From watching some highlight videos over the weekend, there are some pretty concrete strengths and weaknesses to Daniel Jones' game and overall, made me a little more optimistic about the pick.
Strengths:
1. Mobility. Jones had a 61 yard TD and a 69 yard run off zone read QB draws. I believe the 4.6 or 4.7 40 time he put up. The film shows he has serious wheels and this could be extremely useful if we run a zone read system.
2. Accuracy on the short throws. Jones has a lot more touch on the short throws than Eli did. He usually puts the ball in spots where his receiver can run after the catch. Jones also throws the ball in a very nice rhythm.
3. Poise/composure. No matter how many times Jones is placed under pressure, he doesn't let things get to him. This is very similar to Eli in his prime. His college team was pretty weak; nobody else from Duke got drafted in 2019. In fact, nobody from Duke has been drafted since 2015, so he has never played with anyone in college who was drafted since he was redshirted in 2015).
Weaknesses:
1. Arm strength. I saw very few throws to the sideline over 10 yards. This is crucial to being a franchise QB. Can Jones make all the throws? If he can he's a franchise QB, if he can't he's Chad Pennington with wheels.
2. Making reads. At times Jones locks onto one receiver and that will be exploited in the NFL. The sooner he is able to move defenders with his eyes, the better he will be. This will only get better by playing, not by sitting on the bench. If he doesn't learn how to avoid locking onto one receiver he will never be a franchise QB.
3. Accuracy deep. Jones does not put the ball in tight windows beyond 15 yards consistently enough in the videos I've seen.
Overall I think we have a better prospect than the media thinks but Shurmur will have to work with him on the weaker parts of his game for him to reach his full potential. I think a zone read option offense with Saquon and one underneath receiver who can find spaces in the zones and one speed merchant who can take the top off the defense is the best NFL system for Jones. However, to fully utilize that system. Jones will have to improve on his weaknesses in throwing the ball deep.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
You come off mad that the Giants drafted a QB. Go away.
Not attacking you, btw, just saying I don’t really understand that point. I’ve heard a few fans here say that more than once. Does and can Eli do that 100% of the time? No, of course not, and neither will Jones, especially if the Oline is weak. But I think Eli’s accuracy on the short throws is VERY good. Hope Jones can be as good one day with weak Olines and elite pass rushers coming after him.
Eli's biggest weakness as a QB is him overcooking the short throws. How many times have we complained about Eli missing a screen pass or throwing a short pass too hard? His greatest strength as a QB were making the intermediate and long throws in the Gilbride system
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
I've seen Eli do the same thing(as in those videos) a lot over the past 15 or so years.
One of the issues this team has had the past years is there has been no room to look ahead. They have had no one worth signing even a second contract. And people wonder why this team keeps losing.
So, getting a new starting QB wasn't a glaring hole to fill?
It's not about 2019. How are you not aware of that? 2019 is nothing more than a transitional year for the Giants. It's about 2020 and going forward.
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
This is a key point. There's a big difference between arm strength and arm talent but people (even experts) use the two interchangeably at times which leads to confusion. Trent Dilfer has talked about this before and the lack of arm talent being an issue he struggled with despite having arm strength. Arm talent being the ability to put the proper touch on each throw relative to the specific situation (arc and velocity).
Where Jones struggled in college is velocity. When throwing the ball to the sidelines he (at times) struggled to put enough juice on the ball which would lead to interceptions in the NFL. This is something I believe he can improve over time and an extremely intelligent quarterback can make up for it regardless. I'm sure the Giants are betting on a combination of the two and I prefer this issue to a lack of arm strength which is harder to correct but I keep seeing this confusion on here so I thought I'd clear it up from my POV.
Examples:
The outs I have seen DJ throw in college will be pick sixes in the NFL. He will need to improve that now.
Yet another poster who doesn't understand the point of the draft. Was Patrick Mahomes a waste of a pick because he sat for a year when the Chiefs had holes to fill? Was Aaron Rodgers a waste of a pick because he sat for 3 years? Eli sat for 9 games was he a waste of a pick?
You would rather pick a player that can help the Giants immediately in a season where they are unlikely to make the playoffs over a franchise QB? Great idea! It worked so well when we drafted for need and took Ereck Flowers and Eli Apple in the top 10!
We'll just have to see on the arm businesses. He averaged under 7 yards an attempt throughout his college career and his average completion was 11 yards which are pretty pedestrian. Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.
The main & only thing that matters in his development is "can DJ read an NFL defense??" and NO ONE can answer that at this time because he hasn't practiced, played in a pre-season game, learned, and (gulp) started an NFL game. It won't be until the real game that even the coaches fully KNOW he is the man to replace Eli for this franchise going forward 2020 and beyond.
I advocate for DJ to get a lot of work in pre-season, particularly maybe he STARTS game 4 and plays 3 quarters. Let Lauletta play the 4th (and yes, I believe he matures and shows well this year which bodes well for us) and we go into the season with two young guys.
Right now, we are in the "FIRST DATE" period and all is rosy. When the first passes fly in pre-season people will scream if DJ is off. They will praise if he is on. But we know this is all learning curve and don't read TOO MUCH into any of this.
The coaches know. Look at Webb last year. Is he even on a team right now?
Generally with the 6th pick in the draft you don't want a guy that you constantly have to talk about his arm. We will just have to see.
You really don't have to talk about his arm constantly. That's entirely voluntary.
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Jones has a better arm than Haskins
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
Jones has a better arm than Haskins
No he does not. That is absurd to say and objectively untrue.
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw.
Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
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at least, combine velocity. Jones 54 > Haskins 52
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw. Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
I've seen him throw, and I wouldn't say he has an extremely live arm. He has a good arm and can make all the throws, but it's not special by any means. Jones has a good arm too, and Dave Te says he see him as someone improving his arm in the league too. SUre most would say Haskins has a better arm, but its not a big difference.
Also, put Jones on OSU, he would be hyped up as the top qb in the draft by the pundits. Put Haskins in Duke, and he would crumble.
The game and the combine are two different things. Who knows who will be better but jones had to basically two step into his deep throws at the combine. The commentators even said that'll never fly in the NFL. If he had natural zip on his sideline throws, you'd see it. People's sensitivity to criticism is so strange.
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In comment 14432941 Nine-Tails said:
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at least, combine velocity. Jones 54 > Haskins 52
so what?. watch the highlights. Haskins' calling card is an extremely live arm. He has other knocks on his game, such as inconsistent footwork and lack of mobility. The difference between their respective arm talent on tape is obvious. Cosell, for instance, who we all respect, does not think Jones is in Haskins' class as a thrower, just as a thrower.
Here are some highlights for you in case you haven't seen Haskins throw. Haskins highlights - ( New Window )
I've seen him throw, and I wouldn't say he has an extremely live arm. He has a good arm and can make all the throws, but it's not special by any means. Jones has a good arm too, and Dave Te says he see him as someone improving his arm in the league too. SUre most would say Haskins has a better arm, but its not a big difference.
Also, put Jones on OSU, he would be hyped up as the top qb in the draft by the pundits. Put Haskins in Duke, and he would crumble.
Of Haskins, Cosell says, "Looks the part. He's a very talented thrower. He projects as a pocket quarterback. He has prototypical size. He has a strong powerful arm. To be cliched but true he can certainly make any throw... He certainly has tools, he's toolsy... People will look at him as having a high ceiling." And when Cosell describes Jones he never mentions his arm as being anything more than adequate. Jones game depends on efficiency and pre-snap reads. In other words, in terms of arm talent, it is not close between these two, at least for now. If you think they are equal in arm talent you are in for a very big disappointment in the next two years.
Now Cosell does not think Haskins is an automatic star in the NFL. he needs a lot of work, most agree.
By the way, I am stoked about Jones. I am looking forward to seeing what he becomes. But out of the gate, in terms of arm talent alone, he is far behind Haskins, Murray and Lock.
How'd that work out?
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
And you are basing this on? Your shtick of watching YouTube clips and pretending you are some sort of expert QB analyst is hilarious.
How does one determine "natural arm talent"? If Jones is making all the same throws does he have "natural arm talent"? Does Josh Allen have "natural arm talent" if he cant' hit the side of a barn with his passes? If Lock has "natural arm talent" why did he have the same velocity as Jones at the combine? Why did Haskins have 2mph less? It seems to be a pretty arbitrary thing you pulled out of your arse.
None of us have any idea what we are talking about. All these guys are starting out the same. It will have come down to how they play in the NFL. Not college highlights on YouTube.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
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In comment 14432804 PatersonPlank said:
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of Jones's arm. This comes from people watching, media, and other players. So why is it relevant to say "based on a youtube video his arm isn't that good" anymore. At what point do we stop with this narrative?
He doesn't have the natural arm talent that Haskins, Lock and Rosen have. That's what credible analysts have been saying. Very few have been saying he has no arm talent.
And you are basing this on? Your shtick of watching YouTube clips and pretending you are some sort of expert QB analyst is hilarious.
How does one determine "natural arm talent"? If Jones is making all the same throws does he have "natural arm talent"? Does Josh Allen have "natural arm talent" if he cant' hit the side of a barn with his passes? If Lock has "natural arm talent" why did he have the same velocity as Jones at the combine? Why did Haskins have 2mph less? It seems to be a pretty arbitrary thing you pulled out of your arse.
None of us have any idea what we are talking about. All these guys are starting out the same. It will have come down to how they play in the NFL. Not college highlights on YouTube.
I'm not pulling anything out of my ass. I am quoting a reputable analyst who has watched more football tape than just about anyone else you can mention. These guys are not starting out the same. There are clear differences. If you disagree I am happy to hear what you base it on. But it sounds like you want to just rag on me, evidence be damned.. Go ahead. It says a lot more about your ability to hold a nuanced point of view that it says anything about me.
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these same criticisms regarding lack of arm strength and an inability of throw deep to the sidelines have been made of plenty of other QB's. Two that come to mind are Philip Rivers, who was called a rag-arm, and Baker Mayfield.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
Yea ok... Daniel Jones is just like Andrew Luck coming out of college...
With regard to the clips Strahan91 posted above, the first appeared to be thrown very late, the second was late and also a bit low, and the third is a flat-out duck that should never have been thrown at all. They are all bad plays, but I don't see Jones's arm as the problem in any of them.
With regard to the clips Strahan91 posted above, the first appeared to be thrown very late, the second was late and also a bit low, and the third is a flat-out duck that should never have been thrown at all. They are all bad plays, but I don't see Jones's arm as the problem in any of them.
Compared to Haskins, Lock and Rosen he has subpar arm talent. It's not really in dispute.
Maybe you just like to laugh. Who can blame you. He doesn't throw the ball on a rope. Haskins does however.
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In comment 14433049 TC said:
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these same criticisms regarding lack of arm strength and an inability of throw deep to the sidelines have been made of plenty of other QB's. Two that come to mind are Philip Rivers, who was called a rag-arm, and Baker Mayfield.
How'd that work out?
The one question mark on Luck was his arm
Yea ok... Daniel Jones is just like Andrew Luck coming out of college...
Jones isn't a Luck caliber prospect. I'm just saying the only negative about Luck during the draft process was his arm and even more so now with the surgeries.
I have watched a metric crap ton of his games now and i think I know where the confusion comes from.
To my eye, it appears as if his coaches worked on his throwing motion in 2018. To me, the weak armed throws seem to have come in games prior to 2018. He way to often used this sort of sidearm pushing motion to throw the ball. You see it come up the most often when he is under heavy pressure and has to unload instantly. When he uses that weird pushing motion to throw the ball it does generally come out sort of weak.... More importantly, he is way less accurate when using that throwing motion. That is when his passes sail on him.
In 2018 I very rarely saw him using that weird push throwing motion. He was much more consistent about getting his arm up and throwing like a proper NFL QB. He also seemed to sail way less passes in 2018. He was like a revelation to my eyes. The Daniel Jones of say, 2017 is at best a mid second round pick. The Jones of 2018 is worth a late first round pick. Somewhere around the twenties or latter. To my totally untrained, not paid professionally eye.
Why would I have to admit I am wrong?
I am excited about the Jones pick. I am happy about what he seems to do well: Efficient, Coach-able, Athletic, Good Runner, Great Short Game, Intelligent, etc etc
I just know that arm talent is not one of his strengths right now. I believe he can improve on it and I believe his arm strength is not a deal breaker. He has a good chance at success, imo.
Daniel Jones has a good arm. It is not Mahomes 2.0, nor is it a liability. He can make every throw.
Time to pick another reason to knock this pick.
Jones Scouting Report - ( New Window )