From watching some highlight videos over the weekend, there are some pretty concrete strengths and weaknesses to Daniel Jones' game and overall, made me a little more optimistic about the pick.
Strengths:
1. Mobility. Jones had a 61 yard TD and a 69 yard run off zone read QB draws. I believe the 4.6 or 4.7 40 time he put up. The film shows he has serious wheels and this could be extremely useful if we run a zone read system.
2. Accuracy on the short throws. Jones has a lot more touch on the short throws than Eli did. He usually puts the ball in spots where his receiver can run after the catch. Jones also throws the ball in a very nice rhythm.
3. Poise/composure. No matter how many times Jones is placed under pressure, he doesn't let things get to him. This is very similar to Eli in his prime. His college team was pretty weak; nobody else from Duke got drafted in 2019. In fact, nobody from Duke has been drafted since 2015, so he has never played with anyone in college who was drafted since he was redshirted in 2015).
Weaknesses:
1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB. Can Jones make all the throws? If he can he's a franchise QB, if he can't he's Chad Pennington with wheels.
2. Making reads. At times Jones locks onto one receiver and that will be exploited in the NFL. The sooner he is able to move defenders with his eyes, the better he will be. This will only get better by playing, not by sitting on the bench. If he doesn't learn how to avoid locking onto one receiver he will never be a franchise QB.
3. Accuracy deep. Jones does not put the ball in tight windows beyond 15 yards consistently enough in the videos I've seen.
Overall I think we have a better prospect than the media thinks but Shurmur will have to work with him on the weaker parts of his game for him to reach his full potential. I think a zone read option offense with Saquon and one underneath receiver who can find spaces in the zones and one speed merchant who can take the top off the defense is the best NFL system for Jones. However, to fully utilize that system. Jones will have to improve on his weaknesses in throwing the ball deep.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
You come off mad that the Giants drafted a QB. Go away.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
Eli's biggest weakness as a QB is him overcooking the short throws. How many times have we complained about Eli missing a screen pass or throwing a short pass too hard? His greatest strength as a QB were making the intermediate and long throws in the Gilbride system
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
I've seen Eli do the same thing(as in those videos) a lot over the past 15 or so years.
One of the issues this team has had the past years is there has been no room to look ahead. They have had no one worth signing even a second contract. And people wonder why this team keeps losing.
So, getting a new starting QB wasn't a glaring hole to fill?
It's not about 2019. How are you not aware of that? 2019 is nothing more than a transitional year for the Giants. It's about 2020 and going forward.
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
The outs I have seen DJ throw in college will be pick sixes in the NFL. He will need to improve that now.
Yet another poster who doesn't understand the point of the draft. Was Patrick Mahomes a waste of a pick because he sat for a year when the Chiefs had holes to fill? Was Aaron Rodgers a waste of a pick because he sat for 3 years? Eli sat for 9 games was he a waste of a pick?
You would rather pick a player that can help the Giants immediately in a season where they are unlikely to make the playoffs over a franchise QB? Great idea! It worked so well when we drafted for need and took Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple in the top 10!
We'll just have to see on the arm businesses. He averaged under 7 yards an attempt throughout his college career and his average completion was 11 yards which are pretty pedestrian. Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.
The main & only thing that matters in his development is "can DJ read an NFL defense??" and NO ONE can answer that at this time because he hasn't practiced, played in a pre-season game, learned, and (gulp) started an NFL game. It won't be until the real game that even the coaches fully KNOW he is the man to replace Eli for this franchise going forward 2020 and beyond.
I advocate for DJ to get a lot of work in pre-season, particularly maybe he STARTS game 4 and plays 3 quarters. Let Lauletta play the 4th (and yes, I believe he matures and shows well this year which bodes well for us) and we go into the season with two young guys.
Right now, we are in the "FIRST DATE" period and all is rosy. When the first passes fly in pre-season people will scream if DJ is off. They will praise if he is on. But we know this is all learning curve and don't read TOO MUCH into any of this.
The coaches know. Look at Webb last year. Is he even on a team right now?
Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.
You really don't have to talk about his arm constantly. That's entirely voluntary.
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Jones has a better arm than Haskins
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Jones has a better arm than Haskins
No he does not. That is absurd to say and objectively untrue.
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw.
Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
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at least, combine velocity. Jones 54 > Haskins 52
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw. Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
I've seen him throw, and I wouldn't say he has an extremely live arm. He has a good arm and can make all the throws, but it's not special by any means. Jones has a good arm too, and Dave Te says he see him as someone improving his arm in the league too. SUre most would say Haskins has a better arm, but its not a big difference.
Also, put Jones on OSU, he would be hyped up as the top qb in the draft by the pundits. Put Haskins in Duke, and he would crumble.
The game and the combine are two different things. Who knows who will be better but jones had to basically two step into his deep throws at the combine. The commentators even said that'll never fly in the NFL. If he had natural zip on his sideline throws, you'd see it. People's sensitivity to criticism is so strange.
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In comment 14432941 Nine-Tails said:
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at least, combine velocity. Jones 54 > Haskins 52
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw. Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
I've seen him throw, and I wouldn't say he has an extremely live arm. He has a good arm and can make all the throws, but it's not special by any means. Jones has a good arm too, and Dave Te says he see him as someone improving his arm in the league too. SUre most would say Haskins has a better arm, but its not a big difference.
Also, put Jones on OSU, he would be hyped up as the top qb in the draft by the pundits. Put Haskins in Duke, and he would crumble.
Of Haskins, Cosell says, "Looks the part. He's a very talented thrower. He projects as a pocket quarterback. He has prototypical size. He has a strong powerful arm. To be cliched but true he can certainly make any throw... He certainly has tools, he's toolsy... People will look at him as having a high ceiling." And when Cosell describes Jones he never mentions his arm as being anything more than adequate. Jones game depends on efficiency and pre-snap reads. In other words, in terms of arm talent, it is not close between these two, at least for now. If you think they are equal in arm talent you are in for a very big disappointment in the next two years.
Now Cosell does not think Haskins is an automatic star in the NFL. he needs a lot of work, most agree.
By the way, I am stoked about Jones. I am looking forward to seeing what he becomes. But out of the gate, in terms of arm talent alone, he is far behind Haskins, Murray and Lock.
How'd that work out?
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
And you are basing this on? Your shtick of watching YouTube clips and pretending you are some sort of expert QB analyst is hilarious.
How does one determine "natural arm talent"? If Jones is making all the same throws does he have "natural arm talent"? Does Josh Allen have "natural arm talent" if he cant' hit the side of a barn with his passes? If Lock has "natural arm talent" why did he have the same velocity as Jones at the combine? Why did Haskins have 2mph less? It seems to be a pretty arbitrary thing you pulled out of your arse.
None of us have any idea what we are talking about. All these guys are starting out the same. It will have come down to how they play in the NFL. Not college highlights on YouTube.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
And you are basing this on? Your shtick of watching YouTube clips and pretending you are some sort of expert QB analyst is hilarious.
How does one determine "natural arm talent"? If Jones is making all the same throws does he have "natural arm talent"? Does Josh Allen have "natural arm talent" if he cant' hit the side of a barn with his passes? If Lock has "natural arm talent" why did he have the same velocity as Jones at the combine? Why did Haskins have 2mph less? It seems to be a pretty arbitrary thing you pulled out of your arse.
None of us have any idea what we are talking about. All these guys are starting out the same. It will have come down to how they play in the NFL. Not college highlights on YouTube.
I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. I am quoting a reputable analyst who has watched more football tape than just about anyone else you can mention. These guys are not starting out the same. There are clear differences. If you disagree I am happy to hear what you base it on. But it sounds like you want to just rag on me, evidence be damned.. Go ahead. It says a lot more about your ability to hold a nuanced point of view that it says anything about me.
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these same criticisms regarding lack of arm strength and an inability of throw deep to the sidelines have been made of plenty of other QB's. Two that come to mind are Philip Rivers, who was called a rag-arm, and Baker Mayfield.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
Yea ok... Daniel Jones is just like Andrew Luck coming out of college...
With regard to the clips Strahan91 posted above, the first appeared to be thrown very late, the second was late and also a bit low, and the third is a flat-out duck that should never have been thrown at all. They are all bad plays, but I don't see Jones's arm as the problem in any of them.
With regard to the clips Strahan91 posted above, the first appeared to be thrown very late, the second was late and also a bit low, and the third is a flat-out duck that should never have been thrown at all. They are all bad plays, but I don't see Jones's arm as the problem in any of them.
Compared to Haskins, Lock and Rosen he has subpar arm talent. It's not really in dispute.
Maybe you just like to laugh. Who can blame you. He doesn't throw the ball on a rope. Haskins does however.
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In comment 14433049 TC said:
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these same criticisms regarding lack of arm strength and an inability of throw deep to the sidelines have been made of plenty of other QB's. Two that come to mind are Philip Rivers, who was called a rag-arm, and Baker Mayfield.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
Yea ok... Daniel Jones is just like Andrew Luck coming out of college...
Jones isn't a Luck caliber prospect. I'm just saying the only negative about Luck during the draft process was his arm and even more so now with the surgeries.
I have watched a metric crap ton of his games now and i think I know where the confusion comes from.
To my eye, it appears as if his coaches worked on his throwing motion in 2018. To me, the weak armed throws seem to have come in games prior to 2018. He way to often used this sort of sidearm pushing motion to throw the ball. You see it come up the most often when he is under heavy pressure and has to unload instantly. When he uses that weird pushing motion to throw the ball it does generally come out sort of weak.... More importantly, he is way less accurate when using that throwing motion. That is when his passes sail on him.
In 2018 I very rarely saw him using that weird push throwing motion. He was much more consistent about getting his arm up and throwing like a proper NFL QB. He also seemed to sail way less passes in 2018. He was like a revelation to my eyes. The Daniel Jones of say, 2017 is at best a mid second round pick. The Jones of 2018 is worth a late first round pick. Somewhere around the twenties or latter. To my totally untrained, not paid professionally eye.
Why would I have to admit I am wrong?
I am excited about the Jones pick. I am happy about what he seems to do well: Efficient, Coach-able, Athletic, Good Runner, Great Short Game, Intelligent, etc etc
I just know that arm talent is not one of his strengths right now. I believe he can improve on it and I believe his arm strength is not a deal breaker. He has a good chance at success, imo.
Daniel Jones has a good arm. It is not Mahomes 2.0, nor is it a liability. He can make every throw.
Time to pick another reason to knock this pick.
Jones Scouting Report - ( New Window )
We'll just have to see on the arm businesses. He averaged under 7 yards an attempt throughout his college career and his average completion was 11 yards which are pretty pedestrian. Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.
Those stats may be skewed by the fact his OL was 1 of the 5th worst in the country in terms of pass protection and his WRs dropped 38 passes ... If you’re going to go by college stats, you’re going to hate this pick.
How good of a runner is he? He has an identifcal athletic profile to Josh Allen (BUF) - he ran for 600 yards and 8 TDs as a rookie. Jones’ 3-cone is on par with Baker Mayfield / Russel Wilson and he has legitimate 4.6 speed. (Jones ran 4.6 at proday)
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/josh-allen
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/daniel-jones-2019
6’5, 4.6 speed (I know his combine time of 4.8 is listed), same vert, better broad jump, same 20-yard shuttle; He’s a very athletic QB
PFF graded Jones better than Darnold, Rosen, and Josh Allen vs. pressure.
Basically, he’s athletic with a good arm and pro-ready mechanics with the toughness to thrive as a pocket passer even when pressured. He’s an excellent QB prospect.
A Stat like 40 speed that gets overfetishized by ESPN, fans, and Al Davis.
To me, the exciting thing about Jones is that he seems to have important strengths and no obvious weaknesses - no traits that you would declare not good enough. His arm talent is a weakness in a relative sense, but maybe not in an absolute sense. We'll find out when he starts throwing deep outs. Those throws looked pretty good at his Pro Day; of course, that's under ideal conditions.
I didn't like the pick. I do like the player.
To me, the exciting thing about Jones is that he seems to have important strengths and no obvious weaknesses - no traits that you would declare not good enough. His arm talent is a weakness in a relative sense, but maybe not in an absolute sense. We'll find out when he starts throwing deep outs. Those throws looked pretty good at his Pro Day; of course, that's under ideal conditions.
I didn't like the pick. I do like the player.
He is basically “good” at everything, “great” at nothing. No, he doesn’t have Murray’s speed or Mahomes’ cannon ... but he has no actual glaring hole to his game, is athletic enough to make plays with his legs, has a good arm, is accurate, and is very good under pressure
I’ve seen things like “nothing wows you with Daniel Jones ...” - but he also has no clear physical limitations to his game. He does have a good arm, he has prototype size, and he’s the athletic equivalent of a QB who ran for 600 yards last year.
He is a complete package, although not “elite” across the board.
This!
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
Strahan, I have a different opionion on all 3 of those plays.
When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.
1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.
2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.
Your examples:
1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.
2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.
3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.
I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.
Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
I generally agree that arm strength is a weakness of Jones. However, none of those examples you gave are examples of it. The first two gifs were late throws. The first was horribly late, that's a pick 6 in the NFL. The 2nd might be as well. The third was late AND a bad decision with the football.
I am not concerned with his arm strength, or arm talent.
Its his mental processes and decisions that concern me.
Yup ... He pats the ball and is late on making the throw at times, it’s not an “arm strength” issue at all.
Sy, Dave Te, Cosell, Brandt, etc. have all basically said arm strength is not an issue - because it isn’t.
Daniel Jones has a good arm. It is not Mahomes 2.0, nor is it a liability. He can make every throw.
Time to pick another reason to knock this pick. Jones Scouting Report - ( New Window )
This is from your own link:
Cosell -
Weaknesses: Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?
All of that does not suggest a ringing endorsement of arm strength.
The only thing Sy'56 said in his analysis of Jones was "enough arm strength", when referring to that aspect of his game.
And I think most have been consistent with this...that his arm is just good enough, but isn't what you would call a strong-armed QB. He doesn't have a big arm. It's just funny we keep arguing about it, the tape on him is obvious he doesn't have it. Now, could he have worked on it and improved it in the pre-Draft preparation process? Absolutely. But until you see it in a live game, it's just a hope. Mini-camp reports are unreliable, it's a hype session every year. I've been watching the Giants for over 30 years and I can't tell you how many guys are so hyped up in mini-camps, OTAs, training camp, and even exhibition games as the next star that was just overlooked by everyone else, and then they don't have any success at all in the NFL.
The most credible information that we have to go on with Daniel Jones is what he put on tape. I do respect a lot of scouts and analysts, and most of them say he doesn't have a strong arm. Adequate arm? Yes. But you can see the difference and it's an important difference. It's not a career-killer, and you can be an exceptional QB without a big arm. But if you have it, it does help you make plays you wouldn't otherwise have the capability to make.
As far as what kind of QB he ends up being, well, that make take a few years. There is no guarantee he becomes a franchise QB. There is no guarantee he won't.
Most of the pundits are media types.
Is this actually crucial to being a franchise QB? I watch Brady and Brees a lot...they're not powering that throw to the deep sideline. Andrew Luck has also lost a lot off his fastball since the injuries. Hasn't kept him from performing at a high level. I also don't see Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson making many of those power throws to the deep sideline.
Are we even utilizing the deep outs all that much? One of my complaints with shifting to the WCO has been that it eliminated the throws that Eli always threw well: deep outs, fades, and back shoulder fades. But the fact is that those types of throws are kind of antiquated...they aren't high percentage and they don't lead to YAC.
The masters are deploying the ball to the middle of the field, where completion percentages are higher and YAC opportunities greater.
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1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB.
Is this actually crucial to being a franchise QB? I watch Brady and Brees a lot...they're not powering that throw to the deep sideline. Andrew Luck has also lost a lot off his fastball since the injuries. Hasn't kept him from performing at a high level. I also don't see Matt Ryan or Russell Wilson making many of those power throws to the deep sideline.
Are we even utilizing the deep outs all that much? One of my complaints with shifting to the WCO has been that it eliminated the throws that Eli always threw well: deep outs, fades, and back shoulder fades. But the fact is that those types of throws are kind of antiquated...they aren't high percentage and they don't lead to YAC.
The masters are deploying the ball to the middle of the field, where completion percentages are higher and YAC opportunities greater.
Happy someone finally said it.
"arm talent" is mostly a crock of shit. I'd put it super far down the list of important traits past decision making, accuracy, pre-snap reads, mobility, etc.
Stafford: 4.7
Rodgers: 6.0
Mahomes: 6.4
Allen: 6.5
Meanwhile, check out the guys in Tampa:
Winston: 8.4 (2nd longest in the NFL)
Fitzpatrick: 8.8 (longest in the NFL)
For information's sake, Eli's number was 5.3.
Throwing the ball downfield is about scheme more than arm strength. The Buccaneers had the best deep ball WR in the league in Desean Jackson, so they threw the ball down the field even though neither of their QBs had a howitzer.
If exceptional arm strength is actually a critical element of being an NFL QB, it's not reflected in the numbers.
This. In the NFL a good quarterback mostly needs to zip the ball into tight windows. Sometimes QB's that can't have success for a year or two (see: Nick Foles or Case Keenum). Ironically both those guys played their best ball under Shurmur. The alternative is someone who's head and shoulders above 99% of QB's mentally. Think Peyton Manning when his arm started to go late in his career.
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In comment 14432809 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
Strahan, I have a different opionion on all 3 of those plays.
When I evaluatd Jones, I saw two weaknesses not mentioned by the OP. But the weaknesses are somewhat related.
1. Seeing the field, maybe call this spacial judgement. He has difficulty judging when a defender has angle on his throw. He doesn't seem to be able to figure out where a defender will be by the time his throw arrives. He fails to realize that a defender in position to drive on a ball can accelerate wuickly and be there to break it up or intercept it. He has a lot of bad throws like this. Sometimes this leads to poor ball placement. I remember a short throw to his TE being covered by a LB in a zone coverage. The corner saw the throw and started driving on the ball from the outside. If Jones had judged it correctly he would have thrown away from the corner who would arrive first since the LB had to change direction. The ball should have been shaded inside instead of outside. The TE dropped it because he heard the footsteps, and he did get clobbered.
2. Decision making, I say this is somewhat related to the first, because I think his bad decisions come from not seeing the field well. But he has a tendency to only view the coverage in terms of the primary defender. He fails to take into account a 2nd defender who might be providing help. Espcially in bracketed coverage, over under, or right left brackets. He will still throw into the double coverage.
Your examples:
1. He hesitates on the throw, he stutter hops 4 times before releasing, and he doesn't calculate that during his hesitation the CB is now driving on the ball and he is lucky it wasn't a pick 6. He didn't realize the CB would get there in time. 1 stutter hop to reset his fett would have been ok and probably meant a completion. I have no idea why he hesitated. A bad mental process all around.
2. Again, totally miscalculates that the safety is already driving on that ball before he even winds up. A better throw would have been to go over the top leading downfield and to the outside. Bad decision on the type and placement of the throw.
3. This is the 2nd weakness, misreading the zone and not taking into consideration the bracketing (over under in this case). He also hesitates and stutter hops a few times. Just abysmal decision making the throw to that guy. He needs to go to the next guy in his progression.
Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
I see what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't think play #1 had a chance that ball was thrown so late, Elway doesn't get it there. #2 I don't think does either but I'll allow for the possibility. #3 there were 5 defenders in the middle of the field. A harder, flatter throw probably gets picked, the issue wasn't with zip. There's nowhere to go with that football on that throw that results in a completion to that receiver, no matter how hard you throw it.
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In comment 14433532 .McL. said:
Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
I see what you're saying, I just don't agree. I don't think play #1 had a chance that ball was thrown so late, Elway doesn't get it there. #2 I don't think does either but I'll allow for the possibility. #3 there were 5 defenders in the middle of the field. A harder, flatter throw probably gets picked, the issue wasn't with zip. There's nowhere to go with that football on that throw that results in a completion to that receiver, no matter how hard you throw it.
My point on 3 (only gif I could find) was to show that at times the ball wobbles in the air out of his hand. I believe Dave Te mentioned this on his scouting report as well.
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
I like Sy's writeup on him, he made something out of nothing at Duke. Despite bad circumstances, he prevailed. This is what makes grading him so freaking hard: he didn't play for Clemson, Alabama, USC or the like. He played for Duke, a borderline Division 2 school if you ask me.
I am so looking forward to hearing how DJ and Lauletta do this coming camp. I may be crazy saying this, but I hope they get to battle it out some. There would be nothing better than having 2 quarterbacks behind Eli that have talent to start. Yes, I'm an optimist with Lauletta for sure but why not be this time of year? Why can't this young man step up and learn from last year's mistakes?
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
Tate had 2 different seasons in 2018. With the Lions, Tate was on Pace for 100 receptions and 1200 yards. His numbers went South after his trade to the Eagle where he just about disappeared. With an off-season to prepare and learn the offense, I expect to see something closer to the Tate from the first half of 2018.
“Nice to have. Not important…It’s among the least important qualities I look for in a quarterback, but it’s good to have just like being fast is good to have,” he said. “I do think no matter who you have you have to have a guy who can throw it crisply 50 yards because there’s a point where you can only protect so long. We figure we can justifiably protect 3-3.5 seconds and I don’t have any skill players, never coached one, that can run an 80-yard dash in 3.5 seconds. And then you look at vertical routes, fade routes you’re throwing on time, those things are 28-t0-35 yards downfield, which then you have to add how far it is to the sideline it’s probably 40, 45 yards. There’s a point to where it’s only relevant on broken plays or emergencies. So it’s good to have in emergencies.
Leach then explained, in typical Leach fashion, the one time it would pay to have a cannon-armed quarterback.
“Your quarterback holds the ball, or say he’s dumb, you’d rather not have a dumb quarterback and he holds the ball and it takes him a long time to sort it out, and finally there’s some guy 55 yards downfield and your offensive line manages to protect that long, it’s nice to know that he can hit him,” he said, “but your bigger problem is that he was dumb enough to hold it that long.”/quote]
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
Quote:
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork
I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.
Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...
"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "
Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
I have to respectfully disagree.
I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.
However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.
The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.
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Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
I have to respectfully disagree.
I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.
However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.
The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.
Greg Cosell compared him to Nick Foles as a thrower. Not a strong arm but can possibly succeed in the NFL. Cosell places him clearly behind Haskins and Lock as a thrower. For my money, I'm no expert, but I do not see the zip that Rosen and Haskins have on his college highlights. Of course he may do many other things much better than they do.
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Both a lack of zip and the issues you point out can be occurring simultaneously. In fact, those are the two biggest criticisms of Jones -- his lack of zip at times to put the ball in the right spot with zip and his lack of anticipation of certain coverages when he's asked to sit in the pocket for a few seconds. Both plays 1 and 2 could've been completed if they were put in the right spot with the right amount of zip on the ball. On the latter he tries to whip his arm quickly but still the ball doesn't come out with any sort of juice. Play 3 was just to show the lack of velocity, the ball just kind of floats in the air.
I have to respectfully disagree.
I just don't see zip as an issue in those 3 plays, nor in watching his game tapes in general.
However, what I pointed out as weaknesses in seeing the field/angles, and poor decisions (hesitations, and throwing into bracket coverage) are repeated many times all through his game tapes. You picked 3 good examples. There are even completions where I see the 2 issues I mention. Poor anticipation, and hesitation can be mistaken for poor arm strength.
The counter to the weak arm theory is that there are examples of him making some 20 - 30 yard completions with good zip on the ball. If he CAN make those throws, then he has the arm strength, whether he always uses it or throws with proper mechanics to get it out with the zip is a different question. He can throw with enough zip though.
This! Decision making/coverage recognition coincide with the scouting reports as well. Excellent points, thank you!
I feel like Jones is in fact the "complete package" physically. 6'5, mobile, good arm, tough ... just needs to read coverages better, which in turn will speed up the decision making process
He doesnt turn the ball over a lot and actually graded quite well v pressure (better than Rosen/Darnold) coming out of college, so I don't think it's something he can't correct - especially working with Eli and Shurmur.
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In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork
I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.
Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...
"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "
Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.
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In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
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"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork
I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.
Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...
"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "
Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.
Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.
All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.
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In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
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"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork
I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.
Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...
"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "
Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.
Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.
All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.
You and I have different definitions of the "complete package". I'm not even down on Jones. But I am realistic. He definitely has a lot of traits I look for with a QB:
Escapability
Pocket Awareness
Quick progressions
Make throws on the run
Can run for a first down when needed
Physically and mentally tough
High character
Physical prototype when it comes to height, weight, hand size
Al of those I give him high marks for. Throwing the football is a mixed bag with him, though.
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In comment 14434276 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14434232 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434176 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434155 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14434142 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14434116 GothamGiants said:
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"Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength, ..."
- Dave Te
"Despite playing with inferior talent both up front and at the skill positions nearly every week, Jones put together a productive career as both a passer and rusher. The prototypical quarterback when it comes to size and playing style showed glimpses over the past two years of what a first round QB should look like. His NFL-caliber mechanics from head to toe give him the look of a professional passer and him being coached by David Cutcliffe, the college coach of both Peyton and Eli Manning, only helps strengthen the notion of how ready he is. Jones pairs that with toughness and grit that doesn’t come around often."
- Sy 56
"Exellent size and build for the position. Good natural arm strength with needed velocity ... Threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory/good accuracy ... Threw with consistently precise ball placement ... "
- Cosell
at the combine, threw with the same MPH velocity as Lock/Tyree Jackson and their "cannon" arms ... threw harder than Dwayne Haskins ...
This "concern" with arm strength is absolute bullshit.
Really selective editing there. Completely left out Cosell also said "not a power arm." And, in "His weaknesses...Can Jones sit on his back foot in the pocket and drive the ball when needed?"
Dave Te' did say there was no questioning his arm strength. Then he said this as well: "Jones shows adequate zip on his short to intermediate throws, but his long ball does float too much and he needs to get the ball away with a more consistent spiral (ball gets away from him when going deep)."
"Adequate zip" and "long ball does float too much" does not indicate a strong arm. Adequate arm, yes. We are talking about a strong arm, though. Like a Rosen, an Allen, a Flacco, an Elway, an Aaron Rodgers, a Roethlisberger, a Carson Wentz.
Nobody is saying he has a noodle arm (at least nobody I know of). People are questioning if he has a strong arm like the above QBs...and as a college QB he showed he didn't have that kind of arm. This CAN improve.
If he doesn’t have a noodle arm, then it’s a non issue
It's part of the evaluation, it does make a difference. I think a lot of people wanted the next QB to emphatically check every box. When you are looking at a class next year with Fromm and some of the other QBs that will be available, and Sunshine Lawrence the following year, with Eli's time with the Giants coming to a close...and you take a QB at #6 overall with elite talent available, you hope that he is a tremendous QB, a stud that is a true championship-caliber franchise QB. Is he that? It's possible. A lot of people talk about him as a game-manager type, also. I think both extremes are unfair, but I also think because he isn't that elite prospect, that #6 overall was too rich for him. Arm strength is an aspect that dings him a little in that eval.
- Prototype QB size
- 4.6 speed with nearly identical athletic profile to Josh Allen (#2 rushing QB in the NFL)
- Tough; Graded higher vs. pressure than Darnold/Rosen by PFF
- Good arm (no, it's not Mahomes cannon - oh well)
- Thrives in short/intermediate passing game
- Pro-ready mechanics/footwork
I am not saying Jones is flawless, but his weaknesses are mental/not physical. He has "the complete packge" no one else wants to admit.
Dave Te, here's pretty much everything related to what he's said regarding his arm strength ...
"Jones has good size and arm strength for the quarterback position... Jones does have the arm strength that pro teams want him to display ... His arm strength is his best asset, especially on short-to-intermediate tosses ... Arm Strength...There is no questioning his arm strength ... Jones compensates for his adequate zone coverage reading skills with good power and snap in his release. He delivers the ball with good over-the-top mechanics and releases the ball with good quickness, coming straight back with the ball to generate more power behind his throws ... He has good touch on short-to-intermediate throws and shows more than enough arm strength going deep (just inconsistent) ... He generally throws a nice, easy ball with very good placement standing or stepping up in the pocket, though (troubles happen on the move). When given time, he can get the ball off with a tight spiral and good arc, allowing the receivers to catch in stride rather than have to adjust in their routes... "
Again, Jones is not perfect - but this "concern" over arm strength is absolute nonsense.
I'll take Cosell over Dave Te. His arm may be good enough, but it is not the strength of his game at this time.
Cosell likes him even more than Dave Te ... and no, his arm isn't the "Strength of his game" nor is it a liability/legitimate concern.
All Jones needs to do is beef up the mental aspect of the game. He has 0 physical limitations/deficits/concerns. The "complete package", whether people want to admit it or not.
You and I have different definitions of the "complete package". I'm not even down on Jones. But I am realistic. He definitely has a lot of traits I look for with a QB:
Escapability
Pocket Awareness
Quick progressions
Make throws on the run
Can run for a first down when needed
Physically and mentally tough
High character
Physical prototype when it comes to height, weight, hand size
Al of those I give him high marks for. Throwing the football is a mixed bag with him, though.
We’re not that far off ... I just view some of his deficiencies as more “mental” than physical limitations.
He’ll never be Mahomes, few QBs have the ability to flick a 50 yard pass off balance ... but his arm strength is a non issue and from what it sounds like he’s got the work ethic/intelligence to correct those weaknesses
I guess we’ll find out if his issues are more due to inconsistent accuracy/arm talent or just inability to read/exploit coverages consistently
I’ve seen enough throws of his to be convinced a lack of arm “strength” is not the problem. He’s consistently hitting WRs under pressure/in tight windows and throws a rather effortless 40+ yard deep ball.