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Daniel Jones: strengths and weaknesses

dpinzow : 5/5/2019 12:22 pm
From watching some highlight videos over the weekend, there are some pretty concrete strengths and weaknesses to Daniel Jones' game and overall, made me a little more optimistic about the pick.

Strengths:

1. Mobility. Jones had a 61 yard TD and a 69 yard run off zone read QB draws. I believe the 4.6 or 4.7 40 time he put up. The film shows he has serious wheels and this could be extremely useful if we run a zone read system.

2. Accuracy on the short throws. Jones has a lot more touch on the short throws than Eli did. He usually puts the ball in spots where his receiver can run after the catch. Jones also throws the ball in a very nice rhythm.

3. Poise/composure. No matter how many times Jones is placed under pressure, he doesn't let things get to him. This is very similar to Eli in his prime. His college team was pretty weak; nobody else from Duke got drafted in 2019. In fact, nobody from Duke has been drafted since 2015, so he has never played with anyone in college who was drafted since he was redshirted in 2015).

Weaknesses:

1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB. Can Jones make all the throws? If he can he's a franchise QB, if he can't he's Chad Pennington with wheels.

2. Making reads. At times Jones locks onto one receiver and that will be exploited in the NFL. The sooner he is able to move defenders with his eyes, the better he will be. This will only get better by playing, not by sitting on the bench. If he doesn't learn how to avoid locking onto one receiver he will never be a franchise QB.

3. Accuracy deep. Jones does not put the ball in tight windows beyond 15 yards consistently enough in the videos I've seen.

Overall I think we have a better prospect than the media thinks but Shurmur will have to work with him on the weaker parts of his game for him to reach his full potential. I think a zone read option offense with Saquon and one underneath receiver who can find spaces in the zones and one speed merchant who can take the top off the defense is the best NFL system for Jones. However, to fully utilize that system. Jones will have to improve on his weaknesses in throwing the ball deep.
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Homer  
XBRONX : 5/5/2019 6:00 pm : link
David Jones averaged 11.2 a completion last year. Haskins with his track stars 12.9
RE: Homer  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/5/2019 6:02 pm : link
XBRONX said:
Quote:
David Jones averaged 11.2 a completion last year. Haskins with his track stars 12.9
May we should have drafted this David Jones fellow. Is he still available?
Daniel Jones  
XBRONX : 5/5/2019 6:07 pm : link
Not one of the Monkees.
Franchise  
Giant John : 5/5/2019 6:24 pm : link
And maybe you like being delusional. Whatever. Just remember to admit you were wrong.
RE: Daniel Jones  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/5/2019 6:30 pm : link
XBRONX said:
Quote:
Not one of the Monkees.
Davey Jones (RIP) was even shorter than Kyler Murray. He had moves, though.
RE: RE: RE: You know,  
Nine-Tails : 5/5/2019 6:58 pm : link
In comment 14433123 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14433117 Nine-Tails said:


Quote:


In comment 14433049 TC said:


Quote:


these same criticisms regarding lack of arm strength and an inability of throw deep to the sidelines have been made of plenty of other QB's. Two that come to mind are Philip Rivers, who was called a rag-arm, and Baker Mayfield.

How'd that work out?



The one question mark on Luck was his arm



Yea ok... Daniel Jones is just like Andrew Luck coming out of college...


Jones isn't a Luck caliber prospect. I'm just saying the only negative about Luck during the draft process was his arm and even more so now with the surgeries.
Stop with comparing Haskins arm  
Nine-Tails : 5/5/2019 7:00 pm : link
To Lock and Rosen. His arm is not in the same class as those two. Haskins is a very flawed prospect, Jones has a lot more tools.
Want to compare Jones and Haskins?  
Jay on the Island : 5/5/2019 7:31 pm : link
I hope you take into account the talent discrepancy. Over the past 19 years Duke has had a grand total of 7 players drafted. This year alone Ohio State had 9 players drafted. Haskins had both of his starting wide receivers drafted on day two. He had two offensive linemen. This doesn't count two more players who are expected to be drafted next year including DE Chase Young, who is expected to be a top 10 and possibly top 5 pick in 2020, and RB J.K Dobbins.
RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
NYDCBlue : 5/5/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?


I have watched a metric crap ton of his games now and i think I know where the confusion comes from.

To my eye, it appears as if his coaches worked on his throwing motion in 2018. To me, the weak armed throws seem to have come in games prior to 2018. He way to often used this sort of sidearm pushing motion to throw the ball. You see it come up the most often when he is under heavy pressure and has to unload instantly. When he uses that weird pushing motion to throw the ball it does generally come out sort of weak.... More importantly, he is way less accurate when using that throwing motion. That is when his passes sail on him.

In 2018 I very rarely saw him using that weird push throwing motion. He was much more consistent about getting his arm up and throwing like a proper NFL QB. He also seemed to sail way less passes in 2018. He was like a revelation to my eyes. The Daniel Jones of say, 2017 is at best a mid second round pick. The Jones of 2018 is worth a late first round pick. Somewhere around the twenties or latter. To my totally untrained, not paid professionally eye.
RE: Franchise  
FranchiseQB : 5/5/2019 7:55 pm : link
In comment 14433222 Giant John said:
Quote:
And maybe you like being delusional. Whatever. Just remember to admit you were wrong.


Why would I have to admit I am wrong?

I am excited about the Jones pick. I am happy about what he seems to do well: Efficient, Coach-able, Athletic, Good Runner, Great Short Game, Intelligent, etc etc

I just know that arm talent is not one of his strengths right now. I believe he can improve on it and I believe his arm strength is not a deal breaker. He has a good chance at success, imo.
Daniel Jones  
GothamGiants : 5/5/2019 8:03 pm : link
I’ve linked below a Jones scouting report. Sy & Dave Te have also squashed this arm strength BS narrative, and yet - it’s still alive and well apparently.

Daniel Jones has a good arm. It is not Mahomes 2.0, nor is it a liability. He can make every throw.

Time to pick another reason to knock this pick.
Jones Scouting Report - ( New Window )
RE: How good a runner is he?  
GothamGiants : 5/5/2019 8:14 pm : link
In comment 14432909 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
he averaged a little over 3 yards a carry over his college career and was pretty consistent year by year.

We'll just have to see on the arm businesses. He averaged under 7 yards an attempt throughout his college career and his average completion was 11 yards which are pretty pedestrian. Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.


Those stats may be skewed by the fact his OL was 1 of the 5th worst in the country in terms of pass protection and his WRs dropped 38 passes ... If you’re going to go by college stats, you’re going to hate this pick.

How good of a runner is he? He has an identifcal athletic profile to Josh Allen (BUF) - he ran for 600 yards and 8 TDs as a rookie. Jones’ 3-cone is on par with Baker Mayfield / Russel Wilson and he has legitimate 4.6 speed. (Jones ran 4.6 at proday)

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/josh-allen

https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/daniel-jones-2019

6’5, 4.6 speed (I know his combine time of 4.8 is listed), same vert, better broad jump, same 20-yard shuttle; He’s a very athletic QB

PFF graded Jones better than Darnold, Rosen, and Josh Allen vs. pressure.

Basically, he’s athletic with a good arm and pro-ready mechanics with the toughness to thrive as a pocket passer even when pressured. He’s an excellent QB prospect.





Do you want Aldoris Chapman arm strength  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/5/2019 8:20 pm : link
Would you "settle" for Mariano Rivera arm strength?

A Stat like 40 speed that gets overfetishized by ESPN, fans, and Al Davis.
the reading defenses... lol  
BigBlueCane : 5/5/2019 8:21 pm : link
okay, in CFB, most teams teach and use a fairly simple offense b/c that's all they have time to teach, install and practice during the season. Cutcliffe probably isn't any different. The big thing with him, is he teaches his QB's the process of learning an offense.

GothamGiants: The Pro Day timings came in between 4.64 and 4.67.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/5/2019 8:34 pm : link
I wouldn't call Jones fast, by NFL standards: his legit 40 time is probably around 4.7. That's fine for a QB, as it's good enough to escape pressure and keep most defensive lineman from catching him from behind. The clips of him outrunning the UNC secondary aren't really something you would want him trying to duplicate in the NFL anyway. His speed, like his arm, is "good enough".

To me, the exciting thing about Jones is that he seems to have important strengths and no obvious weaknesses - no traits that you would declare not good enough. His arm talent is a weakness in a relative sense, but maybe not in an absolute sense. We'll find out when he starts throwing deep outs. Those throws looked pretty good at his Pro Day; of course, that's under ideal conditions.

I didn't like the pick. I do like the player.
RE: GothamGiants: The Pro Day timings came in between 4.64 and 4.67.  
GothamGiants : 5/5/2019 8:40 pm : link
In comment 14433343 Big Blue Blogger said:
Quote:
I wouldn't call Jones fast, by NFL standards: his legit 40 time is probably around 4.7. That's fine for a QB, as it's good enough to escape pressure and keep most defensive lineman from catching him from behind. The clips of him outrunning the UNC secondary aren't really something you would want him trying to duplicate in the NFL anyway. His speed, like his arm, is "good enough".

To me, the exciting thing about Jones is that he seems to have important strengths and no obvious weaknesses - no traits that you would declare not good enough. His arm talent is a weakness in a relative sense, but maybe not in an absolute sense. We'll find out when he starts throwing deep outs. Those throws looked pretty good at his Pro Day; of course, that's under ideal conditions.

I didn't like the pick. I do like the player.


He is basically “good” at everything, “great” at nothing. No, he doesn’t have Murray’s speed or Mahomes’ cannon ... but he has no actual glaring hole to his game, is athletic enough to make plays with his legs, has a good arm, is accurate, and is very good under pressure

I’ve seen things like “nothing wows you with Daniel Jones ...” - but he also has no clear physical limitations to his game. He does have a good arm, he has prototype size, and he’s the athletic equivalent of a QB who ran for 600 yards last year.

He is a complete package, although not “elite” across the board.
Franchise  
Giant John : 5/5/2019 8:58 pm : link
Glad you like the pick. Think what you will. Your opinion in this matter means nothing just as mine means nothing to you. I’m fine with that.
RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
joeinpa : 5/5/2019 9:18 pm : link
In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?


This!
RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
.McL. : 5/5/2019 11:44 pm : link
In comment 14432831 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14432809 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?



He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.


This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).

Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.

Examples:






Strahan, I have a different opionion on all 3 of those plays.

When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.

1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.

2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.

Your examples:

1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.

2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.

3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.
I see his issues being more  
.McL. : 5/5/2019 11:49 pm : link
mental than physical.

I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.

Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.
Wr's  
Giants_Rock : 5/6/2019 12:05 am : link
I just hope DG can improve our WR's. Eli had plexico, toomer smith...then Nicks, Cruz, Manningham...then beckham and who ever. This year we have Tate, Shepard,and ?. Tate had 795 yards last ....less than Reuben Randle averaged his last two years here. Couple that with a below average RT and neither Jones or Eli will do well this year
RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 11:28 am : link
In comment 14432831 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14432809 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?



He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.


This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).

Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.

Examples:






I generally agree that arm strength is a weakness of Jones. However, none of those examples you gave are examples of it. The first two gifs were late throws. The first was horribly late, that's a pick 6 in the NFL. The 2nd might be as well. The third was late AND a bad decision with the football.
RE: I see his issues being more  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14433537 .McL. said:
Quote:
mental than physical.

I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.

Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.


Yup ... He pats the ball and is late on making the throw at times, it’s not an “arm strength” issue at all.

Sy, Dave Te, Cosell, Brandt, etc. have all basically said arm strength is not an issue - because it isn’t.
RE: Daniel Jones  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 11:43 am : link
In comment 14433313 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
I’ve linked below a Jones scouting report. Sy & Dave Te have also squashed this arm strength BS narrative, and yet - it’s still alive and well apparently.

Daniel Jones has a good arm. It is not Mahomes 2.0, nor is it a liability. He can make every throw.

Time to pick another reason to knock this pick. Jones Scouting Report - ( New Window )


This is from your own link:

Cosell -
Quote:
Strengths: good natural arm strength with needed velocity on intermediate throws but not a power thrower.
Weaknesses: Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?


All of that does not suggest a ringing endorsement of arm strength.

The only thing Sy'56 said in his analysis of Jones was "enough arm strength", when referring to that aspect of his game.

And I think most have been consistent with this...that his arm is just good enough, but isn't what you would call a strong-armed QB. He doesn't have a big arm. It's just funny we keep arguing about it, the tape on him is obvious he doesn't have it. Now, could he have worked on it and improved it in the pre-Draft preparation process? Absolutely. But until you see it in a live game, it's just a hope. Mini-camp reports are unreliable, it's a hype session every year. I've been watching the Giants for over 30 years and I can't tell you how many guys are so hyped up in mini-camps, OTAs, training camp, and even exhibition games as the next star that was just overlooked by everyone else, and then they don't have any success at all in the NFL.

The most credible information that we have to go on with Daniel Jones is what he put on tape. I do respect a lot of scouts and analysts, and most of them say he doesn't have a strong arm. Adequate arm? Yes. But you can see the difference and it's an important difference. It's not a career-killer, and you can be an exceptional QB without a big arm. But if you have it, it does help you make plays you wouldn't otherwise have the capability to make.
Daniel Jones can make all the throws  
SGMen : 5/6/2019 11:53 am : link
That is all I care about at this point.

As far as what kind of QB he ends up being, well, that make take a few years. There is no guarantee he becomes a franchise QB. There is no guarantee he won't.
Most of the pundits are media types.
.  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 12:12 pm : link
Quote:
1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB.


Is this actually crucial to being a franchise QB? I watch Brady and Brees a lot...they're not powering that throw to the deep sideline. Andrew Luck has also lost a lot off his fastball since the injuries. Hasn't kept him from performing at a high level. I also don't see Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson making many of those power throws to the deep sideline.

Are we even utilizing the deep outs all that much? One of my complaints with shifting to the WCO has been that it eliminated the throws that Eli always threw well: deep outs, fades, and back shoulder fades. But the fact is that those types of throws are kind of antiquated...they aren't high percentage and they don't lead to YAC.

The masters are deploying the ball to the middle of the field, where completion percentages are higher and YAC opportunities greater.

RE: .  
Jon in NYC : 5/6/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14434058 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB.



Is this actually crucial to being a franchise QB? I watch Brady and Brees a lot...they're not powering that throw to the deep sideline. Andrew Luck has also lost a lot off his fastball since the injuries. Hasn't kept him from performing at a high level. I also don't see Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson making many of those power throws to the deep sideline.

Are we even utilizing the deep outs all that much? One of my complaints with shifting to the WCO has been that it eliminated the throws that Eli always threw well: deep outs, fades, and back shoulder fades. But the fact is that those types of throws are kind of antiquated...they aren't high percentage and they don't lead to YAC.

The masters are deploying the ball to the middle of the field, where completion percentages are higher and YAC opportunities greater.


Happy someone finally said it.

"arm talent" is mostly a crock of shit. I'd put it super far down the list of important traits past decision making, accuracy, pre-snap reads, mobility, etc.
It's really not about the deep out  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 12:22 pm : link
It's being able to muscle a ball into a window when you have a defender around your legs and can't get your base into the throw. That requires an arm to get it there. A guy who can make a good, strong, accurate throw there because he has a very strong arm makes a play. A guy who doesn't have a strong arm and throws that ball often times makes a play as well...for the defense.
A lot of off-platform throws  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 12:23 pm : link
You need your arm to do more of the work. If you don't have the power in that arm, then accuracy can suffer or an inability to get the ball to the intended target at all.
Even the guys that we know have big arms...  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 12:27 pm : link
Are they making that throw much? Here's some guys we know have strong arms...check out their average air yards traveled per completed pass:

Stafford: 4.7
Rodgers: 6.0
Mahomes: 6.4
Allen: 6.5

Meanwhile, check out the guys in Tampa:

Winston: 8.4 (2nd longest in the NFL)
Fitzpatrick: 8.8 (longest in the NFL)

For information's sake, Eli's number was 5.3.

Throwing the ball downfield is about scheme more than arm strength. The Buccaneers had the best deep ball WR in the league in Desean Jackson, so they threw the ball down the field even though neither of their QBs had a howitzer.

If exceptional arm strength is actually a critical element of being an NFL QB, it's not reflected in the numbers.
RE: It's really not about the deep out  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14434079 allstarjim said:
Quote:
It's being able to muscle a ball into a window when you have a defender around your legs and can't get your base into the throw. That requires an arm to get it there. A guy who can make a good, strong, accurate throw there because he has a very strong arm makes a play. A guy who doesn't have a strong arm and throws that ball often times makes a play as well...for the defense.

This. In the NFL a good quarterback mostly needs to zip the ball into tight windows. Sometimes QB's that can't have success for a year or two (see: Nick Foles or Case Keenum). Ironically both those guys played their best ball under Shurmur. The alternative is someone who's head and shoulders above 99% of QB's mentally. Think Peyton Manning when his arm started to go late in his career.
Go Terps  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/6/2019 12:33 pm : link
I've been saying that about Eli for a while now. The game has moved away from what he does well and has highlighted his weaknesses. It's not that he has aged a ton compared to his peers, but his game hasn't aged as gracefully.
RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14433532 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14432831 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


In comment 14432809 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:


Quote:


of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?



He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.


This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).

Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.

Examples:








Strahan, I have a different opionion on all 3 of those plays.

When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.

1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.

2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.

Your examples:

1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.

2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.

3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.


Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
Jones' arm  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 12:41 pm : link
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14434108 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14433532 .McL. said:


Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.


I see what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't think play #1 had a chance that ball was thrown so late, Elway doesn't get it there. #2 I don't think does either but I'll allow for the possibility. #3 there were 5 defenders in the middle of the field. A harder, flatter throw probably gets picked, the issue wasn't with zip. There's nowhere to go with that football on that throw that results in a completion to that receiver, no matter how hard you throw it.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 12:49 pm : link
In comment 14434127 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434108 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


In comment 14433532 .McL. said:


Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.



I see what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't think play #1 had a chance that ball was thrown so late, Elway doesn't get it there. #2 I don't think does either but I'll allow for the possibility. #3 there were 5 defenders in the middle of the field. A harder, flatter throw probably gets picked, the issue wasn't with zip. There's nowhere to go with that football on that throw that results in a completion to that receiver, no matter how hard you throw it.

My point on 3 (only gif I could find) was to show that at times the ball wobbles in the air out of his hand. I believe Dave Te mentioned this on his scouting report as well.
RE: Jones' arm  
SGMen : 5/6/2019 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
When Pat Shurmur said "DJ can make all the throws" that was good enough for me. :)

I like Sy's writeup on him, he made something out of nothing at Duke. Despite bad circumstances, he prevailed. This is what makes grading him so freaking hard: he didn't play for Clemson, Alabama, USC or the like. He played for Duke, a borderline Division 2 school if you ask me.

I am so looking forward to hearing how DJ and Lauletta do this coming camp. I may be crazy saying this, but I hope they get to battle it out some. There would be nothing better than having 2 quarterbacks behind Eli that have talent to start. Yes, I'm an optimist with Lauletta for sure but why not be this time of year? Why can't this young man step up and learn from last year's mistakes?
RE: Jones' arm  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.


Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
RE: Wr's  
FJ : 5/6/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14433549 Giants_Rock said:
Quote:
I just hope DG can improve our WR's. Eli had plexico, toomer smith...then Nicks, Cruz, Manningham...then beckham and who ever. This year we have Tate, Shepard,and ?. Tate had 795 yards last ....less than Reuben Randle averaged his last two years here. Couple that with a below average RT and neither Jones or Eli will do well this year


Tate had 2 different seasons in 2018. With the Lions, Tate was on Pace for 100 receptions and 1200 yards. His numbers went South after his trade to the Eagle where he just about disappeared. With an off-season to prepare and learn the offense, I expect to see something closer to the Tate from the first half of 2018.
Mike Leach's opinion  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 1:02 pm : link
[quote]The hosts then asked where arm strength fit into Leach’s evaluations. Keep this in mind as the NFL Draft dominates the national discussion over the next week.

“Nice to have. Not important…It’s among the least important qualities I look for in a quarterback, but it’s good to have just like being fast is good to have,” he said. “I do think no matter who you have you have to have a guy who can throw it crisply 50 yards because there’s a point where you can only protect so long. We figure we can justifiably protect 3-3.5 seconds and I don’t have any skill players, never coached one, that can run an 80-yard dash in 3.5 seconds. And then you look at vertical routes, fade routes you’re throwing on time, those things are 28-t0-35 yards downfield, which then you have to add how far it is to the sideline it’s probably 40, 45 yards. There’s a point to where it’s only relevant on broken plays or emergencies. So it’s good to have in emergencies.

Leach then explained, in typical Leach fashion, the one time it would pay to have a cannon-armed quarterback.

“Your quarterback holds the ball, or say he’s dumb, you’d rather not have a dumb quarterback and he holds the ball and it takes him a long time to sort it out, and finally there’s some guy 55 yards downfield and your offensive line manages to protect that long, it’s nice to know that he can hit him,” he said, “but your bigger problem is that he was dumb enough to hold it that long.”/quote]
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Jones' arm  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.


If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue

RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue


It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 1:41 pm : link
In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue




It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.


- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork

I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.

Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...

"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "

Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
.McL. : 5/6/2019 1:50 pm : link
In comment 14434108 Strahan91 said:
Quote:

Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.

I have to respectfully disagree.

I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.

However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.

The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14434253 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14434108 Strahan91 said:


Quote:



Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.


I have to respectfully disagree.

I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.

However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.

The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.

Greg Cosell compared him to Nick Foles as a thrower. Not a strong arm but can possibly succeed in the NFL. Cosell places him clearly behind Haskins and Lock as a thrower. For my money, I'm no expert, but I do not see the zip that Rosen and Haskins have on his college highlights. Of course he may do many other things much better than they do.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: One of the take-aways from Mini Camp so far is the strength  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14434253 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14434108 Strahan91 said:


Quote:



Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.


I have to respectfully disagree.

I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.

However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.

The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.


This! Decision making/coverage recognition coincide with the scouting reports as well. Excellent points, thank you!

I feel like Jones is in fact the "complete package" physically. 6'5, mobile, good arm, tough ... just needs to read coverages better, which in turn will speed up the decision making process

He doesnt turn the ball over a lot and actually graded quite well v pressure (better than Rosen/Darnold) coming out of college, so I don't think it's something he can't correct - especially working with Eli and Shurmur.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue




It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.



- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork

I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.

Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...

"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "

Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.


I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14434276 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue




It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.



- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork

I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.

Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...

"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "

Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.



I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.


Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.

All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 3:01 pm : link
In comment 14434296 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434276 FranchiseQB said:


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In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:


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In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:


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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


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In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


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"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue




It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.



- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork

I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.

Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...

"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "

Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.



I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.



Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.

All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.


You and I have different definitions of the "complete package". I'm not even down on Jones. But I am realistic. He definitely has a lot of traits I look for with a QB:

Escapability
Pocket Awareness
Quick progressions
Make throws on the run
Can run for a first down when needed
Physically and mentally tough
High character
Physical prototype when it comes to height, weight, hand size

Al of those I give him high marks for. Throwing the football is a mixed bag with him, though.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Jones' arm  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14434369 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434296 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434276 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."

- Dave Te

"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."

- Sy 56

"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "

- Cosell

at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...

This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.



Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"

Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."

"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.

Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.



If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue




It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.



- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork

I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.

Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...

"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "

Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.



I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.



Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.

All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.



You and I have different definitions of the "complete package". I'm not even down on Jones. But I am realistic. He definitely has a lot of traits I look for with a QB:

Escapability
Pocket Awareness
Quick progressions
Make throws on the run
Can run for a first down when needed
Physically and mentally tough
High character
Physical prototype when it comes to height, weight, hand size

Al of those I give him high marks for. Throwing the football is a mixed bag with him, though.


We’re not that far off ... I just view some of his deficiencies as more “mental” than physical limitations.

He’ll never be Mahomes, few QBs have the ability to flick a 50 yard pass off balance ... but his arm strength is a non issue and from what it sounds like he’s got the work ethic/intelligence to correct those weaknesses

I guess we’ll find out if his issues are more due to inconsistent accuracy/arm talent or just inability to read/exploit coverages consistently

I’ve seen enough throws of his to be convinced a lack of arm “strength” is not the problem. He’s consistently hitting WRs under pressure/in tight windows and throws a rather effortless 40+ yard deep ball.
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