1.) The Giants are not a racist organization
2.) They have not had an African American starting QB due to circumstance; they have only had a few QB’s in the last 30 years
3.) They have had multiple African American QB’s on their roster in the last several years
4.) They did not draft Haskins because they had Jones rated higher. Jones is faster and has more experience than Haskins.
5.) The Giants are not the only team to pass on Haskins. The Broncos, Dolphins, and Bengals, all QB needy teams, watched him pass by.
Are we judging players now? Or just race? Or rather by what Archie wants? Maybe the maras made the pick?
Who’s model is it now? Jones will sit his entire career behind Eli?
This shit is confusing to my simple mind.... I better go watch ESPN or Fox sports to learn about the game.....
Dep, my mom called me today and asked me about Daniel Jones. She said they were tearing him apart on ESPN. I mentioned to her what Bill Polian, Pat Kirwan, Gil Brandt, etc. were saying and that was completely new information to her.
ESPN has become a joke. It simply tries to build up controversy in order to generate interest in their ever increasingly shitty product.
Daniel Jones may suck ass. But is it the "medias" job to convince fans that he is a pathetic excuse for a QB before he ever throws a professional pass? And unfortunately too many fans are acting like sheep and falling for it.
Carter is still realling from the the Gs 2001 whoopin of Minn Â
After watching the pre-draft press conference it was clear Gettleman valued a QB who faced adversity on the field. He also mentioned being QB in the NY market & wanting to see adversity. But let’s all just ignore that.
If it's your position that the Giants are not a racist organization, then I agree with you.
Eric you are a mensch. You stood up for your friends against false accusers. You could have shied away but instead you pushed back with truth and reason. We’d all be lucky to have a friend who would do for us what you’ve been doing for the past several hours. Godspeed.
We should just delete this thread - its going nowhere Â
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
I disagree sir. So we all need to toe the company line just so a now multi-millionaire football player won’t maybe have his feelings hurt by people saying the Giants reached for him?
Also, this franchise was set back by a half-decade just from 2 failed top 10 picks in a row (Flowers and Apple) . A failed top 10 pick spent on a QB (especially when the guy some people went as far to say was the best player in the draft was still in the board) is a miss that could set the franchise back by closer to a decade. People invest money, time, and energy into rooting for the Giants so I think everyone has a right to express his/her opinion about the pick. No one is saying Jones killed anyone and criticizing the pick is not akin to that. Honestly if he can’t handle criticism and scrutiny now then he’s not going make it in NYC market anyway, so there’s no use in saying “come on let’s go easy on the kid”. I don’t know how this pick will turn out and I will root like hell for him to succeed, but I guarantee you a lot of the posters telling everyone to “go easy on him” and defending the pick will be the same people calling for his head when he throws 30 picks in 2021 and the Giants miss the playoffs for the 10th time in 11 years.
And before you call me a pessimist think about it this way: Jones was good at Duke, not great. He started for 3 years and by his final year he was still just a decent QB. From people I know who watch ACC football (not Duke fans) most of them say they thought of Jones as the 3rd or 4th best QB in the ACC. He did not strike fear in the hearts of opposing fans, and that is troublesome to me. So if in 3 years he was no better than simply decent in college, what are the chances he is going to be great in the NFL within the next 3 years. And what are the chances Saquon is going to want to re-sign with a losing team at that point? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go the way of Barry Sanders and take a chance on a losing organization for the 2nd half of my career, especially when he can go get a 9 figure contract elsewhere.
I’m ranting at this point but These are the reasons we are scrutinizing and criticizing this pick. It is not just “unprofessional” fan opinions, it is backed up by plenty of experts as well. People saying “clearly DG knows what he’s doing we have to trust him” forget the fact that a lot of people said the same thing about Jerry Reese (and at least Reese had won a couple Super Bowls at that point).
Gettleman and Shumur At 5-11 have done nothing to validate such unconditional trust, and I’m sure I’m going to get plenty of personal attacks for this post, which is creepy because I myself haven’t personally anyone I’ve simply stated my opinion on a message board. But the common theme around here seems to be that anyone who thinks maybe other NFL teams and GMs might have things better figured out than the Giants right now needs to be called a fool or an idiot or a buffoon etc.
RE: We should just delete this thread - its going nowhere Â
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
I explicitly said the opposite.
I said that was how you were seeing the comment, but that was not how the comment was actually made. And I explicitly did not accuse the Giants of anything (and neither did Carter in the clip).
I do not think your responding "bullshit" demonstrates a good faith attempt to further this conversation. I get it, it's a message board, and probably not the best place for this conversation. Nevertheless, I raised multiple points re the concerns you've brought up that I'd be happy to discuss further if you want to respond to them. If not, that's fine too.
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
+1
I literally thought of Eric in this thread while watching Jorah battling the zombie horde.
if Carter walks this back. I'm sure the NFL won't like one of its franchises called racist. I'll bet the NFL was on the phone to Carter's bosses in no time.
Clicks and looks. You know what's easy to get those? Racial controversy and sports. Chris Carter is just "feathering his bed". The idea that the Giants drafted Jones ahead of Haskins because of race is out and out laughable.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
for standing up to this Salem Witch Trial exercise of flinging damning accusations without a shred of evidence and in defiance of all logic. One guy here lists Giants QBs and suggests there is something sinister about their all having been southerners. Except he concocts this list by omitting all the non-Southerners: Dave Brown, Kurt Warner, Kent Graham, Kerry Collins, Jeff Hostetler, and no doubt many others pre-Simms. Another guy, staring in the face of devastating arguments backs down to "unconscious" bias, an accusation against which no one can ever demonstrate his innocence. Another says, well yes, the Giants have had blacks in all kinds of key roles but not as "face of the franchise." What does that mean? At different moments different stars have been prominent. With all due respect to Simms, when I recall the first Superbowl teams, I think of LT and then Banks and Carson. Later, Eli, okay, but also Strahan and "Thunder and Lightning." Still others invoke "racism" in the NFL or in football or in America, as if the fact that racism exists somewhere means that all are infected by it--or at least all white people. Is there any accusation for which some people demand less proof than this one?
RE: When you make a pick as bizzare as Jones at #6 Â
You open yourself up to all kinds of nutty theories.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
OK, so what is the so-called conspiracy theory that you are advocating here? It is your position that for an NFL team to draft Jones over 6 other ACC QBs requires an explanation? What are your thoughts on why this happened? You are stating that this pick is fodder for conspiracy, and I want to know what that conspiracy is and whether or not you believe it.
Did he forget the NY Giants started a Black QB over a Giant Legend that broke his iron man Streak . I always tried to give Carter a break because he can be a great commentator but then he pulls off his mask and lets you know he acts like a bigot himself and reminds you of his hatred for the Giants . ESPN is another liberal shit hole .
Maybe it's me I didn't want Haskins but it certainly wasn't because of the color of his skin .
Some people like Carter just can't help themselves .
What a fool he is really just a fool .
And the college scouting director.
RE: And you gotta love any article that quotes Jalen Ramsey Â
for hard hitting social commentary. Just shut the fuck up with this nonsense already...
Ramsey is a POS . Remember him running into Barkley on the
sidelines and Barkley blasted him then of course Jalen got up in his face running his mouth after he got punked screw him too he can't keep that trap shut bet dollars to donuts Jalen
will end up in trouble somehow you can just smell it .
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Not sure why I am bothering to post on this thread but here goes... Â
Over the past 30 years of my career in software development, I have been responsible for hiring somewhere around 1200 people. When I hire people I could care less what color their skin is, I have hired from every racial background. However, it has been extremely rare for me to hire Latinos and Blacks... If you look at my hiring history, it will definitely be skewed to Indians, Chinese, and Russians (though not recently)... On the surface you can claim I have a racial bias. But if you dig deeper, you will find that it has been extremely rare for Latinos and Blacks to be presented to me as candidates. Early in my career the vast majority of candidates who were presented to me were either White or Chinese. Over the latter has it has been overwhelmingly a different racial/ethnic group.
Is there a systemic racial bias within the agencies that submit the candidates, and in HR who screens them first? I would not know. But by the time it gets to me, my only job is to pick the best ones available for the job at hand and produce something. As I said, I couldn't care less what they look like, as long as they are the best people to help me get the job done. Not once did I ever keep track of how many people of a particular race or ethnic background that I hired, and oh maybe I should make the next one from a different group, just to be diverse. That would be asinine, and counterproductive. Clearly, the bias in my hiring was dependent on what candidates were available to me to hire.
The NFL, and by extension the Giants have been in a similar situation. Was/is there a systemic racial bias in high schools and college to push black players to positions other than QB? There seems to be so yes. The result is that by the time the NFL comes knocking, there have not been many black QBs with the proper level of coaching and experience to make them ready for the NFL. So not having black QBs for an NFL team or having had very few is not a matter of the team being bigots, but rather a function of the candidates available.
There seems to be less of this going on now, and we see more QB of various ethnic backgrounds now. Interestingly, there still seems to be a preponderance of white QBs. Does the racial bias still exist? At this point, I don't know. But as a Giants fan, its not really my problem, I want the team to get the best players. Just like I wanted to hire the best software developers, I don't care what their skin color is. And the team should feel and behave the same way.
I will say that in recent years that the industry has become dominated by one particular ethnic/racial group. This has happened in parallel with the "diversity movement". Not long ago, a company, for whom I no longer work, put out statistics to tout how well they are doing with regards to diversity... The report literally showed that technology was comprised of 92% of people from this one particular racial/ethnic background, 3% white women, 2% white men, I forget what the breakdown of the other 3% was... The thing is I look at that and say "That is NOT diversity". I've known quite a few white men in the industry who were very talented, some that I have hired, and they were pushed out of their job, never to work in the industry again. That's a problem, and that is NOT diversity, that is also a form a racism.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I don't mind having a nuanced conversation about race Â
But at the end of the day every single person is nuanced in their own way, and there is no escaping that. What is more, it is unrealistic to expect that at any point in human history or the future that people will not be nuanced. So it is somewhat pointless to discuss the nuances, but rather to call out the real cases of injustice. Calling out highly nuanced situations is counterproductive, it angers people, and takes away from the discussion of the burning issues. Deal with the blatant acts of hate, cut those cancers out od society first. Then its worthwhile taking on the next level and the next and so on. Otherwise the message gets too diluted.
and so are those here who agree with the position he is taking. Still... since I am a first amendment supporter, Cris and some of our home grown dim wits are entitled to their opinions.
Someone else mentioned this earlier but Barkley is the face of the franchise and they are lucky to have a great kid like Saquan who seems to do all of the right things.
Final note for the race baiters here...
This racist organization (LOL) benched the fan's beloved Eli and ended his starting streak in favor of a black QB.
The Giants have had Ronnie Barnes as part of the Giants "family" for decades. At one point, it was said that Ronnie Barnes was one of the most influential people in the organization. The Mara's have so much love and respect for him that Ronnie is who Wellington asked to be at his bedside when his hours were coming to an end.
Some of you people will go out of your way to find racism everywhere.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Nice post fatman. You and I seem to end up on the opposite side of things, but I could not agree more.
Chris Carter’s comments do indeed get you thinking Â
I will say that in recent years that the industry has become dominated by one particular ethnic/racial group. This has happened in parallel with the "diversity movement". Not long ago, a company, for whom I no longer work, put out statistics to tout how well they are doing with regards to diversity... The report literally showed that technology was comprised of 92% of people from this one particular racial/ethnic background, 3% white women, 2% white men, I forget what the breakdown of the other 3% was... The thing is I look at that and say "That is NOT diversity". I've known quite a few white men in the industry who were very talented, some that I have hired, and they were pushed out of their job, never to work in the industry again. That's a problem, and that is NOT diversity, that is also a form a racism.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I understand what you are saying. However, implicit bias is more impactful upon others when it comes from me, a white man, than it would be if I were black or a woman or both. Women and minorities have to put up with every day shit that white men don't have to. I respect your sentiment but let's not suggest that we are all on a level playing field. Because of this, we are not all going to react the same way to events. If we can recognize and respect each other, that would be helpful.
So I do not agree that the Giants organization is any more racist than any other well meaning organization in a position of power. But let's not suggest that white privilege doesn't exist. The NFL is one of those areas in our society (along with the military) where merit rules, so integration is farther along than, say, on wall street.
Daniel Jones reeks of white privilege. Duke does as well. I think this is really unfair to him as a person and I hope this does not become a defining narrative. I also don't approve of the systemic racism that clearly exists in our society.
Quote:
the Giants were giving Haskins serious consideration.
Yeah the were... but after the combine, his pro day, and a couple of sit down meetings and dinners with him, they discovered he is a black man!
Lmao
That was my position from my first post but you kept thinking otherwise.
There are teams however that wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt to a black QB with Jones warts.
2.) They have not had an African American starting QB due to circumstance; they have only had a few QB’s in the last 30 years
3.) They have had multiple African American QB’s on their roster in the last several years
4.) They did not draft Haskins because they had Jones rated higher. Jones is faster and has more experience than Haskins.
5.) The Giants are not the only team to pass on Haskins. The Broncos, Dolphins, and Bengals, all QB needy teams, watched him pass by.
Who’s model is it now? Jones will sit his entire career behind Eli?
This shit is confusing to my simple mind.... I better go watch ESPN or Fox sports to learn about the game.....
Dep, my mom called me today and asked me about Daniel Jones. She said they were tearing him apart on ESPN. I mentioned to her what Bill Polian, Pat Kirwan, Gil Brandt, etc. were saying and that was completely new information to her.
ESPN has become a joke. It simply tries to build up controversy in order to generate interest in their ever increasingly shitty product.
Daniel Jones may suck ass. But is it the "medias" job to convince fans that he is a pathetic excuse for a QB before he ever throws a professional pass? And unfortunately too many fans are acting like sheep and falling for it.
Really, a draft pick, the race card, and posters are buying it :(
“Mara forced the pick on Gettleman bc Jones fits what he wants at QB.” It’s ridiculous.
Unless you wanna become a NY Giants quarterback.
Lmao
Stop creating problems where there are none.
Enough with the "If it ain't broke, 'fix it' until it is" mentality.
Go lay down.
Anyone who thinks race had anything to do with the worst draft pick in modern history is a complete fool.
BETTER WHY?!
Better because he is white?!
You RACIST!!!
;-)
Tom Quinn
Eric you are a mensch. You stood up for your friends against false accusers. You could have shied away but instead you pushed back with truth and reason. We’d all be lucky to have a friend who would do for us what you’ve been doing for the past several hours. Godspeed.
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This thread is so stupid.
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
I disagree sir. So we all need to toe the company line just so a now multi-millionaire football player won’t maybe have his feelings hurt by people saying the Giants reached for him?
Also, this franchise was set back by a half-decade just from 2 failed top 10 picks in a row (Flowers and Apple) . A failed top 10 pick spent on a QB (especially when the guy some people went as far to say was the best player in the draft was still in the board) is a miss that could set the franchise back by closer to a decade. People invest money, time, and energy into rooting for the Giants so I think everyone has a right to express his/her opinion about the pick. No one is saying Jones killed anyone and criticizing the pick is not akin to that. Honestly if he can’t handle criticism and scrutiny now then he’s not going make it in NYC market anyway, so there’s no use in saying “come on let’s go easy on the kid”. I don’t know how this pick will turn out and I will root like hell for him to succeed, but I guarantee you a lot of the posters telling everyone to “go easy on him” and defending the pick will be the same people calling for his head when he throws 30 picks in 2021 and the Giants miss the playoffs for the 10th time in 11 years.
And before you call me a pessimist think about it this way: Jones was good at Duke, not great. He started for 3 years and by his final year he was still just a decent QB. From people I know who watch ACC football (not Duke fans) most of them say they thought of Jones as the 3rd or 4th best QB in the ACC. He did not strike fear in the hearts of opposing fans, and that is troublesome to me. So if in 3 years he was no better than simply decent in college, what are the chances he is going to be great in the NFL within the next 3 years. And what are the chances Saquon is going to want to re-sign with a losing team at that point? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go the way of Barry Sanders and take a chance on a losing organization for the 2nd half of my career, especially when he can go get a 9 figure contract elsewhere.
I’m ranting at this point but These are the reasons we are scrutinizing and criticizing this pick. It is not just “unprofessional” fan opinions, it is backed up by plenty of experts as well. People saying “clearly DG knows what he’s doing we have to trust him” forget the fact that a lot of people said the same thing about Jerry Reese (and at least Reese had won a couple Super Bowls at that point).
Gettleman and Shumur At 5-11 have done nothing to validate such unconditional trust, and I’m sure I’m going to get plenty of personal attacks for this post, which is creepy because I myself haven’t personally anyone I’ve simply stated my opinion on a message board. But the common theme around here seems to be that anyone who thinks maybe other NFL teams and GMs might have things better figured out than the Giants right now needs to be called a fool or an idiot or a buffoon etc.
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Quote:
and will likely spiral out of control
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
+1
Mara: I never beat my dog
Carter: Hard to believe. How old is your dog?
Mara: 10 years old
Carter: So you had to get a new one?
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
I explicitly said the opposite.
I said that was how you were seeing the comment, but that was not how the comment was actually made. And I explicitly did not accuse the Giants of anything (and neither did Carter in the clip).
I do not think your responding "bullshit" demonstrates a good faith attempt to further this conversation. I get it, it's a message board, and probably not the best place for this conversation. Nevertheless, I raised multiple points re the concerns you've brought up that I'd be happy to discuss further if you want to respond to them. If not, that's fine too.
Mara: I never beat my dog
Carter: Hard to believe. How old is your dog?
Mara: 10 years old
Carter: So you had to get a new one?
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
+1
I literally thought of Eric in this thread while watching Jorah battling the zombie horde.
Quote:
Again, "bias" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own it.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
kind of a cowardly reply.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
OK, so what is the so-called conspiracy theory that you are advocating here? It is your position that for an NFL team to draft Jones over 6 other ACC QBs requires an explanation? What are your thoughts on why this happened? You are stating that this pick is fodder for conspiracy, and I want to know what that conspiracy is and whether or not you believe it.
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About the former GM being black
Did he forget the NY Giants started a Black QB over a Giant Legend that broke his iron man Streak . I always tried to give Carter a break because he can be a great commentator but then he pulls off his mask and lets you know he acts like a bigot himself and reminds you of his hatred for the Giants . ESPN is another liberal shit hole .
Maybe it's me I didn't want Haskins but it certainly wasn't because of the color of his skin .
Some people like Carter just can't help themselves .
What a fool he is really just a fool .
And the college scouting director.
Ramsey is a POS . Remember him running into Barkley on the
sidelines and Barkley blasted him then of course Jalen got up in his face running his mouth after he got punked screw him too he can't keep that trap shut bet dollars to donuts Jalen
will end up in trouble somehow you can just smell it .
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Is there a systemic racial bias within the agencies that submit the candidates, and in HR who screens them first? I would not know. But by the time it gets to me, my only job is to pick the best ones available for the job at hand and produce something. As I said, I couldn't care less what they look like, as long as they are the best people to help me get the job done. Not once did I ever keep track of how many people of a particular race or ethnic background that I hired, and oh maybe I should make the next one from a different group, just to be diverse. That would be asinine, and counterproductive. Clearly, the bias in my hiring was dependent on what candidates were available to me to hire.
The NFL, and by extension the Giants have been in a similar situation. Was/is there a systemic racial bias in high schools and college to push black players to positions other than QB? There seems to be so yes. The result is that by the time the NFL comes knocking, there have not been many black QBs with the proper level of coaching and experience to make them ready for the NFL. So not having black QBs for an NFL team or having had very few is not a matter of the team being bigots, but rather a function of the candidates available.
There seems to be less of this going on now, and we see more QB of various ethnic backgrounds now. Interestingly, there still seems to be a preponderance of white QBs. Does the racial bias still exist? At this point, I don't know. But as a Giants fan, its not really my problem, I want the team to get the best players. Just like I wanted to hire the best software developers, I don't care what their skin color is. And the team should feel and behave the same way.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
Someone else mentioned this earlier but Barkley is the face of the franchise and they are lucky to have a great kid like Saquan who seems to do all of the right things.
Final note for the race baiters here...
This racist organization (LOL) benched the fan's beloved Eli and ended his starting streak in favor of a black QB.
Some of you people will go out of your way to find racism everywhere.
Quote:
is it weird??
Quote:
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Quote:
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Again this doesn’t apply to every team.
Quote:
In comment 14419746 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is it weird??
Quote:
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Nice post fatman. You and I seem to end up on the opposite side of things, but I could not agree more.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I understand what you are saying. However, implicit bias is more impactful upon others when it comes from me, a white man, than it would be if I were black or a woman or both. Women and minorities have to put up with every day shit that white men don't have to. I respect your sentiment but let's not suggest that we are all on a level playing field. Because of this, we are not all going to react the same way to events. If we can recognize and respect each other, that would be helpful.
So I do not agree that the Giants organization is any more racist than any other well meaning organization in a position of power. But let's not suggest that white privilege doesn't exist. The NFL is one of those areas in our society (along with the military) where merit rules, so integration is farther along than, say, on wall street.
Daniel Jones reeks of white privilege. Duke does as well. I think this is really unfair to him as a person and I hope this does not become a defining narrative. I also don't approve of the systemic racism that clearly exists in our society.
Thanks.
Thanks.
yeah I am still waiting for it too.
He is clueless!
Thanks.
I sold mine on Facebook Marketplace for just below $200 and an already used Chick-fil-A gift card.
Thanks.
Such a good take.
You're right. There's no general advantage at all to being white or a man in America.