I will preface my remarks by saying I simply didn't watch Rosen play for the Cardinals last season.
But I find it absolutely stunning that someone who was considered one of the top prospects one year ago has fallen so far.
If reports are to be believed, the Cardinals may be having issues finding ANY team willing to give up a #1 pick for him.
A lot of fans say he looked bad last year because the Cards were so bad. I get that. But don't NFL teams understand that too?
What is going on here? There must be more to the story.
You slow roll this out, reel it in during the draft or hell, day 2. You let Arizona get more desperate, with less leverage.
1) Suffered two injuries in 2018 including a hand and toe injury. Injuries were already a concern with him coming out of the draft so those don't help.
2) Team loses a year of control relative to last year (4 years of control vs 5).
3) Teams are just playing hardball and waiting for Arizona to cave because it'll be messy if both Murray and Rosen are on the team.
I don't think he's good, but even I'd still roll the dice at what it looks like the price to acquire him is.
Also Cardinals have less trade leverage because there has been so much hype about them taking Murray, every team knows that they wouldn't carry both of them on the roster...
This. Kingsbury gets fired from Texas Tech, but somehow will transition into being the next offensive guru who lights up the NFL?
...painting themselves into a corner by committing to Kyler Murray early on and then finding their asking price for Josh Rosen consequently diminished.
What NFL team would give up a first rounder for Rosen when they know the Cards want to jettison him?
Physically, he showcased his deadly pocket passing when given the chance.
I can't see how anything he did last year would've negatively affected him with the experts.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Giants have a standing offer of their 2nd round pick.
HERE
Why on earth would we give up 6 or (17 + 34)?
I still think they pass on Murray and stick with Rosen.
Rosen proved a lot last year about his toughness and desire to play football.
Going to be a fun night if they Cards draft Murray or not.
2a) The Cards Oline is shit and can't possibly be rebuilt completely, while learning a new system in one offseason.
2b)With that in mind they need a VERY mobile QB to make the offense work and help make the OLine need not as big as it currently stands.
3) They can change their scheme and entire team while getting something in return for an asset they currently own. If they Draft Murray and Rosen sits a year they will be getting peanuts at best for him..
1) Suffered two injuries in 2018 including a hand and toe injury. Injuries were already a concern with him coming out of the draft so those don't help.
2) Team loses a year of control relative to last year (4 years of control vs 5).
3) Teams are just playing hardball and waiting for Arizona to cave because it'll be messy if both Murray and Rosen are on the team.
I think he also has a history of concussions although I don't think he had any last season.
They know as soon as the Cards expose their lust for Murray with pick 1, Rosen becomes a much more depreciated asset.
I think teams are willing to wait it out and toss their offers in right at or after the 1st pick.
^This. But the answer to your question to me is "nothing." Rosen played for a terrible team, with an OL worse than ours. I didn't want him at #2 last year because of injury concerns, specifically concussions. But he stayed healthy last year, and now the discussion is about pick #37.
I like him much better than any QB in this draft. Sy said he'd trade #6 for him IIRC. There is also no guarantee that we'll be able to get Herbert, Fromm, or Tua next year, and even if we can, it would be extremely expensive in terms of draft capital. Rosen costs almost no draft capital, and his contract is also extremely cheap.
I would guess to one of Giants, Dolphins, Chargers or Patriots.
1) Murray is a superior athlete, that can run and throw with anyone. He's short, but the #1 thing he has going for him is he knows the Kliff's offense already. There is absolutely no learning curve to be had there. He will be plugged in and know the offense day 1. He'll just be learning the simple nuances of Kliff's offense.
2) No team was going to trade for him before draft day. You give up way to much leverage in doing so. Now the price will drop a bit, and he will be moved if they take Murray.
I think Kingsbury really just likes Murray more for the Air Raid concepts he wants to run there and thinks he's a better fit, and they are in a position to take him if they want him - so, they're likely going to do that.
But, they know if they make it clear that they're taking Murray, Rosen's value suddenly plummets because they probably won't carry both and teams are just going to sweat them out of the office by refusing to offer a haul when they know Arizona may get into a spot where "take the best offer" is their only route.
Thus, the Bosa leaks, the nonsense that came out Sunday about them no longer taking Murray, etc.
They want teams to think they're okay with keeping Rosen even if they draft Murray so that they'll bump up their offers a bit to shake him loose. But I think teams are calling their bluff.
Just my guess.
The market clearly isn't there.
If you NEEDED a QB...like the Redskins... and you had a shot to trade for a guy who you really thought could be your franchise QB, would you nickel and dime the Cardinals?
The market clearly isn't there.
Why would any team overpay now, when they wait and pay less?
I don't discount this, but this would have to assume that Gettleman and Shurmur are good with "the guy who will be available."
For the starting QB position of the New York Giants?
Is anyone even offering a #1?
They'd have to determine that they like him more than the QB's that will be available to them in the draft, or QB's they may be interested in trading up for.
Some teams may not like that he's already a year into his contact clock or that he already took a bit of a beating behind a horrid Arizona OL.
I think given the other available options, teams are probably comfortable playing the leverage game up until the buzzer to see if Arizona blinks first.
Perhaps the thought process is more... "we really like Rosen and would like to acquire him, but we're also very comfortable making a move for (insert 2019 QB here) if the price moves into a territory where we don't like the value as much"
I don't think there's much going on behind the scenes here other than that.
Who that's involved with the Cards did you hear that from? I haven't heard anything about him being a jerk here in Phoenix.
I think we are jumping the gun a little bit here.
They pointed out the concerns related to his potentially upsetting a fan base because of his political views.
This may be overblown, but it makes sense as a possible red flag to me.
FWIW, count me in with those who think getting Rosen would be smart.
I think we are jumping the gun a little bit here.
That doesn't make sense to me. They pick #1. No one will draft Murray in front of them.
You caught the first glimpse of that last year when he was selected 10th, and not only behind Darnold, but Mayfield and Allen (the latter, a guy who most here didn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole).
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Either you move forward with the best offer weeks ago or put this to rest. Not wait until the last, best offer.
They pointed out the concerns related to his potentially upsetting a fan base because of his political views.
This may be overblown, but it makes sense as a possible red flag to me.
FWIW, count me in with those who think getting Rosen would be smart.
He's not going to Tennessee. And San Fran appears ready to take Bosa although he had expressed contrary political views.
That doesn't make sense to me either. Teams don't seem to want him.
Teams are letting AZ sweat it out because they know they can get a better deal last minute instead of over paying for someone who went top 10 the year before.
The minute they draft Murray, Rosen can be had for less. People around the league aren't dumb.
He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.
If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.
If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.
I thought this was dead on...
(2) A lot of QB needy teams with high draft picks this year drafted their QBs of the future last year and over the last few years. So, the market is smaller than it was last year. The market is basically the Giants, Redskins, Dolphins, maybe Bengals, maybe Broncos (but Elway probably wants someone with more athleticism). Neither the Bengals nor the Broncos really need a QB now though--only if they want an upgrade over established starters who have had success.
(3) A draft pick is kind of like a new car. The moment he goes off the lot, his value decreases. The reasons behind this are not entirely rational, but it's human nature. A car doesn't have any less intrinsic value 5 minutes after you bought it and drove away (unless you got into an accident), but you'd be lucky to re-sell it for half price then. The same with a player who is drafted. Many quality former first round pick players are traded a few years into their career for 3rd or 4th round picks, even though they've been starter caliber, quality players. Take Alec Ogletree, for instance. He was a first round pick, yet the Giants got him for a 4th and 6th rounder basically. He is a bit older, but is in his prime. Maybe he wasn't a high caliber first round pick, but he's better than your average 4th and 6th rounder combined.
(4) A lot of front office people and coaches in the NFL have great egos. They believe that they can draft a player, teach him, coach him, get rid of all of his flaws and make him into the perfect prospect he can be. They don't want players who are damaged by other team's teaching and coaching and systems. The same thoughts go on even in my industry and probably many others. Employers would rather hire someone who is completely raw who they can mold to their liking, rather than hiring someone with a bit of experience who may have developed habits and thought processes that you don't prefer.
While I think (1) above is probably the biggest contributor to Rosen's trade value, all four of these contribute to it, I would think. The bigger question for me is, if the Giants really did like Rosen last year, I don't know how they let him go last year. Maybe they'll luck into him this year, though I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cardinals aren't going Murray after all.
If there was a re-draft today, I'd still take Josh Rosen over Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson.
And if you don't trust my opinions on QB's because I'm just some jackass who posts here a lot, read what Sy had to say about him... maybe that will help.
I really hope NYG can land him.
Rosen is the best PASSER to come along in a while. I'd be thrilled to get him on the Giants with either 17 or preferably 37.
And it would NOT surprise me if AZ kept him and all of this Murray stuff has been to drive up the price of Murray or the 1st pick.
I don't buy the 'hardball' angle. some, yes, but not enough to cause such a precipitous drop (if such a drop occurred - we really don't know the level of interest, but it does appear low).
Either Rosen has some issues not blatantly public, or the NFL is blackballing him or AZ.
If there was a re-draft today, I'd still take Josh Rosen over Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson.
And if you don't trust my opinions on QB's because I'm just some jackass who posts here a lot, read what Sy had to say about him... maybe that will help.
I really hope NYG can land him.
Agree with this 100%
(2) A lot of QB needy teams with high draft picks this year drafted their QBs of the future last year and over the last few years. So, the market is smaller than it was last year. The market is basically the Giants, Redskins, Dolphins, maybe Bengals, maybe Broncos (but Elway probably wants someone with more athleticism). Neither the Bengals nor the Broncos really need a QB now though--only if they want an upgrade over established starters who have had success.
(3) A draft pick is kind of like a new car. The moment he goes off the lot, his value decreases. The reasons behind this are not entirely rational, but it's human nature. A car doesn't have any less intrinsic value 5 minutes after you bought it and drove away (unless you got into an accident), but you'd be lucky to re-sell it for half price then. The same with a player who is drafted. Many quality former first round pick players are traded a few years into their career for 3rd or 4th round picks, even though they've been starter caliber, quality players. Take Alec Ogletree, for instance. He was a first round pick, yet the Giants got him for a 4th and 6th rounder basically. He is a bit older, but is in his prime. Maybe he wasn't a high caliber first round pick, but he's better than your average 4th and 6th rounder combined.
(4) A lot of front office people and coaches in the NFL have great egos. They believe that they can draft a player, teach him, coach him, get rid of all of his flaws and make him into the perfect prospect he can be. They don't want players who are damaged by other team's teaching and coaching and systems. The same thoughts go on even in my industry and probably many others. Employers would rather hire someone who is completely raw who they can mold to their liking, rather than hiring someone with a bit of experience who may have developed habits and thought processes that you don't prefer.
While I think (1) above is probably the biggest contributor to Rosen's trade value, all four of these contribute to it, I would think. The bigger question for me is, if the Giants really did like Rosen last year, I don't know how they let him go last year. Maybe they'll luck into him this year, though I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cardinals aren't going Murray after all.
You could throw San Diego and New England into that market as well, but both of those teams expect to be in Super Bowl contention next year. They're not spending a first round pick on a future QB when their established QB is still playing very well and they have talent at enough positions to make a final run or two with their established QB. Adding an immediate contributor in the first round is critical for them. Maybe they'd trade a second or third for Rosen, but not a first given their situation.
and llike otehrs have said - not a whine or complaint out of the guy
One huge factor here is that he's had 5 (I believe) different offenses/play callers in the past 6 years. Or vice versa. That is insane. Give this kid some consistent coaching with a good line and running game. The red flags from last year's draft did not prevail, in fact look like strengths.
Maturity - It shows a lot about his character the way he's handled this stupidity by AZ.
Injury-prone - stayed relatively healthy getting pummeled all year.
I'm all in on bringing him aboard well over any of this year's prospects including Murray.
But I'm not reading anything persuasive here.
I've never seen a team give up on a top talent in less than a year, and I don't understand why some other team hasn't already traded for him.
I find the whole thing bizarre.
I know it's not the final result, but from what we've seen, it's not because of any sort of attitude.
But I'm not reading anything persuasive here.
I've never seen a team give up on a top talent in less than a year, and I don't understand why some other team hasn't already traded for him.
I find the whole thing bizarre.
Brett Favre the Falcon
and llike otehrs have said - not a whine or complaint out of the guy
Not only that, he also was the 1st to show up to voluntaries earlier this month. And Markus Golden tweeted the following:
Ian Rapoport
✔
@RapSheet
· Apr 8, 2019
The #AZCardinals offseason conditioning program begins today, and not only is QB Josh Rosen in the building… he was the first guy in the building for new coach Kliff Kingsbury.
Markus Golden
✔
@markusgolden
He was the first in the building as a rookie to! Great Guy and player!
The owners had their dinners with him, etc.
They may well have liked him as a QB, but Barkley had the perfect grade.
He's already had his rookie growing pains behind a crap OL.
On the Giants, he'd sit a year and learn more behind Eli.
By the time he takes over, he should be significantly better than a rookie.
He's on a rookie contract, so he's still inexpensive.
There's a lot to like from that perspective.
If there's some horror show behind the scenes, wouldn't it have come out?
The concussion thing has been WAY overblown IMO. He got hit plenty last year.
Yet everyone is jumping to spend the #6 pick on any of them. But you wouldn't spend a #37 on Rosen?
Talk about BPA....
That's just it.
We really don't know what teams are thinking. This year as much or more than any in memory.
I think teams ARE interested in him, and I think the Giants are one of them. I think Gettleman wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't have at least as ONE of his possible scenarios, a run at Rosen if/when the time came. Things just have to fall a certain way. So many moving parts this year. Kinda crazy, really.
Fun!
New coaches often want "their guy"... Rosen isn't that for Kingsbury. He's a guy from a regime that lasted one year and got fired.
They're in a position where they can get Kingsbury the QB he's long-coveted, recoup as much value as possible for Rosen and move on.
I don't think that's far-fetched.
How many teams are legitimately interested in Rosen right now? 3 or 4? Maybe they're just content with the alternative QB options available to them if Arizona won't bite on their offer for Rosen.
Have to remember that the team making the offer is getting a QB who already has 1 year of his rookie contract burned - and that's half the appeal. The contract. He's also, like I said before, taken a bit of a beating.
So, you'd be paying sticker price on a car that has been taken off the lot for a few test drives already...
I wouldn't want to do that. Would you?
No disrespect intended for guys here sharing their opinions or wants, but all I care about is reading the words of the EXPERTS. if they say he can be a stud, I’m all in. If they say there are too many question marks, I’m all out.
Lastly, how does he compare with the top 5 QBs coming out this year? That is equally as important. What do the EXPERTS say about that?
The owners had their dinners with him, etc.
They may well have liked him as a QB, but Barkley had the perfect grade.
He's already had his rookie growing pains behind a crap OL.
On the Giants, he'd sit a year and learn more behind Eli.
By the time he takes over, he should be significantly better than a rookie.
He's on a rookie contract, so he's still inexpensive.
There's a lot to like from that perspective.
If there's some horror show behind the scenes, wouldn't it have come out?
The concussion thing has been WAY overblown IMO. He got hit plenty last year.
And yet have the Giants even offered their #17 pick for him? If they haven't, what does that say?
Sure, it drops the second they make that pick, BUT ... there might be something to the "in the moment" emotional perception of making that trade during the draft that makes the Arizona front office want to hold off on surprising no one with the Murray pick.
Hope that makes sense. At least as I intend it.
And yet have the Giants even offered their #17 pick for him? If they haven't, what does that say?
That they are waiting until they have selected Murray. It may also mean they just dont see him here.
I want Rosen here and have since the speculation began but I will admit that he doesnt seem like a DG type of QB. I trust JonC and jtgiants info.
and his rookie year was a booze filled shit show in which he only threw 4 passes
I can't think of a QB whose personality is a better fit for the NY market. The medical concerns in the family is something else. But that seems purely speculative
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got outsmarted, called out and now are being punished and made fools of.
That doesn't make sense to me either. Teams don't seem to want him.
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Favre was a second round draft pick.
and his rookie year was a booze filled shit show in which he only threw 4 passes
And Green Bay gave Atlanta the #19 pick for him a year later.
Terrible coaching. Their play calling was horrible.
He didn't always scan the field and he has a tendency to be REALLY late getting the ball out. I think that's the biggest issue. His process is slow and I think that gets solved by backing up a veteran for a season or two. He has all the tools besides that.
I like him over most of the QBs in this draft who are mostly projects that aren't Day 1 starters. IMO
Terrible coaching. Their play calling was horrible.
He didn't always scan the field and he has a tendency to be REALLY late getting the ball out. I think that's the biggest issue. His process is slow and I think that gets solved by backing up a veteran for a season or two. He has all the tools besides that.
I like him over most of the QBs in this draft who are mostly projects that aren't Day 1 starters. IMO
NFL teams know all of that.
Maturity? He has handled the Cardinal's flirtation with Murray with absolute class. How do you think Mayfield or Darnold would be handling this shit? Not any better, that is for sure. Durability, he got killed and kept trucking. Next year our high draft capital will build the team. It is a huge advantage if we can get this guy on the cheap. He will better than Jones. Bank on that.
the NFL doesnt love Josh Rosen as much as BBI does.
^^^^^^^^^
This.
Fans say that NYG didn't "pass" on Rosen because the Giants liked Barkley so much better. OK, maybe. But NYJ passed on him for Darnold and Buffalo passed on him for Allen, and if Ariz (who now wants to unload him after 1 yr) hadn't taken him at #10, he would have slid all the way to Balt at the end of the 1st round and maybe even out of it.
But I'm not reading anything persuasive here.
I've never seen a team give up on a top talent in less than a year, and I don't understand why some other team hasn't already traded for him.
I find the whole thing bizarre.
1. Murray is a superior prospect to Rosen and a potentially transformative player. Does not need to be more persuasive than that.
2a. They’ll find a buyer when the dust settles — many teams in the QB market might prefer to pursue the rookies before returning to Rosen
2b. As a top-10 pick, Rosen’s 5th year option would be ~$20M whereas a QB picked outside the top-10 would cost ~$13-14M
3. There’s obvious encouragement from the NFL to create theater with the 1st pick, hence the recent (false) reports that the Cards would keep Rosen
This is clearly the answer.
But I have a hunch the slow down here for any deal is, ironically, Kingsbury. From what I've seen and heard, Rosen has come to these voluntary activities in great shape; and he is moving and throwing better than ever. So I think Kingsbury is really torn...
He may have the QB he needs already on the roster after all. So perhaps they need to start building the team around Rosen...
Who knows if they have or haven't?
Maybe they HAVE and AZ hasn't bit yet?
If any of this Rosen stuff has legs, DG likes Rosen at a certain price, and AZ is trying to get the most they can. They wouldn't be finalizing it until the draft begins. Perhaps DG would come up to 17 but didn't start there. Or perhaps DG gave AZ a standing offer for Rosen, and AZ is waiting to see if anyone beats it. WHO KNOWS?
We didn't get details of Accorsi's side of the Eli trade until a few years later.
Living in the LA area, I read tons of stuff about him, including many inquiries into the national media's slam of his personality and the local LA refutation of those digs.
The one issue that seemed to have some real traction was how coachable he is/was, not because he's stupid or uncaring, but because he's "the smartest guy in the room". Heck under the coaches he had at UCLA, that might have been true both ways.
And it might have again been true last year in Arizona. I mean, clearly the FO didn't think much of their own coaching staff last year - they fired them after ONE SEASON!
But the attitude of a player thinking he's the smartest guy in the room doesn't sail in the NFL, unless you've got serious skins on the wall, like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers.
Could that be it? It sure isn't the dude's ability to toss the rock.
Eric's question is a good one and this is the most sensible answer.
Living in the LA area, I read tons of stuff about him, including many inquiries into the national media's slam of his personality and the local LA refutation of those digs.
The one issue that seemed to have some real traction was how coachable he is/was, not because he's stupid or uncaring, but because he's "the smartest guy in the room". Heck under the coaches he had at UCLA, that might have been true both ways.
And it might have again been true last year in Arizona. I mean, clearly the FO didn't think much of their own coaching staff last year - they fired them after ONE SEASON!
But the attitude of a player thinking he's the smartest guy in the room doesn't sail in the NFL, unless you've got serious skins on the wall, like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers.
Could that be it? It sure isn't the dude's ability to toss the rock.
Good post. Totally agree.
And Rosen knows the sun rises in the east and sets in the west... ;)
What does that have to do with any of the questions I've raised?
...and no one is letting the cat out of the bag.
Why haven't you been banned yet?
...and no one is letting the cat out of the bag.
This, I bet he was traded to some team weeks ago with a stipulation that he has to be A.) healthy on the actual transaction day (likely tonight), and B.) the deal can’t be announced until after the start of round 1. The NFL wants as much excitement for the prime time round 1 as possible.
Patrick Mahome is now the prototype QB of the future a QB . that can cover up defects in your OL and that can make your team win much sooner than later all in his second year!
Now every losing teams wants their own Patrick Mahomes - Kyler Murray is this year's Patrick Mahomes
Patrick Mahome is now the prototype QB of the future a QB . that can cover up defects in your OL and that can make your team win much sooner than later all in his second year!
Now every losing teams wants their own Patrick Mahomes - Kyler Murray is this year's Patrick Mahomes
I'm sorry but your answer doesn't make any sense from the perspective on why other teams are not trying to trade for him and are considering drafting Haskins, Jones, and others.
Living in the LA area, I read tons of stuff about him, including many inquiries into the national media's slam of his personality and the local LA refutation of those digs.
The one issue that seemed to have some real traction was how coachable he is/was, not because he's stupid or uncaring, but because he's "the smartest guy in the room". Heck under the coaches he had at UCLA, that might have been true both ways.
And it might have again been true last year in Arizona. I mean, clearly the FO didn't think much of their own coaching staff last year - they fired them after ONE SEASON!
But the attitude of a player thinking he's the smartest guy in the room doesn't sail in the NFL, unless you've got serious skins on the wall, like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers.
Could that be it? It sure isn't the dude's ability to toss the rock.
+1
I agree with everyone who says if we give Eli decent protection a running game and competent wide receivers he will have a good season.I think if you give the same thing to Rosen, he is capable of Tom Brady Aaron Rodgers Drew Brees numbers. Smart and talented people sometimes rub people the wrong way.
Anyway that's what I see. I guarantee that if he gets put into a situation where he has time to survey the field and throw the ball, Rosen will be a top 5 in the NFL QB. That's why I keep posting about him. If we get Rosen and Barkley, I am thinking super bowls. Rosen is smart and he will exploit Barkleys greatness in the passing game.Rosen throws with touch and anticipation that is the key to Shurmur's offense for yards after the catch. It is a dream matchup.
Oops, sorry wrong thread.
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It’s really nothing more than that.
This. Kingsbury gets fired from Texas Tech, but somehow will transition into being the next offensive guru who lights up the NFL?
Agree. They hire/fire Wilks, change out OCs, then make a head-scratching move of hiring a losing college coach in Kingsbury. Rosen played with the worst or among the few worst O-lines in the league. His stats aren't mucch different than golden-boy Darnold. Meanwhile, his teammates speak highly of him and his attitude and work ethic. Sounds like organizational malfeasance more than the player.
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The Giants did extensive homework on Rosen last year.
The owners had their dinners with him, etc.
They may well have liked him as a QB, but Barkley had the perfect grade.
He's already had his rookie growing pains behind a crap OL.
On the Giants, he'd sit a year and learn more behind Eli.
By the time he takes over, he should be significantly better than a rookie.
He's on a rookie contract, so he's still inexpensive.
There's a lot to like from that perspective.
If there's some horror show behind the scenes, wouldn't it have come out?
The concussion thing has been WAY overblown IMO. He got hit plenty last year.
And yet have the Giants even offered their #17 pick for him? If they haven't, what does that say?
Maybe it says the priority is to fix the defense with 6 and 17. They're OK with going with Eli this year. And maybe they think they can get Rosen for a second or maybe less (if they are inerested at all).
And it wouldn't shock me if the Pats jump in and make the trade with #32.