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SY'56: 2019 NFL Draft Preview - Quarterbacks

Sy'56 : 4/24/2019 8:38 am
Just so it is slightly easier to understand how I grade players. Similar to a tier system. I have had teams/services ask for more specific grades based on schemes and situations, thus these grades are more general-based.

*Grading Scale:

90+ Elite, All Pro
85-89: Immediate starter, building block for a decade, franchise player
80-84: First round talent, starter and/or majority of the snaps each week

77-79: Day 2 pick, starter within their first 16-24 games as a pro
75-76: Fourth rounder, has starter traits but needs development
71-74: Fifth/Sixth rounder, should develop in to weekly contributor over rookie contract
68-70: Draftable, hopeful for special teams impact and long term development
67 and under: UDFA

______________________________________________


QUARTERBACK



WHERE THEY STAND


NYG is in a familiar place. They are "stuck" with an aging Eli Manning at QB, a top 6 pick in the draft, and unsure if they should use that pick on one of the class' top rated signal callers or use it on a higher graded player than can help build the foundation of the current rebuild. Nobody believed this QB class was going to live up to anything special last summer and here we are days before the draft and that notion remains the same. Drafting a QB at 6 would be, by almost all accounts, a reach. But because we all value the position more than others and some believe a new, young QB alone is going to reverse the fortunes of this franchise, many want to go get our guy in round 1. I won't say it is a bad idea, but buyer beware when you shop hungry. The Giants are building a better roster and culture around their two time Super Bowl MVP quarterback and even though there is no denying he as seen better days, Manning has not fallen off a cliff. He is still a threat to win games if the supporting cast is there. Behind him, there appears to be next to nothing.


TOP 25

1: Dwayne Haskins – Ohio State – 6’3/233

Grade: 81

Summary: Fourth year junior entry that was the main guy for Ohio State for just one season, although he got his feet wet initially in 2016. Haskins played behind all-time great (collegiately) JT Barrett. While he had to wait his turn, Haskins came in prepared and took full advantage of the starting role in 2018. He threw for 50 touchdowns and nearly 5,000 yards with his best football being played down the stretch. Haskins two standout traits; accuracy and intelligence. This is a kid that truly understands concepts and understands how to react quickly, swiftly, and efficiently. When it comes to throwing the ball, he rarely misses his target when he throws from a steady position. The issue that popped consistently was a lack of carry over to being under pressure. Haskins is not a good athlete, as he plays heavy-footed and tight-hipped. The lack of fluidity below the waist is a problem and could really impede his progress in the league. He projects as a starter but the fact he started for just one year and shows mechanical problems means he needs to sit for at least a year.

*Throughout the entire pre-draft process, Haskins has always been the guy that I trust the most. Accuracy, decisions, and swagger in big situations are standout traits that I think carry over in to the NFL very well, especially a market like New York. Haskins has a few things that he really needs to clean up, however. His lower body is a mess and he didn’t respond well to productive pass rushes. I also have a few concerns with the fact that Ohio State was loaded with talent all over the place. There are also some concerns with weight management and being professional in his approach off the field. Not a troublemaker at all, but some question if he can change and lead a locker room. I thought that was notable. In the discussion at 6 I’m sure, but another one I would rather hold off on until 17.

NFL Comparison: Ben Roethlisberger / PIT



2: Daniel Jones – Duke – 6’5/221

Grade: 80

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. A three year starter and two time team captain. Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often. However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some.

*I wanted to like Jones more than this, I really did. I have a thing for tough quarterbacks and I do think he brought his teammates to another level. That’s a trend that can really make a kid break out in the NFL. While I do have a 1st round grade on him and I do think he can be in play at 17 because of the position he plays, I think NYG may need to steer clear here. Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me.

NFL Comparison: Ryan Tannheill / TEN



3: Drew Lock – Missouri – 6’3/228

Grade: 77

Summary: Three-plus year starter from the SEC that was among the conference leaders in the big passing statistics each year despite multiple schematic and coaching changes. Lock’s special arm talent earned 2nd Team All SEC honors as a senior, the first time he completed over 60% of his passes as the program introduced more pro passing concepts to the offense. The upside with him is higher than any passer in the class, as he possesses the rare ability to flick to wrist and shoot the ball out of his hand deep downfield with no wind up or warning. Lock has several plays on tape that scream top tier first round pick but the lack of consistency when it comes to accuracy and mechanics are alarming. The two are usually tied together, thus the notion that he can hide the issues with time to work on the details of the position is out there. It’s hard to imagine, however, after 1,200 passing attempts in college and seeing where he ended mechanically that all of the sudden those issues will disappear. The margin between his floor and ceiling is as wide as anyone.

*I remember watching him for the first time in the fall of 2017 and I immediately thought Matt Stafford 2.0. The release, quick and easy zip on his balls, and athletic base were attractive but I can’t get past the inconsistencies across the board. There are so many easy throws that he missed, so many times where his mechanics were a train wreck. Sure, you can say these things will change once he gets in to an NFL coaching environment but I am of the thought that after the amount of experience he’s had and the mistakes he is still making, we will see more of the same in the NFL. That, to me, is not a franchise QB.

NFL Comparison: Jay Cutler / FA




4: Kyler Murray – Oklahoma – 5’10/207

Grade: 77

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. Initially began his career at Texas A& M but transferred to the Sooners program after just one year in Aggie country. Was a two-sport athlete at Oklahoma and was actually the 9th overall pick in the 2018 MLB draft, receiving a multi million dollar contract and signing bonus from the Oakland A’s. The fall of 2018 was supposed to be a farewell-to-football tour for Murray but a Heisman and Davey O’Brien award winning, All American season caused Murray to think otherwise about his future. Ultimately he returned the money to the A’s and entered the NFL Draft, where many expect him to the top overall pick. Murray is a dynamic athlete with quick, smooth, and accurate release. His short limbs and explosive twitch give him a unique level of speed as both a rusher and passer. The height alone makes him a major risk and he doesn’t enter the league with a lot of starting expedience, either. The Murray risk that someone will take in round 1 will be the ultimate case study and a true testament to how much weight analytics can, or cannot, trump over traditional scouting. Murray is a swing for the fences by Adam Dunn, meaning he will be a major whiff or a 500-foot homerun. Nobody would be surprised by his success, nor would it be a shock if he were playing baseball within 5 years.

*I actually think my 77 grade here is generous and part of me thinks his future in the league would be brighter as a running back. His athletic ability may actually be underrated by some because so much of the discussion surrounds his height and ability to throw the ball. But guys, this dude is a legit sub 4.4 runner with outstanding vision and change of direction. Do I want that to be the main weapon as a quarterback? No way, but he is intriguing. I wouldn’t put my job on the line with him, but there is no denying the excitement he brings to the table. But there are so many question marks, big question marks, that I just couldn’t handle him being my guy. There are a few major character question marks I have here too. Let someone else take him and enjoy the show, for better or worse.

NFL Comparison: Russell Wilson / SEA




5: Ryan Finley – NC State – 6’4/213

Grade: 77

Summary: Sixth year senior. Began his career at Boise State and had a career to forget there. After his redshirt season in 2013, Finley got a few starts in 2015 before breaking his ankle, forcing him to medically redshirt. He graduates in three years, which made the process of transferring to NC State simple. The three year starter for the Wolfpack put together three straight seasons of 60+% completion percentage and a 60:25 QB:INT ratio in the Wolfpack’s pro style offense. The two time All ACC quarterback had a span of 339 passes without an interception which approached Russell Wilsons school record 379 attempts, an FBS record. Finley is a smooth and under-control signal caller that makes good decisions in all situations. His body needs some more bulk to sustain NFL-caliber hits and he may lack the upside of a true starter, but he will be in the league a long time as a solid backup at least. He lacks the pop but can make up for it with intelligence and accuracy to a point. He will get a shot at some point in his career and it wouldn’t be a surprise to see him succeed.

*Finley was my top senior prospect leading up to the 2018 season and finished #1 on #2 on that list. I trust this kid even though I will acknowledge his upside doesn’t approach the guys above. He has a lot of pro-caliber traits to his game, both on and off the field. He still has the high schooler-body and there seems to be something lacking with his twitch and explosion as a passer. He would greatly benefit from a situation like NY where he would fully take in the benefits from watching Eli Manning for a year or two while working on his strength and presence. Finley and the possibility of him being taken day 2 by NYG isn’t discussed enough, it is a real possibility.

NFL Comparison: Sam Bradford / FA






6: Jarrett Stidham – Auburn – 6’2/218

Grade: 75

Summary: Fourth year junior. Began his career at Baylor but left the school amid the school’s sexual assault scandal After skipping out on football for a year, Stidham took off once he earned the starting role at Auburn, earning SEC newcomer of the year in 2017. While he didn’t take off in year two, Stidham leaves school as a prospect that checks a lot of boxes and could have his best football ahead of him once he enters a pro offense. He throws a nice ball, plays with a good blend of athleticism and throwing ability, and is always a coach’s favorite. There seems to be a struggle when it comes to reading the entire field and making adjustments when his initial target isn’t there. Stidham will instill the belief he can be a starter in the league at moments but inconsistencies are all over the place.

*I wanted to like Stidham. I have heard great things about him from both in and out of his circle as a person and leader. You know he has the talent, as he’s been the favorite of many QB coaches and evaluators when it comes to workouts. However the tape just doesn’t match the expectations and I question if he has it. Another guy I am not touching until day 3, but I expect him to get drafted earlier.

NFL Comparison: Trevor Siemien / NYJ




7: Will Grier – West Virginia – 6’2/217

Grade: 74

Summary: Fifth year senior. The son of a coach, Grier began his career at Florida and lasted 2 years. He got on the field for 5 starts but had a couple run ins with the coaching staff and a suspension that stemmed from a performance-enhancing drug. He sat out 2016 so he could transfer to West Virginia where he started to reach the potential many saw in him as a highly touted recruit. Grier threw over 70 touchdowns and completed over 65% of his passes in the Mountaineers spread attack. The husband and father has some of the best highlight reel throws in the class but he proved to be overly dependent on space and timing. When his rhythm was thrown off and traffic approached his landing spots, Grier’s performance took a step backwards. The accuracy has been overblown, as he struggles to his points on the move. Grier still plays with a sense of entitlement via poor body language and repeatable mistakes. He projects as a backup at the next level.

*Another popular name connected to NYG if we are talking day 2 of the draft. Grier was a hot player in the fall but as the scouting process got deeper and deeper, too many boxes remained unchecked. I don’t see it with him. The arm talent is average, the dealings with pressure are average, his athleticism is average, and I don’t see a leader that elevates others. Grier has some body language issues that strengthen the notion that he is in his own world. I wouldn’t call him uncoachable by any means, but the debate is whether or not he’s worth even trying to work with is enough for me to pass on him unless we are talking day 3.

NFL Comparison: Kirk Cousins / MIN




8: Taylor Cornelius – Oklahoma State – 6’6/220

Grade: 74


Summary: Fifth year senior. The long time backup to record setting Mason Rudolph, Cornelius finally got his shot as a senior in 2018 and flashed enough to warrant day three consideration. The tall, wiry, strong armed signal caller has professional athlete bloodlines and high jump accolades dating back to high school. He is a very composed, even keel player that shows tremendous touch on his deep balls and more than enough zip throughout the intermediate route tree. A lack of experience and inconsistent accuracy are red flags, but to think of what this kid can evolve in to once in an NFL system is worth the excitement. Day three project with starter upside.

*This kid was originally a walk on at Oklahoma State and won the starting job early over Mason Rudolph. However a change of heart in the 11th hour by the coaching staff put Rudolph atop the depth chart and we know what happened there. It’s hard not to think that could have been Cornelius and after that, it’s hard not to think Cornelius may be really undervalued. He has a lot of work ahead of him but he already proved he can be persistent and he has a lot of attractive tape.

NFL Comparison: Matt Schaub / ATL



9: Tyree Jackson – Buffalo – 6’7/249

Grade: 73

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. Three year starter that missed some time in 2017 with a knee injury. The 2018 MAC Offensive Player of the Year, Jackson oozes talent and upside stemming from an enormous frame and elite-level arm. He has a knack for making the highlight reel throws on the move. The two way threat can handle a lot of contact as he plays strong and powerful. Coupling that with his big arm and the fact he is relatively raw compared to other quarterback prospects, Jackson is a day three target that teams will want to take a chance on. He has a lot to clean up when it comes to his long release and lack of lower body engagement. In addition, there will be an enormous learning curve, making Jackson a 2+ year project that teams need to be patient with.

*Those that were going gaga over Josh Allen at this time last year are going to like Jackson. He is similar in that he has a big time arm that is especially notable when he is on the move. Jackson is light years behind when it comes to reading defenses and trusting his mechanics. He is a pretty sloppy prospect that plays like he is in the school yard with a bunch of buddies. While the talent is there, it takes so much more to be a quarterback in this league and he really has a ways to do.

NFL Comparison: Paxton Lynch / SEA



10: Easton Stick – North Dakota State – 6’1/224

Grade: 72

Summary: Fifth year senior. Got his first exposure in 2015, filling in for an injured Carson Wentz, going 8-0 as the starter. As a redshirt sophomore in 2016, Stick was named a team captain. He won the national championship in 2017 and 2018, leading the way with a dual-attack approach and knack for making the big play in big moments. Stick is a little rough around the edges but he plays with swagger and grit. He has shown the ability to handle himself well against pressure, holding on to his mechanics and progressions. He will need time to adjust to the NFL but whoever gets this kid in their system will have a high upside player that has more potential than a lot, if not all of the other day 3 quarterbacks.

*Fans will like this kid a lot. He is a spark plug, an exciting, blue collar quarterback that can make a lot happen with his feet. While I do get nervous about guys that rly so much on their legs, Stick has shown enough on tape via his passing skill set to get him a backup spot somewhere in this league. I’m not sure I see a guy that will evolve enough, but having an athlete and competitor like this on the depth chart would be nice.

NFL Comparison: Drew Stanton / CLE



11: Gardner Minshew – Washington State – 6’1/225

Grade: 72

Summary: A former junior college national champion, Minshew transferred to East Carolina but never quite took grip of the full time starting gig. He did get some action via injuries to the guy in front of him and played pretty well. Washington State Head Coach and offensive guru Mike Leach took a liking to him and brought him in for a Gradate transfer year. It was the best thing that ever happened to Minshew, as he was won the Pac 12 Offensive Player of the Year award and was among the nation’s leaders in multiple passing categories. While statistics aren’t a great measureable coming from that offensive system, Minshew has something in him that is overly attractive. He has all the swagger and confidence that can make others better. Teammates and coaches at WSU loved him and I think there is a gamer in him that some don’t have. The talent is a little short, but I do think he has enough to get a shot at some point once he gets used to the NFL style.

*I would put it at under 10% odds that Minshew ends up being something in the NFL beyond a backup, but he has something that you don’t see often. The ideal blend of confidence and cockiness that doesn’t rub people the wrong way, but instead makes others better. He is the kind of guy that can make others better, plain and simple. There is a lot of contagious to him and if the talent can be enough and he works hard to clean up his game, he is the kind of backup that comes on the field halfway through a year and rejuvenates a club. Just not sure he can sustain long term success.

NFL Comparison: Case Keenum / WAS




12: Brett Rypien – Boise State – 6’2/210

Grade: 71

Summary: A four year starter and four time 1st Team All Mountain West Conference honoree. Ended his career winning the conference Player of the Year Award. Nephew to Super Bowl MVP Mark Rypien. Rypien is a statistical compiler that did nothing but produce since the moment he stepped on the field. The debate on him will center around a lack of size, arm strength, and athletic ability. Mechanically and mentally, he has it. But the ceiling on him is capped.

*A lot of college fans like this kid a lot. He does look the part when he drops back and dishes the ball out, but he had it pretty easy in the MWC. He didn’t see a lot of pressure and the system he played in doesn’t necessarily translate to the league. I like him as a smooth and dependable backup with a lot of knowledge of the game, but I wouldn’t draft him with the mindset of him ever becoming more.

NFL Comparison: Brian Hoyer / NE



13: Trace McSorley – Penn State – 6’0/204

Grade: 70

Summary: Fifth year senior and a three time team captain for the storied program. McSorley is a gamer in every definition of the word that will lead his way in to the discussion of a starting role at some point in his career. The size, arm strength, and overall style of play likely won’t fit in the league but he has made a habit out of proving people wrong. The winning attitude and approach does mean something in the grading process and while he has career backup written all over him, don’t completely count him out.

*Maybe it is the old school mentality I have, but despite the fact I have so many negatives from game notes and grades, I still consider this kid draftable late day 3. I don’t see a big time upside, but I do think he will have value in a QB room at the next level. He is a good team guy to have around and when it comes to the QB position, that is worth something. He had productive career too, so it’s not like we are talking about a stiff. He has talent, can make most of the throws too.

NFL Comparison: Taylor Heinicke / CAR



14: Clayton Thorson – Northwestern – 6’4/222

Grade: 70

Summary: Fifth year senior. Son of former Giants quarterback, Chad Thorson. Thorson tore his ACL late in 2017 but was back in time for the start of his senior year. The two time All Big 10 quarterback never had the sexy stats that some of the other prospects putout but the scheme he played in didn’t often give him the opportunity to air it out often. Thorson is a sneaky arm talent with enough foot speed to evade pressure un and out of the pocket. His experience and leadership will be a welcomed addition to any quarterback room but he won’t evolve in to a starter.

*Not much to say or see here, except I think Thorson underachieved in 2018 because of the really quick ACL recovery and a lack of talent around him in addition to poor OL play. He is a better athlete than what we saw on tape and I like the maturity level. Carries himself well and plays really smart, but there is no starter upside.

NFL Comparison: Mason Rudolph / PIT



15: Jacob Dolegala – Central Connecticut – 6’6/240

Grade: 70

Summary: A three year starter that went under-recruited out of high school because of a shoulder injury. Dolegala was a relative unknown to many throughout the fall but he was on our list last August. The tools are there but his play at a low level of college football was far from dominant. He didn’t see many complex coverages but he still seemed to struggle when it came to multiple reads and progressions. But when this kid lines everything up, he can rifle it like a pro. Underrated athlete too that can take on contact with ease. Long term project but interesting tools.

*This is the kind of kid you draft late and try to hide on the practice squad but judging the amount of eyes that were on him at his Pro Day, you may have to keep him on the 53 to avoid someone grabbing him. Anyway, this is a shot in the dark based purely on tools but there isn’t anyone down this far on the list that has what he has.

NFL Comparison: Cardale Jones / LAC



16: Jake Browning – Washington – 6’2/211: 69
17: Eric Dungey – Syracuse – 6’3/222: 69
18: David Blough – Purdue – 6’’0/205: 69
19: Nick Fitzgerald – Mississippi State – 6’5/226: 69
20: Jordan Ta’amu – Ole Miss – 6’3/221
21: Kyle Shurmur – Vanderbilt – 6’4/230: 67
22: Drew Anderson – Murray State – 6’4/220: 66
23: Justice Hansen – Arkansas State – 6’4/218: 66
24: Kyle Kempt – Iowa State – 6’5/224: 66
25: Andrew Ford – Massachusetts – 6’3/210: 65



NYG APPROACH

Let me start off by saying 2 things. One, this QB class isn’t close to what the 2018 QB class was. Two, Josh Rosen is a couple tiers above all these guys and as I said in February, I am willing to give up a 1st round pick for him if it came down to that. If WAS offered their 15th overall pick, can NYG maybe offer #6 and get back Rosen plus ARI #33 overall? I think it is a bargain to pay for a franchise QB. If you told me last year at this time that NYG could have Rosen AND Barkley AND 3 picks in the top 37 of the 2019 draft, I am not even thinking about it. That is a no brainer in my eyes.

As for this class, none of these guys should be in play at #6 in my opinion. I think Haskins and Jones stand out as the two guys I could see evolving in to “franchise QBs” in the same sentence as someone like Mitch Trubisky, but we aren’t talking elite level guys. It really depends on what you want out of drafting a first round QB. DO you want someone that is simply “good enough” or do you want a guy that is going to take over games and be THE guy for a decade-plus? With where the Giants are now, I personally prefer to use the early picks on building a better team around Eli Manning and come back to the QB situation again in a year because I think you will always be able to find QB prospects with this kind of upside that Jones, Haskins, Lock…etc.

I will be the first to tell you Manning isn’t what he was. His feet are slowing down, his reaction times are slowing down, his arm is getting weaker. But this team can still win with him at the helm just as much as you can win with a fringe-first round talent youngster. A new face isn’t always a better face, remember that. There are rd flags in each of the QB prospects in this class that could easily turn this offense in to complete mush if they took over, and that wouldn’t even be until next year. Drafting a QB this year just for the sake of it is like covering a cut with a band aid when you really need to get stitches. It is a gamble that may, in the long run, make this awful run NYG is on even worse.

I would rather not see them use another mid round pick on a QB for the 3rd year in a row hoping to get lucky. Late day 3? Sure. But in 2017 NYG picked Davis Webb, I wanted them to choose DT Montavious Adams or CB Desmond King (an all Pro). In 2018 they picked Kyle Lauletta and I wanted them to choose Tyrell Crosby, a versatile backup OL. Point is, those selections are valuable.

If NYG loves one of these kids, then go for it. But not at 6. Draft an impact guy at 6 and trade up from 17 aggressively. Perhaps that is the thought in having 2 first rounders anyway. Time will tell.
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RE: RE: There  
Giantz_comeback : 4/24/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14401199 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14401188 jtgiants said:


Quote:


Appears to be optimism josh Allen is there. If he is he's the pick



Sy's a little worried about Allen. But most people seem to love the guy.


Allen has elite coverage skill combined with tremendous pass rush talent. Perfect fit for Bettcher's D
RE: I think the Giants want someone to take Haskins  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:30 am : link
In comment 14401198 dep026 said:
Quote:
so Williams or Allen falls.

If no one takes them, I see them being happy with Oliver. But I got a feeling Oliver will be taken by Oakland if they stand pat.

I am curious to this scenario.

Arizona - Murray
SF - Bosa
Jets - Allen
Raiders - Oliver
TB - Q Williams

This is where things would suck for the Giants.


You’d have to think White, no?
Giants  
PaulN : 4/24/2019 10:30 am : link
Will pick Williams or Allen for certain, if they are gone I think it is between Oliver and Wilkens. Those are the four I have narrowed it down to.
From..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 4/24/2019 10:31 am : link
what has been alluded to regarding White is that he's not good at reading offenses and doesn't appear to pick things up quickly.

I don't think he's an option at 6 based on that feedback. Maybe 17??
jtgiants  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/24/2019 10:31 am : link
And tie that in with the HUGE contingent the Giants sent to watch Haskins at his Pro Day. Was that part of an elaborate con job? I tend to think not, but maybe the Giants have gotten sneaky. (Or maybe they hadn't made up their minds on Haskins yet).

No inside info on the next comment, but Haskins just reeks of NYG to me.
RE: RE: I think the Giants want someone to take Haskins  
dep026 : 4/24/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14401217 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14401198 dep026 said:


Quote:


so Williams or Allen falls.

If no one takes them, I see them being happy with Oliver. But I got a feeling Oliver will be taken by Oakland if they stand pat.

I am curious to this scenario.

Arizona - Murray
SF - Bosa
Jets - Allen
Raiders - Oliver
TB - Q Williams

This is where things would suck for the Giants.



You’d have to think White, no?


JT has said Giants arent sold on him. May be Wilkins? Or maybe a trade back for Cincy?
Wilkens  
PaulN : 4/24/2019 10:32 am : link
That is the pick if your feared scenario comes true.
RE: From..  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14401220 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
what has been alluded to regarding White is that he's not good at reading offenses and doesn't appear to pick things up quickly.

I don't think he's an option at 6 based on that feedback. Maybe 17??


Ahhh ok. Thx.
RE: I think the Giants want someone to take Haskins  
Giants in 07 : 4/24/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14401198 dep026 said:
Quote:
so Williams or Allen falls.

If no one takes them, I see them being happy with Oliver. But I got a feeling Oliver will be taken by Oakland if they stand pat.

I am curious to this scenario.

Arizona - Murray
SF - Bosa
Jets - Allen
Raiders - Oliver
TB - Q Williams

This is where things would suck for the Giants.


I'd hope they go Wilkins if this is the case
Grading QBs  
Archer : 4/24/2019 10:34 am : link
Based upon Sy's analysis of the top QBs this year and last year we can see the following;
Quote:

Rosen 89
Mayfield 86
Darnold 81
Haskins 81
Jackson 78
Allen 78
Lock 77
Murray 77


It would appear that a trade for Rosen would make the most sense.
I am not certain that I agree with the ratings,as I would have Murray(86) up near Mayfield.

I think that Murray will surprise and be a dynamic pro.
Eric  
jtgiants : 4/24/2019 10:35 am : link
I'll be shocked if it's Haskins but stranger things have happened
RE: jtgiants  
robbieballs2003 : 4/24/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14401221 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
And tie that in with the HUGE contingent the Giants sent to watch Haskins at his Pro Day. Was that part of an elaborate con job? I tend to think not, but maybe the Giants have gotten sneaky. (Or maybe they hadn't made up their minds on Haskins yet).

No inside info on the next comment, but Haskins just reeks of NYG to me.


What I think was telling was waiting until just a couple of days before the draft for the Giants to host Haskins. Was he the last main visit? If so, I think they are trying to start to play the game now enticing a team to tradd up in front of us to push one of the top defenders down.
RE: RE: RE: I think the Giants want someone to take Haskins  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14401222 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14401217 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 14401198 dep026 said:


Quote:


so Williams or Allen falls.

If no one takes them, I see them being happy with Oliver. But I got a feeling Oliver will be taken by Oakland if they stand pat.

I am curious to this scenario.

Arizona - Murray
SF - Bosa
Jets - Allen
Raiders - Oliver
TB - Q Williams

This is where things would suck for the Giants.



You’d have to think White, no?



JT has said Giants arent sold on him. May be Wilkins? Or maybe a trade back for Cincy?


So if White isn’t an option, I guess it’s Wilkins or your guy, Gary perhaps?
Would love Allen at #6  
PatersonPlank : 4/24/2019 10:36 am : link
IMO the people clinging to Haskins are into the conspiracy theory stuff. They aren't talking about him, so that means their picking him, scenario. I don't see it personally but what do I know
Gary is probably no longer in play  
dep026 : 4/24/2019 10:36 am : link
due to injury. I would expect WIlkins to be the pick. But I wouldnt mind trading back to Cincy for a swap of first rounders, a 3rd and their first next year.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/24/2019 10:36 am : link
I would not discount White at the #6.
Been watching a lot of Youtube of Josh Rosen with the Cards...  
M.S. : 4/24/2019 10:36 am : link

...and I'm pretty confident that he throws a better ball than Eli Manning.

Not saying is he currently as good as Eli Manning... just that the ball comes out of Rosen's hand better.

RE: Gary is probably no longer in play  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/24/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14401243 dep026 said:
Quote:
due to injury. I would expect WIlkins to be the pick. But I wouldnt mind trading back to Cincy for a swap of first rounders, a 3rd and their first next year.


I don't think Gary is in play.
RE: RE: Gary is probably no longer in play  
dep026 : 4/24/2019 10:38 am : link
In comment 14401248 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14401243 dep026 said:


Quote:


due to injury. I would expect WIlkins to be the pick. But I wouldnt mind trading back to Cincy for a swap of first rounders, a 3rd and their first next year.



I don't think Gary is in play.


What about at 17 if he slips cause of the injury.
White character issues  
jvm52106 : 4/24/2019 10:38 am : link
are from High School- arrested twice. 1) Motor vehicle operation issue and flight from an officer 2) was a sexual assault (by definition based on age) as he was 3 plus years older than 14 year old female, along with another teammate who was 3 years 10 months older. A few months older and he is looking at a felony charge.

Teams will definitely be worried about decision making of someone with that background-regardless of age then.
Character issues in 2019 draft - ( New Window )
Eric  
jtgiants : 4/24/2019 10:39 am : link
You could be right. I never said whites off the board but my source said he's not "clean" and feels we'd rather take the clean guy at 6
RE: RE: RE: Gary is probably no longer in play  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14401250 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14401248 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


In comment 14401243 dep026 said:


Quote:


due to injury. I would expect WIlkins to be the pick. But I wouldnt mind trading back to Cincy for a swap of first rounders, a 3rd and their first next year.



I don't think Gary is in play.



What about at 17 if he slips cause of the injury.


I’d pull a hammy running up with the card at 17 if he’s there.
RE: Sirius right now, a caller asked about Gmen  
Zeke's Alibi : 4/24/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14401190 jvm52106 said:
Quote:
The talk is Allen, Oliver or Williams are legit targets and shots at 6.

Diehl says he doesn't see anyway Rosen to Gmen happen. He believes Giants had Mayfield, Darnold, Allen and then Rosen.


Wow if that's true I'm pretty shocked about Mayfield being their number 1. Gives me hope on their QB evaluations.
RE: Been watching a lot of Youtube of Josh Rosen with the Cards...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/24/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14401246 M.S. said:
Quote:

...and I'm pretty confident that he throws a better ball than Eli Manning.

Not saying is he currently as good as Eli Manning... just that the ball comes out of Rosen's hand better.


The ball came off of the hands of Jeff George and Ryan Leaf too... hell, it came off the hands of Davis Webb better. I'm all for arm strength, but it's much more than that.
RE: RE: Sirius right now, a caller asked about Gmen  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:42 am : link
In comment 14401256 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14401190 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


The talk is Allen, Oliver or Williams are legit targets and shots at 6.

Diehl says he doesn't see anyway Rosen to Gmen happen. He believes Giants had Mayfield, Darnold, Allen and then Rosen.




Wow if that's true I'm pretty shocked about Mayfield being their number 1. Gives me hope on their QB evaluations.


Allen over Rosen though makes me skeptical about their evaluation. But again, this is Diehl’s speculation. I don’t think he ever asked anyone at the NYG for their 2018 QB ranking.
RE: I think the Giants want someone to take Haskins  
M.S. : 4/24/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14401198 dep026 said:
Quote:
so Williams or Allen falls.

If no one takes them, I see them being happy with Oliver. But I got a feeling Oliver will be taken by Oakland if they stand pat.

I am curious to this scenario.

Arizona - Murray
SF - Bosa
Jets - Allen
Raiders - Oliver
TB - Q Williams

This is where things would suck for the Giants.


I've got this crazy feeling that the Giants have been playing a bit of a double con game here. It goes like this:

(1) Gettleman talks up the needs on defense and the preference for big tough guys;

(2) Other teams take that as a feint and that he really wants Haskins at 6. The full court press at his workout would only seem to "reconfirm" this;

(3) Thus, maybe Gettleman forces some team to jump in front of them to snag a Haskins (or some other QB), thereby allowing Josh Allen or Quinnen Williams to fall to 6.

RE: RE: Been watching a lot of Youtube of Josh Rosen with the Cards...  
M.S. : 4/24/2019 10:46 am : link
In comment 14401261 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14401246 M.S. said:


Quote:



...and I'm pretty confident that he throws a better ball than Eli Manning.

Not saying is he currently as good as Eli Manning... just that the ball comes out of Rosen's hand better.




The ball came off of the hands of Jeff George and Ryan Leaf too... hell, it came off the hands of Davis Webb better. I'm all for arm strength, but it's much more than that.

I hear ya! And definitely YouTube ain't the greatest way to evaluate a QB!
Maybe today’s a good day to create a separate draft chatter thread  
The_Boss : 4/24/2019 10:49 am : link
Instead of blowing up Sy’s QB thread?
RE: RE: RE: Sirius right now, a caller asked about Gmen  
GothamGiants : 4/24/2019 10:50 am : link
In comment 14401263 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 14401256 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 14401190 jvm52106 said:


Quote:


The talk is Allen, Oliver or Williams are legit targets and shots at 6.

Diehl says he doesn't see anyway Rosen to Gmen happen. He believes Giants had Mayfield, Darnold, Allen and then Rosen.




Wow if that's true I'm pretty shocked about Mayfield being their number 1. Gives me hope on their QB evaluations.



Allen over Rosen though makes me skeptical about their evaluation. But again, this is Diehl’s speculation. I don’t think he ever asked anyone at the NYG for their 2018 QB ranking.


I remember seeing a lot of smoke regarding allen ... his skillset is undeniable

gives me hope they target tyree jackson in the midrounds to sit behind eli
I respect Sy  
Carl in CT : 4/24/2019 11:08 am : link
But stopped reading when I saw Daniel Jones at #2.
RE: ...  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14401245 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I would not discount White at the #6.

He's been the "solid" guy all along that probably fits right in with the #6 selection, value, and overall impact at that spot
jt  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:11 am : link
i'm a bit confused. The past few weeks you've been mocking posters for mentioning Haskins. Now that a few other asshats have said don't discount him and he's in play, you are backing off. Which is it?
RE: jt  
robbieballs2003 : 4/24/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14401343 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
i'm a bit confused. The past few weeks you've been mocking posters for mentioning Haskins. Now that a few other asshats have said don't discount him and he's in play, you are backing off. Which is it?


How has he backed off?
RE: RE: jt  
jvm52106 : 4/24/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14401352 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14401343 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


i'm a bit confused. The past few weeks you've been mocking posters for mentioning Haskins. Now that a few other asshats have said don't discount him and he's in play, you are backing off. Which is it?



How has he backed off?


Didn't he just say I do not see Haskins at all?
robbie  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:15 am : link
past few days and now it's "well, stranger things have happened" and "i could be wrong" or "interesting that other people are saying Haskins.."

when before it was "how many times do i have to say it, stop discussing it, its not happening"

As we get closer jt has been softening that stance
not trying to knock  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:16 am : link
the guy, just saying that it is odd once peppers mentioned it, jt is backing off a bit
RE: not trying to knock  
robbieballs2003 : 4/24/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14401361 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
the guy, just saying that it is odd once peppers mentioned it, jt is backing off a bit


Again, show me where he backed off.
RE: robbie  
PatersonPlank : 4/24/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14401359 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
past few days and now it's "well, stranger things have happened" and "i could be wrong" or "interesting that other people are saying Haskins.."

when before it was "how many times do i have to say it, stop discussing it, its not happening"

As we get closer jt has been softening that stance


His exact quote was "I'll be shocked if it's Haskins but stranger things have happened". He's just trying to be a nice guy, thats how I read it. Unlike other people here he's being polite.
Sy...  
bw in dc : 4/24/2019 11:19 am : link
You write about Jones:

"However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some."

This is a very harsh - I believe spot on - but yet you still give Jones a first round grade. "Constant red flags"? That's obviously more than one. And you fail to mention any plus or plus-plus ability.

So I really struggle how this comes close to a first round grade. It's actually contradictory...
alright, relax everyone  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:20 am : link
just saying its a little odd
The_Boss  
fkap : 4/24/2019 11:22 am : link
I would suspect that a guy who spent his career in the building might have some contacts.
Sorry, missed your previous post  
robbieballs2003 : 4/24/2019 11:22 am : link
I wouldn't call that backing off. He isn't hearing it from his source. Eric said he has another source so he isn't discrediting Eric's other source. Up until today I have not seen Eric mention other sources. So, it was jt's source against others just speculating. Now if the other sources are legit then I see the difference.

I will say this, jtgiants has provided much appreciated info and a lot of us have thanked him for that. I also wrote that part of the reason people are questioning him is because instead of just reporting the informatiom he is also adamantly defending the Giants process when others disagree with it. This kind of falls in that category. Sources are nice but don't know everything so we have to all understand that. The two things are separate things. There is the information that is being relayed to us and then there is the opinions that get blended together. That is where the issues are imo. Separate the two.
RE: Sy...  
dep026 : 4/24/2019 11:22 am : link
In comment 14401371 bw in dc said:
Quote:
You write about Jones:

"However, there were constant red flags in his tape that are hard to ignore. He didn’t see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles. Jones checks a lot of boxes but there is a lot of gamble in the team that takes him even though he comes across as a “safe” bet to some."

This is a very harsh - I believe spot on - but yet you still give Jones a first round grade. "Constant red flags"? That's obviously more than one. And you fail to mention any plus or plus-plus ability.

So I really struggle how this comes close to a first round grade. It's actually contradictory...


QBs are always overvalued and teams think they can coach up weaknesses.

His size and athleticism is definitely a first round grade and seems like to be a leader.
robbie  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:23 am : link
i'm also incredibly thankful for all the info but it's just that, info. nothing is set in stone. but when the asshats start going after posters for mentioning a player, it gets a little weird
Thank you, Sy'56  
islander1 : 4/24/2019 11:25 am : link
I haven't made popcorn to read through this thread yet, but seeing this kind of analysis is really awesome.

for better or worse. I never thought I'd consider being OK with Haskins again.

Honestly though, I hope we just steer clear of QB altogether if they get picked too high. Two blue chip defensive starters and a right tackle (Remmers or not) would be awesome.
jt has been preaching  
ryanmkeane : 4/24/2019 11:25 am : link
his info like gospel. i'll tip my cap if he ends up being correct
RE: robbie  
Giantz_comeback : 4/24/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14401359 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
past few days and now it's "well, stranger things have happened" and "i could be wrong" or "interesting that other people are saying Haskins.."

when before it was "how many times do i have to say it, stop discussing it, its not happening"

As we get closer jt has been softening that stance


Of all the QBs not named Murray, Haskins would be the best get. I agree with Sy that Jones mental processing scares me. Definitely don't see the Mannings ability to quickly process what's happening on the field like they do.

But a QB at 6 basically means the Giants are telling Eli this is his last year. I could be wrong but I don't see the Gmen doing that. All these guys like Brees, Roth,Brady, Rivers are still going strong and have been beat up in terms of injuries more than Eli has. I don't think they force him out the door unless they see his really losing it (and he isn't)
These are my thoughts, as well, Sy --  
GeofromNJ : 4/24/2019 11:29 am : link
Either trade for Rosen or select impact players at 6 and 17. Or, if the Giants love one of these QB's, select an impact player at 6 and trade up from 17. For my part, if Jones is not available, I would pass on a QB in round 1.
RE: jt has been preaching  
Giantz_comeback : 4/24/2019 11:31 am : link
In comment 14401392 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
his info like gospel. i'll tip my cap if he ends up being correct


If you go on 'asshatric' History alone jtgiants and hitdog are the top dogs (and JonC too).

And hitdog says his connections are not as solid as they used to be. Certainly doesnt mean hit no longer has info but perhaps not at the level as previous.

Pass rush at 6 in my mind is still the likely scenario.
Ryan  
jtgiants : 4/24/2019 11:31 am : link
I haven't backed off at all. I even said earlier I spoke to my source yesterday and he again said Haskins isn't in play at 6. Not sure how much clearer I can be for you
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