFer.
Believing that Barkley is a once in a generation and more certain future HOFer is not the same as believing Rosen couldn't potentially be a really good franchise QB.
It was more that they felt they COULDN'T pass on Barkley vs. passing on Rosen.
Why do people keep saying this, its not correct. Barkley was viewed as a generational talent, and ranked higher than any other player in the draft (including QB's). His play has proved this. For all we know they had Rosen as one of the top 10 players in the draft, and a franchise guy. its just Barkley was unique.
Going by stats Darnold has a slightly better year, but a lot of that can be explained away looking at how bad Arizona was. Rosen and Allen had similar stats, which I find encouraging because Buffalo was much better than AZ, yet Rosen played as well. Overall, IMO, Rosen played pretty well considering the crap around him, have 2 OC's, and a lame duck HC.
Taking a future HOFer instead of Rosen at #2 is NOT "passing on him".
I'm betting DG was hired with the thought that Eli had more left in the tank so to speak, and they weren't going QB no matter high how the QB's were rated compared to other positions.
I tend to agree with you. The question is, did DG really believe that or was he just telling Mara what he knew Mara wanted to hear to get the job.
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last year? Asking because if Darnold were available now under circumstances similar to Rosen, this narrative would probably be different and I'm not sure why.
Going by stats Darnold has a slightly better year, but a lot of that can be explained away looking at how bad Arizona was. Rosen and Allen had similar stats, which I find encouraging because Buffalo was much better than AZ, yet Rosen played as well. Overall, IMO, Rosen played pretty well considering the crap around him, have 2 OC's, and a lame duck HC.
That's what I thought. Still intrigued by the possibility of getting Rosen at reasonable cost.