The Giants have wanted to get more mobile at the QB position for the past few years. Haskins is not an athletic QB, he is a pocket passer but yeah it must be racism because isn't everything today?
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
They were ok with ending Eli's streak with a black QB Â
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
RE: The first time the Giants started an African American at QB, the story Â
wasn’t about that, and what took so long.
The story was about making the highest paid player in NFL history a victim.
Wait wait wait...the longest active streak is being broken by *choice* in a lost season by a coach who is obviously, woefully in over his head, and you want the story to be about the skin color of the career back up whose most notable accomplishment to that point was getting knocked the fuck out by a teammate over a video game?
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
But, the current climate yields results like this. Carter's comments were wild and based on nothing. We've been delving into racial equity and access at work over the last several months and one comment a person of color (term used at work, not my own) had an interesting comment just this past week. He said the way race and racism are being thrown around, it is almost diluting the meaning of those terms and it is becoming a damaging process.That is how I feel about this.
the Giants were giving Haskins serious consideration.
yeah, but that was before they knew he was black, lol. And let's not forget how Eli tried to make a fool of that young Black guy, what's his name, in the credit card commercials last season.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
What—in your estimation—is the reason the Giants have only had one black QB start in their centuryish or being around?
with Haskins. He was going to be at the draft and then he heard he might drop a little so he changes his mind and doesn’t go. He has a draft party at a bowling alley and charges people $50 to get in. The video of him watching the draft looked like he was sulking the entire time. He also looks like he is continuing to put on weight and not in a good way. The guy screams problem child to me.
RE: RE: The first time the Giants started an African American at QB, the story Â
wasn’t about that, and what took so long.
The story was about making the highest paid player in NFL history a victim.
Wait wait wait...the longest active streak is being broken by *choice* in a lost season by a coach who is obviously, woefully in over his head, and you want the story to be about the skin color of the career back up whose most notable accomplishment to that point was getting knocked the fuck out by a teammate over a video game?
Right on.
I’d buy the narrative of the career backup if he was in his 30s.
But Geno was still young, no reason not to take a shot with a guy who wasn’t too far removed from being a starter.
said Haskins lacked intelligence, but that was not the Giants.
If anything is racial here it is privilege Duke/Princeton, etc, or the "familiarity" with the Mannings and such, and not many have access to that. We'd be kidding ourselves to say it is not out there, but it is kind of hard to pin all that on the Giants. What's more, if you really did evaluate jones at the top of your board, do your not pick him to avoid the perception? It is a very difficult problem.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Gettleman should get a ton of thank you cards from members of the media this year. The amount of false narratives they’re throwing out about him just to get clicks is absurd, but glad our team could be of service keeping half assed journalists and commentators in business.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
If you don’t see the difference in the argument then I can’t help you.
If the Giants owners were motivated by race then they wouldn't have made Jerry Reese the general manager in 2007. The man responsible for building the roster and making all major personnel decisions was black. So they are comfortable with a black man in that position but not at QB? Got it I will just ignore the fact that Eli Manning was our QB for the past 15 years.
The Giants had a black gm. If there was a racial bias against black QBs was there not one against black managers? These supposed racist are on with a black man calling the shots, but not ok with a black man throwing the football?
Why did they bring Haskins to dinner if they have no interest in black QBs?
Or you are rooting for an NFL team that you think is racist.
The disturbing part is your reading comprehension. I never said the team was racist. I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. The qb position is different from all others, if you want to deny that go ahead and be my guest
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
Cmon Eric. One position in the NFL has far far more public importance than any other, as well being the GM like Reese. Eli is the face of the Giants. The Giant fan base skews older and white. Mara is super sensitive to fan reaction. It’s been proven that losing doesn’t cost him any money. And is it a coincidence that Jones is physically a clone of Eli, apparently even in personality.
the one team in the division that has had the same QB for the past 15 years..and hasnt started another QB of any other race,except one time and he was..Im thinking someone needs to shut up.. I can see if the team was like the Redskins and went through 20 different QBs and they never tried out someone other then a white QB , but your talking about the same guy. For 15 years..
To be honest, I’m not a huge fan of Jones or Haskins, I can care less what race they are. I’m just hoping Jones pans out now since he’s a Giant.
My guess is this is ESPN trying to drum up some more clicks and endless dumb conversation. Never mind the fact that Haskins showed up to the combine out of shape, said he would run a 40 at his pro day because he was injured at the time of the combine (excuse for the shitty 40 time) and then never actually ran it. And then hosted a fee based draft party (said he wanted to stay at home and not attend the draft to be with family), along with the league “done messed up” comment.
It’s okay for you to be one of the people Wellington Mara trusts and likes most in the entire world, its a good thing your the team doctor and not a QB...
Cmon Eric. One position in the NFL has far far more public importance than any other, as well being the GM like Reese. Eli is the face of the Giants. The Giant fan base skews older and white. Mara is super sensitive to fan reaction. It’s been proven that losing doesn’t cost him any money. And is it a coincidence that Jones is physically a clone of Eli, apparently even in personality.
Reeses face was all over ESPN. I call bullshit.
Secondly, I'm tired of this Jones=Eli bullshit. Jones is a very different player. Eli is a pure pocket passer. Jones is much more mobile and physical. Their games are not similar at all. They are both white men coached by the same guy, that's it.
But the Giants and Shurmur want a QB that can move, and they want that as a strength, that is not Haskins strength, he can throw moving to his left well, I watched every game he played, but it simply was not his strength. You have got to give a head coach the tools he needs to be fair with him, or how can you evealuate his performance. This is why Shurmur did so well with Keenam.
When you view the world through a racial prism, this is the kind of crap you get.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
People from different backgrounds view the world through different prisms. That is OK. The point is to try to understand.
There is an alignment of color and privilege here that may come to mind, especially if you are black. I don't think the Giants are racist here and I am concerned it may tarnish our new QB if carried too far. He was not on the Duke Lacrosse team. He is not Dave Brown or Christian Laettner. But we need to understand where this comes from and not amplify it.
I am not saying you are amplifying it Eric, quite the opposite, but all the action and reaction is a symptom of a much larger issue.
but I agree with those in this thread making the point that a team can have a heavily black roster, yet nonetheless exhibit bias in considering black players unsuited for the QB position. Clearly throughout football history that's been common, at every level.
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
Identity politics has warped your minds.
And yet none of them outed these supposed racist owners either?
And I mean this with all sincerity, if you really think the Giants are a bigoted organization, and you still support them, what the hell does that say about YOU?
the Giants were giving Haskins serious consideration.
Yeah the were... but after the combine, his pro day, and a couple of sit down meetings and dinners with him, they discovered he is a black man!
They saw that for the biggest week of his young life he came in out of shape and overweight and determined he wasn't worthy of consideration to be the next franchise QB of the NY Giants.
It's hard to miss the point as completely as some are. Â
Though we have a history of posts which I guess makes it unsurprising.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
According to wikipedia the demographics of the USA are, like the NYG fan base, skewed toward whites: "White people constitute the majority of the U.S. population, with a total of about 245,532,000 or 77.7% of the population as of 2013."
In 2017, the Giants started Geno Smith against Oakland instead of Webb Â
According to wikipedia the demographics of the USA are, like the NYG fan base, skewed toward whites: "White people constitute the majority of the U.S. population, with a total of about 245,532,000 or 77.7% of the population as of 2013."
Yet 80% of our draft were black guys... INJUSTICE! Racism! (sarcasm off) -
However we disagree on this proving racist motives for QB selection. I am quite sure Saquon Barkley is the face of the franchise today... and the Giants would have picked a green polka dotted guy if they thought he was the best QB.
According to wikipedia the demographics of the USA are, like the NYG fan base, skewed toward whites: "White people constitute the majority of the U.S. population, with a total of about 245,532,000 or 77.7% of the population as of 2013."
So you are saying that Giants are catering the notoriously racially non-diverse and redneck New York and New Jersey fanbase? (sarcasm off)
And again, you are exposing yourself as a supporter of bigots if you believe this.
It has only been the last two decades when we've seen the emergence of the black college quarterback.
Who has been the QB of the New York Giants for the last 15 years?
Do the fucking math.
I was actually asking about the last 95 years not just the last 15. Twenty seven teams seemed to be able to find quarterbacks of color before Eli was drafted. Just curious what you think happened happened the other 80 years?
However we disagree on this proving racist motives for QB selection. I am quite sure Saquon Barkley is the face of the franchise today... and the Giants would have picked a green polka dotted guy if they thought he was the best QB.
This, if we were such a racist organization we would have picked one of the many top rated QB’s in last year’s draft over Barkley. That means Denver and Cincy, and Miami must all be racist as well since they needed QB’s and all passed on Haskins.
RE: RE: It's hard to miss the point as completely as some are. Â
Though we have a history of posts which I guess makes it unsurprising.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
Point out where I made such an accusation? You continuously quote me as a bigot that believes the team is racist. All I did was address your initial argument (which was stupid btw) and then you proceed to spew nonsense
anti semitic for not trading for Rosen. Nonsense and sour grapes. They took who they thought was their best guy. Haskins was slow. fat and out of shape at his combine workout. Whos fault was that ? He never moved, threw from the same spot pass after pass. that turned me off on him. He only played in a dozen college games as well.
I guess I'm not surprised. There's a lot of reasons to criticize the Giants picking Jones instead of Haskins, but their race is just so, so lazy.
Skin color aside, they are incredibly different prospects. One played 3 years with a bad cast and the other played one year with a great cast. The choice to pick one over the other can be justified just on the numbers and what they did on the field. There's no reason to make it more than that.
The only problem this organization doesn't have is racism Â
can point to a span of 30 years and point mainly to 2 starting QBs (Simms and Eli). That's quite a big chunk of time which was going to limit the opportunity for any QB to play other than those 2.
Honestly, I was going to start a separate thread about Jones at some point, but Jones is a super safe QB for the Giants, and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin. The Giants want a QB who is going to run their offense, fit in their system and not make mistakes, quick passes, short passes, etc. Bringing in Tate and extending Shepard, 2 guys who are underneath WRs, and Tate who has a good RAC, fits this scheme.
What we know about Jones is that he's not going to wow anyone with any particular skill. He is pretty much ok in all areas and comes from the Cutcliffe coaching which means the Giants coaches won't have to do too much to get him ready to play in the NFL. This year is a transition year with Eli and the Giants are hoping not to have to hit a reset button in 2020, but rather have a smooth transition. I think they pretty much know what Jones is going to do.
This is a typical, Giants conservative pick at QB since they don't like surprises. Getting a Cutcliffe QB, after being with Eli for 15 years, to run an offense that will fit his skillset and he will likely ultimately become a game manager QB, who we all hope has a higher upside at the end of all this.
So the real question is, Jones or Haskins if we are going with Carter's accusation. I saw Godeep13 post on this thread, and I know he posted a thread earlier in last week which had some good asshat info in there, and was deleted to protect his source. As I recall, Godeep13 is African American and he said that Haskins' body type looks to be one in which he is going to end up being a heavier QB. Not a Jared Lorenzon just a big fat guy, but that is what Haskins' build, as he gets older, he's not going to slim down. You want a more mobile QB to move around in the pocket, hit quick passes, maybe scramble for a first down as needed, etc. Jones will do that better than Haskins, though Haskins' arm will likely always be stronger.
For me personally, I would have been excited to see a Kyler Murray here only because the Giants have not had a weapon like that at QB maybe since Tarkinton. Hostetler was the last scrambling QB, that was nearly 30 years ago. But I don't think the Giants are racist. Maybe they need Cutcliffe to recruit an African American QB at Duke ;)
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
Identity politics has warped your minds.
No. First, every NFL team is predominantly black. Second, to me racism means that race is a factor in a decision or judgement. I rarely call anyone a racist because race is an omnipresent factor in American life. That type of decision making would need to be persistent for me to call them a racist. People who claim to be color blind are just being blind. Do I believe picking Jones over Haskins was based exclusively or even primarily due to race? No. But I think it is just naive not to believe that in weighing which QB to pick, race and fan reaction did play a factor.
I suppose you believe that it isn’t fair to Mara and mgt. But our nations history makes it difficult for people like me not to see it as a possibility and something that is worth talking about.
Again, look at EVERY Chris Carter take ever on the Giants. Â
Is that one of the reasons the Giants drafted Jones is because he is a much more mobile QB. That is what Shurmur wants for his offense. That's what Gruden wanted as well.
How does an NFL team draft black quarterbacks when there were not many black quarterbacks in college football 30, 40, 50 years ago?
Nah, it's easier for you to slander without actually thinking this through.
I guess the Giants really should have drafted Jack Thompson over Phil Simms in 1979 so we wouldn't be having this conversation?
The 27 other teams I mentioned. If it was so hard to find black QBs in the last 95 years. Why were they able to find black quarterbacks when the Giants couldn’t?
He is assuming Daniel Jones and Eli are the same QB because of the color of their skin and because they look alike. The truth is they are very different. Daniel Jones is a mobile athletic QB who is threat to break off a big run. Eli is strictly a pocket passer but hey all white guys look alike am I right?
Though we have a history of posts which I guess makes it unsurprising.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
Point out where I made such an accusation? You continuously quote me as a bigot that believes the team is racist. All I did was address your initial argument (which was stupid btw) and then you proceed to spew nonsense
The point was clear enough. Suppose you cheer for a team that is run by bigots. Then you are part of the problem.
So for example, and speaking of myself only. I could not root for a team named after a racial slur (Redskins). People criticize the Chiefs for having thugs on their team (Hill, Hunt), but it is the Browns that took Hunt after they knew he was a problem. I have zero respect for the team that takes Hunt in after the Chiefs let him go.
The general point is that you can’t get all high and mighty when you root for an unprincipled team. If you think they are unprincipled you have to speak out or change your allegiance.
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
Barkley is the face of the franchise and I don’t see that changing
explain why Jerry Reese and Marc Ross went along with their supposed anti-black QB agenda and never mentioned the owners racist ways? Marc Ross has been shitting on the Giants every time he is in tv yet he has not mentioned once that the organization was racist.
The Giants were very interested in Mahomes two years ago but they weren't aggressive enough trading up for him. Does Mahomes count or should we just ignore that and continue trying to ruin the Giants reputation by making baseless accusations?
Please tell me why you are endorsing a race-based organization like the New York Giants? Are you a closet QB white supremacist?
You seem very angry and I can tell that’s affecting your thinking because I’m pretty sure Phil Simms and Eli haven’t been the only two quarterbacks for the last century.
its about character for gettleman, haskins is brash and loud ie his "league done messed up" comments etc whereas jones was humble and thankful for his name being called that was the dynamic they wanted he sounds and acts like eli and that was the type of traits they wanted in his sucessor
if he was black and had the same demeanor they would still have drafted him just the same ,race had nothing to do with it
it was his character they loved not his skin colour
They fired him because they are racist? They hired him over DG and he worked in that role for a decade. He got fired because he ran about six shitty drafts in a row which put our team in the toilet of the NFL.
When you view the world through a racial prism, this is the kind of crap you get.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
Too quickly do we state racism even when it doesn’t exist. It prevents us from discussing real issues because we are immediately fractured. The Gmen chose Jones for their own reasons and I believe none of them are due to his skin color. These constant discussions about race and hatred are exhausting and counter productive.
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
i
So it is your view that the Giants management has an implicit bias against black QBs, though not black players. You think drafting Jones over Haskins is evidence of that. I disagree.
If you think that there are elements of Jones upbringing and education that speak to white privilege, fine, but don’t tarnish the integrity of the management for no reason
This is so sad. As sad as the negative reaction to BLM. Â
The Giants were the first team in the NFL to have back assistant coaches, brought a black QB in Hank Washington to camp as early as the '60s, had a back GM and head of scouting, but somehow were uncomfortable drafting a black QB?
I'll tell ya, racism is alive in America, and folks on both sides see through hate-filled eyes.
That most people on here never learned to read. Either that or they have a worse attention span than the supposed “millenials”
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
I was wondering how long it would be for the accusations to come out Â
College football did not start producing black quarterbacks en masse until the last couple of decades.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning were the QBs for this team for for a total of three decades.
How do you not understand that math?
Again that’s only 3 out of 10 decades. But you know what...
Eric, I respect your opinions a lot. I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I wish I felt you could see things from my perspective. But that’s okay.
I don’t wish to continue going in circles since it seems we’re headed that way and those types of exchanges tend to devolve into personal attacks and name calling.
I hope we can agree to disagree here.
RE: on most issues i would come down as far ‘left’ as you can imagine Â
The Giants were the first team in the NFL to have back assistant coaches, brought a black QB in Hank Washington to camp as early as the '60s, had a back GM and head of scouting, but somehow were uncomfortable drafting a black QB?
I'll tell ya, racism is alive in America, and folks on both sides see through hate-filled eyes.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
I've had the thought, but no, I don't think it's a bigoted organization. Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
My company has a very white office. I know the people at the top aren't bigots, but that outcome is weird, too. And the industry we serve is aware of it, just as the NFL world is aware of the Giants odd lack of black men under center.
In an office, where people can have long careers but there's also a lot of turnover, you can get a diverse workplace if you make an effort to. I always try to hire an inclusive group (women, people of color, people with disabilities) when I assemble a team of freelancers. But the very white office is still weird to me.
The QB position on a football team is different. The Giants have had a couple of developmental black QBs (Andre Woodson and Ryan Perilloux, right?) who didn't pan out, and Josh Freeman and Geno Smith. But with Eli taking almost every snap for something like 15 years, opportunities have been limited. So they can be absolutely inclusive, un-biased, not racist one bit, and the outcome is still peculiar.
Having a black QB isn't a goal. Having a great QB is a goal. These roster spots aren't diversity hires. You go for the guy you think is best. But when it's time to choose, what are you looking at? It's normal for people to be more comfortable with people they perceive as being like themselves. What parts of Daniel Jones made the Giants more comfortable with him? He's the kind of QB they've had before. He comes from the same coach as the guy they've had. He's got other qualities they have had before and liked. That's pure football. Does his appearance figure in? It's very hard to separate that out, because unconscious bias can alter perception.
You look around the league and black QBs are routine now, except for the Giants, who almost never seem to have one on the field. I don't think it's racism, but the outcome is... odd.
And those who don't see bigotry where it exists adds to the Â
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Understood, but the reaction that matters is yet to come. And reaction on this site seems to be moving solidly in favor of Jones.
Do you not understand the fan reaction is because these fans feel Haskins is a better fit? Giants scouts, coaches and GM disagreed. Denver and Washington wanted him, too.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Understood, but the reaction that matters is yet to come. And reaction on this site seems to be moving solidly in favor of Jones.
You have to hope he is good, what the hell is your point. I don’t think most people are in love with Jones, but he is the guy they took. People attempt to get behind it. I still don’t think most people here are happy with it, or are you attempting to say that if we cheer for him and not Haskins we are racist?
They fired him because they are racist? They hired him over DG and he worked in that role for a decade. He got fired because he ran about six shitty drafts in a row which put our team in the toilet of the NFL.
Didn't say that. But he's not the best evidence that the Giants lack bias. The fact they fired Coughlin first is better evidence. The many other historical precedents cited on this thread are better evidence. The Giants have been a pretty progressive organization when it comes to race. It's easy for Chris Carter and others to cry racism. I don't agree.
But per my post above, the lack of black QBs on the field or on the roster for the Giants is peculiar. It looks bad. It may not mean much, but it looks bad regardless.
Why did the Giants not have any cell phones in their 100 year history?
Because you couldn’t buy them until the 80s!
And they had a contract with two phone companies that netted 4 Super Bowls!
Are you a moron?
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
I've had the thought, but no, I don't think it's a bigoted organization. Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
My company has a very white office. I know the people at the top aren't bigots, but that outcome is weird, too. And the industry we serve is aware of it, just as the NFL world is aware of the Giants odd lack of black men under center.
In an office, where people can have long careers but there's also a lot of turnover, you can get a diverse workplace if you make an effort to. I always try to hire an inclusive group (women, people of color, people with disabilities) when I assemble a team of freelancers. But the very white office is still weird to me.
The QB position on a football team is different. The Giants have had a couple of developmental black QBs (Andre Woodson and Ryan Perilloux, right?) who didn't pan out, and Josh Freeman and Geno Smith. But with Eli taking almost every snap for something like 15 years, opportunities have been limited. So they can be absolutely inclusive, un-biased, not racist one bit, and the outcome is still peculiar.
Having a black QB isn't a goal. Having a great QB is a goal. These roster spots aren't diversity hires. You go for the guy you think is best. But when it's time to choose, what are you looking at? It's normal for people to be more comfortable with people they perceive as being like themselves. What parts of Daniel Jones made the Giants more comfortable with him? He's the kind of QB they've had before. He comes from the same coach as the guy they've had. He's got other qualities they have had before and liked. That's pure football. Does his appearance figure in? It's very hard to separate that out, because unconscious bias can alter perception.
You look around the league and black QBs are routine now, except for the Giants, who almost never seem to have one on the field. I don't think it's racism, but the outcome is... odd.
I feel like a read something that makes me a little dumber. Thee narrative that the Giants drafted Jones over Haskins because of skin color is the winner today. God help us all.
I don't recall San Diego having a back starting QB either. BECAUSE they went from Brees to Rivers.
It is absolutely true that having a stable situation at QB means you don't get a lot of guys playing QB, so there's not a lot of opportunity to get any kind of diversity at the position. Green Bay went from Favre to Rodgers, but Rodgers got hurt and you got Hundley. I don't think that was even news. They have Kizer now backing up Rodgers. It's not a thing.
Eli never took a week off, so even if they had a black backup he'd have only been on the field in mop-up duty or garbage time, like David Carr and Ryan Nassib.
RE: on most issues i would come down as far ‘left’ as you can imagine Â
Pretty much true for me too.
The only good thing about this nonsense is that it reminds me stupidity is not confined to any particular political orientation.
discussion on BBI because there's always a side that is incapable of having a nuanced approach to the issue.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
RE: The topic of race generally doesn't yield a productive Â
discussion on BBI because there's always a side that is incapable of having a nuanced approach to the issue.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Well said.
The Giants were the last team ever to start a black QB Â
When Geno started in 2017. I have to admit that is quite a long time (almost 100 years as a franchise) to go with one race at that one position. And Geno only started one game, it’s not like he was named the franchise QB.
Also, I don’t know if anyone is saying this was a conscious point. It’s not like their scouting report on Haskins was like “Black, so possibly not smart enough to be QB.” People are more saying it could have been subconscious racism which happens every day in various situations and people don’t even notice it.
Regardless of Haskins’s talent around him at Ohio St., ask yourself: would Daniel Jones also have thrown 50 TDs in that offense and broken Drew Brees’s record? He might have had a nice year but Haskins was truly impressive for being a 1st-year starter. That’s the other thing I don’t get. The knock on Haskins being a starter just one year. Like doesn’t that make what he did even more impressive? Daniel Jones started 3 years and it’s not like he lit it up his 3rd season thanks to all his experience. That tells me he may have already hit his ceiling, right? Also remember that Ohio St offense was not particularly perfectly suited for Haskins’s game, he tailored his game to fit the system and it worked out beautifully.
Maybe you could argue Jones is “smarter” because he went to Duke, but having a high football IQ is an entirely different thing, and Haskins we know had a high football IQ. Hell Lamar Jackson does an awful job in interviews but Ravens coaches raved about how quickly he could digest the playbook and process information and feedback and apply to his game on the field.
I’m not even saying Haskins is going to be a star, but he was clearly a better prospect and we at least know had the potential to be GREAT. Jones was good in college and they’re asking him to be GREAT in the NFL. I think they overthought this one, just my opinion, not my job though so we’ll see. We can’t know what all the factors were that went into the decision but it is true the Giants have had a particular racial bias at that position over the years compared to other teams, that’s just a fact, and it didn’t even necessarily have to be something that was conscious or deliberate.
That most people on here never learned to read. Either that or they have a worse attention span than the supposed “millenials”
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
Yeah, me too, and yeah, I think so too. But I understand that people who think Jones is a huge "reach" are trying to find reasons for the reach. Let's hope the kid shuts everyone up. I don't want to be in the position of rooting for Haskins to fail, so let's hope Jones just does better, sooner.
That most people on here never learned to read. Either that or they have a worse attention span than the supposed “millenials”
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
Exhibit A
Don't hoist yourself up. You have been lacking a nuanced approach. There is a lot of nuance on this thread and you are not above it all.
Doing whatever it takes to stay relevant by firing up the know nothing fan.
let’s not conflate Cris friggin’ Carter with anything representing a journalist. This is as irresponsible a take as it gets. ESPN is a joke.
Agree about Carter. He's had a chip on his shoulder about the Giants for a long time. Has he always thought them racist, and finally had an excuse to say it in public? Or is this a new thing? That'd be an interesting question for a real journalist to ask him.
This thread is like that one argument that just happens Â
at a party or get together at someone’s house and, there’s a nucleus of people who just can’t let it go. Meanwhile there’s another set of people who are just like, “Whatever, I don’t care. Kinda just wanna get to the chips and salsa.”
People see shapes in clouds even though they aren't real.
Bigotry will never die if folks refuse to move on from it. The amazing irony that those who tout its injustice keep it alive & well...
Wow...so if you see an injustice you should turn a blind eye and hope it resolves itself and disappears? How about bigotry being removed because folks stop being bigots instead of allowing them to continue in their bigotry?
Carter is the same guy that spoke at the NFL Rookie Symposium Â
and told the Rookies to get a "fall guy" if they get in trouble with the law and to have that "fall guy" to take the blame for the incident. What a moral moron.
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
"subconscious" ??? Stop... you sound like some 1st year gender studies idiot.
So the same owner that hired a black GM is a "subconscious" racist?
"He was fired" he has fired because he was awful at his job.
This BS systemic racism crap is just another way for librals to hold black people down. "Its not your fault you suck at life America is racist" ignoring that fact that we hired a black president...twice, have a black supreme court justice and black people have occupied virtually every know occupation.
What's the ratio of Black athletes to white athletes?
Draft just happened... how many white people were taken vs black people?
Stop with your bull shit race baiting its making the world a worst place
This take has been on Twitter & it’s outrageous that people can just throw this out there.
Daniel Jones is white & boring, so let’s pound the Giants for being racist. So, it isn’t insulting to Jones to say he wouldn’t be drafted if he were black?
Just brutal.
RE: Man, somebody lock this thread before people start getting banned. Â
Is Racist! He has on multiple occasions made suggestive racial comments in the past. To make such an allegation with no evidence on a national sports show part of the problem today with the racial divide!!!!!!!
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
"subconscious" ??? Stop... you sound like some 1st year gender studies idiot.
So the same owner that hired a black GM is a "subconscious" racist?
"He was fired" he has fired because he was awful at his job.
This BS systemic racism crap is just another way for librals to hold black people down. "Its not your fault you suck at life America is racist" ignoring that fact that we hired a black president...twice, have a black supreme court justice and black people have occupied virtually every know occupation.
What's the ratio of Black athletes to white athletes?
Draft just happened... how many white people were taken vs black people?
Stop with your bull shit race baiting its making the world a worst place
Implicit bias and systemic racism are real. It has nothing to do with politics (or "librals" holding "black people down". The issue here is whether systemic racism is driving the Giants' personnel decisions. I don't think there is any evidence for that. I also think that going in that direction first and foremost is a mistake.
When Geno started in 2017. I have to admit that is quite a long time (almost 100 years as a franchise) to go with one race at that one position. And Geno only started one game, it’s not like he was named the franchise QB.
Also, I don’t know if anyone is saying this was a conscious point. It’s not like their scouting report on Haskins was like “Black, so possibly not smart enough to be QB.” People are more saying it could have been subconscious racism which happens every day in various situations and people don’t even notice it.
Regardless of Haskins’s talent around him at Ohio St., ask yourself: would Daniel Jones also have thrown 50 TDs in that offense and broken Drew Brees’s record? He might have had a nice year but Haskins was truly impressive for being a 1st-year starter. That’s the other thing I don’t get. The knock on Haskins being a starter just one year. Like doesn’t that make what he did even more impressive? Daniel Jones started 3 years and it’s not like he lit it up his 3rd season thanks to all his experience. That tells me he may have already hit his ceiling, right? Also remember that Ohio St offense was not particularly perfectly suited for Haskins’s game, he tailored his game to fit the system and it worked out beautifully.
Maybe you could argue Jones is “smarter” because he went to Duke, but having a high football IQ is an entirely different thing, and Haskins we know had a high football IQ. Hell Lamar Jackson does an awful job in interviews but Ravens coaches raved about how quickly he could digest the playbook and process information and feedback and apply to his game on the field.
I’m not even saying Haskins is going to be a star, but he was clearly a better prospect and we at least know had the potential to be GREAT. Jones was good in college and they’re asking him to be GREAT in the NFL. I think they overthought this one, just my opinion, not my job though so we’ll see. We can’t know what all the factors were that went into the decision but it is true the Giants have had a particular racial bias at that position over the years compared to other teams, that’s just a fact, and it didn’t even necessarily have to be something that was conscious or deliberate.
Haskins isn't mobile. Shurmer wants a QB with some mobility.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
So you are rooting for a racist team? Nice.
Not my point at all. Damn you missed this one. My point is your argument is weak. Just because NFL rosters are predominantly black does not mean there hasn’t been or isn’t a bias against black QBs. I do not think the Giants are a racist organization. If I did, I absolutely would not root for them. Again, it was your point I disagree with.
Some of the most respected institutions in the world... Â
...including some whose mission statements are devoted to human and civil rights, have found implicit bias to be a factor in their own recruiting and hiring for certain positions.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
RE: RE: RE: Man, somebody lock this thread before people start getting banned. Â
I'm surprised Carter doesn't also think they traded OBJ because he is black.
Hard to make that argument when Peppers comes back in the trade. If it had been Vernon and OBJ for just picks, you might have heard it louder.
I think the Giants drafted 10 guys yesterday and 8 were black (I wan't looking up photos for some of the late guys, but I think that's right), so Carter has to be pretty selective to get to this accusation. It's QB and only QB.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Considering that Eli Manning hasn't missed a snap since 2004 that's a silly argument. How many QBs had their first black QB start in that time frame?
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
D oteams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
The Giants drafted Saquon to be the face of the franchise.. Â
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Considering that Eli Manning hasn't missed a snap since 2004 that's a silly argument. How many QBs had their first black QB start in that time frame?
I meant hadn't to that point and hasn't missed a start rather than a snap.
That it's possible to think that Cris Carter is way off base, believe that race baiting happens, and also believe that claiming "librals" are conspiring to hold black people down is asinine.
That it's possible to think that Cris Carter is way off base, believe that race baiting happens, and also believe that claiming "librals" are conspiring to hold black people down is asinine.
Damaging to a legit issue that has existed in the NFL for decades. Black QBs have been disenfranchised by teams for so long but that trend has started to change lately. this is what happens when reporters end up emotionally invested in the player being drafted.
Decades ago, we had Moon & McNair & Cunningham. Now we have Wilson. Also Doug Williams won an SB. All pretty good. I'd add Cam as having been successful (tho many say he sucks) and Watson a wait-and-see, but...
Lets look at quality. Vick? Quincy Carter? RGIII? Geno? Freeman? Winston? Taylor? Dak? Josh Johnson? Maybe those available are always hurt or just suck? I'd accuse this view as being 'good QB-ist' (and it's despicable!)
And apparently it's NOT showing up to the combine out of shape, being relatively immobile, that kept Haskins from NYG (ignoring Jones' high work ethic & toughness for a sec). It's cuz he's black (ignoring Geno starting for Eli...facts meh)
Damaging to a legit issue that has existed in the NFL for decades. Black QBs have been disenfranchised by teams for so long but that trend has started to change lately. this is what happens when reporters end up emotionally invested in the player being drafted.
No. The issue at hand is the slanderous accusation that the New York Giants are run by a bunch of bigots.
Am I getting this right? Is that how it works? Let me know because I'm new to this.
Damn. Now you’re just making stuff up. How am I a bigot? I would love to hear how you concluded that from my comments. All I said was I do not agree with your initial argument.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
They would never have even visited Haskins at his pro day or had him up to NY for a visit. They wouldn’t have considered him at all.
Also, I don’t get why it’s wrong or a negative to want QBs to be like Eli. We’ve done pretty darn well by Eli. Not just the SBs or the longevity but in how he carries himself publicly and by how he represents the franchise. I hope every QB we ever have is like Eli.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
(1) Look at who was playing quarterback in collegiate ranks for each decade in the past 100 years. (i.e., how many black quarterbacks were in the NFL Draft in 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980?)
(2) Phil Simms and Eli Manning have been the starting quarterback of the New York Giants for 30 of the last 40 years.
...including some whose mission statements are devoted to human and civil rights, have found implicit bias to be a factor in their own recruiting and hiring for certain positions.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
Please don't mention Ryan Perrilloux... do you know how many times I had to update the roster (roster page, transactions page, salary page, etc.) the one year they signed him and cut him EVERY (blanking) week??!!!
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
but I agree with those in this thread making the point that a team can have a heavily black roster, yet nonetheless exhibit bias in considering black players unsuited for the QB position. Clearly throughout football history that's been common, at every level.
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
The face of this franchise going forward is one Saquon Barkley.
Not really. Blogger is trying to play is safe. He wants to say the Giants are a racist organization, but "they don't really mean it. Their bias is subconscious. But maybe some introspection and training may 'fix' their inner racism."
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
You're a fucking idiot. Who cares what a mans skin color is - YOU are the bigot asshole.
But Max Kellerman said this months ago before they passed on Haskins ... The giants should have notified ESPN a retraction and an apology was required of they would only do the required with ESPN/ABC etc (no interviews etc) ..
Since Fri. afternoon the entertainment value of this site has been off the charts..We,ve had the sane, insane the informed and the clueless.. morons and normal folks.. Ironman and Capt. stopped by for a sec..one of the GoT dragons did a fly by..Jets fans Skin fans..The Yanks threw in a nice 3 days in the Bay.. The Klan checked in a while ago..so in closing THANK YOU to one and All! just outstanding diverse entertainment.
RE: The topic of race generally doesn't yield a productive Â
discussion on BBI because there's always a side that is incapable of having a nuanced approach to the issue.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Another comment well said. I do find interesting those who are, as you say, incapable, of having this conversation. What makes this conversation so difficult for them without jumping to extremes?
Please don't mention Ryan Perrilloux... do you know how many times I had to update the roster (roster page, transactions page, salary page, etc.) the one year they signed him and cut him EVERY (blanking) week??!!!
Lol I remember it well, who was the OL that they kept signing to replace Perrilloux? Was it Selvish Capers?
It's safe to say, Chris Carter is an idiot and this, once again, is a prime example of why. Just utter nonsense, quite frankly.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
Carter has always been a race baiter. I remember he resented Sehorn's skill and attributed his minimal popularity being because he's white. Fuck him and his fall guy.
1) Carter hates the Giants for the 2000 title game obliteration. To hell with implicit bias, he has a fucking explicit bias courtesy of Kerry Collins and his five passing TD'S. Damn, what as ass kicking that was 19 years ago. Sour grapes.
2) I saw this racist idea bullshit regarding Haskins and Jones on Twitter. Twitter is like an open sore growing and becoming more and more infected. It may well cause a sepsis that destroys the United States.
3) From 11/21/04 until now, Eli has started every game except the McAdon't benching.
The starting QB that week was Geno Smith, who I think is a black man. So literally, the one game that Eli didn't start in 15 years the QB1 was the paid backup for that season, a black guy.
4) Making accusations of racism is very popular today. Thing is you can't prove a negative, the burden should be on the accuser to prove a person or institution is racist. I guess here the evidence is that the Giants took Jones over Haskins? Weak sauce argument for sure. The accusers who lob these types of slanders never pay a price for their actions.
The idea that the Giants are a racist organization is bullshit and requires major evidence to even start the conversation.
It's safe to say, Chris Carter is an idiot and this, once again, is a prime example of why. Just utter nonsense, quite frankly.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
I can...plainly. You're a fool.
It's hard to ignore the possiblity that someone said no to a black qb Â
didn’t look to have Ken O’Brien speed back there, I strongly hope they would have put him ahead.
The irony here is the stereotype white qb prospect was faster and more mobile the the stereotype black one who had the better arm and thiucal QB tools.
All the talking heads are bad but Carter and Wright are the worst. Â
Watch this first clip of First Things First with Chris Carter and Nick Wright w/ Mangini which aired THE DAY OF THE DRAFT. The conversation they are having is "WOULD THE GIANTS BE MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE IF THEY ON HASKINS FOR JONES?". Mangini and Carter are arguing about all the intangibles that go into picking a QB and that there is so much more to it than stats. Basically, they are agreeing on why the Giants might pick Jones over Haskins with legitimate arguments. Nick won't let go on the stats.
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
Race had nothing to do with the pick, but teams being mostly black doesn’t mean they can’t be biased when it comes to the QB position.
Up until recently teams actually thought that way.
RE: All the talking heads are bad but Carter and Wright are the worst. Â
Watch this first clip of First Things First with Chris Carter and Nick Wright w/ Mangini which aired THE DAY OF THE DRAFT. The conversation they are having is "WOULD THE GIANTS BE MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE IF THEY ON HASKINS FOR JONES?". Mangini and Carter are arguing about all the intangibles that go into picking a QB and that there is so much more to it than stats. Basically, they are agreeing on why the Giants might pick Jones over Haskins with legitimate arguments. Nick won't let go on the stats.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
Thanks for posting this, just shows how ridiculous all of these mock drafts, etc. are. And who the hell is Nick Wright anyway? I love seeing him act like he knows more than guys like Mangini who have actually coached in the NFL.
Not really. Blogger is trying to play is safe. He wants to say the Giants are a racist organization, but "they don't really mean it. Their bias is subconscious. But maybe some introspection and training may 'fix' their inner racism."
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
He is not saying that the Giants are racist organization. Nor is he playing it safe.
You said above:
Quote:
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
I will respond: you are not understanding that correctly.
One, Carter did not say the team is run by bigots. And two, most importantly, I don't think anyone in this thread that you are arguing with has said that Carter is objectively right.
What Carter said (and mind you this applies to all people white/black/Asian/etc), and what most people I see in this thread in this thread are saying, is that implicit bias on the basis of groups is real.
I do see what you're seeing Cris Carter as saying. That the Giants are an organization run by people with raical influences. This title is misleading however because that is not what Cris said. He said: Link
As you can see in that video, Cris actually does not even say that Giants were wrong to select Jones over Haskins. The only thing he says is that a black QB would not have had the same warts on his resume over-looked. That is a completely different argument. Cris never said it was wrong to overlook those warts. And he never said that if you like Jones as a prospect over Haskins you are feeling so only because of a racial bias.
So in the end, I do think you are responding to neither the arguments people are actually presenting to you, nor what Cris Carter said this title says he did.
As an aside, I will note for you: I personally disliked Haskins as an NFL QB. I would not have drafted him in the 1st round at all. Maybe not even the 2nd round. I don't think he'll have a long term successful career. Could I have been impacted by implicit bias? Yes. Do I think my opinion was objective and not impacted by that (in any material way, at least)? Yes. So I do think you can recognize that implicit exists - I view it has objectively so - and also like Jones over Haskins.
(Also, apologies in advance, I'm about to watch GOT so probably won't respond tonight.)
any chance Giants preferred Jones, because of his having started 3X more games than Haskins?
Why wasn't Cris carter crying racism when Eagles cut him loose for being a drunk?
It has become very popular in the SJW culture to perpetuate victimhood. Sad.
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
You don't understand me correctly and I already made that clear.
I said two things: One, I did not agree with your argument that because the majority of players in the NFL are black there is no bias against black QBs. There is not a strong correlation between the two. The NFL has had a history of bias against black QBs even though the league has been predominantly black for quite some time. I think that's indisputable.
Two, I clearly stated that I do not feel the Giants are a racist or bigoted organization. They have never said or done anything to my knowledge that would give me any indication that they are.
Do some people in their organization have a bias against black QBs? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if some do. However, having a bias is a long way from being a racist and a bigot.
I also stated that Cris Carter's comments were ignorant. I couldn't disagree with him more. His comments pissed me off and are dangerous and counterproductive.
I also don't feel the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black. I actually think had the Cardinals not drafted Murray the Giants would have gone after him. And I would have been much, much happier with Murray than Jones.
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
..................................................................................................................................
Stop it you know damn well what he saying. You keep using that same stupid statement to avoid addressing his question of why the Giants have not had a black starting QB? I can recognize who the tru bigot is and it's not this guy. I'm not one who plays the race card especially in sports but your code talk is giving serious bigotry vibes.
I am having trouble understanding you because you are not making yourself clear.
Let's keep this simple. Do you think John Mara, Steve Tisch, Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and Dave Gettleman have racial biases against black quarterbacks?
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
Once again, you are ignoring my original point: I simply did not agree with your argument. Somehow you ran with that and accused me of rooting for a racist and bigoted organization and that I must be a racist and bigot based on association. You need to own that.
Also, your accusation is pretty offensive, but you believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better. I will leave it at that.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
Since they KICKED HIS ASS. there is nothing he says about the Giants that is fair or accurate. Its shameful that he plays this race card at the expense of a young man who just wants to play football. CC has much to learn. He owes DJ an apology which I highly doubt he will ever hear.
Carter grow up.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that.
Like I said earlier, race had nothing to do with THIS pick but there are teams that wouldn’t overlook the same warts of a black quarterback. This has nothing to do with the Giants specifically, Carter didn’t say the Giants took Jones because he was white.
You open yourself up to all kinds of nutty theories.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
RE: Cris Carter has been pissed off at the Giants Â
Since they KICKED HIS ASS. there is nothing he says about the Giants that is fair or accurate. Its shameful that he plays this race card at the expense of a young man who just wants to play football. CC has much to learn. He owes DJ an apology which I highly doubt he will ever hear.
Carter grow up.
Fun fact about Cris Carter and perhaps the only decent thing that Buddy Ryan ever did in his life. Carter had drug problems in Philly and had failed another test. The Eagles were releasing him, but Ryan didn't want to give the reason why (drugs) so he would have a chance to remain in the league. So he made the famous comment "all he does is catch TDs", basically saying his production was limited to jump throws in the end zone.
When he was released, the Giants put in a claim and Parcells wanted him on the Giants and Carter was about to head to the Meadowlands. But the Vikings put in a claim and he ended up in Minnesota. So he almost ended up with the Giants (he wanted to go to them) and ended up having a Hall of Fame career with the Vikings. But after the NFC Championship 41-0 wipeout, he has never had a nice thing to say about the organization.
If things went the way he wanted to in 1989, and he wins a ring with the Giants in 1990 (perhaps in 1989 if he was on that team), I wonder if we hear things like this from him.
Why in world would you watch, support, and financially assist a corporate entity that you think is guilty of racism?
What is wrong with you?
Holy fuck man. I specifically said the Giants didn’t make this pick with racial bias. I don’t think I can make that any clearer.
There are however teams that wouldn’t overlook Jones warts on a black QB. For the fifth time, this doesn’t apply to the Giants and the pick of Daniel Jones.
RE: When you make a pick as bizzare as Jones at #6 Â
You open yourself up to all kinds of nutty theories.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
Leading up to this draft, the New York Giants were WIDELY rumored to be either drafting a defensive lineman/edge rusher or Daniel Jones. There was FADING media speculation that they would be drafting Haskins.
The selection of Daniel Jones should surprise NO ONE... if you were actually paying attention.
Giants fans were pissed off that they drafted Jones over Haskins. They were pissed off that they drafted Jones over Josh Allen.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
1.) The Giants are not a racist organization
2.) They have not had an African American starting QB due to circumstance; they have only had a few QB’s in the last 30 years
3.) They have had multiple African American QB’s on their roster in the last several years
4.) They did not draft Haskins because they had Jones rated higher. Jones is faster and has more experience than Haskins.
5.) The Giants are not the only team to pass on Haskins. The Broncos, Dolphins, and Bengals, all QB needy teams, watched him pass by.
Are we judging players now? Or just race? Or rather by what Archie wants? Maybe the maras made the pick?
Who’s model is it now? Jones will sit his entire career behind Eli?
This shit is confusing to my simple mind.... I better go watch ESPN or Fox sports to learn about the game.....
Dep, my mom called me today and asked me about Daniel Jones. She said they were tearing him apart on ESPN. I mentioned to her what Bill Polian, Pat Kirwan, Gil Brandt, etc. were saying and that was completely new information to her.
ESPN has become a joke. It simply tries to build up controversy in order to generate interest in their ever increasingly shitty product.
Daniel Jones may suck ass. But is it the "medias" job to convince fans that he is a pathetic excuse for a QB before he ever throws a professional pass? And unfortunately too many fans are acting like sheep and falling for it.
Carter is still realling from the the Gs 2001 whoopin of Minn Â
After watching the pre-draft press conference it was clear Gettleman valued a QB who faced adversity on the field. He also mentioned being QB in the NY market & wanting to see adversity. But let’s all just ignore that.
If it's your position that the Giants are not a racist organization, then I agree with you.
Eric you are a mensch. You stood up for your friends against false accusers. You could have shied away but instead you pushed back with truth and reason. We’d all be lucky to have a friend who would do for us what you’ve been doing for the past several hours. Godspeed.
We should just delete this thread - its going nowhere Â
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
I disagree sir. So we all need to toe the company line just so a now multi-millionaire football player won’t maybe have his feelings hurt by people saying the Giants reached for him?
Also, this franchise was set back by a half-decade just from 2 failed top 10 picks in a row (Flowers and Apple) . A failed top 10 pick spent on a QB (especially when the guy some people went as far to say was the best player in the draft was still in the board) is a miss that could set the franchise back by closer to a decade. People invest money, time, and energy into rooting for the Giants so I think everyone has a right to express his/her opinion about the pick. No one is saying Jones killed anyone and criticizing the pick is not akin to that. Honestly if he can’t handle criticism and scrutiny now then he’s not going make it in NYC market anyway, so there’s no use in saying “come on let’s go easy on the kid”. I don’t know how this pick will turn out and I will root like hell for him to succeed, but I guarantee you a lot of the posters telling everyone to “go easy on him” and defending the pick will be the same people calling for his head when he throws 30 picks in 2021 and the Giants miss the playoffs for the 10th time in 11 years.
And before you call me a pessimist think about it this way: Jones was good at Duke, not great. He started for 3 years and by his final year he was still just a decent QB. From people I know who watch ACC football (not Duke fans) most of them say they thought of Jones as the 3rd or 4th best QB in the ACC. He did not strike fear in the hearts of opposing fans, and that is troublesome to me. So if in 3 years he was no better than simply decent in college, what are the chances he is going to be great in the NFL within the next 3 years. And what are the chances Saquon is going to want to re-sign with a losing team at that point? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go the way of Barry Sanders and take a chance on a losing organization for the 2nd half of my career, especially when he can go get a 9 figure contract elsewhere.
I’m ranting at this point but These are the reasons we are scrutinizing and criticizing this pick. It is not just “unprofessional” fan opinions, it is backed up by plenty of experts as well. People saying “clearly DG knows what he’s doing we have to trust him” forget the fact that a lot of people said the same thing about Jerry Reese (and at least Reese had won a couple Super Bowls at that point).
Gettleman and Shumur At 5-11 have done nothing to validate such unconditional trust, and I’m sure I’m going to get plenty of personal attacks for this post, which is creepy because I myself haven’t personally anyone I’ve simply stated my opinion on a message board. But the common theme around here seems to be that anyone who thinks maybe other NFL teams and GMs might have things better figured out than the Giants right now needs to be called a fool or an idiot or a buffoon etc.
RE: We should just delete this thread - its going nowhere Â
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
I explicitly said the opposite.
I said that was how you were seeing the comment, but that was not how the comment was actually made. And I explicitly did not accuse the Giants of anything (and neither did Carter in the clip).
I do not think your responding "bullshit" demonstrates a good faith attempt to further this conversation. I get it, it's a message board, and probably not the best place for this conversation. Nevertheless, I raised multiple points re the concerns you've brought up that I'd be happy to discuss further if you want to respond to them. If not, that's fine too.
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
+1
I literally thought of Eric in this thread while watching Jorah battling the zombie horde.
if Carter walks this back. I'm sure the NFL won't like one of its franchises called racist. I'll bet the NFL was on the phone to Carter's bosses in no time.
Clicks and looks. You know what's easy to get those? Racial controversy and sports. Chris Carter is just "feathering his bed". The idea that the Giants drafted Jones ahead of Haskins because of race is out and out laughable.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
for standing up to this Salem Witch Trial exercise of flinging damning accusations without a shred of evidence and in defiance of all logic. One guy here lists Giants QBs and suggests there is something sinister about their all having been southerners. Except he concocts this list by omitting all the non-Southerners: Dave Brown, Kurt Warner, Kent Graham, Kerry Collins, Jeff Hostetler, and no doubt many others pre-Simms. Another guy, staring in the face of devastating arguments backs down to "unconscious" bias, an accusation against which no one can ever demonstrate his innocence. Another says, well yes, the Giants have had blacks in all kinds of key roles but not as "face of the franchise." What does that mean? At different moments different stars have been prominent. With all due respect to Simms, when I recall the first Superbowl teams, I think of LT and then Banks and Carson. Later, Eli, okay, but also Strahan and "Thunder and Lightning." Still others invoke "racism" in the NFL or in football or in America, as if the fact that racism exists somewhere means that all are infected by it--or at least all white people. Is there any accusation for which some people demand less proof than this one?
RE: When you make a pick as bizzare as Jones at #6 Â
You open yourself up to all kinds of nutty theories.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
OK, so what is the so-called conspiracy theory that you are advocating here? It is your position that for an NFL team to draft Jones over 6 other ACC QBs requires an explanation? What are your thoughts on why this happened? You are stating that this pick is fodder for conspiracy, and I want to know what that conspiracy is and whether or not you believe it.
Did he forget the NY Giants started a Black QB over a Giant Legend that broke his iron man Streak . I always tried to give Carter a break because he can be a great commentator but then he pulls off his mask and lets you know he acts like a bigot himself and reminds you of his hatred for the Giants . ESPN is another liberal shit hole .
Maybe it's me I didn't want Haskins but it certainly wasn't because of the color of his skin .
Some people like Carter just can't help themselves .
What a fool he is really just a fool .
And the college scouting director.
RE: And you gotta love any article that quotes Jalen Ramsey Â
for hard hitting social commentary. Just shut the fuck up with this nonsense already...
Ramsey is a POS . Remember him running into Barkley on the
sidelines and Barkley blasted him then of course Jalen got up in his face running his mouth after he got punked screw him too he can't keep that trap shut bet dollars to donuts Jalen
will end up in trouble somehow you can just smell it .
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Not sure why I am bothering to post on this thread but here goes... Â
Over the past 30 years of my career in software development, I have been responsible for hiring somewhere around 1200 people. When I hire people I could care less what color their skin is, I have hired from every racial background. However, it has been extremely rare for me to hire Latinos and Blacks... If you look at my hiring history, it will definitely be skewed to Indians, Chinese, and Russians (though not recently)... On the surface you can claim I have a racial bias. But if you dig deeper, you will find that it has been extremely rare for Latinos and Blacks to be presented to me as candidates. Early in my career the vast majority of candidates who were presented to me were either White or Chinese. Over the latter has it has been overwhelmingly a different racial/ethnic group.
Is there a systemic racial bias within the agencies that submit the candidates, and in HR who screens them first? I would not know. But by the time it gets to me, my only job is to pick the best ones available for the job at hand and produce something. As I said, I couldn't care less what they look like, as long as they are the best people to help me get the job done. Not once did I ever keep track of how many people of a particular race or ethnic background that I hired, and oh maybe I should make the next one from a different group, just to be diverse. That would be asinine, and counterproductive. Clearly, the bias in my hiring was dependent on what candidates were available to me to hire.
The NFL, and by extension the Giants have been in a similar situation. Was/is there a systemic racial bias in high schools and college to push black players to positions other than QB? There seems to be so yes. The result is that by the time the NFL comes knocking, there have not been many black QBs with the proper level of coaching and experience to make them ready for the NFL. So not having black QBs for an NFL team or having had very few is not a matter of the team being bigots, but rather a function of the candidates available.
There seems to be less of this going on now, and we see more QB of various ethnic backgrounds now. Interestingly, there still seems to be a preponderance of white QBs. Does the racial bias still exist? At this point, I don't know. But as a Giants fan, its not really my problem, I want the team to get the best players. Just like I wanted to hire the best software developers, I don't care what their skin color is. And the team should feel and behave the same way.
I will say that in recent years that the industry has become dominated by one particular ethnic/racial group. This has happened in parallel with the "diversity movement". Not long ago, a company, for whom I no longer work, put out statistics to tout how well they are doing with regards to diversity... The report literally showed that technology was comprised of 92% of people from this one particular racial/ethnic background, 3% white women, 2% white men, I forget what the breakdown of the other 3% was... The thing is I look at that and say "That is NOT diversity". I've known quite a few white men in the industry who were very talented, some that I have hired, and they were pushed out of their job, never to work in the industry again. That's a problem, and that is NOT diversity, that is also a form a racism.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I don't mind having a nuanced conversation about race Â
But at the end of the day every single person is nuanced in their own way, and there is no escaping that. What is more, it is unrealistic to expect that at any point in human history or the future that people will not be nuanced. So it is somewhat pointless to discuss the nuances, but rather to call out the real cases of injustice. Calling out highly nuanced situations is counterproductive, it angers people, and takes away from the discussion of the burning issues. Deal with the blatant acts of hate, cut those cancers out od society first. Then its worthwhile taking on the next level and the next and so on. Otherwise the message gets too diluted.
and so are those here who agree with the position he is taking. Still... since I am a first amendment supporter, Cris and some of our home grown dim wits are entitled to their opinions.
Someone else mentioned this earlier but Barkley is the face of the franchise and they are lucky to have a great kid like Saquan who seems to do all of the right things.
Final note for the race baiters here...
This racist organization (LOL) benched the fan's beloved Eli and ended his starting streak in favor of a black QB.
The Giants have had Ronnie Barnes as part of the Giants "family" for decades. At one point, it was said that Ronnie Barnes was one of the most influential people in the organization. The Mara's have so much love and respect for him that Ronnie is who Wellington asked to be at his bedside when his hours were coming to an end.
Some of you people will go out of your way to find racism everywhere.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Nice post fatman. You and I seem to end up on the opposite side of things, but I could not agree more.
Chris Carter’s comments do indeed get you thinking Â
I will say that in recent years that the industry has become dominated by one particular ethnic/racial group. This has happened in parallel with the "diversity movement". Not long ago, a company, for whom I no longer work, put out statistics to tout how well they are doing with regards to diversity... The report literally showed that technology was comprised of 92% of people from this one particular racial/ethnic background, 3% white women, 2% white men, I forget what the breakdown of the other 3% was... The thing is I look at that and say "That is NOT diversity". I've known quite a few white men in the industry who were very talented, some that I have hired, and they were pushed out of their job, never to work in the industry again. That's a problem, and that is NOT diversity, that is also a form a racism.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I understand what you are saying. However, implicit bias is more impactful upon others when it comes from me, a white man, than it would be if I were black or a woman or both. Women and minorities have to put up with every day shit that white men don't have to. I respect your sentiment but let's not suggest that we are all on a level playing field. Because of this, we are not all going to react the same way to events. If we can recognize and respect each other, that would be helpful.
So I do not agree that the Giants organization is any more racist than any other well meaning organization in a position of power. But let's not suggest that white privilege doesn't exist. The NFL is one of those areas in our society (along with the military) where merit rules, so integration is farther along than, say, on wall street.
Daniel Jones reeks of white privilege. Duke does as well. I think this is really unfair to him as a person and I hope this does not become a defining narrative. I also don't approve of the systemic racism that clearly exists in our society.
Oh shit wait, did Carter relapse? Shit, hope he gets himself into treatment...
But then they finally met him and it was like Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. It was really embarrassing, Shurmer tried to give him his drink order.
And the college scouting director.
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Certainly played a part when the Franchise Hero was benched in favor of Gene Fucking Smith
So you are saying Mara and Tisch are racists? Or Gettleman? Which is it?
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About the former GM being black
And the college scouting director.
and the QB who replaced Eli in 2017.
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
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There is a racial problem when it comes to Giants and QBs but I don’t believe that is what played into Jones over Haskins.
So you are saying Mara and Tisch are racists? Or Gettleman? Which is it?
Must be all three!
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In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
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There is a racial problem when it comes to Giants and QBs but I don’t believe that is what played into Jones over Haskins.
Certainly played a part when the Franchise Hero was benched in favor of Gene Fucking Smith
Just to be clear before anyone gets offended, he's "Geno Fucking Smith" because he's a pitiful QB. Not because he's a black QB.
The story was about making the highest paid player in NFL history a victim.
Truth.
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
The story was about making the highest paid player in NFL history a victim.
Wait wait wait...the longest active streak is being broken by *choice* in a lost season by a coach who is obviously, woefully in over his head, and you want the story to be about the skin color of the career back up whose most notable accomplishment to that point was getting knocked the fuck out by a teammate over a video game?
Right on.
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
So you are rooting for a racist team? Nice.
What does this even mean?
Dave Brown was from Jersey.
yeah, but that was before they knew he was black, lol. And let's not forget how Eli tried to make a fool of that young Black guy, what's his name, in the credit card commercials last season.
Quote:
Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, Simms, Manning, Jones. All from the same region. Don’t know if there’s anything to it, but it’s interesting,
What does this even mean?
Dave Brown was from Jersey.
Brown is the one exception. Of course, he went to Duke.
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
What—in your estimation—is the reason the Giants have only had one black QB start in their centuryish or being around?
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wasn’t about that, and what took so long.
The story was about making the highest paid player in NFL history a victim.
Wait wait wait...the longest active streak is being broken by *choice* in a lost season by a coach who is obviously, woefully in over his head, and you want the story to be about the skin color of the career back up whose most notable accomplishment to that point was getting knocked the fuck out by a teammate over a video game?
Right on.
I’d buy the narrative of the career backup if he was in his 30s.
But Geno was still young, no reason not to take a shot with a guy who wasn’t too far removed from being a starter.
The NFL's farm system is college football.
It has only been the last two decades when we've seen the emergence of the black college quarterback.
Who has been the QB of the New York Giants for the last 15 years?
Do the fucking math.
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Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, Simms, Manning, Jones. All from the same region. Don’t know if there’s anything to it, but it’s interesting,
What does this even mean?
Dave Brown was from Jersey.
Kerry Collins was from Pennsylvania...although he might not be the best guy to bring up in this thread...
If anything is racial here it is privilege Duke/Princeton, etc, or the "familiarity" with the Mannings and such, and not many have access to that. We'd be kidding ourselves to say it is not out there, but it is kind of hard to pin all that on the Giants. What's more, if you really did evaluate jones at the top of your board, do your not pick him to avoid the perception? It is a very difficult problem.
Quote:And after ...who got fired for it????
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Gettleman should get a ton of thank you cards from members of the media this year. The amount of false narratives they’re throwing out about him just to get clicks is absurd, but glad our team could be of service keeping half assed journalists and commentators in business.
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In comment 14419367 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, Simms, Manning, Jones. All from the same region. Don’t know if there’s anything to it, but it’s interesting,
What does this even mean?
Dave Brown was from Jersey.
Brown is the one exception. Of course, he went to Duke.
Are you stupid?
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
If you don’t see the difference in the argument then I can’t help you.
You think the Giants are racists.
Or you are rooting for an NFL team that you think is racist.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
Quote:
In comment 14419367 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Connerly, Tittle, Tarkenton, Simms, Manning, Jones. All from the same region. Don’t know if there’s anything to it, but it’s interesting,
What does this even mean?
Dave Brown was from Jersey.
Kerry Collins was from Pennsylvania...although he might not be the best guy to bring up in this thread...
Jeff Hostetler too. Kent Graham is from Illinois.
Chris Carter is a dipshit.
The Giants had a black gm. If there was a racial bias against black QBs was there not one against black managers? These supposed racist are on with a black man calling the shots, but not ok with a black man throwing the football?
Why did they bring Haskins to dinner if they have no interest in black QBs?
You think the Giants are racists.
Or you are rooting for an NFL team that you think is racist.
The disturbing part is your reading comprehension. I never said the team was racist. I was pointing out the flaw in your argument. The qb position is different from all others, if you want to deny that go ahead and be my guest
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
Simple as that.
Quote:
In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
Cmon Eric. One position in the NFL has far far more public importance than any other, as well being the GM like Reese. Eli is the face of the Giants. The Giant fan base skews older and white. Mara is super sensitive to fan reaction. It’s been proven that losing doesn’t cost him any money. And is it a coincidence that Jones is physically a clone of Eli, apparently even in personality.
The worst. Total tool
My guess is this is ESPN trying to drum up some more clicks and endless dumb conversation. Never mind the fact that Haskins showed up to the combine out of shape, said he would run a 40 at his pro day because he was injured at the time of the combine (excuse for the shitty 40 time) and then never actually ran it. And then hosted a fee based draft party (said he wanted to stay at home and not attend the draft to be with family), along with the league “done messed up” comment.
Again, Carter is a dope
Ronnie Barnes Pic - ( New Window )
Yeah the were... but after the combine, his pro day, and a couple of sit down meetings and dinners with him, they discovered he is a black man!
Simple as that.
they hate us because they aint us!
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
Cmon Eric. One position in the NFL has far far more public importance than any other, as well being the GM like Reese. Eli is the face of the Giants. The Giant fan base skews older and white. Mara is super sensitive to fan reaction. It’s been proven that losing doesn’t cost him any money. And is it a coincidence that Jones is physically a clone of Eli, apparently even in personality.
Reeses face was all over ESPN. I call bullshit.
Secondly, I'm tired of this Jones=Eli bullshit. Jones is a very different player. Eli is a pure pocket passer. Jones is much more mobile and physical. Their games are not similar at all. They are both white men coached by the same guy, that's it.
Now the argument has pivoted towards them only being racist at the QB position.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
People from different backgrounds view the world through different prisms. That is OK. The point is to try to understand.
There is an alignment of color and privilege here that may come to mind, especially if you are black. I don't think the Giants are racist here and I am concerned it may tarnish our new QB if carried too far. He was not on the Duke Lacrosse team. He is not Dave Brown or Christian Laettner. But we need to understand where this comes from and not amplify it.
I am not saying you are amplifying it Eric, quite the opposite, but all the action and reaction is a symptom of a much larger issue.
Lawrence Taylor.
Wasn’t Em Tunnell one of the first African American players in the NFL?
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I can play this game too.
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
White Privilege. That, and he owns the site.
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In comment 14419448 Eric from BBI said:
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I can play this game too.
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
White Privilege. That, and he owns the site.
Lol, you win the thread Klatuu.
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
Identity politics has warped your minds.
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I can play this game too.
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
You do realize that this is his site?
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I can play this game too.
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
Perhaps the stupidest and funniest post ever on BBI
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
Identity politics has warped your minds.
And yet none of them outed these supposed racist owners either?
Maybe Carter is back on the sauce.
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the Giants were giving Haskins serious consideration.
Yeah the were... but after the combine, his pro day, and a couple of sit down meetings and dinners with him, they discovered he is a black man!
They saw that for the biggest week of his young life he came in out of shape and overweight and determined he wasn't worthy of consideration to be the next franchise QB of the NY Giants.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
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In comment 14419448 Eric from BBI said:
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I can play this game too.
You are rooting for a racist football team.
You are clearly a bigot.
How is this guy and admin?
You do realize that this is his site?
Nope had no idea, come here for info and to share opinions
Made me think of the line in Blazing Saddles: "The Sheriff is a ni..."
Yet 80% of our draft were black guys... INJUSTICE! Racism! (sarcasm off) -
So you are saying that Giants are catering the notoriously racially non-diverse and redneck New York and New Jersey fanbase? (sarcasm off)
And again, you are exposing yourself as a supporter of bigots if you believe this.
The NFL's farm system is college football.
It has only been the last two decades when we've seen the emergence of the black college quarterback.
Who has been the QB of the New York Giants for the last 15 years?
Do the fucking math.
I was actually asking about the last 95 years not just the last 15. Twenty seven teams seemed to be able to find quarterbacks of color before Eli was drafted. Just curious what you think happened happened the other 80 years?
This, if we were such a racist organization we would have picked one of the many top rated QB’s in last year’s draft over Barkley. That means Denver and Cincy, and Miami must all be racist as well since they needed QB’s and all passed on Haskins.
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Though we have a history of posts which I guess makes it unsurprising.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
Point out where I made such an accusation? You continuously quote me as a bigot that believes the team is racist. All I did was address your initial argument (which was stupid btw) and then you proceed to spew nonsense
Dude, I'm just trying to stay off this thread (except for a couple of jokes) so I don't get banned again. It ain't easy.
But, if I was going to do another parody, it would probably be of "Ebony & Ivory."
Skin color aside, they are incredibly different prospects. One played 3 years with a bad cast and the other played one year with a great cast. The choice to pick one over the other can be justified just on the numbers and what they did on the field. There's no reason to make it more than that.
Honestly, I was going to start a separate thread about Jones at some point, but Jones is a super safe QB for the Giants, and it has nothing to do with the color of his skin. The Giants want a QB who is going to run their offense, fit in their system and not make mistakes, quick passes, short passes, etc. Bringing in Tate and extending Shepard, 2 guys who are underneath WRs, and Tate who has a good RAC, fits this scheme.
What we know about Jones is that he's not going to wow anyone with any particular skill. He is pretty much ok in all areas and comes from the Cutcliffe coaching which means the Giants coaches won't have to do too much to get him ready to play in the NFL. This year is a transition year with Eli and the Giants are hoping not to have to hit a reset button in 2020, but rather have a smooth transition. I think they pretty much know what Jones is going to do.
This is a typical, Giants conservative pick at QB since they don't like surprises. Getting a Cutcliffe QB, after being with Eli for 15 years, to run an offense that will fit his skillset and he will likely ultimately become a game manager QB, who we all hope has a higher upside at the end of all this.
So the real question is, Jones or Haskins if we are going with Carter's accusation. I saw Godeep13 post on this thread, and I know he posted a thread earlier in last week which had some good asshat info in there, and was deleted to protect his source. As I recall, Godeep13 is African American and he said that Haskins' body type looks to be one in which he is going to end up being a heavier QB. Not a Jared Lorenzon just a big fat guy, but that is what Haskins' build, as he gets older, he's not going to slim down. You want a more mobile QB to move around in the pocket, hit quick passes, maybe scramble for a first down as needed, etc. Jones will do that better than Haskins, though Haskins' arm will likely always be stronger.
For me personally, I would have been excited to see a Kyler Murray here only because the Giants have not had a weapon like that at QB maybe since Tarkinton. Hostetler was the last scrambling QB, that was nearly 30 years ago. But I don't think the Giants are racist. Maybe they need Cutcliffe to recruit an African American QB at Duke ;)
So the team that has hired a black GM, black director college scouting, hired black coordinators, hired black scouts and other front office personnel, whose roster has been predominately black for decades, have decided to conspiratorially prevent a black man from ever becoming a quarterback of the team?
So Jerry Reese (who is black) and Marc Ross (who is black) went along with this?
Identity politics has warped your minds.
No. First, every NFL team is predominantly black. Second, to me racism means that race is a factor in a decision or judgement. I rarely call anyone a racist because race is an omnipresent factor in American life. That type of decision making would need to be persistent for me to call them a racist. People who claim to be color blind are just being blind. Do I believe picking Jones over Haskins was based exclusively or even primarily due to race? No. But I think it is just naive not to believe that in weighing which QB to pick, race and fan reaction did play a factor.
I suppose you believe that it isn’t fair to Mara and mgt. But our nations history makes it difficult for people like me not to see it as a possibility and something that is worth talking about.
How does an NFL team draft black quarterbacks when there were not many black quarterbacks in college football 30, 40, 50 years ago?
Nah, it's easier for you to slander without actually thinking this through.
I guess the Giants really should have drafted Jack Thompson over Phil Simms in 1979 so we wouldn't be having this conversation?
If you insist on hiring a person because their black then your being racist against other races.
HOLY SHIT.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
My thoughts exactly. Haha.
Pete Carroll says we’ll trade Russell Wilson (my favorite player in the NFL) for Jones ...
Does anyone think DG wouldn’t take those trades ?
Seriously ... this racial stuff is getting out of control.
But, besides Geno, I thought that we have had black QBs on the team at least through summer camp, in the past. Am I wrong there?
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
But, besides Geno, I thought that we have had black QBs on the team at least through summer camp, in the past. Am I wrong there?
Anthony Wright was one of the backups on the 2007 championship team, along with J-Load.
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May want to write another parody here. I’m thinking “We Didn’t Start The Fire”
Dude, I'm just trying to stay off this thread (except for a couple of jokes) so I don't get banned again. It ain't easy.
But, if I was going to do another parody, it would probably be of "Ebony & Ivory."
Nah. MJ’s “Black or White”
Go big or go home.
How does an NFL team draft black quarterbacks when there were not many black quarterbacks in college football 30, 40, 50 years ago?
Nah, it's easier for you to slander without actually thinking this through.
I guess the Giants really should have drafted Jack Thompson over Phil Simms in 1979 so we wouldn't be having this conversation?
The 27 other teams I mentioned. If it was so hard to find black QBs in the last 95 years. Why were they able to find black quarterbacks when the Giants couldn’t?
Hooray!!!
Matt in SGS Tweet - ( New Window )
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In comment 14419509 Mad Mike said:
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Though we have a history of posts which I guess makes it unsurprising.
No ones missing the point at all.
Some people want to throw libelous allegations around without fear of consequence. And without fully recognizing that when they do so, they are implicating themselves as bigots.
Point out where I made such an accusation? You continuously quote me as a bigot that believes the team is racist. All I did was address your initial argument (which was stupid btw) and then you proceed to spew nonsense
The point was clear enough. Suppose you cheer for a team that is run by bigots. Then you are part of the problem.
So for example, and speaking of myself only. I could not root for a team named after a racial slur (Redskins). People criticize the Chiefs for having thugs on their team (Hill, Hunt), but it is the Browns that took Hunt after they knew he was a problem. I have zero respect for the team that takes Hunt in after the Chiefs let him go.
The general point is that you can’t get all high and mighty when you root for an unprincipled team. If you think they are unprincipled you have to speak out or change your allegiance.
The world can offer some of the most beautiful metaphors out of the blue sometimes.
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In comment 14419530 Hsilwek92 said:
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May want to write another parody here. I’m thinking “We Didn’t Start The Fire”
Dude, I'm just trying to stay off this thread (except for a couple of jokes) so I don't get banned again. It ain't easy.
But, if I was going to do another parody, it would probably be of "Ebony & Ivory."
Nah. MJ’s “Black or White”
Go big or go home.
That song blows.
Maybe "Black & White" by Three Dog Night, or...you know what? "Everyday People," by Sly and the Family Stone. "Everyday QB's." Ha!
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The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
Barkley is the face of the franchise and I don’t see that changing
Hooray!!! Matt in SGS Tweet - ( New Window )
Hey, I just wanted Josh Allen ;)
The Giants were very interested in Mahomes two years ago but they weren't aggressive enough trading up for him. Does Mahomes count or should we just ignore that and continue trying to ruin the Giants reputation by making baseless accusations?
How long was Phil Simms here?
How long has Eli Manning been here?
Please tell me why you are endorsing a race-based organization like the New York Giants? Are you a closet QB white supremacist?
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
How long was Phil Simms here?
How long has Eli Manning been here?
Please tell me why you are endorsing a race-based organization like the New York Giants? Are you a closet QB white supremacist?
You seem very angry and I can tell that’s affecting your thinking because I’m pretty sure Phil Simms and Eli haven’t been the only two quarterbacks for the last century.
You are CLEARLY alleging the Giants are a bigoted organization, that they make their decisions based on race.
Own it. That's clearly your implication.
And by supporting the team, you are clearly OK with bigoted organizations.
I find that repulsive.
if he was black and had the same demeanor they would still have drafted him just the same ,race had nothing to do with it
it was his character they loved not his skin colour
But because this draft had Haskins and the Giants passed,factor in ESPN being the scum of the earth,and this is what you get.
College football did not start producing black quarterbacks en masse until the last couple of decades.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning were the QBs for this team for for a total of three decades.
How do you not understand that math?
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About the former GM being black
They fired him.
They fired him because they are racist? They hired him over DG and he worked in that role for a decade. He got fired because he ran about six shitty drafts in a row which put our team in the toilet of the NFL.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
Too quickly do we state racism even when it doesn’t exist. It prevents us from discussing real issues because we are immediately fractured. The Gmen chose Jones for their own reasons and I believe none of them are due to his skin color. These constant discussions about race and hatred are exhausting and counter productive.
College football did not start producing black quarterbacks en masse until the last couple of decades.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning were the QBs for this team for for a total of three decades.
How do you not understand that math?
Because he's using dialectic, not logic.
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I've said what I needed to say on this thread.
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
So it is your view that the Giants management has an implicit bias against black QBs, though not black players. You think drafting Jones over Haskins is evidence of that. I disagree.
If you think that there are elements of Jones upbringing and education that speak to white privilege, fine, but don’t tarnish the integrity of the management for no reason
I'll tell ya, racism is alive in America, and folks on both sides see through hate-filled eyes.
Asking for a friend.
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
This whole thing is insane. We are not the only team to pass on Haskins. Several QB needy teams passed on him.
HOLY SHIT.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Understood, but the reaction that matters is yet to come. And reaction on this site seems to be moving solidly in favor of Jones.
College football did not start producing black quarterbacks en masse until the last couple of decades.
Phil Simms and Eli Manning were the QBs for this team for for a total of three decades.
How do you not understand that math?
Again that’s only 3 out of 10 decades. But you know what...
Eric, I respect your opinions a lot. I can appreciate where you’re coming from. I wish I felt you could see things from my perspective. But that’s okay.
I don’t wish to continue going in circles since it seems we’re headed that way and those types of exchanges tend to devolve into personal attacks and name calling.
I hope we can agree to disagree here.
Right? Seriously though, make sure you have a white fall guy.
Bigotry will never die if folks refuse to move on from it. The amazing irony that those who tout its injustice keep it alive & well...
I'll tell ya, racism is alive in America, and folks on both sides see through hate-filled eyes.
well said
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
My company has a very white office. I know the people at the top aren't bigots, but that outcome is weird, too. And the industry we serve is aware of it, just as the NFL world is aware of the Giants odd lack of black men under center.
In an office, where people can have long careers but there's also a lot of turnover, you can get a diverse workplace if you make an effort to. I always try to hire an inclusive group (women, people of color, people with disabilities) when I assemble a team of freelancers. But the very white office is still weird to me.
The QB position on a football team is different. The Giants have had a couple of developmental black QBs (Andre Woodson and Ryan Perilloux, right?) who didn't pan out, and Josh Freeman and Geno Smith. But with Eli taking almost every snap for something like 15 years, opportunities have been limited. So they can be absolutely inclusive, un-biased, not racist one bit, and the outcome is still peculiar.
Having a black QB isn't a goal. Having a great QB is a goal. These roster spots aren't diversity hires. You go for the guy you think is best. But when it's time to choose, what are you looking at? It's normal for people to be more comfortable with people they perceive as being like themselves. What parts of Daniel Jones made the Giants more comfortable with him? He's the kind of QB they've had before. He comes from the same coach as the guy they've had. He's got other qualities they have had before and liked. That's pure football. Does his appearance figure in? It's very hard to separate that out, because unconscious bias can alter perception.
You look around the league and black QBs are routine now, except for the Giants, who almost never seem to have one on the field. I don't think it's racism, but the outcome is... odd.
But this isn't a case of that.
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FAN REACTION????? FAN REACTION???
HOLY SHIT.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Understood, but the reaction that matters is yet to come. And reaction on this site seems to be moving solidly in favor of Jones.
Do you not understand the fan reaction is because these fans feel Haskins is a better fit? Giants scouts, coaches and GM disagreed. Denver and Washington wanted him, too.
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FAN REACTION????? FAN REACTION???
HOLY SHIT.
HAVE YOU SEEN THE FAN REACTION TO THE GIANTS DRAFTING DANIEL JONES?
YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP.
Understood, but the reaction that matters is yet to come. And reaction on this site seems to be moving solidly in favor of Jones.
You have to hope he is good, what the hell is your point. I don’t think most people are in love with Jones, but he is the guy they took. People attempt to get behind it. I still don’t think most people here are happy with it, or are you attempting to say that if we cheer for him and not Haskins we are racist?
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In comment 14419351 bigblue12 said:
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About the former GM being black
They fired him.
They fired him because they are racist? They hired him over DG and he worked in that role for a decade. He got fired because he ran about six shitty drafts in a row which put our team in the toilet of the NFL.
But per my post above, the lack of black QBs on the field or on the roster for the Giants is peculiar. It looks bad. It may not mean much, but it looks bad regardless.
Because you couldn’t buy them until the 80s!
And they had a contract with two phone companies that netted 4 Super Bowls!
Are you a moron?
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No, I don't see the difference.
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
I've had the thought, but no, I don't think it's a bigoted organization. Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
My company has a very white office. I know the people at the top aren't bigots, but that outcome is weird, too. And the industry we serve is aware of it, just as the NFL world is aware of the Giants odd lack of black men under center.
In an office, where people can have long careers but there's also a lot of turnover, you can get a diverse workplace if you make an effort to. I always try to hire an inclusive group (women, people of color, people with disabilities) when I assemble a team of freelancers. But the very white office is still weird to me.
The QB position on a football team is different. The Giants have had a couple of developmental black QBs (Andre Woodson and Ryan Perilloux, right?) who didn't pan out, and Josh Freeman and Geno Smith. But with Eli taking almost every snap for something like 15 years, opportunities have been limited. So they can be absolutely inclusive, un-biased, not racist one bit, and the outcome is still peculiar.
Having a black QB isn't a goal. Having a great QB is a goal. These roster spots aren't diversity hires. You go for the guy you think is best. But when it's time to choose, what are you looking at? It's normal for people to be more comfortable with people they perceive as being like themselves. What parts of Daniel Jones made the Giants more comfortable with him? He's the kind of QB they've had before. He comes from the same coach as the guy they've had. He's got other qualities they have had before and liked. That's pure football. Does his appearance figure in? It's very hard to separate that out, because unconscious bias can alter perception.
You look around the league and black QBs are routine now, except for the Giants, who almost never seem to have one on the field. I don't think it's racism, but the outcome is... odd.
You're odd.
I think that the Giants purported racial bias says more about Carter’s own predujudice than anything about the Giants
Carter is projecting his own bias into the Giants selection
He cannot comprehend that the Giants could prefer Jones to Haskins
I guess that makes me a bigot because I did not like Haskins
But how would that explain that l love Murray ?
I guess that I am a selective bigot
I only like athletic black QBs and dislike stationary unathletic black QBs
I think that the Giants like winning and I do not think that wins come in colors
Eli never took a week off, so even if they had a black backup he'd have only been on the field in mop-up duty or garbage time, like David Carr and Ryan Nassib.
Pretty much true for me too.
The only good thing about this nonsense is that it reminds me stupidity is not confined to any particular political orientation.
You're odd.
That's true.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Well said.
Also, I don’t know if anyone is saying this was a conscious point. It’s not like their scouting report on Haskins was like “Black, so possibly not smart enough to be QB.” People are more saying it could have been subconscious racism which happens every day in various situations and people don’t even notice it.
Regardless of Haskins’s talent around him at Ohio St., ask yourself: would Daniel Jones also have thrown 50 TDs in that offense and broken Drew Brees’s record? He might have had a nice year but Haskins was truly impressive for being a 1st-year starter. That’s the other thing I don’t get. The knock on Haskins being a starter just one year. Like doesn’t that make what he did even more impressive? Daniel Jones started 3 years and it’s not like he lit it up his 3rd season thanks to all his experience. That tells me he may have already hit his ceiling, right? Also remember that Ohio St offense was not particularly perfectly suited for Haskins’s game, he tailored his game to fit the system and it worked out beautifully.
Maybe you could argue Jones is “smarter” because he went to Duke, but having a high football IQ is an entirely different thing, and Haskins we know had a high football IQ. Hell Lamar Jackson does an awful job in interviews but Ravens coaches raved about how quickly he could digest the playbook and process information and feedback and apply to his game on the field.
I’m not even saying Haskins is going to be a star, but he was clearly a better prospect and we at least know had the potential to be GREAT. Jones was good in college and they’re asking him to be GREAT in the NFL. I think they overthought this one, just my opinion, not my job though so we’ll see. We can’t know what all the factors were that went into the decision but it is true the Giants have had a particular racial bias at that position over the years compared to other teams, that’s just a fact, and it didn’t even necessarily have to be something that was conscious or deliberate.
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That most people on here never learned to read. Either that or they have a worse attention span than the supposed “millenials”
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
Exhibit A
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In comment 14419598 nyballa0891 said:
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That most people on here never learned to read. Either that or they have a worse attention span than the supposed “millenials”
Is this where you try to destroy Eric's reputation by calling him racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc because he has a different opinion than you?
Exhibit A
Don't hoist yourself up. You have been lacking a nuanced approach. There is a lot of nuance on this thread and you are not above it all.
let’s not conflate Cris friggin’ Carter with anything representing a journalist. This is as irresponsible a take as it gets. ESPN is a joke.
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Doing whatever it takes to stay relevant by firing up the know nothing fan.
let’s not conflate Cris friggin’ Carter with anything representing a journalist. This is as irresponsible a take as it gets. ESPN is a joke.
Bigotry will never die if folks refuse to move on from it. The amazing irony that those who tout its injustice keep it alive & well...
Wow...so if you see an injustice you should turn a blind eye and hope it resolves itself and disappears? How about bigotry being removed because folks stop being bigots instead of allowing them to continue in their bigotry?
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I've said what I needed to say on this thread.
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
"subconscious" ??? Stop... you sound like some 1st year gender studies idiot.
So the same owner that hired a black GM is a "subconscious" racist?
"He was fired" he has fired because he was awful at his job.
This BS systemic racism crap is just another way for librals to hold black people down. "Its not your fault you suck at life America is racist" ignoring that fact that we hired a black president...twice, have a black supreme court justice and black people have occupied virtually every know occupation.
What's the ratio of Black athletes to white athletes?
Draft just happened... how many white people were taken vs black people?
Stop with your bull shit race baiting its making the world a worst place
Daniel Jones is white & boring, so let’s pound the Giants for being racist. So, it isn’t insulting to Jones to say he wouldn’t be drafted if he were black?
Just brutal.
I agree. Like, Scatagories. Hungry Hungry Hippos IS a fucking toy. Which means triple points.
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In comment 14419563 Eric from BBI said:
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I've said what I needed to say on this thread.
Again, if you truly believe the Giants make decisions based on race, why are you supporting this team?
That says more about you than the Giants.
The version of the Giants you think some of us are talking about are exclusionist. That actively move to exclude black quarterbacks.
What we’re actually discussing is an organization that may or may not have a subconscious preference for white quarterbacks.
They’re absolutely not the same thing. The former is a caricature.
"subconscious" ??? Stop... you sound like some 1st year gender studies idiot.
So the same owner that hired a black GM is a "subconscious" racist?
"He was fired" he has fired because he was awful at his job.
This BS systemic racism crap is just another way for librals to hold black people down. "Its not your fault you suck at life America is racist" ignoring that fact that we hired a black president...twice, have a black supreme court justice and black people have occupied virtually every know occupation.
What's the ratio of Black athletes to white athletes?
Draft just happened... how many white people were taken vs black people?
Stop with your bull shit race baiting its making the world a worst place
Implicit bias and systemic racism are real. It has nothing to do with politics (or "librals" holding "black people down". The issue here is whether systemic racism is driving the Giants' personnel decisions. I don't think there is any evidence for that. I also think that going in that direction first and foremost is a mistake.
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There's plenty of other stuff to argue about.
I agree. Like, Scatagories. Hungry Hungry Hippos IS a fucking toy. Which means triple points.
Is a hot dog in a bun a sandwich?
Also, I don’t know if anyone is saying this was a conscious point. It’s not like their scouting report on Haskins was like “Black, so possibly not smart enough to be QB.” People are more saying it could have been subconscious racism which happens every day in various situations and people don’t even notice it.
Regardless of Haskins’s talent around him at Ohio St., ask yourself: would Daniel Jones also have thrown 50 TDs in that offense and broken Drew Brees’s record? He might have had a nice year but Haskins was truly impressive for being a 1st-year starter. That’s the other thing I don’t get. The knock on Haskins being a starter just one year. Like doesn’t that make what he did even more impressive? Daniel Jones started 3 years and it’s not like he lit it up his 3rd season thanks to all his experience. That tells me he may have already hit his ceiling, right? Also remember that Ohio St offense was not particularly perfectly suited for Haskins’s game, he tailored his game to fit the system and it worked out beautifully.
Maybe you could argue Jones is “smarter” because he went to Duke, but having a high football IQ is an entirely different thing, and Haskins we know had a high football IQ. Hell Lamar Jackson does an awful job in interviews but Ravens coaches raved about how quickly he could digest the playbook and process information and feedback and apply to his game on the field.
I’m not even saying Haskins is going to be a star, but he was clearly a better prospect and we at least know had the potential to be GREAT. Jones was good in college and they’re asking him to be GREAT in the NFL. I think they overthought this one, just my opinion, not my job though so we’ll see. We can’t know what all the factors were that went into the decision but it is true the Giants have had a particular racial bias at that position over the years compared to other teams, that’s just a fact, and it didn’t even necessarily have to be something that was conscious or deliberate.
Haskins isn't mobile. Shurmer wants a QB with some mobility.
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In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
It’s a stupid, ignorant statement to say Jones wouldn’t have been drafted had he been black and I expect nothing less from The Fall Guy. However, Eric, there has been a history of racial bias against black QBs in the NFL. I don’t buy your argument.
So you are rooting for a racist team? Nice.
Not my point at all. Damn you missed this one. My point is your argument is weak. Just because NFL rosters are predominantly black does not mean there hasn’t been or isn’t a bias against black QBs. I do not think the Giants are a racist organization. If I did, I absolutely would not root for them. Again, it was your point I disagree with.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
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In comment 14419701 Klaatu said:
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There's plenty of other stuff to argue about.
I agree. Like, Scatagories. Hungry Hungry Hippos IS a fucking toy. Which means triple points.
Is a hot dog in a bun a sandwich?
Yes of course, as is a taco
Agree sir!
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In comment 14419701 Klaatu said:
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There's plenty of other stuff to argue about.
I agree. Like, Scatagories. Hungry Hungry Hippos IS a fucking toy. Which means triple points.
Is a hot dog in a bun a sandwich?
I don’t even know anymore. Apparently, I’m not supposed to put ketchup on them.
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In comment 14419708 Hsilwek92 said:
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In comment 14419701 Klaatu said:
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There's plenty of other stuff to argue about.
I agree. Like, Scatagories. Hungry Hungry Hippos IS a fucking toy. Which means triple points.
Is a hot dog in a bun a sandwich?
Yes of course, as is a taco
Oh come on! Can we keep nothing sacred anymore!?
As if BBI is any better?
I think the Giants drafted 10 guys yesterday and 8 were black (I wan't looking up photos for some of the late guys, but I think that's right), so Carter has to be pretty selective to get to this accusation. It's QB and only QB.
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Considering that Eli Manning hasn't missed a snap since 2004 that's a silly argument. How many QBs had their first black QB start in that time frame?
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
D oteams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
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In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
Considering that Eli Manning hasn't missed a snap since 2004 that's a silly argument. How many QBs had their first black QB start in that time frame?
I meant hadn't to that point and hasn't missed a start rather than a snap.
Posters, evidence?
I suspect there is none.
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They had a black General Manager that oversees the whole organization... It not about race!
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
I just saw this response. I think you are doing a damn good job embarrassing yourself.
Try visiting any other forum discussing this topic.
You passionately support a racist football team.
Am I getting this right? Is that how it works? Let me know because I'm new to this.
Lets look at quality. Vick? Quincy Carter? RGIII? Geno? Freeman? Winston? Taylor? Dak? Josh Johnson? Maybe those available are always hurt or just suck? I'd accuse this view as being 'good QB-ist' (and it's despicable!)
And apparently it's NOT showing up to the combine out of shape, being relatively immobile, that kept Haskins from NYG (ignoring Jones' high work ethic & toughness for a sec). It's cuz he's black (ignoring Geno starting for Eli...facts meh)
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When you view the world through a racial prism, this is the kind of crap you get.
Some of you are embarrassing yourselves.
I just saw this response. I think you are doing a damn good job embarrassing yourself.
Read through the thread more carefully.
No. The issue at hand is the slanderous accusation that the New York Giants are run by a bunch of bigots.
That's the issue. Don't deflect.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad...
You passionately support a racist football team.
Am I getting this right? Is that how it works? Let me know because I'm new to this.
Damn. Now you’re just making stuff up. How am I a bigot? I would love to hear how you concluded that from my comments. All I said was I do not agree with your initial argument.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
Also, I don’t get why it’s wrong or a negative to want QBs to be like Eli. We’ve done pretty darn well by Eli. Not just the SBs or the longevity but in how he carries himself publicly and by how he represents the franchise. I hope every QB we ever have is like Eli.
I'm not sure if that's good or bad...
Giants are racist against white WRs. FACT.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
(1) Look at who was playing quarterback in collegiate ranks for each decade in the past 100 years. (i.e., how many black quarterbacks were in the NFL Draft in 1950? 1960? 1970? 1980?)
(2) Phil Simms and Eli Manning have been the starting quarterback of the New York Giants for 30 of the last 40 years.
Want to re-think your points?
I personally think the Redskins and the Giants were only seeking to improve their teams during this draft.
I also think the Redskins need to change their name ...
Fucking mongs.
In the past decade alone you have at least three:
- Andre Woodson
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
I'm pretty confident that we aren't last in the NFL for black backups lately.
Fucking mongs.
People don't have feelings on this issue. They are just not as smart as you.
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a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
In the past decade alone you have at least three:
- Andre Woodson
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
I'm pretty confident that we aren't last in the NFL for black backups lately.
Ryan Perrilloux also.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
This is a smart comment.
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
Well said.
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a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
In the past decade alone you have at least three:
- Andre Woodson
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
I'm pretty confident that we aren't last in the NFL for black backups lately.
Anthony Wright.
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The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
The face of this franchise going forward is one Saquon Barkley.
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
This is absurd.
I can't imagine what Pat Hanlon and other Giants execs are thinking when reading this thread.
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Giants fans actually fell for this.
Fucking mongs.
People don't have feelings on this issue. They are just not as smart as you.
True.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
You're a fucking idiot. Who cares what a mans skin color is - YOU are the bigot asshole.
What a joke.
And F cris carter.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Another comment well said. I do find interesting those who are, as you say, incapable, of having this conversation. What makes this conversation so difficult for them without jumping to extremes?
Lol I remember it well, who was the OL that they kept signing to replace Perrilloux? Was it Selvish Capers?
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
2) I saw this racist idea bullshit regarding Haskins and Jones on Twitter. Twitter is like an open sore growing and becoming more and more infected. It may well cause a sepsis that destroys the United States.
3) From 11/21/04 until now, Eli has started every game except the McAdon't benching.
The starting QB that week was Geno Smith, who I think is a black man. So literally, the one game that Eli didn't start in 15 years the QB1 was the paid backup for that season, a black guy.
4) Making accusations of racism is very popular today. Thing is you can't prove a negative, the burden should be on the accuser to prove a person or institution is racist. I guess here the evidence is that the Giants took Jones over Haskins? Weak sauce argument for sure. The accusers who lob these types of slanders never pay a price for their actions.
The idea that the Giants are a racist organization is bullshit and requires major evidence to even start the conversation.
What a crazy world.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
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Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
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In comment 14419359 nyballa0891 said:
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In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
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Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
I can...plainly. You're a fool.
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
-Anthony Wright
-Ryan Perrilloux
this list proves my point only one African American QB was backup in 94 YEARS the rest were camp/practice squad fodder
The irony here is the stereotype white qb prospect was faster and more mobile the the stereotype black one who had the better arm and thiucal QB tools.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
I personally think the Redskins and the Giants were only seeking to improve their teams during this draft.
I also think the Redskins need to change their name ...
Could not agree more on all points.
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
Race had nothing to do with the pick, but teams being mostly black doesn’t mean they can’t be biased when it comes to the QB position.
Up until recently teams actually thought that way.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
Thanks for posting this, just shows how ridiculous all of these mock drafts, etc. are. And who the hell is Nick Wright anyway? I love seeing him act like he knows more than guys like Mangini who have actually coached in the NFL.
That's a strawman comment. Too obviously trying to divert the issues. Apples and oranges.
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
He is not saying that the Giants are racist organization. Nor is he playing it safe.
You said above:
I will respond: you are not understanding that correctly.
One, Carter did not say the team is run by bigots. And two, most importantly, I don't think anyone in this thread that you are arguing with has said that Carter is objectively right.
What Carter said (and mind you this applies to all people white/black/Asian/etc), and what most people I see in this thread in this thread are saying, is that implicit bias on the basis of groups is real.
I do see what you're seeing Cris Carter as saying. That the Giants are an organization run by people with raical influences. This title is misleading however because that is not what Cris said. He said: Link
As you can see in that video, Cris actually does not even say that Giants were wrong to select Jones over Haskins. The only thing he says is that a black QB would not have had the same warts on his resume over-looked. That is a completely different argument. Cris never said it was wrong to overlook those warts. And he never said that if you like Jones as a prospect over Haskins you are feeling so only because of a racial bias.
So in the end, I do think you are responding to neither the arguments people are actually presenting to you, nor what Cris Carter said this title says he did.
As an aside, I will note for you: I personally disliked Haskins as an NFL QB. I would not have drafted him in the 1st round at all. Maybe not even the 2nd round. I don't think he'll have a long term successful career. Could I have been impacted by implicit bias? Yes. Do I think my opinion was objective and not impacted by that (in any material way, at least)? Yes. So I do think you can recognize that implicit exists - I view it has objectively so - and also like Jones over Haskins.
(Also, apologies in advance, I'm about to watch GOT so probably won't respond tonight.)
Why wasn't Cris carter crying racism when Eagles cut him loose for being a drunk?
It has become very popular in the SJW culture to perpetuate victimhood. Sad.
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
You don't understand me correctly and I already made that clear.
I said two things: One, I did not agree with your argument that because the majority of players in the NFL are black there is no bias against black QBs. There is not a strong correlation between the two. The NFL has had a history of bias against black QBs even though the league has been predominantly black for quite some time. I think that's indisputable.
Two, I clearly stated that I do not feel the Giants are a racist or bigoted organization. They have never said or done anything to my knowledge that would give me any indication that they are.
Do some people in their organization have a bias against black QBs? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if some do. However, having a bias is a long way from being a racist and a bigot.
I also stated that Cris Carter's comments were ignorant. I couldn't disagree with him more. His comments pissed me off and are dangerous and counterproductive.
I also don't feel the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black. I actually think had the Cardinals not drafted Murray the Giants would have gone after him. And I would have been much, much happier with Murray than Jones.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
Own it.
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
..................................................................................................................................
Stop it you know damn well what he saying. You keep using that same stupid statement to avoid addressing his question of why the Giants have not had a black starting QB? I can recognize who the tru bigot is and it's not this guy. I'm not one who plays the race card especially in sports but your code talk is giving serious bigotry vibes.
Let's keep this simple. Do you think John Mara, Steve Tisch, Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and Dave Gettleman have racial biases against black quarterbacks?
Yes or no.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
Own it.
Once again, you are ignoring my original point: I simply did not agree with your argument. Somehow you ran with that and accused me of rooting for a racist and bigoted organization and that I must be a racist and bigot based on association. You need to own that.
Also, your accusation is pretty offensive, but you believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better. I will leave it at that.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
Carter grow up.
Quote:
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that.
Like I said earlier, race had nothing to do with THIS pick but there are teams that wouldn’t overlook the same warts of a black quarterback. This has nothing to do with the Giants specifically, Carter didn’t say the Giants took Jones because he was white.
What is wrong with you?
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
Carter grow up.
Fun fact about Cris Carter and perhaps the only decent thing that Buddy Ryan ever did in his life. Carter had drug problems in Philly and had failed another test. The Eagles were releasing him, but Ryan didn't want to give the reason why (drugs) so he would have a chance to remain in the league. So he made the famous comment "all he does is catch TDs", basically saying his production was limited to jump throws in the end zone.
When he was released, the Giants put in a claim and Parcells wanted him on the Giants and Carter was about to head to the Meadowlands. But the Vikings put in a claim and he ended up in Minnesota. So he almost ended up with the Giants (he wanted to go to them) and ended up having a Hall of Fame career with the Vikings. But after the NFC Championship 41-0 wipeout, he has never had a nice thing to say about the organization.
If things went the way he wanted to in 1989, and he wins a ring with the Giants in 1990 (perhaps in 1989 if he was on that team), I wonder if we hear things like this from him.
Anyway, back to this thread....
What is wrong with you?
Holy fuck man. I specifically said the Giants didn’t make this pick with racial bias. I don’t think I can make that any clearer.
There are however teams that wouldn’t overlook Jones warts on a black QB. For the fifth time, this doesn’t apply to the Giants and the pick of Daniel Jones.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
Leading up to this draft, the New York Giants were WIDELY rumored to be either drafting a defensive lineman/edge rusher or Daniel Jones. There was FADING media speculation that they would be drafting Haskins.
The selection of Daniel Jones should surprise NO ONE... if you were actually paying attention.
Giants fans were pissed off that they drafted Jones over Haskins. They were pissed off that they drafted Jones over Josh Allen.
Open themselves up to this insanity??!!!
You wrote: "And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that."
Since this entire thread is about the New York Giants alleged racism, how am I supposed to interpret your comment?
Let’s not forget him punching Gilbride now
Own it.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
Hence my confusion.
You wrote: "And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that."
Since this entire thread is about the New York Giants alleged racism, how am I supposed to interpret your comment?
By the the fact that I said the Giants didn’t make this pick on race?
The fact that I said the Giants aren’t racist.
There are some teams in the NFL that operate with bias, whether intentional or not, but this is NOT THE GIANTS.
Who’s model is it now? Jones will sit his entire career behind Eli?
This shit is confusing to my simple mind.... I better go watch ESPN or Fox sports to learn about the game.....
Quote:
the Giants were giving Haskins serious consideration.
Yeah the were... but after the combine, his pro day, and a couple of sit down meetings and dinners with him, they discovered he is a black man!
Lmao
That was my position from my first post but you kept thinking otherwise.
There are teams however that wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt to a black QB with Jones warts.
2.) They have not had an African American starting QB due to circumstance; they have only had a few QB’s in the last 30 years
3.) They have had multiple African American QB’s on their roster in the last several years
4.) They did not draft Haskins because they had Jones rated higher. Jones is faster and has more experience than Haskins.
5.) The Giants are not the only team to pass on Haskins. The Broncos, Dolphins, and Bengals, all QB needy teams, watched him pass by.
Who’s model is it now? Jones will sit his entire career behind Eli?
This shit is confusing to my simple mind.... I better go watch ESPN or Fox sports to learn about the game.....
Dep, my mom called me today and asked me about Daniel Jones. She said they were tearing him apart on ESPN. I mentioned to her what Bill Polian, Pat Kirwan, Gil Brandt, etc. were saying and that was completely new information to her.
ESPN has become a joke. It simply tries to build up controversy in order to generate interest in their ever increasingly shitty product.
Daniel Jones may suck ass. But is it the "medias" job to convince fans that he is a pathetic excuse for a QB before he ever throws a professional pass? And unfortunately too many fans are acting like sheep and falling for it.
Really, a draft pick, the race card, and posters are buying it :(
“Mara forced the pick on Gettleman bc Jones fits what he wants at QB.” It’s ridiculous.
Unless you wanna become a NY Giants quarterback.
Lmao
Stop creating problems where there are none.
Enough with the "If it ain't broke, 'fix it' until it is" mentality.
Go lay down.
Anyone who thinks race had anything to do with the worst draft pick in modern history is a complete fool.
BETTER WHY?!
Better because he is white?!
You RACIST!!!
;-)
Tom Quinn
Eric you are a mensch. You stood up for your friends against false accusers. You could have shied away but instead you pushed back with truth and reason. We’d all be lucky to have a friend who would do for us what you’ve been doing for the past several hours. Godspeed.
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This thread is so stupid.
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
I disagree sir. So we all need to toe the company line just so a now multi-millionaire football player won’t maybe have his feelings hurt by people saying the Giants reached for him?
Also, this franchise was set back by a half-decade just from 2 failed top 10 picks in a row (Flowers and Apple) . A failed top 10 pick spent on a QB (especially when the guy some people went as far to say was the best player in the draft was still in the board) is a miss that could set the franchise back by closer to a decade. People invest money, time, and energy into rooting for the Giants so I think everyone has a right to express his/her opinion about the pick. No one is saying Jones killed anyone and criticizing the pick is not akin to that. Honestly if he can’t handle criticism and scrutiny now then he’s not going make it in NYC market anyway, so there’s no use in saying “come on let’s go easy on the kid”. I don’t know how this pick will turn out and I will root like hell for him to succeed, but I guarantee you a lot of the posters telling everyone to “go easy on him” and defending the pick will be the same people calling for his head when he throws 30 picks in 2021 and the Giants miss the playoffs for the 10th time in 11 years.
And before you call me a pessimist think about it this way: Jones was good at Duke, not great. He started for 3 years and by his final year he was still just a decent QB. From people I know who watch ACC football (not Duke fans) most of them say they thought of Jones as the 3rd or 4th best QB in the ACC. He did not strike fear in the hearts of opposing fans, and that is troublesome to me. So if in 3 years he was no better than simply decent in college, what are the chances he is going to be great in the NFL within the next 3 years. And what are the chances Saquon is going to want to re-sign with a losing team at that point? If I were him I wouldn’t want to go the way of Barry Sanders and take a chance on a losing organization for the 2nd half of my career, especially when he can go get a 9 figure contract elsewhere.
I’m ranting at this point but These are the reasons we are scrutinizing and criticizing this pick. It is not just “unprofessional” fan opinions, it is backed up by plenty of experts as well. People saying “clearly DG knows what he’s doing we have to trust him” forget the fact that a lot of people said the same thing about Jerry Reese (and at least Reese had won a couple Super Bowls at that point).
Gettleman and Shumur At 5-11 have done nothing to validate such unconditional trust, and I’m sure I’m going to get plenty of personal attacks for this post, which is creepy because I myself haven’t personally anyone I’ve simply stated my opinion on a message board. But the common theme around here seems to be that anyone who thinks maybe other NFL teams and GMs might have things better figured out than the Giants right now needs to be called a fool or an idiot or a buffoon etc.
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
Quote:
and will likely spiral out of control
Consider that the site owner was in this thread for hours and didn’t delete; instead he defended the falsely accused from being slandered.
This thread should stand because it bears witness that someone who actually KNOWS the giants management has vehemently opposed the accusation that they are racist.
+1
Mara: I never beat my dog
Carter: Hard to believe. How old is your dog?
Mara: 10 years old
Carter: So you had to get a new one?
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
I explicitly said the opposite.
I said that was how you were seeing the comment, but that was not how the comment was actually made. And I explicitly did not accuse the Giants of anything (and neither did Carter in the clip).
I do not think your responding "bullshit" demonstrates a good faith attempt to further this conversation. I get it, it's a message board, and probably not the best place for this conversation. Nevertheless, I raised multiple points re the concerns you've brought up that I'd be happy to discuss further if you want to respond to them. If not, that's fine too.
Mara: I never beat my dog
Carter: Hard to believe. How old is your dog?
Mara: 10 years old
Carter: So you had to get a new one?
Mara: Gimme me a break. My daughter fell in love with Fido at the rescue center and we raised him from a pup.
Carter: So you beat your previous dog to death ten years ago and now only your daughter can stop you from your cruelty?
Mara: This is ridiculous
Carter: So attack the messenger? Sure sign of guilt. Its obvious. How did you beat your dogs? I bet with an iron horseshoe.
Mara: Now you have gone too far. I don't even own a horseshoe.
Carter: Ladies and gentleman we have a very guilty man. His daughter loves to ride and even went on a dude ranch vacation with her father. Twelve Years Ago!!! Just in time to walk off with a weapon.
BBI: Hmmm. Could be something to it. You never know. He cant produce any evidence. Maybe its true and he doesn't realize he has a problem
Mara: You can look up all my records and my families record of dogs kept in perfect health and all their regular visits to the Vet.
Carter: Isnt it a shame when a rich man can pay people to modify records to hide his misdeeds
BBI: You know Eric, he doesn't have any proof. Why are you defending a possible dog killer? If he does that then who knows what other terrible misdeeds he is capable of? I mean you don't know what he did and he has an apartment right near Central Park and an office near a large swamp
Lesson: You cant disprove many kinds of allegations. The accuser just has to raise an eyebrow until you have a bullseye on you. Guaranteed 35% of the population just keeps bringing it up and never asks if its fair or how they can stop the spread of stupid
Its a easy and lazy to speculate. Its unproveable and semantics and parsing deconstruction is just word clever not actual thinking.
Please stop the spread of stupid. Its like being on the bottom when the Night Kings Army screeches to the next meal.
+1
I literally thought of Eric in this thread while watching Jorah battling the zombie horde.
Quote:
Again, "bias" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own it.
Just because you think this does not make it true, and I couldn't disagree with you more. Again, you keep thinking what you want to think and feel free to keep pushing it on this thread. I have made my position very clear, contrary to what you think.
kind of a cowardly reply.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
OK, so what is the so-called conspiracy theory that you are advocating here? It is your position that for an NFL team to draft Jones over 6 other ACC QBs requires an explanation? What are your thoughts on why this happened? You are stating that this pick is fodder for conspiracy, and I want to know what that conspiracy is and whether or not you believe it.
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About the former GM being black
Did he forget the NY Giants started a Black QB over a Giant Legend that broke his iron man Streak . I always tried to give Carter a break because he can be a great commentator but then he pulls off his mask and lets you know he acts like a bigot himself and reminds you of his hatred for the Giants . ESPN is another liberal shit hole .
Maybe it's me I didn't want Haskins but it certainly wasn't because of the color of his skin .
Some people like Carter just can't help themselves .
What a fool he is really just a fool .
And the college scouting director.
Ramsey is a POS . Remember him running into Barkley on the
sidelines and Barkley blasted him then of course Jalen got up in his face running his mouth after he got punked screw him too he can't keep that trap shut bet dollars to donuts Jalen
will end up in trouble somehow you can just smell it .
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Is there a systemic racial bias within the agencies that submit the candidates, and in HR who screens them first? I would not know. But by the time it gets to me, my only job is to pick the best ones available for the job at hand and produce something. As I said, I couldn't care less what they look like, as long as they are the best people to help me get the job done. Not once did I ever keep track of how many people of a particular race or ethnic background that I hired, and oh maybe I should make the next one from a different group, just to be diverse. That would be asinine, and counterproductive. Clearly, the bias in my hiring was dependent on what candidates were available to me to hire.
The NFL, and by extension the Giants have been in a similar situation. Was/is there a systemic racial bias in high schools and college to push black players to positions other than QB? There seems to be so yes. The result is that by the time the NFL comes knocking, there have not been many black QBs with the proper level of coaching and experience to make them ready for the NFL. So not having black QBs for an NFL team or having had very few is not a matter of the team being bigots, but rather a function of the candidates available.
There seems to be less of this going on now, and we see more QB of various ethnic backgrounds now. Interestingly, there still seems to be a preponderance of white QBs. Does the racial bias still exist? At this point, I don't know. But as a Giants fan, its not really my problem, I want the team to get the best players. Just like I wanted to hire the best software developers, I don't care what their skin color is. And the team should feel and behave the same way.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
Someone else mentioned this earlier but Barkley is the face of the franchise and they are lucky to have a great kid like Saquan who seems to do all of the right things.
Final note for the race baiters here...
This racist organization (LOL) benched the fan's beloved Eli and ended his starting streak in favor of a black QB.
Some of you people will go out of your way to find racism everywhere.
Quote:
is it weird??
Quote:
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Quote:
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
EJ Manuel was a reach and did zero in college to warrant it.
Again this doesn’t apply to every team.
Quote:
In comment 14419746 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
is it weird??
Quote:
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Thank you for this post. I really think too many people make leaps of racism claims when real examples exist and to me it waters them down.
I don't really find the Giants situation weird or peculiar. It actually is similar to many teams who have had offenses designed around drop back pocket passers.
what has been evident since I've been watching the team is that they are very inclusive. since the time they had Emlen Tunnell, they've consistently fielded teams with star black players. The coaching staff has had blacks, whether it was Romeo Crennell, Charles Way, Skipper, etc. They've have prominent black scouts and a black GM.
And the excellent reference above about Ronnie Barnes should also be noted. This is a man who was their Head Athletic Trainer for 20+ years before being named their President of Medical Services. Some have opined that he holds as much influence with the team as anyone else and he's highly respected.
And this is where today's climate can have a devastating impact. Because a yahoo on TV makes a claim - there is now discussion on whether or not the Giants are making moves based on race. Carter isn't talking about Reese, Ross, Barnes, LT, Tunnell, Crennell or even Geno Smith. In fact, he'll probably utter the name Jason Sehorn before any of those named above.
The Giants now have to defend that they aren't racist. Simply based on who they selected in the draft. Al because of unfounded claims by an ignorant fool.
Nice post fatman. You and I seem to end up on the opposite side of things, but I could not agree more.
There is an idea out there being pushed by some people that ONLY white men can be racist because only white men have the power to act on their prejudice. This bizarro idea is called power + prejudice = racism. If you want to see some of the most absurd thinking about racism, look it up... From reading this thread, I suspect there are some folks here that subscribe to this ideology. The thing is, it really justification for an extreme form of racism against white men. Racism is bigotry against people of any race and can be practiced by anybody of any race or gender. No matter how you want to try to spin it or sugar coat it, its still stinks.
I understand what you are saying. However, implicit bias is more impactful upon others when it comes from me, a white man, than it would be if I were black or a woman or both. Women and minorities have to put up with every day shit that white men don't have to. I respect your sentiment but let's not suggest that we are all on a level playing field. Because of this, we are not all going to react the same way to events. If we can recognize and respect each other, that would be helpful.
So I do not agree that the Giants organization is any more racist than any other well meaning organization in a position of power. But let's not suggest that white privilege doesn't exist. The NFL is one of those areas in our society (along with the military) where merit rules, so integration is farther along than, say, on wall street.
Daniel Jones reeks of white privilege. Duke does as well. I think this is really unfair to him as a person and I hope this does not become a defining narrative. I also don't approve of the systemic racism that clearly exists in our society.
Thanks.
Thanks.
yeah I am still waiting for it too.
He is clueless!
Thanks.
I sold mine on Facebook Marketplace for just below $200 and an already used Chick-fil-A gift card.
Thanks.
Such a good take.
You're right. There's no general advantage at all to being white or a man in America.