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Rosen: What the hell has changed in one year?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:08 pm
I will preface my remarks by saying I simply didn't watch Rosen play for the Cardinals last season.

But I find it absolutely stunning that someone who was considered one of the top prospects one year ago has fallen so far.

If reports are to be believed, the Cardinals may be having issues finding ANY team willing to give up a #1 pick for him.

A lot of fans say he looked bad last year because the Cards were so bad. I get that. But don't NFL teams understand that too?

What is going on here? There must be more to the story.
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teams  
ryanmkeane : 4/25/2019 1:09 pm : link
want to see how it shakes out before offering anything.
I was of the same opinion  
UConn4523 : 4/25/2019 1:09 pm : link
just liking Murray more isn't a good enough reason for me. The offensive scheme change also isn't a good enough reason for me.
nothing wrong  
BillyM : 4/25/2019 1:10 pm : link
it's a poker hand. You don't just throw all the chips in the middle if you have leverage.

You slow roll this out, reel it in during the draft or hell, day 2. You let Arizona get more desperate, with less leverage.

It’s because AZ is run by complete idiots.  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/25/2019 1:11 pm : link
It’s really nothing more than that.
I wouldnt be shocked if they kept Rosen  
Capt. Don : 4/25/2019 1:11 pm : link
and took the best defensive player at this point.
Eric  
MadPlaid : 4/25/2019 1:12 pm : link
it could also be that the Cardinals have very little leverage when it comes to trading him. If they want Murray or take him, then they are going to have to trade Rosen. Well, the other teams don't have to have him. They can wait the Cards out, and get a more reasonable rate. It will be a buyer's market.
Was thinking about this  
kash94 : 4/25/2019 1:12 pm : link
just throwing out some random guesses (I'm in on trading for Rosen and getting aggressive for the record):

1) Suffered two injuries in 2018 including a hand and toe injury. Injuries were already a concern with him coming out of the draft so those don't help.

2) Team loses a year of control relative to last year (4 years of control vs 5).

3) Teams are just playing hardball and waiting for Arizona to cave because it'll be messy if both Murray and Rosen are on the team.
Case against him  
oreojenkins : 4/25/2019 1:12 pm : link
Would be he was still terrible when kept clean and when throwing to open receivers. Doesn't mean he can't improve, it's only his first year after all. Just not a great start. Certainly can't look at his overall numbers and blame it all on him, but you'd hope he'd be a little better when nothing actually broke down.

I don't think he's good, but even I'd still roll the dice at what it looks like the price to acquire him is.
Isn't part of his value dropping  
Anando : 4/25/2019 1:13 pm : link
Is that any new prospective team has lost a year of his rookie contract?

Also Cardinals have less trade leverage because there has been so much hype about them taking Murray, every team knows that they wouldn't carry both of them on the roster...
Teams know Cards will have to deal him  
jeff57 : 4/25/2019 1:13 pm : link
if they take Murray. So his trade value plummets.
Have a feeling the Dolphins get a deal done before 8 pm  
Eli2020 : 4/25/2019 1:13 pm : link
By trading a bunch a picks.
RE: It’s because AZ is run by complete idiots.  
figgy2989 : 4/25/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14404676 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
It’s really nothing more than that.


This. Kingsbury gets fired from Texas Tech, but somehow will transition into being the next offensive guru who lights up the NFL?
Maybe it boils down to the Cards...  
M.S. : 4/25/2019 1:14 pm : link

...painting themselves into a corner by committing to Kyler Murray early on and then finding their asking price for Josh Rosen consequently diminished.

What NFL team would give up a first rounder for Rosen when they know the Cards want to jettison him?
salary cap  
Hilary : 4/25/2019 1:15 pm : link
There will be many teams that want Rosen. I cannot imagine that he is not the best or one of the 3 best QB available tonight. Having control of his salary for 5 years is much better than 4 or in the case of a team like the Giants, Patriots, Saints,Chargers 3 years playing before free agency eligible. I will not be shocked if the giants give up 6 or 17 for Rosen and a 2 or Rosen and a 2 and 3. No guts no glory
And he didn't even look *bad* either.  
mittenedman : 4/25/2019 1:15 pm : link
If you adjust for what was going on around him he was impressive in the non-quantifiable areas (toughness, leadership).

Physically, he showcased his deadly pocket passing when given the chance.

I can't see how anything he did last year would've negatively affected him with the experts.
Eric ... great question.  
Spider56 : 4/25/2019 1:15 pm : link
I watched his Cardinal hilite tape that was posted yesterday and he looked very good ... especially since this was against established nfl talent, not a bunch of college level wannabes ... I hope DG pulls the trigger and gets him ... let him sit for a year behind Eli and we’ll be set for the next 10.
Sorry, didn’t read your full post  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/25/2019 1:16 pm : link
I think teams are sweating out the Cardinals. The price for Rosen will continually drop as the draft gets closer because AZ will be desperate to get anything in return. Teams know that and are waiting.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Giants have a standing offer of their 2nd round pick.
I asked this same question on 4/18  
LC_21 : 4/25/2019 1:16 pm : link
no one that responded on that thread had any really insight on this .. Its beyond perplexing... Im w ya Eric


HERE

RE: salary cap  
UConn4523 : 4/25/2019 1:17 pm : link
In comment 14404690 Hilary said:
Quote:
There will be many teams that want Rosen. I cannot imagine that he is not the best or one of the 3 best QB available tonight. Having control of his salary for 5 years is much better than 4 or in the case of a team like the Giants, Patriots, Saints,Chargers 3 years playing before free agency eligible. I will not be shocked if the giants give up 6 or 17 for Rosen and a 2 or Rosen and a 2 and 3. No guts no glory


Why on earth would we give up 6 or (17 + 34)?
I think its less about Rosen  
larryflower37 : 4/25/2019 1:17 pm : link
and more about the Cards painting themselves into a corner.

I still think they pass on Murray and stick with Rosen.

Rosen proved a lot last year about his toughness and desire to play football.
Going to be a fun night if they Cards draft Murray or not.
Rosen's entire OL went down with injuries  
jeff57 : 4/25/2019 1:17 pm : link
Then his favorite target, Christian Kirk, got hurt as well.
Here are my thoughts:  
jvm52106 : 4/25/2019 1:17 pm : link
1) Cards management made a coaching mistake and hired their new coach with the understanding his offense will work best with Murray.
2a) The Cards Oline is shit and can't possibly be rebuilt completely, while learning a new system in one offseason.
2b)With that in mind they need a VERY mobile QB to make the offense work and help make the OLine need not as big as it currently stands.
3) They can change their scheme and entire team while getting something in return for an asset they currently own. If they Draft Murray and Rosen sits a year they will be getting peanuts at best for him..
Everyone forgets the “jerk” factor  
OBJ_AllDay : 4/25/2019 1:18 pm : link
This guy isn’t really well liked it seems. I remember a few of the soft spoken qbs taken in his draft class speaking out on his social media leading up to the draft. His smugness showed when he started sliding. I think the NY media would eat this kid alive when things aren’t going good. He just seems like a jerk.
RE: Was thinking about this  
Steve in ATL : 4/25/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14404682 kash94 said:
Quote:
just throwing out some random guesses (I'm in on trading for Rosen and getting aggressive for the record):

1) Suffered two injuries in 2018 including a hand and toe injury. Injuries were already a concern with him coming out of the draft so those don't help.

2) Team loses a year of control relative to last year (4 years of control vs 5).

3) Teams are just playing hardball and waiting for Arizona to cave because it'll be messy if both Murray and Rosen are on the team.


I think he also has a history of concussions although I don't think he had any last season.
Nothing  
GiantTuff1 : 4/25/2019 1:19 pm : link
Nobody gains anything by trading with the Cardinals prior to the draft.

They know as soon as the Cards expose their lust for Murray with pick 1, Rosen becomes a much more depreciated asset.

I think teams are willing to wait it out and toss their offers in right at or after the 1st pick.
RE: Teams know Cards will have to deal him  
AcidTest : 4/25/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14404686 jeff57 said:
Quote:
if they take Murray. So his trade value plummets.


^This. But the answer to your question to me is "nothing." Rosen played for a terrible team, with an OL worse than ours. I didn't want him at #2 last year because of injury concerns, specifically concussions. But he stayed healthy last year, and now the discussion is about pick #37.

I like him much better than any QB in this draft. Sy said he'd trade #6 for him IIRC. There is also no guarantee that we'll be able to get Herbert, Fromm, or Tua next year, and even if we can, it would be extremely expensive in terms of draft capital. Rosen costs almost no draft capital, and his contract is also extremely cheap.
I don't think it's more than a) the Cards are terrible at poker  
Heisenberg : 4/25/2019 1:19 pm : link
so they killed his value and b) there's only a handful of teams that need a QB and there's some available in the draft. That handful of GMs aren't gonna fall all over themselves to get Rosen who is also not a perfect prospect.
I think Rosen is dealt either tonight during round 1  
Chris684 : 4/25/2019 1:20 pm : link
or tomorrow before round 2.

I would guess to one of Giants, Dolphins, Chargers or Patriots.
I think that it's part  
darren in pdx : 4/25/2019 1:20 pm : link
the fact that if Arizona takes Murray they have pretty much no leverage, and part that teams were probably not too impressed by his tape last year. I haven't watched him play at all last year so I have no opinion on him good or bad. But if the team likes what they saw from his tape, then a 3rd rounder and a tiny contract sounds like a good gamble.
Two things  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 4/25/2019 1:20 pm : link
this has less to do with Rosen and more to do with Murray.

1) Murray is a superior athlete, that can run and throw with anyone. He's short, but the #1 thing he has going for him is he knows the Kliff's offense already. There is absolutely no learning curve to be had there. He will be plugged in and know the offense day 1. He'll just be learning the simple nuances of Kliff's offense.

2) No team was going to trade for him before draft day. You give up way to much leverage in doing so. Now the price will drop a bit, and he will be moved if they take Murray.
Let's not forget that he fell a little last year, too.  
Klaatu : 4/25/2019 1:21 pm : link
Not far...just to #10...but still the 4th QB taken, and he was pretty vocal about how he felt about that.
Rosen is still the best value  
Since1965 : 4/25/2019 1:22 pm : link
and probably better than any of the QB's in this draft. If the Giants are thinking about pulling the trigger on Jones with 17, wouldn't Rosen make more sense? They shouldn't be cute with this - just go get him rather than wait and see. The Giants are in a spot too.....desperately needing a QB.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/25/2019 1:22 pm : link
I honestly think it's just a waiting game and a leverage situation.

I think Kingsbury really just likes Murray more for the Air Raid concepts he wants to run there and thinks he's a better fit, and they are in a position to take him if they want him - so, they're likely going to do that.

But, they know if they make it clear that they're taking Murray, Rosen's value suddenly plummets because they probably won't carry both and teams are just going to sweat them out of the office by refusing to offer a haul when they know Arizona may get into a spot where "take the best offer" is their only route.

Thus, the Bosa leaks, the nonsense that came out Sunday about them no longer taking Murray, etc.

They want teams to think they're okay with keeping Rosen even if they draft Murray so that they'll bump up their offers a bit to shake him loose. But I think teams are calling their bluff.

Just my guess.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:24 pm : link
I don't buy that teams are playing hardball here. All it takes is ONE team to offer Arizona a decent deal and he is gone.

The market clearly isn't there.
It not Rosen it's the market  
BillT : 4/25/2019 1:24 pm : link
Folks smell blood in the water and know they can get him for a huge discount. That's what happens when you change horses in mid stream
I have always believed  
Jay on the Island : 4/25/2019 1:26 pm : link
that if the Giants were going to trade for Rosen it would occur either after the 17th pick or after day 1 is completed. It's entirely possible that the Giants also like Lock and Jones and want to see if they fall to 17. If they don't then their backup plan very well could be a trade for Rosen. I do believe jtgiants though but this is just my thought if Gettleman was playing it very close to the vest. Gettleman could be waiting for the Cards to draft Murray and then call the Giants to see if they're interested in Rosen. Gettleman did say that you should never make the first call.
RE: It not Rosen it's the market  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14404743 BillT said:
Quote:
Folks smell blood in the water and know they can get him for a huge discount. That's what happens when you change horses in mid stream


If you NEEDED a QB...like the Redskins... and you had a shot to trade for a guy who you really thought could be your franchise QB, would you nickel and dime the Cardinals?
RE: ...  
jeff57 : 4/25/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14404742 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I don't buy that teams are playing hardball here. All it takes is ONE team to offer Arizona a decent deal and he is gone.

The market clearly isn't there.


Why would any team overpay now, when they wait and pay less?
AZ  
Csonka : 4/25/2019 1:27 pm : link
I think they thought they'd maximize trade-down value by saying they were taking Murray, but it didn't happen.
RE: I have always believed  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14404749 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
that if the Giants were going to trade for Rosen it would occur either after the 17th pick or after day 1 is completed. It's entirely possible that the Giants also like Lock and Jones and want to see if they fall to 17. If they don't then their backup plan very well could be a trade for Rosen. I do believe jtgiants though but this is just my thought if Gettleman was playing it very close to the vest. Gettleman could be waiting for the Cards to draft Murray and then call the Giants to see if they're interested in Rosen. Gettleman did say that you should never make the first call.


I don't discount this, but this would have to assume that Gettleman and Shurmur are good with "the guy who will be available."

For the starting QB position of the New York Giants?
jeff57  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:28 pm : link
Because you risk losing him to another team. Pretty simple.

Is anyone even offering a #1?
.  
arcarsenal : 4/25/2019 1:29 pm : link
Well, first you have to realize that there aren't going to be that many teams in on Rosen.

They'd have to determine that they like him more than the QB's that will be available to them in the draft, or QB's they may be interested in trading up for.

Some teams may not like that he's already a year into his contact clock or that he already took a bit of a beating behind a horrid Arizona OL.

I think given the other available options, teams are probably comfortable playing the leverage game up until the buzzer to see if Arizona blinks first.

Perhaps the thought process is more... "we really like Rosen and would like to acquire him, but we're also very comfortable making a move for (insert 2019 QB here) if the price moves into a territory where we don't like the value as much"

I don't think there's much going on behind the scenes here other than that.
RE: Everyone forgets the “jerk” factor  
Bill in UT : 4/25/2019 1:31 pm : link
In comment 14404706 OBJ_AllDay said:
Quote:
This guy isn’t really well liked it seems. I remember a few of the soft spoken qbs taken in his draft class speaking out on his social media leading up to the draft. His smugness showed when he started sliding. I think the NY media would eat this kid alive when things aren’t going good. He just seems like a jerk.


Who that's involved with the Cards did you hear that from? I haven't heard anything about him being a jerk here in Phoenix.
Because it's the lying season...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/25/2019 1:31 pm : link
we'll know soon enough what the market is for Rosen, but nobody showing interest =/= no interest right now.
I also believe the NFL  
jvm52106 : 4/25/2019 1:31 pm : link
wants the drama of who is being picked and then the drama of the trade. If Rosen is traded the drama is gone at pick 1 and the team trading for him is now not picking a QB for sure, so more drama gone..
There has to be more to this. What is wrong with Rosen, AZ traded  
SterlingArcher : 4/25/2019 1:32 pm : link
up to get this guy and after 1 year he is a bust? Does AZ think they have a better chance to win another qb other than Rosen? Who thinks trading for Rosen is the Giants best chance to win?
Eric  
ryanmkeane : 4/25/2019 1:32 pm : link
Cardinals need to take Murray first. Once that happens, the trade for Rosen will happen.

I think we are jumping the gun a little bit here.
The one red flag that makes the most sense to me...  
Dan in the Springs : 4/25/2019 1:33 pm : link
was given by a poster a few weeks back - sorry I can't attribute it to them because I don't remember who it was.

They pointed out the concerns related to his potentially upsetting a fan base because of his political views.

This may be overblown, but it makes sense as a possible red flag to me.

FWIW, count me in with those who think getting Rosen would be smart.
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 4/25/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14404772 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
Cardinals need to take Murray first. Once that happens, the trade for Rosen will happen.

I think we are jumping the gun a little bit here.


That doesn't make sense to me. They pick #1. No one will draft Murray in front of them.
Bunch of cement heads in the AZ front office.....  
MOOPS : 4/25/2019 1:33 pm : link
got outsmarted, called out and now are being punished and made fools of.
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