I will preface my remarks by saying I simply didn't watch Rosen play for the Cardinals last season.
But I find it absolutely stunning that someone who was considered one of the top prospects one year ago has fallen so far.
If reports are to be believed, the Cardinals may be having issues finding ANY team willing to give up a #1 pick for him.
A lot of fans say he looked bad last year because the Cards were so bad. I get that. But don't NFL teams understand that too?
What is going on here? There must be more to the story.
You caught the first glimpse of that last year when he was selected 10th, and not only behind Darnold, but Mayfield and Allen (the latter, a guy who most here didn't want to touch with a 10 foot pole).
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Either you move forward with the best offer weeks ago or put this to rest. Not wait until the last, best offer.
They pointed out the concerns related to his potentially upsetting a fan base because of his political views.
This may be overblown, but it makes sense as a possible red flag to me.
FWIW, count me in with those who think getting Rosen would be smart.
He's not going to Tennessee. And San Fran appears ready to take Bosa although he had expressed contrary political views.
That doesn't make sense to me either. Teams don't seem to want him.
Teams are letting AZ sweat it out because they know they can get a better deal last minute instead of over paying for someone who went top 10 the year before.
The minute they draft Murray, Rosen can be had for less. People around the league aren't dumb.
He has the worst supporting cast in football, more specifically the offensive line.He showed toughness and grit and stayed focused and driven despite the crappy situation....those were the 2 red flags from the media at this time last year.
If you made a cut up of the top 100 throws in the NFL last year, Rosen has at least 5 of them. He fit some balls in to windows that very few guys can. His mechanics stayed clean, he tried to stand tall against pressure even when everyone knew the rush was gonna reach him within 3 seconds.
If Rosen was on CLE last year, he outplays Mayfield in my opinion.
I thought this was dead on...
(2) A lot of QB needy teams with high draft picks this year drafted their QBs of the future last year and over the last few years. So, the market is smaller than it was last year. The market is basically the Giants, Redskins, Dolphins, maybe Bengals, maybe Broncos (but Elway probably wants someone with more athleticism). Neither the Bengals nor the Broncos really need a QB now though--only if they want an upgrade over established starters who have had success.
(3) A draft pick is kind of like a new car. The moment he goes off the lot, his value decreases. The reasons behind this are not entirely rational, but it's human nature. A car doesn't have any less intrinsic value 5 minutes after you bought it and drove away (unless you got into an accident), but you'd be lucky to re-sell it for half price then. The same with a player who is drafted. Many quality former first round pick players are traded a few years into their career for 3rd or 4th round picks, even though they've been starter caliber, quality players. Take Alec Ogletree, for instance. He was a first round pick, yet the Giants got him for a 4th and 6th rounder basically. He is a bit older, but is in his prime. Maybe he wasn't a high caliber first round pick, but he's better than your average 4th and 6th rounder combined.
(4) A lot of front office people and coaches in the NFL have great egos. They believe that they can draft a player, teach him, coach him, get rid of all of his flaws and make him into the perfect prospect he can be. They don't want players who are damaged by other team's teaching and coaching and systems. The same thoughts go on even in my industry and probably many others. Employers would rather hire someone who is completely raw who they can mold to their liking, rather than hiring someone with a bit of experience who may have developed habits and thought processes that you don't prefer.
While I think (1) above is probably the biggest contributor to Rosen's trade value, all four of these contribute to it, I would think. The bigger question for me is, if the Giants really did like Rosen last year, I don't know how they let him go last year. Maybe they'll luck into him this year, though I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cardinals aren't going Murray after all.
If there was a re-draft today, I'd still take Josh Rosen over Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson.
And if you don't trust my opinions on QB's because I'm just some jackass who posts here a lot, read what Sy had to say about him... maybe that will help.
I really hope NYG can land him.
Rosen is the best PASSER to come along in a while. I'd be thrilled to get him on the Giants with either 17 or preferably 37.
And it would NOT surprise me if AZ kept him and all of this Murray stuff has been to drive up the price of Murray or the 1st pick.
I don't buy the 'hardball' angle. some, yes, but not enough to cause such a precipitous drop (if such a drop occurred - we really don't know the level of interest, but it does appear low).
Either Rosen has some issues not blatantly public, or the NFL is blackballing him or AZ.
If there was a re-draft today, I'd still take Josh Rosen over Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, and Lamar Jackson.
And if you don't trust my opinions on QB's because I'm just some jackass who posts here a lot, read what Sy had to say about him... maybe that will help.
I really hope NYG can land him.
Agree with this 100%
(2) A lot of QB needy teams with high draft picks this year drafted their QBs of the future last year and over the last few years. So, the market is smaller than it was last year. The market is basically the Giants, Redskins, Dolphins, maybe Bengals, maybe Broncos (but Elway probably wants someone with more athleticism). Neither the Bengals nor the Broncos really need a QB now though--only if they want an upgrade over established starters who have had success.
(3) A draft pick is kind of like a new car. The moment he goes off the lot, his value decreases. The reasons behind this are not entirely rational, but it's human nature. A car doesn't have any less intrinsic value 5 minutes after you bought it and drove away (unless you got into an accident), but you'd be lucky to re-sell it for half price then. The same with a player who is drafted. Many quality former first round pick players are traded a few years into their career for 3rd or 4th round picks, even though they've been starter caliber, quality players. Take Alec Ogletree, for instance. He was a first round pick, yet the Giants got him for a 4th and 6th rounder basically. He is a bit older, but is in his prime. Maybe he wasn't a high caliber first round pick, but he's better than your average 4th and 6th rounder combined.
(4) A lot of front office people and coaches in the NFL have great egos. They believe that they can draft a player, teach him, coach him, get rid of all of his flaws and make him into the perfect prospect he can be. They don't want players who are damaged by other team's teaching and coaching and systems. The same thoughts go on even in my industry and probably many others. Employers would rather hire someone who is completely raw who they can mold to their liking, rather than hiring someone with a bit of experience who may have developed habits and thought processes that you don't prefer.
While I think (1) above is probably the biggest contributor to Rosen's trade value, all four of these contribute to it, I would think. The bigger question for me is, if the Giants really did like Rosen last year, I don't know how they let him go last year. Maybe they'll luck into him this year, though I have a sneaking suspicion that the Cardinals aren't going Murray after all.
You could throw San Diego and New England into that market as well, but both of those teams expect to be in Super Bowl contention next year. They're not spending a first round pick on a future QB when their established QB is still playing very well and they have talent at enough positions to make a final run or two with their established QB. Adding an immediate contributor in the first round is critical for them. Maybe they'd trade a second or third for Rosen, but not a first given their situation.
and llike otehrs have said - not a whine or complaint out of the guy
One huge factor here is that he's had 5 (I believe) different offenses/play callers in the past 6 years. Or vice versa. That is insane. Give this kid some consistent coaching with a good line and running game. The red flags from last year's draft did not prevail, in fact look like strengths.
Maturity - It shows a lot about his character the way he's handled this stupidity by AZ.
Injury-prone - stayed relatively healthy getting pummeled all year.
I'm all in on bringing him aboard well over any of this year's prospects including Murray.
But I'm not reading anything persuasive here.
I've never seen a team give up on a top talent in less than a year, and I don't understand why some other team hasn't already traded for him.
I find the whole thing bizarre.
I know it's not the final result, but from what we've seen, it's not because of any sort of attitude.
But I'm not reading anything persuasive here.
I've never seen a team give up on a top talent in less than a year, and I don't understand why some other team hasn't already traded for him.
I find the whole thing bizarre.
Brett Favre the Falcon
and llike otehrs have said - not a whine or complaint out of the guy
Not only that, he also was the 1st to show up to voluntaries earlier this month. And Markus Golden tweeted the following:
Ian Rapoport
✔
@RapSheet
· Apr 8, 2019
The #AZCardinals offseason conditioning program begins today, and not only is QB Josh Rosen in the building… he was the first guy in the building for new coach Kliff Kingsbury.
Markus Golden
✔
@markusgolden
He was the first in the building as a rookie to! Great Guy and player!
The owners had their dinners with him, etc.
They may well have liked him as a QB, but Barkley had the perfect grade.
He's already had his rookie growing pains behind a crap OL.
On the Giants, he'd sit a year and learn more behind Eli.
By the time he takes over, he should be significantly better than a rookie.
He's on a rookie contract, so he's still inexpensive.
There's a lot to like from that perspective.
If there's some horror show behind the scenes, wouldn't it have come out?
The concussion thing has been WAY overblown IMO. He got hit plenty last year.
Yet everyone is jumping to spend the #6 pick on any of them. But you wouldn't spend a #37 on Rosen?
Talk about BPA....
That's just it.
We really don't know what teams are thinking. This year as much or more than any in memory.
I think teams ARE interested in him, and I think the Giants are one of them. I think Gettleman wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't have at least as ONE of his possible scenarios, a run at Rosen if/when the time came. Things just have to fall a certain way. So many moving parts this year. Kinda crazy, really.
Fun!
New coaches often want "their guy"... Rosen isn't that for Kingsbury. He's a guy from a regime that lasted one year and got fired.
They're in a position where they can get Kingsbury the QB he's long-coveted, recoup as much value as possible for Rosen and move on.
I don't think that's far-fetched.
How many teams are legitimately interested in Rosen right now? 3 or 4? Maybe they're just content with the alternative QB options available to them if Arizona won't bite on their offer for Rosen.
Have to remember that the team making the offer is getting a QB who already has 1 year of his rookie contract burned - and that's half the appeal. The contract. He's also, like I said before, taken a bit of a beating.
So, you'd be paying sticker price on a car that has been taken off the lot for a few test drives already...
I wouldn't want to do that. Would you?
No disrespect intended for guys here sharing their opinions or wants, but all I care about is reading the words of the EXPERTS. if they say he can be a stud, I’m all in. If they say there are too many question marks, I’m all out.
Lastly, how does he compare with the top 5 QBs coming out this year? That is equally as important. What do the EXPERTS say about that?
The owners had their dinners with him, etc.
They may well have liked him as a QB, but Barkley had the perfect grade.
He's already had his rookie growing pains behind a crap OL.
On the Giants, he'd sit a year and learn more behind Eli.
By the time he takes over, he should be significantly better than a rookie.
He's on a rookie contract, so he's still inexpensive.
There's a lot to like from that perspective.
If there's some horror show behind the scenes, wouldn't it have come out?
The concussion thing has been WAY overblown IMO. He got hit plenty last year.
And yet have the Giants even offered their #17 pick for him? If they haven't, what does that say?
Sure, it drops the second they make that pick, BUT ... there might be something to the "in the moment" emotional perception of making that trade during the draft that makes the Arizona front office want to hold off on surprising no one with the Murray pick.
Hope that makes sense. At least as I intend it.
And yet have the Giants even offered their #17 pick for him? If they haven't, what does that say?
That they are waiting until they have selected Murray. It may also mean they just dont see him here.
I want Rosen here and have since the speculation began but I will admit that he doesnt seem like a DG type of QB. I trust JonC and jtgiants info.
and his rookie year was a booze filled shit show in which he only threw 4 passes
I can't think of a QB whose personality is a better fit for the NY market. The medical concerns in the family is something else. But that seems purely speculative
Quote:
got outsmarted, called out and now are being punished and made fools of.
That doesn't make sense to me either. Teams don't seem to want him.
Quote:
Favre was a second round draft pick.
and his rookie year was a booze filled shit show in which he only threw 4 passes
And Green Bay gave Atlanta the #19 pick for him a year later.
Terrible coaching. Their play calling was horrible.
He didn't always scan the field and he has a tendency to be REALLY late getting the ball out. I think that's the biggest issue. His process is slow and I think that gets solved by backing up a veteran for a season or two. He has all the tools besides that.
I like him over most of the QBs in this draft who are mostly projects that aren't Day 1 starters. IMO