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More important pass rush or coverage

Giantz_comeback : 5/2/2019 5:50 pm
"New analytics developed by PFF show that coverage performance by corner backs actually impacts winning and losing more than pass rush."

https://www.giants.com/news/cover-3-takeaways-from-giants-2019-draft-class

Of course you need a little of one to compliment the other but if you are average at pass rush but have a stronger secondary it seems to be the better alternative in todays quick passing game than vice versa.

We will generate pass rush by sending guys from everywhere vs having an individual stud pass rushers.
There are many ways to skin a cat  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/2/2019 5:59 pm : link
The part that matters is limiting the other QB's completion percentage. How you go about doing that is a matter of your talent and scheme.
How many sacks  
XBRONX : 5/2/2019 6:00 pm : link
did the Patriots have last year?
Interesting, I'd like to see the analytic data on coverage sacks  
flycatcher : 5/2/2019 6:21 pm : link
I think DG believes in it, based on him drafting 4 CBs, including a trade-up. I think our newly-overhauled D has great potential.
RE: How many sacks  
robbieballs2003 : 5/2/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14429407 XBRONX said:
Quote:
did the Patriots have last year?


Same as us, 30.
If it's not too much trouble, I'd like to do both.  
Klaatu : 5/2/2019 6:28 pm : link
Thanks in advance.
A great pass rush  
since1925 : 5/2/2019 6:30 pm : link
makes great cornerbacks.
Really you need both...  
Amtoft : 5/2/2019 6:34 pm : link
a great pass rush makes your CBs look better. Great CBs make your pass rush look better. I would say though that a great pass rush forces bad throws and makes the QB more uncomfortable. While good CBs can force coverage sacks and not give a lot of completions enough time and someone will get open.
over the course of a season  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 5/2/2019 6:39 pm : link
it's arguable. Coverage is a more reliable/consistent backbone of a defense than Pass Rush imo. But in a one game elimination playoff setting, a Pass Rush has far more gamebreaking ability as we've seen in all of the Giants' Super Bowl runs. Having a great and consistent pass rush is the best thing a D could have imo.
Both.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/2/2019 6:40 pm : link
.
That's the thing about analytics...  
Dan in the Springs : 5/2/2019 6:46 pm : link
if you adhere to them you have to be prepared to accept things that go against the conventional wisdom. Also, analytical approaches and models differ per team (as well as data) which is why I don't really understand how one can say that analytics were or weren't being used to make decisions, unless the team openly admitted they went with their gut/instincts in spite of what the data told them to do.

Generally game theory spits out suggested strategies, but there are so many variables in football that an analyst could be incorporating in different ways that even then, we don't know that analytics were ignored.

I am often surprised when I hear different coaches reference data in game post-mortems - a lot of the data they mention is not something I personally looked at or thought about. For example, I watch a lot of Belichick's in-season stuff they post at the NE site and he regularly talks about tendencies they found from data.

It's not just the in-game strategies that can seem to be head-scratchers but personnel moves which we can't make sense of are most likely being informed by analytics we don't understand. This is a good example of one that perhaps the Giants were ahead of in this draft.
I agree with tth  
crick n NC : 5/2/2019 6:49 pm : link
I don't see one being more important than the other if you are talking dreadful pass rush or dreadful pass coverage. But as Gatorade said scheme will determine what the priority is.
I agree in the importance of the scheme in deciding which players  
Ira : 5/2/2019 7:00 pm : link
to look for. Bettcher likes to blitz. If your blitzing your corners have to play man. Also when you blitz a lot, you need linebackers and safeties who are good blitzers. You'll get sacks and pressures from people other than edge rushers, so maybe the edge rushers are a little less important in a blitzing scheme.
RE: I agree in the importance of the scheme in deciding which players  
Giantz_comeback : 5/2/2019 7:04 pm : link
In comment 14429497 Ira said:
Quote:
to look for. Bettcher likes to blitz. If your blitzing your corners have to play man. Also when you blitz a lot, you need linebackers and safeties who are good blitzers. You'll get sacks and pressures from people other than edge rushers, so maybe the edge rushers are a little less important in a blitzing scheme.


Wow Pats had same # of sacks as we did.

Agree with above statement and likely why we went with like 5 DBs this draft . Send blitzers from anywhere ...man coverage behind it
Football  
Joey in VA : 5/2/2019 7:07 pm : link
Is the most piece dependent sport on the planet and all of your pieces have to work together to attain maximum success. They are both important, trying to debate which means more is fruitless because it will change by opponent, venue, playing surface, weather, injuries and all of the components that actually determine wins and losses.
Personally I prefer a pass rush to be honest  
PatersonPlank : 5/2/2019 7:10 pm : link
It can cover up a lot of sins in the defensive backfield. However the points above are correct, and you can get there from a good set of CB's and blitzing. In today's game you will be playing 5 DB's a lot of the time.
If by pass rush you mean pressure  
Vegas Steve : 5/2/2019 7:18 pm : link
I agree 100%. Coverage is really the key when you consider the longer a QB has to hold on to the ball these things happen is the QB's mind:

The rhythm of the QB (timing of the play is disrupted).
His internal clock is telling him the ball needs to come out so he rushes through his progressions.

The pass rush Pressure around him real or perceived can give him happy feet.

He may give up on a play prematurely or in an effort to make a play force bad decisions which can lead to errant throws which in turn can and will eventually lead to turnovers.
Pass Rush  
Nine-Tails : 5/2/2019 7:19 pm : link
because if you give a good/great quarterback too much time they can find the soft spot in the coverage.
Pass rush  
Jimmy Googs : 5/2/2019 7:24 pm : link
...
You seldom have a good pass rush without good corners  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/2/2019 7:27 pm : link
and seldom have good corners without a good pass rush. They are complimentary things.
Neither - stopping the run is much more important  
RobCarpenter : 5/2/2019 7:28 pm : link
.
Coverage  
GothamGiants : 5/2/2019 7:33 pm : link
because all it takes is the dink-dunk "basketball on grass" approach to negate it

When you have a secondary that can effectively play man coverage, you don't need elite pass rushers to generate a pass rush. It's simple math:

5 OL + TE blocking = let's rush 7, 1 rusher is free to tee off on the QB.

It's not a coincidence this team drafted Dexter Lawrence followed by 2 excellent press man CBs, let a liability in coverage like Collins walk, made Peppers integral in the Beckham trade, signed Bethea, and used a supplemental pick on Sam Beal.

Quality press man coverage, disruptive DL = scheme the pass rush. 6 guys aren't blocking 7 rushers.
I ordered  
YANKEE28 : 5/2/2019 7:34 pm : link
a chicken and an egg from Amazon

I will let you know
6 things to know ...  
GothamGiants : 5/2/2019 7:46 pm : link
about our DC

His defenses in AZ ranked top 5 in blitz % from 2015-2017 (1st overall twice)

"He knows his X’s and O’s. He knows. He knows how to formulate and contort the defense so that his best players can get the best matchups possible. He really knows how to highlight players.”

Stout run defense + quality secondary play = effective blitz packages with diverse front 7 alignments

Look at every addition/subtraction on defense the last 2 offseasons. It's not a coincidence they've overhauled the entire secondary with guys who excel in press man coverage and just drafted Dexter Lawrence @ 17.
Bettcher - ( New Window )
The formula states 'Average at pass rush'  
SgtDog : 5/2/2019 9:02 pm : link
Since we were 30th in sacks I will go out on a limb here and say we are not average at pass rush. But we should see a big jump with Josh Allen on the roster...oh wait a minute ..nevermind.
RE: I ordered  
DonQuixote : 5/2/2019 9:03 pm : link
In comment 14429538 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
a chicken and an egg from Amazon

I will let you know


egg came first
RE: The formula states 'Average at pass rush'  
GothamGiants : 5/2/2019 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14429662 SgtDog said:
Quote:
Since we were 30th in sacks I will go out on a limb here and say we are not average at pass rush. But we should see a big jump with Josh Allen on the roster...oh wait a minute ..nevermind.


better CBs + 340-350 pound DT = opportunities for more blitzes.

this secondary was a joke last year. still unproven, but the CB talent is loaded and the S tandem has been upgraded significantly in coverage.
Jif?  
Marty in Albany : 5/2/2019 9:29 pm : link
;-)
Actually, I want both, just like the good NFL teams have.
I prefer pass rush  
George : 5/2/2019 9:32 pm : link
because that's what i can see on my television screen and therefore it is the thing that i understand the best. I can't see DB coverages on TV so therefore it can't be as important as a pass rush.
RE: The formula states 'Average at pass rush'  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/3/2019 6:20 am : link
In comment 14429662 SgtDog said:
Quote:
Since we were 30th in sacks I will go out on a limb here and say we are not average at pass rush. But we should see a big jump with Josh Allen on the roster...oh wait a minute ..nevermind.
There was an interesting article on the Patriots and Giants. Both teams were at the bottom of the league in sacks, but they were upper mid-range (7 and 10 I think) in pressure. Surprising, but it was more a symptom of DBs not being able to cover.
They had one of the best defensive tackles in football  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/3/2019 7:11 am : link
last season. It didn't magically produce a ton of pass rushing opportunities last season.

Adding a rookie DT and a clutch of rookie corners is painting over the hole in the drywall.
All that having been said  
idiotsavant : 5/3/2019 8:31 am : link
There's a slew of players on the roster to contend for that edge or interior pass rush rep

Marcus Golden. Others. Ilbs and olbs

Itl be interesting.

Having pro safeties- huge.
Pass Rush,  
RollBlue : 5/3/2019 8:54 am : link
and it's not close. What did the Patriots pass rush look like in the playoffs??? It's the main reason they won another SB.
RE: Pass Rush,  
Giantz_comeback : 5/3/2019 9:50 am : link
In comment 14430049 RollBlue said:
Quote:
and it's not close. What did the Patriots pass rush look like in the playoffs??? It's the main reason they won another SB.


That pass rush was schemed more than anything else. But to your point pass rush is important but if you can't cover in today's quick passing game its negated. We had many years of Tuck, Osi Strahan etc but coverage was so bad that teams still passed on us quite a bit.
One trend is that Lawrence being tall  
idiotsavant : 5/3/2019 9:57 am : link
Some of the so called 3/4 DEs are tall and a few of the OLBs as well.

They want to, at very least, obscure those passing lanes and get QBs moving.

RE: Interesting, I'd like to see the analytic data on coverage sacks  
djstat : 5/3/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14429427 flycatcher said:
Quote:
I think DG believes in it, based on him drafting 4 CBs, including a trade-up. I think our newly-overhauled D has great potential.
Funny I thought he drafted CBs cause we had none worth paper other then JJ and he is a hasbeen
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