1. We bash athletes who are assholes (Greg Hardy, Kareem Hunt, Tyreke Hill). Jones is as clean as they come.
2. We criticize Eli because he is immobile. For all intents and purposes we got one of the more athletic QBs in awhile who is also 6’5.
3. We mock Jones cause he shows a lot of qualities with his persona that Eli has. Almost as if that’s a bad thing?
4. We are complaining about Jones’ arm strength yet Eli never had a howlitzer, neither do the following QBs.... Watson, Peyton, Eli, Rivers, Ryan... etc. You know who had strong arms? Cutler, George, Russell.
5. The majority of BBI has wanted to move on from eli for years, now that we have... the majority still can’t stop bitching.
Listen, I wanted Josh Allen too. I am in the molds of building a team around the QB rather than vice versa. And I was as upset when we didn’t take Allen. But we have a new franchise guy who looks to be very easy to root for in the future. But reading BBI, this guy will be shit on from the get go for no reason.
Maybe he’s more like Eli than we ever imagined....
at 6 i didnt love it, but such is life. they still got 2 good defenders.
If Jones becomes a success, DG becomes a genius.
In the end, we’re all NYG fans. Let’s pray he was right. I don’t want to continue watching shitty football.
I even joked a few days ago that BBI would go nuts if we drafted Jones at #6 with one of the "premium" defensive players there.
Jones is lacking in accuracy, arm strength, college production, and even field vision according to some.
His excuse is that his team sucked outside of him which is fine but only gets you so far. Also the fact that people have been calling this for a year now because of the Cutcliffe connection rubs a lot of us the wrong way.
I really hope he’s good but he is a very weak pick at initial glance.
They blinked...imo
But I get it, Gettleman is a genius.
Jones shits the bed in 2020, the Giants get the #1 overall pick in 2021, and get Sunshine Lawrence. He's playing the long game and we are all too blind to see it!
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
Again production isn’t there because there’s no talent around him. This idea QBs should make all the players around them better is BS. If you can’t block, you can’t block.
If you cant catch, you can’t catch.
And if that turns out to be the case, a new regime gets to take a swing at the ball in a few years.
I count myself in the category of people who were disappointed with the Jones pick. I agree with Sy’s analysis that this is a guy the Giants should not have picked.
Regardless of what I thought leading up to the draft and last night, Jones is the immediate future of this team at the QB spot so I am on board now and hoping like hell he turns into an all time great. But fans are fans and some will be rational and some will be emotional. Everyone will not be a fan the same way you are and that is ok.
I actually think we got good value with him at 6. I don't think he'll have the career that Eli has, but he'll be good starting qb.
Nobody here (other than Sy) is experienced enough and scouted all of the QBs to know anything.
In my limited knowledge and only based upon what I can see on youtube (which is not a coach's tape), here is what I see.
1. The guy is extremely accurate - knock on Eli at times
2. Jones shows that he can go through the progressions and not key on one WR.
3. He is mobile and can beat you with his legs while he is still a pocket passer.
4. He is tough and will put his head down and force his way to a first down or over the goal line.
5. He does not get flustered when pressured.Courage in the pocket.
6. He was coached by the best apparently.
What we still need to know is what kind of leader he will be.
People here are getting their vaginas hurt because he was not ranked in the top 10 on most draft boards... that's it. If we drafted Haskins, nobody would have said anything.
Those individuals really have no ability to put things into perspective. So we took Jones maybe 10 draft slots ahead of where he was scheduled to get picked. That is NOTHING.
Consider what we did to get Eli. There were some here (including myself) who did not like giving up what we did for him. However, that cost versus 10 draft positions is not even close.
But, the Giants obviously liked Jones better than any other QB available this year. The Giants had conviction on a QB, which is what we all want. I think the mobility factor was a huge selling point along with his toughness. I can't believe folks didn't want the Giants to address QB this year.
I said for weeks, if the Giants had a QB they really liked that they had to take him at #6. Others said it as well and folks didn't want to listen.
People wanted their Edge guy and are now acting like babies because the Giants didn't pick who they wanted.
Nobody here (other than Sy) is experienced enough and scouted all of the QBs to know anything.
In my limited knowledge and only based upon what I can see on youtube (which is not a coach's tape), here is what I see.
1. The guy is extremely accurate - knock on Eli at times
2. Jones shows that he can go through the progressions and not key on one WR.
3. He is mobile and can beat you with his legs while he is still a pocket passer.
4. He is tough and will put his head down and force his way to a first down or over the goal line.
5. He does not get flustered when pressured.Courage in the pocket.
6. He was coached by the best apparently.
What we still need to know is what kind of leader he will be.
People here are getting their vaginas hurt because he was not ranked in the top 10 on most draft boards... that's it. If we drafted Haskins, nobody would have said anything.
Many here, including myself, didn’t want a qb out of this entire class at all. I’d be just as disappointed in Haskins or Lock as I am with Jones, be it at any draft slot this weekend.
Look at the kids college production. Granted bad team impacted his numbers but 56% completion with a noodle arm. I read somewhere his % was 28% on throws over 20 yards.
QBs always get over drafted but my god at 6 with Allen on the board Ill never understand. Where is our pass rush coming from this year?
I actually think we got good value with him at 6. I don't think he'll have the career that Eli has, but he'll be good starting qb.
It's never too soon to draft a QB you believe is a Franchise guy. People have their heads in the sand if they believe that. If anything, I would have less confidence in the pick if they waited until 17 to see if he was there.
but I do think some of his issues were due to the collarbone injury. He was very good in the games up to it and then varying degrees of a worse in all the games after the surgery until the bowl game where he was more like the 1st 3 games.
Now obviously that's only one year and it's not like he was statistically much better any other year.
Look at the kids college production. Granted bad team impacted his numbers but 56% completion with a noodle arm. I read somewhere his % was 28% on throws over 20 yards.
QBs always get over drafted but my god at 6 with Allen on the board Ill never understand. Where is our pass rush coming from this year?
That 28% number on throws 20 yards plus down the field has been referenced a few times in the last 12 hours. Scary shit if true.
Josh Allen isn't a Hall of Famer yet, so I'm ok waiting to see how this plays out. And if Jones is very good, Allen won't matter anyway.
All I can say is I'll be rooting hard for Jones, Lawrence and Baker...
Look at the kids college production. Granted bad team impacted his numbers but 56% completion with a noodle arm. I read somewhere his % was 28% on throws over 20 yards.
QBs always get over drafted but my god at 6 with Allen on the board Ill never understand. Where is our pass rush coming from this year?
Jones threw is better than Lock and Haskins at the combine. His arm is plenty strong enough.
I’ll give them the benefit of doubt. You can win with someone like that.
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
One pick doesn’t buck a trend.
Keep blaming Jones’ faults on his teammates, it really will be a smooth transition from Eli.
Definitely.
SY’56 said months ago if Jones was the Giants guy they were not waiting until 17 to pick him . Kudos to SY’56. Glad the Giants got their guy.
2) We hear each year how the draft is a crap shoot, draft picks do not automatically mean players who will be stars or even make the team and then when a pick is made (or some traded) we hear how dumb the choice was and how can you give up so much..
3)Please tell how the Giants reached for Jones- when Haskins slipped passed QB needy teams- Oak, Miami, Denver.. If Jones was such a bad pick and Haskins such a stud, why didn't any of those QB needy teams snag him?
4) Again, the draft guides and reports are opinions based on outside observation (no testing in person, no meeting with coaches, no hands on involvement) and yet when a team grabs a guy that the "guides" had listed lower the consensus screams are the FOOTBALL people know nothing and should be fired.
Someone on another thread used the breakdown of Tom Brady when he came out as an example of don't always go with the "scouting" report as gospel. Someone immediately chimed in saying don't even compare Jones with Brady.. The OP didn't compare the two as of today but the reports of Brady coming out to Jones coming out. Guess what, if Jones and Brady were in the same draft way back when, Jones would have been drafted higher than Brady! The point isn't comparing Jones to the now known commodity that is Brady but to the unknown draft report of Brady when he was coming out of college.
Before we shit on the guy let's give him a chance.
How many of the incompletions on deep balls are due to:
- bad throws
- drops
- good coverage
- throwaways
Sometimes context matters.
The Giants did an enormous amount of work on him and all of the other QBs in this and the last draft. They wanted a tough QB that can run an offense and make the throws. That's what they think they got. They bet hard on this kid. Time will tell if they are right.
2. Jones shows that he can go through the progressions and not key on one WR.
He was near the top of the college football prospects in one read passes.
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In comment 14409211 ajr2456 said:
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
One pick doesn’t buck a trend.
Keep blaming Jones’ faults on his teammates, it really will be a smooth transition from Eli.
Well it is a factor. Name 1 player on duke on offense that will get drafted. I’ll wait. Now we can all name 2 wrs from ohio st that will be drafted. Now we can also name to olinemen from ohio st getting drafted. So yea, there wasnt much talent around daniel jones.
I’m sure they would have preferred to get Jones at 17 and use the 6 pick on Allen or whoever fell to them. I think the problem was they couldn’t find a partner to trade up from 17 to get ahead of the 3-4 other teams who also might have taken a QB.
I look at it this way. They had a bonus pick and used it on a QB.
From Boylhart...
There is too much talent and potential to pass up Josh in the 1st round but the truth is right now he is better in a three-point stance bursting off the line into the back field than he is standing up, off the line of scrimmage. He is going to need some hard coaching and a mature attitude to reach his full potential as an OLB/DE in a 3/4 Defense. I’m not saying he can’t do it…all I’m saying is, put on the film and watch him in a three-point stance coming off the line and then tell me that you think he should be standing up off the line struggling to carry out his assignment, until you can get him up to speed.
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
UCONN...just about any 4th round QB excels on those kind of throws in any draft, any year. You take a guy at #6 overall because he can do a lot more than throw a nice bubble screen or 7 yard slant.
Holy shit...
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In comment 14409211 ajr2456 said:
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
One pick doesn’t buck a trend.
Keep blaming Jones’ faults on his teammates, it really will be a smooth transition from Eli.
No, the trend was bucked when we traded for a Safety who can cover, then traded up for a top CB. Your analysis stinks, own it.
As for Jones, he's got work to do. His poor cast didn't help him, is this arguable? How about Evans helping Manziel look better, does it not work in reverse?
Holy shit...
Time will tell. But keep trusting the front office.
Wait and see on Jones. I’m hoping he’s a beast.
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In comment 14409232 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 14409211 ajr2456 said:
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
And he played for a really bad team. So no shot that had an effect, right? And incase you've been sleeping through the last year, we are building a team that wants to dominate time of possession. Jones excels at everything you want in the short and intermediate game.
But hey, you bitched at me last week about how Gettelman doesn't like to invest in CB's so I guess I can learn a thing or two from you.
One pick doesn’t buck a trend.
Keep blaming Jones’ faults on his teammates, it really will be a smooth transition from Eli.
No, the trend was bucked when we traded for a Safety who can cover, then traded up for a top CB. Your analysis stinks, own it.
As for Jones, he's got work to do. His poor cast didn't help him, is this arguable? How about Evans helping Manziel look better, does it not work in reverse?
And let’s see what happens when Gettleman has to pay Peppers. I’ll take multiple off seasons of data over one.
And Mansfield didn’t go 6th, there were the same amount of people saying Manziel wouldn’t be good in the NFL as there were Jones.
I’m sure they would have preferred to get Jones at 17 and use the 6 pick on Allen or whoever fell to them. I think the problem was they couldn’t find a partner to trade up from 17 to get ahead of the 3-4 other teams who also might have taken a QB.
I look at it this way. They had a bonus pick and used it on a QB.
There, you said it. Need. This was a need pick, not a BPA pick. Unlike last year
But I get it, Gettleman is a genius.
Jones shits the bed in 2020, the Giants get the #1 overall pick in 2021, and get Sunshine Lawrence. He's playing the long game and we are all too blind to see it!
Do your homework. Seriously, do your homework than opine all you want to. Kirwan (he thought it was an uncanny amount) and others who know more than we do, could not believe the inordinate amount of DROPPED PASSES Jones had to endure at Duke. That factors in big time when you evaluate accuracy, don’t you think?
And let’s see what happens when Gettleman has to pay Peppers. I’ll take multiple off seasons of data over one.
And Mansfield didn’t go 6th, there were the same amount of people saying Manziel wouldn’t be good in the NFL as there were Jones.
So I was right, Evans did make Manziel look better. Interesting. And there are plenty of people who think Jones will be good, they jiust don't have him pegged as Andrew Luck so I guess he will stink.
You really are a miserable dude. Not sure why I bother responding. Guys like you who don't get their draft board confirmed by reality absolutely suck to have a conversation with.
I'll worry about paying Peppers in 2021.
Unlike Haskins, every third snap he was under jail break style pressure and still navigated the pocket and delivered an accurate ball. He seemed to navigate the pocket very well more often than not.
I know the dave brown stigma exists, but I didn’t see dave brown or even tannehill, I saw a guy with a lot of talent in his game who made his team better. The fact that the duke team was even nationally ranked is a testament to him. He made his team better, which is one of the things I know I was looking for in a qb.
It’s seems he was probably gone by cincy’s pick, so he probably doesn’t last until 17. The organization has conviction on a guy and took him. If it doesn’t work out, DG will be gone, if it does they Giants are wet at the position for the next 15 years.
It’s also not as difficult to walk away from a top pick as it used to be, the Cardinals did it yesterday.
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And let’s see what happens when Gettleman has to pay Peppers. I’ll take multiple off seasons of data over one.
And Mansfield didn’t go 6th, there were the same amount of people saying Manziel wouldn’t be good in the NFL as there were Jones.
So I was right, Evans did make Manziel look better. Interesting. And there are plenty of people who think Jones will be good, they jiust don't have him pegged as Andrew Luck so I guess he will stink.
You really are a miserable dude. Not sure why I bother responding. Guys like you who don't get their draft board confirmed by reality absolutely suck to have a conversation with.
I'll worry about paying Peppers in 2021.
Yes WRs make QBs look really good in an offense where you throw down field.
I’m really not but sorry I disagree with your takes on the Giants.
Listening to NY's number 1 morning sports talk show offered the following takes.
Greg Gionnotti said with certainty that not other team would have taken Jones in the 1st round. Oh really?
He also admitted he went to check Odell Beckham's twitter feed when they made the Jones pick. Why?
The kicker was when they couldn't even get the trade package we gave to move up correct. They claimed we gave a 2 and 2 3's.
They were also referring to Gettleman's Boston accent as fake.
It's funny since the Giants have had a couple of bad years, now every guy they move on from is the second coming of Reggie White or Barry Sanders.
I think most of us did not like this QB class at all, including our own gurus Sy and Dave Te.
On top of that, our crack asshats had us all picking an edge guy, right in the wheelhouse of this Defense strong and QB weak draft.
Nothing against Jones, he might be a solid QB eventually, but I'm sorry if like the rest of BBI, I ain't buying what Dave's selling us here. At all.
He's all in on Eli, and his "winning while rebuilding" line just got blown up by this pick. Jones does nothing to help us win this year.
We also have to buy that the Giants fell in absolute gaga love with Jones over not only the rest of this weak sauce QB class but also Darnold and Rosen.
Sorry, but when the Giants and DG act like they know better then the rest of the NFL, I'm with the rest of the league.
Because he knows better,DG did not check in with SF before finalizing the OBJ deal.Add his godawful 2018 free agency performance and Kyle Lauletta are 2 more reasons I ain't buying what he's selling.
And for the Giants themselves, they too knew better then the rest of the league the last time they drafted a QB from Duke. I don't want to hear Jones isn't Dave Brown either, but too bad, we are all going to hear it alot from now on, like it or not, that narrative is built in and the media will paint us with it all day long.
Again, I am with the rest of the NFL world again. Hope I am wrong as can be, but I wouldn't bet on it.
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In comment 14409380 ajr2456 said:
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And let’s see what happens when Gettleman has to pay Peppers. I’ll take multiple off seasons of data over one.
And Mansfield didn’t go 6th, there were the same amount of people saying Manziel wouldn’t be good in the NFL as there were Jones.
So I was right, Evans did make Manziel look better. Interesting. And there are plenty of people who think Jones will be good, they jiust don't have him pegged as Andrew Luck so I guess he will stink.
You really are a miserable dude. Not sure why I bother responding. Guys like you who don't get their draft board confirmed by reality absolutely suck to have a conversation with.
I'll worry about paying Peppers in 2021.
Yes WRs make QBs look really good in an offense where you throw down field.
I’m really not but sorry I disagree with your takes on the Giants.
Disagreeing is fine. I disagree with posters all the time. You just choose to refute evidence and facts like they are nothing.
Here's a stat, Jones played 3 years at Duke, 36 total games. His WR's dropped 86 passes. Only Drew Lock had more and his completion percentage was 3 points worse.
Please tell me it doesn't matter again.
I've always been an Eli guy. I still have faith in him if he actually has an OLine. I did not think a QB from this class was a smart move. We will see.
Scott Barrett
@ScottBarrettDFB
1) Last season, among all 64 Power-5 teams, Duke ranked 20th in passing grade, 7th-worst in receiving grade, and 2nd-worst in pass-blocking grade.
2) Last season Jones' receivers dropped 36 of his passes, which ranked third-worst in the Power-5. No QB lost more yards in air on dropped passes last year (525, 100+ more than the next-closest QB.)
3) Last season, among all Combine-invite QBs, Jones was pressured on 25.2% of his dropbacks (most), despite having the shortest time to throw on average (2.37s).
For perspective, Murray was pressured on only 13.2% of his dropbacks while averaging 3.06 seconds to throw.
Cant wait for ajr to tell me that this shit doesnt matter.
Not as much now, but when we drafted Eli he easily had a plus arm. There wasn’t a throw he couldn’t make. And that was back when the league was more vertical.
Jones has virtually no plus categories except he seems to have the mindset to handle NYC. Which is beyond laughable as a criteria.
First, we passed on Darnold.
Then we passed on Rosen.
Then we drafted Lauletta.
Then we kept Eli.
Then we didn’t trade for Rosen.
Then we passed on a premium edge rusher.
Then we drafted a QB with no plus skills at #6.
This is what we get for a fake GM search that lands a GM who has never picked a franchise QB. But he’s a card carrying member of the “Giants Way”...
No see you only reply to the complaints.
I complimented the Lawrence pick. The Hill, Carter, Hernandez picks last year. The Beal pick. The Golden signing.
Seems to me that QB is the one exception to the rule and that makes sense to me. I fully buy Lawrence and Baker being at the tops of their board.
I didn't want to spend the 6 on him with Allen sitting there. I thought for sure if there was conviction on sticking to BPA they had to pass on Jones and take Allen. But they took Jones. I'll live with it. I just don't get why they didn't take Allen and then Trade up from 17 with the Bills and take Jones there. Maybe they explored that and the offer wasn't good enough pre-draft. Maybe one day we will find out.
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Scott Barrett
@ScottBarrettDFB
1) Last season, among all 64 Power-5 teams, Duke ranked 20th in passing grade, 7th-worst in receiving grade, and 2nd-worst in pass-blocking grade.
2) Last season Jones' receivers dropped 36 of his passes, which ranked third-worst in the Power-5. No QB lost more yards in air on dropped passes last year (525, 100+ more than the next-closest QB.)
3) Last season, among all Combine-invite QBs, Jones was pressured on 25.2% of his dropbacks (most), despite having the shortest time to throw on average (2.37s).
For perspective, Murray was pressured on only 13.2% of his dropbacks while averaging 3.06 seconds to throw.
Cant wait for ajr to tell me that this shit doesnt matter.
These same stats excuses were made for Josh Allen last cycle and he went on to compete barely over 50% of his passes in the NFL. Drops aren’t always the WRs fault and are an inexact stat.
The point I’ve continually made in the Jones/His cast was bad debate is that he still should have been able to show flashes of elite talent and in my opinion it wasn’t there.
It’s not like he was playing Clemson every week.
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, huh?
Getting back to Jones, hardly anybody has mentioned Gil Brandt's assessment and dismisses him as an old senile geezer. He has been pretty dependent with his assessment of players and projecting their success in the NFL. What if he is correct? He compares him to Danny White and Peyton Manning. I have heard Mitch Trubisky also. I saw Danny White play and he wasn't too shabby. Jones had no supporting cast his entire career at Duke. He had on OLine and got decimated but got right back up. His WRs where horrible and where amoungst the leaders in the NCAA in dropped balls. People say his accuracy is not great? What if Daniel Jones played for Ohio State or Oklahoma? I bet he would have been the 1st or 2nd overall pick in this draft if he had played with better talent on his team. I also like the fact that he is mobile. Yes, he has the ability to extend plays and move around the pocket. That is what Shurmur prefers. Maybe he molds him into an elite QB. That's what we as Giant fans should be hoping for.
What I don't get are people complaining of Haskins, because he only played 1 year. The funny think is Murray played only 1 year also and think he is the real deal. But yet, Jones played 3 full years of college football and has plenty of tape. What is the rationale with this argument? Personally, I would not have mind taking Haskins: because of his high IQ and accuracy and ability to handle the beign in NY. My opinion is that I would never had touched Murray, because of the uncertainty of how he would handle being in New York, his size and maybe leaving for baseball later on.
On other thing. The comparisons of Daniel Jones to Dave Brown are stupid and plainly absurd. Just because he played for Duke and wore #17 doesn't qualify him for being a failure. You may as well say that Saquon Barkley is going to suck, because he played for played for Penn St., the same college that produced disappointing RBs such as Blair Thomas and Ki Jana Carter.
Lets get a grip everyone and move on. We got our QB of the future. Now the Saquon Barkley haters on this board can shut up. Let's start supporing your team and be a true Giant fan. If Jones doesn't pan out after playing on this team for a few years, then we can call the pick stupid and a failure. However, I do have at feeling Jones is going to work out.
Do You speak english? And count me as grateful you're not in the molds building a quarterback around the team. How would you do that?
Do You speak english? And count me as grateful you're not in the molds building a quarterback around the team. How would you do that?
Oh good another BBI legend who doesnt know his dick from his brain. Sorry I added a "s" on a word.
How the Browns doing? You admitted of being a Browns fan now. So you come here trolling the Giants board. A real winner you are.
I even joked a few days ago that BBI would go nuts if we drafted Jones at #6 with one of the "premium" defensive players there.
We could've had Allen, Beckham and Rosen. Instead, we have Jones, Lawrence and Baker. Maybe Gettlemen ends up being right, but it's hard to say he's inspired much confidence so far.
Not as much now, but when we drafted Eli he easily had a plus arm. There wasn’t a throw he couldn’t make. And that was back when the league was more vertical.
Jones has virtually no plus categories except he seems to have the mindset to handle NYC. Which is beyond laughable as a criteria.
First, we passed on Darnold.
Then we passed on Rosen.
Then we drafted Lauletta.
Then we kept Eli.
Then we didn’t trade for Rosen.
Then we passed on a premium edge rusher.
Then we drafted a QB with no plus skills at #6.
This is what we get for a fake GM search that lands a GM who has never picked a franchise QB. But he’s a card carrying member of the “Giants Way”...
Here we go with the dinasaur mentality again.
People who refuse to accept that the league has changed and can't change their opinions on what is necessary to play well in the league.
Arm strength may matter less today than at any point since the forward pass became a staple of the modern offense. With the speed and power of today's pass-rushers, the ability to get the ball out quickly and accurately is critical. Sitting in the pocket looking for the home run ball is asking for a sack, turnover or way to get your QB hurt.
If you need a clearer example of how the game has changed, look at Brady. In his early career (and yes, we can use the Super Bowl XLII as a great example), he would drop back and wait for receivers to come open deep and get the ball there.
After Brady got injured (ACL) and the game changed, the Patriots reimagined their offense, and adapted by moving small receivers across the defense in short patterns designed to create separation and get yards after the catch. While Brady still takes the deep shot occasionally, it is no longer the staple of the offense.
The Giants basically won Super Bowl XLII because they pounded Brady into submission by constantly hitting him- didn't get many sacks, but eventually the offense crumbled because he got rid of the ball faster and faster with less and less accuracy- and the offense was not designed to do that.
The Giants know- as just about every team in the league does, that QBs are not going to get 3-4 seconds back there very often. They will get 2 or less on many passing downs. Good luck getting the ball downfield in the air more than 20 yards in that short window- unless you are Mahomes- and there's only one of him.
Jones is the modern QB designed for the modern game. He doesn't have a howitzer, but has more than enough arm to make all the key throws. Accuracy and getting the right decision is his game.
Look at the offense Shurmer ran in Minnesota. It was high-octane, but not because the QB was heaving it 40 yards downfield. It was about moving the receivers and a QB who got the ball into the space where the receiver had space to catch and run. It was also balanced by a good run game. The OL was not top-notch, but it was good enough to give the QB and RB time and space.
That is what the Giants are looking to replicate- guys like Engram and Barkley getting into space and getting the ball in their hands without having to break stride, and allow their athleticism shine in the open field.
bw, the era of the big armed QB is OVER. Time to come out of the paleolithic era of football and recognize that the game has changed- and your view of what is important in a QB hasn't changed.
I hope Daniel Jones turns out to be Bert Jones. If so, we will all be giddy.
Unlike Haskins, every third snap he was under jail break style pressure and still navigated the pocket and delivered an accurate ball. He seemed to navigate the pocket very well more often than not.
I know the dave brown stigma exists, but I didn’t see dave brown or even tannehill, I saw a guy with a lot of talent in his game who made his team better. The fact that the duke team was even nationally ranked is a testament to him. He made his team better, which is one of the things I know I was looking for in a qb.
It’s seems he was probably gone by cincy’s pick, so he probably doesn’t last until 17. The organization has conviction on a guy and took him. If it doesn’t work out, DG will be gone, if it does they Giants are wet at the position for the next 15 years.
It’s also not as difficult to walk away from a top pick as it used to be, the Cardinals did it yesterday.
This is the first post I have ever agreed with LAX on.
We could've had Allen, Beckham and Rosen. Instead, we have Jones, Lawrence and Baker. Maybe Gettlemen ends up being right, but it's hard to say he's inspired much confidence so far.
Why? After drafting Barkley, Hernandez, BJ Hill, and Carter last year I am more than willing to give him so space
The next time having a dominant run game and controlling clock is a bad thing, it will be a first for the NFL.
Look at the kids college production. Granted bad team impacted his numbers but 56% completion with a noodle arm. I read somewhere his % was 28% on throws over 20 yards.
QBs always get over drafted but my god at 6 with Allen on the board Ill never understand. Where is our pass rush coming from this year?
Where is this "noodle arm" and inaccurate passer crappola coming from?
It is baffling to me that the loudest who claimed they were stupid last year for passing on a QB (any QB!) for Barkley, are now in many cases the loudest to claim they are stupid for passing on lesser players than Barkley for this 1 particular QB. Yet many would have been fine with the guy who fell to 15 and got passed over by more than 1 team who was looking at QB's. Or the guy who hasn't been drafted yet. Or a 25 year old projected to go in round 3 with a weaker arm? That would have been great value!
I was not enthused about Daniel Jones 2-3 months ago, but as teams in the teens began bringing him in for private workouts I took a closer look and saw enough there to think he warranted a first round pick. In particular he played a very ballsy game vs. Clemson with 3 top 17 defenders taking turns treating him like a tackling dummy (or trying to). He accomplished things at Duke that haven't happened in a long time (or ever). I fail to see how anyone could view Josh Allen (the qb who went #7 last year) better in any area of being a QB other than pure arm strength. Jones played better competition, produced better results, and checks all the same size/speed/smarts boxes.
I’m bothered by using #6 overall on a player you basically don’t even intend to give an honest chance to win the starting job. Eli’s had a great career, but I think the level of emphasis being placed on having a new QB be his understudy is absurd. If the kid was a project that didn’t require huge investment, I totally get it.
I have a hard time reconciling the ‘Eli can still play’, ‘they want to win in 2019’, and ‘Eli is definitely the starter in 2019’ with taking a QB at #6 in the face of the massive talent deficiency throughout the rest of the roster.
It is baffling to me that the loudest who claimed they were stupid last year for passing on a QB (any QB!) for Barkley, are now in many cases the loudest to claim they are stupid for passing on lesser players than Barkley for this 1 particular QB. Yet many would have been fine with the guy who fell to 15 and got passed over by more than 1 team who was looking at QB's. Or the guy who hasn't been drafted yet. Or a 25 year old projected to go in round 3 with a weaker arm? That would have been great value!
Again, why do people who wanted a new QB have to be happy with this pick?
bw, the era of the big armed QBs is OVER. Time to come out of the paleolithic era of football and recognize that the game has changed- and your view of what is important in a QB hasn't changed.
I couldn't disagree more. The game isn't moving away from arm strength as much as the game is embracing QB mobility - horizontally and vertically. The ability of a QB to make throws horizontally and to be able to run vertically to make plays, especially on crucial downs. And in order to make those throws horizontally you have better have a plus arm.
Here's an exercise - write down all the current successful QB in the NFL, with their various styles, and tell me who doesn't have a strong arm. I'll guarantee right now the majority have a plus arm.
I'll help you get started:
Mahomes, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Wilson, Wentz, Brady, Rivers, Luck, Goff, Newton...I'll let you finish the rest.
What about Deshaun Watson?
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It is baffling to me that the loudest who claimed they were stupid last year for passing on a QB (any QB!) for Barkley, are now in many cases the loudest to claim they are stupid for passing on lesser players than Barkley for this 1 particular QB. Yet many would have been fine with the guy who fell to 15 and got passed over by more than 1 team who was looking at QB's. Or the guy who hasn't been drafted yet. Or a 25 year old projected to go in round 3 with a weaker arm? That would have been great value!
Again, why do people who wanted a new QB have to be happy with this pick?
Nobody needs to be happy about anything, but logic would dictate that people who thought QB was a desperate need would at least be happy they addressed the need. I personally don't love Baker for example, but I know they needed a CB so if they thought he was the best let's see how their evaluation turns out. They certainly invested a lot more into their evaluation than I did so I could be wrong.
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In comment 14409991 Eric on Li said:
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It is baffling to me that the loudest who claimed they were stupid last year for passing on a QB (any QB!) for Barkley, are now in many cases the loudest to claim they are stupid for passing on lesser players than Barkley for this 1 particular QB. Yet many would have been fine with the guy who fell to 15 and got passed over by more than 1 team who was looking at QB's. Or the guy who hasn't been drafted yet. Or a 25 year old projected to go in round 3 with a weaker arm? That would have been great value!
Again, why do people who wanted a new QB have to be happy with this pick?
Nobody needs to be happy about anything, but logic would dictate that people who thought QB was a desperate need would at least be happy they addressed the need. I personally don't love Baker for example, but I know they needed a CB so if they thought he was the best let's see how their evaluation turns out. They certainly invested a lot more into their evaluation than I did so I could be wrong.
Not if they felt they took the wrong QB. Addressing the need doesn’t matter if the potentially blew it.
After the pick
Bbi- wtf you doing
That about right
You just have to hope those who feel compelled to trust what very well appears to be an incompetent front office don't have to wait as long for vindication as the Warriors fans did.
I even joked a few days ago that BBI would go nuts if we drafted Jones at #6 with one of the "premium" defensive players there.
I said it in February. Something to the effect of, imagine when we pick Jones at 6.
It just made too much sense.
You just have to hope those who feel compelled to trust what very well appears to be an incompetent front office don't have to wait as long for vindication as the Warriors fans did.
Should we trust your opinion then over Gettlemans? What has Gettleman done that has been wrong so far.
Let me guess.... signing stewart and omameh - and cutting one of them after he saw his mistake? What success rate does a GM need to have to be deemed incompetent?
"We didn't sign OBJ to trade him."- trades him
"We take BPA at the draft, don't reach for players that's fatal philosophy."
I find it very hard to believe that Daniel Jones was the sixth best available overall prospect on the board which means the Giants reached a day after they said they won't do that.
It doesn't instill confidence or trust in the plan the front office has and DG doesn't have enough of a track record in his GM stint with the Giants yet to trust his decision making process.
I know people complained in the past about telegraphing picks, but there is a way to communicate with out telegraphing the pick and without downright lying. You keep lying to the media, they are going to be out for blood
I'm cautiously optimistic based on his past roles evaluating talent, but this pick need to be a home run.
I can't believe people care about this stuff.
What about Deshaun Watson?
If you don't think Wilson doesn't have a great arm, and are going to boil the comparison down to one day throwing indoors on a gun, then you are very naive.
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than Jones at the combine. And Rivers doesnt have a big arm.
What about Deshaun Watson?
If you don't think Wilson doesn't have a great arm, and are going to boil the comparison down to one day throwing indoors on a gun, then you are very naive.
Yeah, I’m the naive one.
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On the intermediate and deep throws. It's so far off from what you normally see from a top prospect.
But I get it, Gettleman is a genius.
Jones shits the bed in 2020, the Giants get the #1 overall pick in 2021, and get Sunshine Lawrence. He's playing the long game and we are all too blind to see it!
Do your homework. Seriously, do your homework than opine all you want to. Kirwan (he thought it was an uncanny amount) and others who know more than we do, could not believe the inordinate amount of DROPPED PASSES Jones had to endure at Duke. That factors in big time when you evaluate accuracy, don’t you think?
So, your saying that the talent evaluators aren't smart enough to look at where the passes are going versus whether they are caught or not? Come on. Let's face it. The Giants were in the minority on this guy. Last time that was the case, we drafted Ereck Flowers. Before that, Eli Apple.
Not your best effort.
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Scott Barrett
@ScottBarrettDFB
1) Last season, among all 64 Power-5 teams, Duke ranked 20th in passing grade, 7th-worst in receiving grade, and 2nd-worst in pass-blocking grade.
2) Last season Jones' receivers dropped 36 of his passes, which ranked third-worst in the Power-5. No QB lost more yards in air on dropped passes last year (525, 100+ more than the next-closest QB.)
3) Last season, among all Combine-invite QBs, Jones was pressured on 25.2% of his dropbacks (most), despite having the shortest time to throw on average (2.37s).
For perspective, Murray was pressured on only 13.2% of his dropbacks while averaging 3.06 seconds to throw.
Cant wait for ajr to tell me that this shit doesnt matter.
Jones adjusted completion percentage was 44%, which isn’t great.
Adjusted completion percentage:
"...credits passers for on-target throws that are dropped by receivers, but also removes passes that are thrown away (i.e. not targeting any receiver), batted at the line of scrimmage, spiked or even passes thrown when the quarterback was hit as he threw."
Adjusted completion percentage:
"...credits passers for on-target throws that are dropped by receivers, but also removes passes that are thrown away (i.e. not targeting any receiver), batted at the line of scrimmage, spiked or even passes thrown when the quarterback was hit as he threw."
Oh goodie. More formuals.
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Not your best effort.
It’s an observation that doesn’t require any effort at all.
It’s an observation that doesn’t require any effort at all.
We can tell..
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Adjusted completion percentage:
"...credits passers for on-target throws that are dropped by receivers, but also removes passes that are thrown away (i.e. not targeting any receiver), batted at the line of scrimmage, spiked or even passes thrown when the quarterback was hit as he threw."
Oh goodie. More formuals.
Only stats that matter are the ones that back your opinion. Got it.
Only stats that matter are the ones that back your opinion. Got it.
Funny, I was thinking the same about you. Heres a hint of something. When you use stats that dont include personnel - they have very little meaning.
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Only stats that matter are the ones that back your opinion. Got it.
Funny, I was thinking the same about you. Heres a hint of something. When you use stats that dont include personnel - they have very little meaning.
I’m still not sure how using stats that factor in his supporting cast don’t matter.
It actually supports your argument as his normal deep completion percentage was 25%. It also shows that he’s still not good at.
I’m still not sure how using stats that factor in his supporting cast don’t matter.
It actually supports your argument as his normal deep completion percentage was 25%. It also shows that he’s still not good at.
No what it doesnt do is tell the whole story. How often did he miss wide open guys? How many times were the well covered? How many times was he pressured or hell even have a clean pocket.
Context is important. If there is video evidence supported by stats that Jones missed 80% of open receivers that were open 20 yards plus downfield, then you catch my interest.
Plugging numbers in doesnt nor will it ever do it for me. Who knows with better personnel maybe that number jumps up? Maybe with better protection it jumps too.
Stats without context are meaningless. And thats what a lot of advanced stats are.
At least be consistent
With QBs, none of that shit matters. It only matters if the guy can make a play in an actual NFL game.
There's plenty of guys with incredible arms who sucked in the NFL. There's plenty of guys with incredible production in college who sucked in the NFL. There's plenty of guys who had ideal height, hand size and athleticism who sucked in the NFL. You can't look at a spreadsheet and know how this is going to turn out. You can't look at his scouting report and know how this is going to turn out. They may help you decide who to pick but Unlike Dexter Lawrence, who I think everyone agrees will be a successful pro, it's really hard to judge if a QB can play in the NFL until he gets the chance.
Gettlemen picked his guy. This is his Giants legacy one way or the other. We can't know how this will end. We won't even learn anything until the kid has the ball in his hand in the 4th quarter down a score. Then we will find out if he's an NFL QB or not. The rest of the stuff on these threads is noise.
At least be consistent
And it went to go to show that personnel factors into QB play, which is why I posted it. You and others have flat out stated that he is inaccurate. Well guess what drops is a stat that is always on the low end because many catchable arent deemed as drops - but are plays receivers usually make.
I disagree with this. Jones had the highest adjusted completion percentage on deep passes in the entire NCAA. Ahead of both Tua & Drew Lock. It's not his fault his WRs can't catch.
Also due to dropped passes he lost 525 air yards. Which is the most in college football by 100+ yards.
The heavy majority are fans with amateur understanding who rely on what mock drafts and talking heads say and perhaps a handful of games they caught of a player while watching as a casual fan.
And two of those five, the two contributors who are actual football scouts, were pretty lukewarm on Jones.
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That stated the number of drops with none of that context and said “I can’t wait for ajr to say these don’t matter”
At least be consistent
And it went to go to show that personnel factors into QB play, which is why I posted it. You and others have flat out stated that he is inaccurate. Well guess what drops is a stat that is always on the low end because many catchable arent deemed as drops - but are plays receivers usually make.
To play your game how many of those drops were because the player was well covered?
Adjusted completion percentage takes out all the stuff a QB can’t control and sure guys could be well covered but that’s not going to cause a 15% jump in adjusted completion percentage.
I’d pull his expected completion percentage which has proven to be a predictor of college to NFL success but it’s probably not worth the time.
To play your game how many of those drops were because the player was well covered?
Adjusted completion percentage takes out all the stuff a QB can’t control and sure guys could be well covered but that’s not going to cause a 15% jump in adjusted completion percentage.
I’d pull his expected completion percentage which has proven to be a predictor of college to NFL success but it’s probably not worth the time.
Well being that Duke has no draftable players - how many times do you think guys were running open for the majority of those incompletions?
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Reminds of following the Warriors forums a bit in the 90s and 2000s, where you'd see people defending moves like trading Vince Carter for Antawn Jamison or drafting Mike Funleavey over Amare Stoudemire.
You just have to hope those who feel compelled to trust what very well appears to be an incompetent front office don't have to wait as long for vindication as the Warriors fans did.
Should we trust your opinion then over Gettlemans? What has Gettleman done that has been wrong so far.
That's exactly what I mean. That's exactly the sort of argument the optimistic Warriors fans would make. And the Warriors sure gave them a lot of opportunities to make them!
That's exactly what I mean. That's exactly the sort of argument the optimistic Warriors fans would make. And the Warriors sure gave them a lot of opportunities to make them!
But you provided no information on the questions I asked - which is a staple of yours and BBI. See how the game is played?
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That's exactly what I mean. That's exactly the sort of argument the optimistic Warriors fans would make. And the Warriors sure gave them a lot of opportunities to make them!
But you provided no information on the questions I asked - which is a staple of yours and BBI. See how the game is played?
That's because I dismissed your questions as rhetorical and knew jerk.
At the end of five years, I'm fairly sure Gettleman will either have made enough mistakes to have justified a firing, or will have been given the opportunity to draft another stud QB high on account of a few miserable seasons he helped to precipitate. There are poorly run teams in the NFL. If we aren't one of them, who is?
He should have them contending by now!
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In the NFL for awhile. Jones wasn’t good at in college. The arm strength isn’t an issue, it’s the ability to play the position.
I disagree with this. Jones had the highest adjusted completion percentage on deep passes in the entire NCAA. Ahead of both Tua & Drew Lock. It's not his fault his WRs can't catch.
Also due to dropped passes he lost 525 air yards. Which is the most in college football by 100+ yards.
That same site called him a third round talent. Deep passes are one thing. The rest of his game is mediocre.
Likely to be 'overdrafted.' Whoops - ( New Window )
seriously, I would never suggest I am qualified to judge college players but by pretty much every account, this is a bad pick in the sense that D Jones is not worthy of being picked #6... and that matters.
I predict that when history is written on all of this, the narrative will correctly be that the Giants really screwed up the Eli transition. Start with wasting his later years, then the Geno Webb start, followed by keeping him too long and then drafting a QB that, on the surface, seems to have been chosen in large part b/c of his connection to the Mannings.
It is all ham-handed and unfortunately Jones will have to manage through it. Maybe everyone else is wrong and DG is a genius but I wouldn't bet on it.
The Giants used a premium pick on what is most likely a middling QB. What a shame.
seriously, I would never suggest I am qualified to judge college players but by pretty much every account, this is a bad pick in the sense that D Jones is not worthy of being picked #6... and that matters.
I predict that when history is written on all of this, the narrative will correctly be that the Giants really screwed up the Eli transition. Start with wasting his later years, then the Geno Webb start, followed by keeping him too long and then drafting a QB that, on the surface, seems to have been chosen in large part b/c of his connection to the Mannings.
It is all ham-handed and unfortunately Jones will have to manage through it. Maybe everyone else is wrong and DG is a genius but I wouldn't bet on it.
The Giants used a premium pick on what is most likely a middling QB. What a shame.
I quoted tweets from a guy that did research on a player that I know very little about. If you want to dispute them or just go out and say he is not worthy of the pic and be lazy - thats your choice.
And for anyone who says he wasnt worth the pick 6 is just too funny to me. What if he plays 12 years wins a super bowl throws for over 40,000 yards and over 300 TDs...
Is he still not worth it? Making judgements like this keeps ESPN and fox sports in business.
And for anyone who says he wasnt worth the pick 6 is just too funny to me. What if he plays 12 years wins a super bowl throws for over 40,000 yards and over 300 TDs...
If you're willing, I'll take that bet.
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And for anyone who says he wasnt worth the pick 6 is just too funny to me. What if he plays 12 years wins a super bowl throws for over 40,000 yards and over 300 TDs...
If you're willing, I'll take that bet.
How about you tell me what would it take for him to be worthy of the pick? I mean people keeping preaching value, value, value.... but is there a definitive value on value?
I am just telling you I don't think that will be the case.
sometimes these things are fairly simple and the one guy in the room who sees what no one else does is actually the one who is wrong.
The guys who told us "you should never reach for a player" reached for a player.
Now we wait, root like hell and see it all plays out...
Now we wait, root like hell and see it all plays out...
I am glad we are. I am not sure everyone else here will.
This 100%. He's not a great QB, period. You can analyze it all you want, he wasn't great in college. Eli was great in college. None of your other comments matter to me after that.
I am just telling you I don't think that will be the case.
sometimes these things are fairly simple and the one guy in the room who sees what no one else does is actually the one who is wrong.
The guys who told us "you should never reach for a player" reached for a player.
Now we wait, root like hell and see it all plays out...
I'm with ya-- going to root like hell -- hoping in near future we can put out a contending team but it won;t be in 2019 season and that is certainly not Jones's fault.
WHat gets me is that DG can say anything he wants and some here hold him accountable for NOTHING bad. Only praise him for anything good.