...including some whose mission statements are devoted to human and civil rights, have found implicit bias to be a factor in their own recruiting and hiring for certain positions.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
Please don't mention Ryan Perrilloux... do you know how many times I had to update the roster (roster page, transactions page, salary page, etc.) the one year they signed him and cut him EVERY (blanking) week??!!!
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
but I agree with those in this thread making the point that a team can have a heavily black roster, yet nonetheless exhibit bias in considering black players unsuited for the QB position. Clearly throughout football history that's been common, at every level.
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
The face of this franchise going forward is one Saquon Barkley.
Not really. Blogger is trying to play is safe. He wants to say the Giants are a racist organization, but "they don't really mean it. Their bias is subconscious. But maybe some introspection and training may 'fix' their inner racism."
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
You're a fucking idiot. Who cares what a mans skin color is - YOU are the bigot asshole.
But Max Kellerman said this months ago before they passed on Haskins ... The giants should have notified ESPN a retraction and an apology was required of they would only do the required with ESPN/ABC etc (no interviews etc) ..
Since Fri. afternoon the entertainment value of this site has been off the charts..We,ve had the sane, insane the informed and the clueless.. morons and normal folks.. Ironman and Capt. stopped by for a sec..one of the GoT dragons did a fly by..Jets fans Skin fans..The Yanks threw in a nice 3 days in the Bay.. The Klan checked in a while ago..so in closing THANK YOU to one and All! just outstanding diverse entertainment.
RE: The topic of race generally doesn't yield a productive Â
discussion on BBI because there's always a side that is incapable of having a nuanced approach to the issue.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Another comment well said. I do find interesting those who are, as you say, incapable, of having this conversation. What makes this conversation so difficult for them without jumping to extremes?
Please don't mention Ryan Perrilloux... do you know how many times I had to update the roster (roster page, transactions page, salary page, etc.) the one year they signed him and cut him EVERY (blanking) week??!!!
Lol I remember it well, who was the OL that they kept signing to replace Perrilloux? Was it Selvish Capers?
It's safe to say, Chris Carter is an idiot and this, once again, is a prime example of why. Just utter nonsense, quite frankly.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
Carter has always been a race baiter. I remember he resented Sehorn's skill and attributed his minimal popularity being because he's white. Fuck him and his fall guy.
1) Carter hates the Giants for the 2000 title game obliteration. To hell with implicit bias, he has a fucking explicit bias courtesy of Kerry Collins and his five passing TD'S. Damn, what as ass kicking that was 19 years ago. Sour grapes.
2) I saw this racist idea bullshit regarding Haskins and Jones on Twitter. Twitter is like an open sore growing and becoming more and more infected. It may well cause a sepsis that destroys the United States.
3) From 11/21/04 until now, Eli has started every game except the McAdon't benching.
The starting QB that week was Geno Smith, who I think is a black man. So literally, the one game that Eli didn't start in 15 years the QB1 was the paid backup for that season, a black guy.
4) Making accusations of racism is very popular today. Thing is you can't prove a negative, the burden should be on the accuser to prove a person or institution is racist. I guess here the evidence is that the Giants took Jones over Haskins? Weak sauce argument for sure. The accusers who lob these types of slanders never pay a price for their actions.
The idea that the Giants are a racist organization is bullshit and requires major evidence to even start the conversation.
It's safe to say, Chris Carter is an idiot and this, once again, is a prime example of why. Just utter nonsense, quite frankly.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
First, I don't want to escalate this and wind up trying to defend a position I don't hold. I think this is a complicated issue. It is also an emotional one. I'm trying not to get emotional about it. And I like you as a poster, though I don't always agree with you. I think you are good at calling bullshit on bullshit. I am sure I've been on the receiving end of some of that. I deserved it.
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
I can...plainly. You're a fool.
It's hard to ignore the possiblity that someone said no to a black qb Â
didn’t look to have Ken O’Brien speed back there, I strongly hope they would have put him ahead.
The irony here is the stereotype white qb prospect was faster and more mobile the the stereotype black one who had the better arm and thiucal QB tools.
All the talking heads are bad but Carter and Wright are the worst. Â
Watch this first clip of First Things First with Chris Carter and Nick Wright w/ Mangini which aired THE DAY OF THE DRAFT. The conversation they are having is "WOULD THE GIANTS BE MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE IF THEY ON HASKINS FOR JONES?". Mangini and Carter are arguing about all the intangibles that go into picking a QB and that there is so much more to it than stats. Basically, they are agreeing on why the Giants might pick Jones over Haskins with legitimate arguments. Nick won't let go on the stats.
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
Race had nothing to do with the pick, but teams being mostly black doesn’t mean they can’t be biased when it comes to the QB position.
Up until recently teams actually thought that way.
RE: All the talking heads are bad but Carter and Wright are the worst. Â
Watch this first clip of First Things First with Chris Carter and Nick Wright w/ Mangini which aired THE DAY OF THE DRAFT. The conversation they are having is "WOULD THE GIANTS BE MAKING A HUGE MISTAKE IF THEY ON HASKINS FOR JONES?". Mangini and Carter are arguing about all the intangibles that go into picking a QB and that there is so much more to it than stats. Basically, they are agreeing on why the Giants might pick Jones over Haskins with legitimate arguments. Nick won't let go on the stats.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
Thanks for posting this, just shows how ridiculous all of these mock drafts, etc. are. And who the hell is Nick Wright anyway? I love seeing him act like he knows more than guys like Mangini who have actually coached in the NFL.
Not really. Blogger is trying to play is safe. He wants to say the Giants are a racist organization, but "they don't really mean it. Their bias is subconscious. But maybe some introspection and training may 'fix' their inner racism."
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
He is not saying that the Giants are racist organization. Nor is he playing it safe.
You said above:
Quote:
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
I will respond: you are not understanding that correctly.
One, Carter did not say the team is run by bigots. And two, most importantly, I don't think anyone in this thread that you are arguing with has said that Carter is objectively right.
What Carter said (and mind you this applies to all people white/black/Asian/etc), and what most people I see in this thread in this thread are saying, is that implicit bias on the basis of groups is real.
I do see what you're seeing Cris Carter as saying. That the Giants are an organization run by people with raical influences. This title is misleading however because that is not what Cris said. He said: Link
As you can see in that video, Cris actually does not even say that Giants were wrong to select Jones over Haskins. The only thing he says is that a black QB would not have had the same warts on his resume over-looked. That is a completely different argument. Cris never said it was wrong to overlook those warts. And he never said that if you like Jones as a prospect over Haskins you are feeling so only because of a racial bias.
So in the end, I do think you are responding to neither the arguments people are actually presenting to you, nor what Cris Carter said this title says he did.
As an aside, I will note for you: I personally disliked Haskins as an NFL QB. I would not have drafted him in the 1st round at all. Maybe not even the 2nd round. I don't think he'll have a long term successful career. Could I have been impacted by implicit bias? Yes. Do I think my opinion was objective and not impacted by that (in any material way, at least)? Yes. So I do think you can recognize that implicit exists - I view it has objectively so - and also like Jones over Haskins.
(Also, apologies in advance, I'm about to watch GOT so probably won't respond tonight.)
any chance Giants preferred Jones, because of his having started 3X more games than Haskins?
Why wasn't Cris carter crying racism when Eagles cut him loose for being a drunk?
It has become very popular in the SJW culture to perpetuate victimhood. Sad.
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
You don't understand me correctly and I already made that clear.
I said two things: One, I did not agree with your argument that because the majority of players in the NFL are black there is no bias against black QBs. There is not a strong correlation between the two. The NFL has had a history of bias against black QBs even though the league has been predominantly black for quite some time. I think that's indisputable.
Two, I clearly stated that I do not feel the Giants are a racist or bigoted organization. They have never said or done anything to my knowledge that would give me any indication that they are.
Do some people in their organization have a bias against black QBs? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if some do. However, having a bias is a long way from being a racist and a bigot.
I also stated that Cris Carter's comments were ignorant. I couldn't disagree with him more. His comments pissed me off and are dangerous and counterproductive.
I also don't feel the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black. I actually think had the Cardinals not drafted Murray the Giants would have gone after him. And I would have been much, much happier with Murray than Jones.
If I am understand you correctly, you think the Giants will only accept QBs who are white. Is that correct?
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
..................................................................................................................................
Stop it you know damn well what he saying. You keep using that same stupid statement to avoid addressing his question of why the Giants have not had a black starting QB? I can recognize who the tru bigot is and it's not this guy. I'm not one who plays the race card especially in sports but your code talk is giving serious bigotry vibes.
I am having trouble understanding you because you are not making yourself clear.
Let's keep this simple. Do you think John Mara, Steve Tisch, Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and Dave Gettleman have racial biases against black quarterbacks?
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
Once again, you are ignoring my original point: I simply did not agree with your argument. Somehow you ran with that and accused me of rooting for a racist and bigoted organization and that I must be a racist and bigot based on association. You need to own that.
Also, your accusation is pretty offensive, but you believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better. I will leave it at that.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
Since they KICKED HIS ASS. there is nothing he says about the Giants that is fair or accurate. Its shameful that he plays this race card at the expense of a young man who just wants to play football. CC has much to learn. He owes DJ an apology which I highly doubt he will ever hear.
Carter grow up.
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that.
Like I said earlier, race had nothing to do with THIS pick but there are teams that wouldn’t overlook the same warts of a black quarterback. This has nothing to do with the Giants specifically, Carter didn’t say the Giants took Jones because he was white.
You open yourself up to all kinds of nutty theories.
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?
Quote:
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
In the past decade alone you have at least three:
- Andre Woodson
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
I'm pretty confident that we aren't last in the NFL for black backups lately.
Ryan Perrilloux also.
I think Carter’s accusation, as reported, is stupid, insulting clickbait. But that doesn’t mean the Giants shouldn’t review their own scouting and grading processes to ensure that they aren’t inadvertently tipping the scales toward QBs who look, sound, dress and act like Eli Manning. It’s the kind of introspection world-class organizations undertake as one pillar of continuous improvement.
Nothing radical here, nor any accusation of racism. I’m just hoping their minds are open to modern management techniques. The Giants have, historically, been behind the curve in many ways, whether it was Wellington Mara basing his draft picks on magazines and recommendations from neighbors, or Dave Gettleman scoffing at advanced analytics. So it’s not crazy to think that they might be missing something. But I doubt there’s much to see in the Jones/Haskins decision. Rosen? That one is more complicated, and not directly relevant to the subject at hand.
This is a smart comment.
I agree. But I also completely understand Eric’s anger here. Never in my life have I seen a draft pick so scrutinized, ridiculed, laughed at and now....the pick was made because the Giants don’t want a black QB. Whether anyone likes the pick or not (I hated it), Gettleman put his ass and job on the line by making a pick he knew would be unpopular. I’m sure he expected some backlash but this shit has gotten out of hand. You’d think he killed someone with the way this pick is getting dissected.
And I feel awful for Daniel Jones. None of this is his fault and here he is, public enemy number one. Now he’s the guy that got drafted because he’s the smart white guy, not his talent. What a lovely situation he’s stepping into.
All of this for what? Because they thought the Giants should have picked someone else? Seriously? Damn. People fucking suck.
Well said.
Quote:
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
In the past decade alone you have at least three:
- Andre Woodson
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
I'm pretty confident that we aren't last in the NFL for black backups lately.
Anthony Wright.
Quote:
The Giants don't want a black QB because they are racist but they have no problem hiring a black general manager and a black director of college scouting?
The point made above about being the face of the franchise is valid. Can’t compare that with some behind the scenes guy. All I know is that the Maras have almost always preferred that the face of the franchise to come from Dixie.
The face of this franchise going forward is one Saquon Barkley.
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
This is absurd.
I can't imagine what Pat Hanlon and other Giants execs are thinking when reading this thread.
Quote:
Giants fans actually fell for this.
Fucking mongs.
People don't have feelings on this issue. They are just not as smart as you.
True.
the Giants have played 600 games in their history and only in 1 Game has African American started as QB
you want to tell me during all those 94 years it was just coincidence and circumstance they could not find one African American player with enough talent to start as QB ?
Geno Smith played as well as Manning in the game played -- he might have played even better than Eli if he was allowed to start the rest of the season -- you don't think a percentage of the rage and anger from Giants fans was the fact that it was an African American who replaced Eli?
a question how many Giants BACKUP QBs have been African American?
You're a fucking idiot. Who cares what a mans skin color is - YOU are the bigot asshole.
What a joke.
And F cris carter.
For instance, you can take pride in the fact that the Giants were one of the first NFL teams to hire a black GM - while also being disappointed that they were the last franchise to have a black QB start a game.
As alluded to in other comments, you can have the view that there may exist some inherent bias against black QBs within the organization without going as far as to say that the team is run by white supremacists. It's really not something that should be discussed in such simple terms.
Another comment well said. I do find interesting those who are, as you say, incapable, of having this conversation. What makes this conversation so difficult for them without jumping to extremes?
Lol I remember it well, who was the OL that they kept signing to replace Perrilloux? Was it Selvish Capers?
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
2) I saw this racist idea bullshit regarding Haskins and Jones on Twitter. Twitter is like an open sore growing and becoming more and more infected. It may well cause a sepsis that destroys the United States.
3) From 11/21/04 until now, Eli has started every game except the McAdon't benching.
The starting QB that week was Geno Smith, who I think is a black man. So literally, the one game that Eli didn't start in 15 years the QB1 was the paid backup for that season, a black guy.
4) Making accusations of racism is very popular today. Thing is you can't prove a negative, the burden should be on the accuser to prove a person or institution is racist. I guess here the evidence is that the Giants took Jones over Haskins? Weak sauce argument for sure. The accusers who lob these types of slanders never pay a price for their actions.
The idea that the Giants are a racist organization is bullshit and requires major evidence to even start the conversation.
What a crazy world.
However, I can also say that threads like this also expose the closet racists on this site--and there are quite a few of them, most don't even acknowledge or realize that they are. Ignorance is bliss, I guess. On both sides.
+
Quote:
Still, the lack of black QBs on the field, in meaningful games, for the Giants, is weird.
the Giants have gone a decade and a half with the same guy. Were they supposed to previously have a black QB for "meaningful games"??
And what is meaningful? The Patriots haven't had a black QB for meaningful games, especially with Brady there. The Chargers haven't since Rivers has been there. The Packers didn't while Favre was there. The Colts didn't when Manning was there.
Do teams like the Lions get some special consideration because a couple decades ago Rodney Peete was their guy? Why not while Stafford is there? Work one in for an occasional start?I mean the Bengals had Jeff Blake sandwiched in between Esiason and Dalton, but nobody else for "meaningful games".
I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. I'm assuming "meaningful games" is code for Geno Smith's start not counting. Right?
So forgive the long post that follows.
My point is what I said: It's peculiar. But I'm not insinuating anything. I'm not trying to suggest racism where there isn't. I'm not trying to be subtle and suggestive here. I'm trying to discuss a complex situation without pouring gasoline on a fire. You can have a very inclusive attitude and the outcome can fail to reflect that. In fact, a random distribution has gaps and clusters. A color-blind hiring practice will have gaps and clusters, too. An EVEN distribution isn't random, and a random distribution isn't even. The Giants QB history could be a gap in a random distribution that indicates a color-blind front office.
This is a very hard concept for a lot of people. It's true of cancer clusters, too. Random distribution of cancer cases means there will inevitably be clusters, because math. Nobody's at fault. But I digress.
I hire freelancers. I make my hiring inclusive. That's not random; it's a choice. Am I saying the Giants should make a point of being more inclusive? Absolutely not. I don't see a problem there that needs to be solved, the way Chris Carter does. Again, I'm not trying to insinuate anything. You only get one starting QB at a time. If you have the same guy for a long time, you're not going to get diversity at starting QB. Diversity isn't the goal, anyway; winning is.
IIRC Geno started when the Giants were pretty much out of contention for the playoffs. That's what I mean by "meaningful"; the team is still in the running for playoffs. The season was lost already. I didn't mean anything to be "code." I should have defined the term.
Black QBs aren't really a novelty anymore so it wasn't (and shouldn't have been) big news when the Giants started Geno. And if you only have one guy starting for about 15 years, and if he happens to be white, well, you're going to be an outlier. So it's not like the Giants were trying out a bunch of guys at QB and they were all white. I get that. They brought in several black QBs over the years. Eli never missed a start. It was like being Marion Seldes' understudy on Broadway. She would never miss a show, no matter what. Worst job in the NY theater scene, unless you want to collect a paycheck for nothing. Eli's backup, same.
Regarding the Pats: They played Jacoby Brissett in early-season games. He was the first black QB to start for them. I don't think that was big news, either. It's the AFC East so I guess one could argue their division championship is inevitable and those games aren't meaningful, but that's what I mean by a meaningful game: The team's still in contention for something.
The Lions are a perfect example. Again, IIRC, they've had several black starting QBs over the years. (Charlie Whitehurst? Not sure. Some guys before that I think. It's not something I track closely.) They got stability at the position with Matthew Stafford, who is white, so we haven't seen a black QB under center for them in a while.
To go back to what I said in the first place: There are a lot of purely football things that attracted Jones to the Giants. Do some other things they like about Jones have an unconscious racial component? I want to say no, but I think the better answer is: How can we know that? I don't even know my own unconscious biases — they're unconscious. How can I know someone else's? But I know I have some. Everyone does.
So again, the Giants' lack of diversity at starting QB over their history is peculiar. "Peculiar" doesn't mean there's some dark force underlying it. They're an outlier. So are the Pats. Both have had long-term stability at QB, both have won championships. But that doesn't make them any less of an outlier. Odd is odd. If Jones is a star and stays healthy, the issue is off the table, though some people will throw shade their way over it. Some people always want to think the worst. If Jones busts or gets hurt, it returns. If the Giants's hiring is as color-blind as we fans think it is, odds are we'll see more diversity then. Maybe not until then.
Personally, I'd be perfectly fine if Jones played the next 20 years, never missed a snap, won four Super Bowls and got hs gold jacket. I am a fan, not a diversity executive. They'd still be outliers, partly because they basically had two guys at QB for about a generation. I'd be ok with that.
Quote:
In comment 14419359 nyballa0891 said:
Quote:
In comment 14419338 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Someone should tell Cris what the racial make-up of the New York Giants is (and every other team in the NFL).
Not saying I buy it, but thats not the argument. Its a supposed bias against black qbs not everyday players. It was not until last year that the Giants started a black qb (the last franchise to do so), which is a bit odd but hey who knows.
So let me get this straight. The Giants aren't racist except for one position?
OK.
The qb position is synonymous with “being the face of the franchise”. I’m not saying I agree with the argument, but you can’t sit here and tell me you don’t see the difference
I can...plainly. You're a fool.
- Josh Johnson
- Geno Smith
-Anthony Wright
-Ryan Perrilloux
this list proves my point only one African American QB was backup in 94 YEARS the rest were camp/practice squad fodder
The irony here is the stereotype white qb prospect was faster and more mobile the the stereotype black one who had the better arm and thiucal QB tools.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
I personally think the Redskins and the Giants were only seeking to improve their teams during this draft.
I also think the Redskins need to change their name ...
Could not agree more on all points.
It's an absurd statement.
The New York Giants have been an overwhelmingly black team for decades. No player who has played for them has ever accused management of being racist. No employee has ever done so.
Perhaps the reason is that it has only been in the last 10-15 years that NFL-draftable quarterbacks have been more commonly available?
You are basically arguing that Tisch (who is Jewish) and Mara (who is about as cosmopolitan as you can get) are bigots.
So stop dancing around and just say it.
Race had nothing to do with the pick, but teams being mostly black doesn’t mean they can’t be biased when it comes to the QB position.
Up until recently teams actually thought that way.
https://youtu.be/VKBtBL9O85A?t=72
Faster forward to the day after the draft and the topic is "Did the Giants make a huge mistake passing on Dwayne Haskins to select Daniel Jones?". A previous video to this had the topic that Nick Wright was SHOCKED they took Jones over Haskins. Really? You just did a show about the possibility the day before it happened. Carter did a 180 from the first show where he basically said he could understand why they would go with Jones but now it's a terrible decision. Nick now says he wouldn't have taken Jones with any Pick. My favorite part is when he claims, "That Jones might check at the boxes you want in a QB but wait I watched his games" Mangini immediately asks, "How many Duke games did you watch". Nick immediately responds, "Duke games during the regular season? Zero!" Such tools.
https://youtu.be/P9HjF0y3b4k?t=70
Now the Giants are making a racist decision by selecting Jones as the prototypical white QB. LMAO! Benny Hill should be their opening theme music.
Thanks for posting this, just shows how ridiculous all of these mock drafts, etc. are. And who the hell is Nick Wright anyway? I love seeing him act like he knows more than guys like Mangini who have actually coached in the NFL.
That's a strawman comment. Too obviously trying to divert the issues. Apples and oranges.
Who the hell knew that Jerry Reese and Marc Ross were subconscious racists?
He is not saying that the Giants are racist organization. Nor is he playing it safe.
You said above:
I will respond: you are not understanding that correctly.
One, Carter did not say the team is run by bigots. And two, most importantly, I don't think anyone in this thread that you are arguing with has said that Carter is objectively right.
What Carter said (and mind you this applies to all people white/black/Asian/etc), and what most people I see in this thread in this thread are saying, is that implicit bias on the basis of groups is real.
I do see what you're seeing Cris Carter as saying. That the Giants are an organization run by people with raical influences. This title is misleading however because that is not what Cris said. He said: Link
As you can see in that video, Cris actually does not even say that Giants were wrong to select Jones over Haskins. The only thing he says is that a black QB would not have had the same warts on his resume over-looked. That is a completely different argument. Cris never said it was wrong to overlook those warts. And he never said that if you like Jones as a prospect over Haskins you are feeling so only because of a racial bias.
So in the end, I do think you are responding to neither the arguments people are actually presenting to you, nor what Cris Carter said this title says he did.
As an aside, I will note for you: I personally disliked Haskins as an NFL QB. I would not have drafted him in the 1st round at all. Maybe not even the 2nd round. I don't think he'll have a long term successful career. Could I have been impacted by implicit bias? Yes. Do I think my opinion was objective and not impacted by that (in any material way, at least)? Yes. So I do think you can recognize that implicit exists - I view it has objectively so - and also like Jones over Haskins.
(Also, apologies in advance, I'm about to watch GOT so probably won't respond tonight.)
Why wasn't Cris carter crying racism when Eagles cut him loose for being a drunk?
It has become very popular in the SJW culture to perpetuate victimhood. Sad.
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
You don't understand me correctly and I already made that clear.
I said two things: One, I did not agree with your argument that because the majority of players in the NFL are black there is no bias against black QBs. There is not a strong correlation between the two. The NFL has had a history of bias against black QBs even though the league has been predominantly black for quite some time. I think that's indisputable.
Two, I clearly stated that I do not feel the Giants are a racist or bigoted organization. They have never said or done anything to my knowledge that would give me any indication that they are.
Do some people in their organization have a bias against black QBs? I have no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if some do. However, having a bias is a long way from being a racist and a bigot.
I also stated that Cris Carter's comments were ignorant. I couldn't disagree with him more. His comments pissed me off and are dangerous and counterproductive.
I also don't feel the Giants passed on Haskins because he was black. I actually think had the Cardinals not drafted Murray the Giants would have gone after him. And I would have been much, much happier with Murray than Jones.
"Racial influences" is a polite way of saying bigot.
Own what you are accusing the Giants of.
Racial influences... give me a break.
Own it.
If so, you are supporting a racist football team. What does that say about you?
..................................................................................................................................
Stop it you know damn well what he saying. You keep using that same stupid statement to avoid addressing his question of why the Giants have not had a black starting QB? I can recognize who the tru bigot is and it's not this guy. I'm not one who plays the race card especially in sports but your code talk is giving serious bigotry vibes.
Let's keep this simple. Do you think John Mara, Steve Tisch, Ernie Accorsi, Jerry Reese, and Dave Gettleman have racial biases against black quarterbacks?
Yes or no.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
Own it.
Once again, you are ignoring my original point: I simply did not agree with your argument. Somehow you ran with that and accused me of rooting for a racist and bigoted organization and that I must be a racist and bigot based on association. You need to own that.
Also, your accusation is pretty offensive, but you believe what you want to believe if it makes you feel better. I will leave it at that.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
Carter grow up.
Quote:
He said a black QB with Jones’ warts wouldn’t have gotten the same benefit of the doubt especially if they don’t fit the traditional mobile black QB mold. There’s some truth there. We saw this with Jackson. His supporting cast was bad but didn’t get the same excuses as Allen and Jones got. Nobody asked Josh Allen to move to WR, despite his accuracy concerns.
He didn’t say the Giants took Jones over Haskins because he was black.
You are claiming a racial bias. You are claiming bigotry.
And whether you like it or not racial bias exists in the NFL, you can’t hide from that.
Like I said earlier, race had nothing to do with THIS pick but there are teams that wouldn’t overlook the same warts of a black quarterback. This has nothing to do with the Giants specifically, Carter didn’t say the Giants took Jones because he was white.
What is wrong with you?
Sure Jones was the 7th best QB in the ACC but we thought he was the #6 best player in the entire draft. If that's not fodder for conspiracy theories, what is?