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Sam Darnold vs. Daniel Jones

GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:17 pm
Aside from the Jets/Giants "rivalry", the hysteria over taking a RB last year, and this year's recent media backlash ... can someone please explain to me why Darnold is regarded as a much better QB prospect?

The Giants took some heat last year for passing on all these "franchise QBs" and the hate this year for the Jones "reach" had me curious.

1. I like Darnold. This is not anti-Darnold or anti-Jets in nature.
2. I like Jones, and didn't want a QB @ 6 this year.

- Sy '56 graded Darnold as an 81, with boom/bust potential. Sy graded Jones an 80, yes lower than Darnold but by no means a significant gap.
- PFF graded Jones significantly better vs pressure (also higher than Rosen) as prospects
- Darnold/Jones are very similar in terms of athletic ability (40, 3-cone, etc.)


https://twitter.com/gregcosell/status/989491266210729984?lang=en

https://twitter.com/gregcosell/status/1089241490755411968?lang=en

I've linked Darnold and Jones' scouting reports.

i do not see a significant difference in terms of talent/potential between the 2. 1 pick would've been hailed from the rooftops, the other has been ridiculed into oblivion. I'd love to know why.

Again, not anti-Darnold, not anti-Jets, not homer-Giants, not even saying Jones is better ... genuine question. Why is there such a significantly perceived gap between these 2 QBs?
how many fucking Daniel Jones threads are you going to start, dupe?  
Greg from LI : 5/6/2019 5:17 pm : link
.
RE: how many fucking Daniel Jones threads are you going to start, dupe?  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:20 pm : link
In comment 14434502 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


Donít think Iíve actually started any Jones threads, but thank you for the civil and cohesive argument.

Really insightful, and necessary.
Daniel Jones will probably account for >50%  
Oscar : 5/6/2019 5:20 pm : link
Of Giants-related discussion on this forum for the next 2-3 years at least. Have to get used to it.

Sam Darnold has a gigantic head.
...  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:23 pm : link
I was genuinely hoping for an insightful discussion regarding NYís 2 new ďfranchise QBsĒ - I do not understand why Darnold wouldíve been applauded, while Jones has been hated on relentlessly. The gap between the 2 doesnít seem as extreme as itís portrayed

Thank you to anyone who could actually provide some insight.
Daniel Jones will be fine.  
Rocky369 : 5/6/2019 5:23 pm : link
.
Darnold...  
bw in dc : 5/6/2019 5:24 pm : link
is considerably better throwing on the run and has a better arm.

Since Sy was cited as a source, Sy also said he wouldn't take Jones.

RE: how many fucking Daniel Jones threads are you going to start, dupe?  
Josh in the City : 5/6/2019 5:25 pm : link
In comment 14434502 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.

I think itís a fair question and a good thread. Stop with the whining and complaining...youíre not the BBI thread police.
For the sake of the conversation...  
bw in dc : 5/6/2019 5:25 pm : link
like Sy, I would have taken Rosen.
I was at a bar with Darnold  
Everyone Relax : 5/6/2019 5:28 pm : link
on Friday night and briefly contemplated smashing a chair over his right shoulder to really end the Jones/Darnold argument before it even begins.

Unfortunately he seemed like a nice guy and was with 5 very attractive girls.
Sam Darnold has considerable more success  
twostepgiants : 5/6/2019 5:36 pm : link
So far

Darnold had 7200 yds 57 TD and 22 int and a 153 rating in just 2 years starting at USC

Jones had 8200 yds 52 TD and 29 TD and a 122 rating in 3 years starting at Duke.

So much production per game for Darnold.

The scouting on Jones has centered around projecting how he can perform and accounting for the poor talent around him and intangibles like being tough, smart and hard worker

Darnold was considered to be the 1 pick going into the last year at college and performed at a level high to still be considered the likley 1 pick going into the Draft. He additionally was a major high level HS prospect going to a top QB school in USC and not a walk on at a lower school like Duke with no QB history.

He played in high profile games and nationally televised games and Rose Bowls.

Sy is the resident BBI scout but he is probably not the norm on most scouting. He probably had Darnold lower than most scouts and Jones maybe higher than most scouts.
It's so hard to make a valid comparison  
DavidinBMNY : 5/6/2019 5:37 pm : link
This is a projection. Darnold played early and often. He can do a lot on the football and makes some great throws. He always makes some HMMM Maning like throws and has a history of being a turn-over machine.

Jones is seriously battle tested, but not in the pro's of course. Playing Clemson , Florida State and NC State is nothing to sneeze at. He has seen a ton of top tier DL talent.

I think Darnold's cieling is higher but Jones floor is higher. Darnold maybe could approach Farve like Status - Jones Matt Ryan. However, I think it's more likely Jones succeeds with the ability to sit on the bench and learn from a 2 time SB MVP, a mature HC/OC and a fairly potent offense with Barkley having no match on the Jets.

All of this is speculation.
I really liked Rosen  
Johnny5 : 5/6/2019 5:40 pm : link
I didn't really like Darnold. I actually like Jones, but can see the risk (as with any QB).

And your question is a good one. If you look at Sy's ratings we picked 4 guys with an 80 or higher grade. And he didn't have Josh Allen rated very high, only like an 81.
Darnold  
ANGPASS : 5/6/2019 5:45 pm : link
has ugly hair
RE: For the sake of the conversation...  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14434515 bw in dc said:
Quote:
like Sy, I would have taken Rosen.


Yes, Rosen for 37th overall wouldíve been ideal ...
RE: Sam Darnold has considerable more success  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:50 pm : link
In comment 14434528 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
So far

Darnold had 7200 yds 57 TD and 22 int and a 153 rating in just 2 years starting at USC

Jones had 8200 yds 52 TD and 29 TD and a 122 rating in 3 years starting at Duke.

So much production per game for Darnold.

The scouting on Jones has centered around projecting how he can perform and accounting for the poor talent around him and intangibles like being tough, smart and hard worker

Darnold was considered to be the 1 pick going into the last year at college and performed at a level high to still be considered the likley 1 pick going into the Draft. He additionally was a major high level HS prospect going to a top QB school in USC and not a walk on at a lower school like Duke with no QB history.

He played in high profile games and nationally televised games and Rose Bowls.

Sy is the resident BBI scout but he is probably not the norm on most scouting. He probably had Darnold lower than most scouts and Jones maybe higher than most scouts.


I throw out college QB stats, especially given the dumpster fire Jones had to play with ... but that is a great point about ďprofileĒ and Darnold essentially being in the limelight for a lot longer.

Darnoldís been in the headlines since HS, while Jones hasnít really been a national story up until a month ago. The USC Football v Duke Football reputations sure do offer different ďprofilesĒ as well.

Thank you, good point.
I've been thinking about this for a few months and it's really close  
Eric on Li : 5/6/2019 5:50 pm : link
the biggest differences I can come up with are that Darnold seems like he has a higher overall floor by virtue of what seems to be a more prototypical arm, but also possibly a lower ceiling because of his turnover problems and general issues with inconsistency.

It may be a big if, but if Jones arm strength is not an issue and he can make all the throws, I think he seems to have better overall accuracy and consistency - which raises his ceiling. Darnold also seems to be a better improviser, but Jones a better athlete.

I think Darnold's best case is Big Ben and Dan Jones' is a more mobile Matt Ryan. I'd gladly take either but would prefer whichever guy also allowed us to get Barkley.
Daniel Jones looks like Woody from Toy Story  
CromartiesKid21 : 5/6/2019 5:51 pm : link
and Sam Darnold looks like the evil kid from the Incredibles
Where are you getting the PFF data from?  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 5:53 pm : link
I have both their 2018 and 2019 draft guides and while neither fared well under pressure, Darnold completed a higher percentage of them for more yards according to what I'm looking at. Not sure if I can post the screenshots here or it'll cause a copyright issue but if I can I will.

I'm no Darnold fan and they actually were very similar by PFF's standards in their respective junior years. People point to Darnold's 2016 season but that's when he had JuJu Smith-Schuster which was discounted at the time. Now we know he's one of the top wideouts in the NFL.
RE: It's so hard to make a valid comparison  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14434529 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
This is a projection. Darnold played early and often. He can do a lot on the football and makes some great throws. He always makes some HMMM Maning like throws and has a history of being a turn-over machine.

Jones is seriously battle tested, but not in the pro's of course. Playing Clemson , Florida State and NC State is nothing to sneeze at. He has seen a ton of top tier DL talent.

I think Darnold's cieling is higher but Jones floor is higher. Darnold maybe could approach Farve like Status - Jones Matt Ryan. However, I think it's more likely Jones succeeds with the ability to sit on the bench and learn from a 2 time SB MVP, a mature HC/OC and a fairly potent offense with Barkley having no match on the Jets.

All of this is speculation.


Thank you.
Good comps, Darnold seems like more of a ďswing for the fencesĒ type pick while Jones could be the safer/higher floor. Coincides with Syís boom/bust commentary.

Hey if Jones turns out to be a more mobile Matt Ryan Iíll be happy. Saquonís not a bad consolation prize either.
RE: Where are you getting the PFF data from?  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 5:59 pm : link
In comment 14434552 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
I have both their 2018 and 2019 draft guides and while neither fared well under pressure, Darnold completed a higher percentage of them for more yards according to what I'm looking at. Not sure if I can post the screenshots here or it'll cause a copyright issue but if I can I will.

I'm no Darnold fan and they actually were very similar by PFF's standards in their respective junior years. People point to Darnold's 2016 season but that's when he had JuJu Smith-Schuster which was discounted at the time. Now we know he's one of the top wideouts in the NFL.


https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-2019-nfl-draft-profile-qb-daniel-jones-duke

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-a-look-back-at-the-2018-quarterback-class

I compared Jones grade vs pressure to that of all 2017 QBs in 2nd link. Unless Iím misreading, Jones was graded higher than Darnold/Allen/Rosen vs pressure as prospects.
RE: RE: Where are you getting the PFF data from?  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14434561 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434552 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


I have both their 2018 and 2019 draft guides and while neither fared well under pressure, Darnold completed a higher percentage of them for more yards according to what I'm looking at. Not sure if I can post the screenshots here or it'll cause a copyright issue but if I can I will.

I'm no Darnold fan and they actually were very similar by PFF's standards in their respective junior years. People point to Darnold's 2016 season but that's when he had JuJu Smith-Schuster which was discounted at the time. Now we know he's one of the top wideouts in the NFL.



https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-2019-nfl-draft-profile-qb-daniel-jones-duke

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-a-look-back-at-the-2018-quarterback-class

I compared Jones grade vs pressure to that of all 2017 QBs in 2nd link. Unless Iím misreading, Jones was graded higher than Darnold/Allen/Rosen vs pressure as prospects.


* 2018 QBs. First link is Jones (first chart), 2nd link is 2018 QB class (vs pressure)
RE: RE: Where are you getting the PFF data from?  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14434561 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434552 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


I have both their 2018 and 2019 draft guides and while neither fared well under pressure, Darnold completed a higher percentage of them for more yards according to what I'm looking at. Not sure if I can post the screenshots here or it'll cause a copyright issue but if I can I will.

I'm no Darnold fan and they actually were very similar by PFF's standards in their respective junior years. People point to Darnold's 2016 season but that's when he had JuJu Smith-Schuster which was discounted at the time. Now we know he's one of the top wideouts in the NFL.



https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-2019-nfl-draft-profile-qb-daniel-jones-duke

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-a-look-back-at-the-2018-quarterback-class

I compared Jones grade vs pressure to that of all 2017 QBs in 2nd link. Unless Iím misreading, Jones was graded higher than Darnold/Allen/Rosen vs pressure as prospects.

Ah, the second link is from this past NFL season which is the discrepancy.
RE: RE: how many fucking Daniel Jones threads are you going to start, dupe?  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/6/2019 6:02 pm : link
In comment 14434514 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
In comment 14434502 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


.


I think itís a fair question and a good thread. Stop with the whining and complaining...youíre not the BBI thread police.

Are you seriously going to tell anyone to stop whining? All you do is whine.
i disagree on Darnold's ceiling being higher  
Eric on Li : 5/6/2019 6:03 pm : link
he played with good players at USC and he disappointed. He had some great games, including some big bowl games against good teams, but he never put together a consistent season. I don't think that's the type of thing that just changes. That's why I see Big Ben - in good year's that's a pro bowler who can win you a SB. In a bad year that's a 4 TD game followed by 4 INTs the next week.

Jones ceiling comes from the fact that his team was so terrible. If he'd have played at Stanford, he'd probably have been considered a poor man's Andrew Luck. The lower floor is that his arm issues and inability to improvise may not play in the NFL. I'm inclined against thinking that will be the case, but it's certainly possible. Any QB can be an out and out bust, so this may be cheating since Darnold has already been able to play at the NFL level semi-competently, but it's the current reality.
It's an interesting question...  
Dan in the Springs : 5/6/2019 6:04 pm : link
one that will be debated for a long time given they are both designated as the future for two rivalry franchises.

I don't know enough to comment or compare the two as prospects. I'll say only that everyone has their own opinions and they love them. That's why a thread like this is doomed even though it's a great question. Too many can't help but discuss their preference for the Giants this year instead of working their way through the question.
The OP just wants to fight  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 6:14 pm : link
You can easily pull SY's assessment and he has Darnold rated as 81 and Jones rated as 80. He admits this and all he has to do is read it.

And I can't beleive he is using PFF. Ask the OP what he thinks of PFF;s rating on Jones as a 3rd rd pick?

Below you cna see PFF has Jone srated as a 3rd rd prospect.

Below you cna see PFF rated as OVERALL the number 2 prospect.

The OP is a "quack." I'm pretty sure it was him that stated there was little to no difference in college between him and Andrew Luck.

If he's not a "quack" just ask yourself why does he need to ask this question when he can easily see SY has him rated him rated higher.

ANd the fact he cherry-picked PFF a specific feature -- yet why didn't he look for the COMPLETE evaluation of the 2? He didn;t because it doesn;t fit his argument. He only wants to bring up specific points that point to his guy while ignoring the same sources that show negative against his guy.

HE didn't do it because he doesn't want to hear alternate views. He just wants to argue. He's upset because everyone doesnt love Jones as much as he does.

See the links below on PFF rating of Jones overall and where they felt Darnold should've been in in 2018.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-duke-qb-daniel-jones-is-a-third-round-prospect-likely-to-get-overdrafted

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-pff-big-board-top-250-players-for-the-2018-nfl-draft


Different types of player  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 6:23 pm : link
Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.
RE: Different types of player  
Big Blue '56 : 5/6/2019 6:27 pm : link
In comment 14434584 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.


Give him a dome to play in and he might
It is a valid discussion  
Scuzzlebutt : 5/6/2019 6:28 pm : link
And PFF, SY, and every other opinion could be right or wrong. I see a lot of similarities actually and I have to wonder what kind of hype Jones might have generated if he had played at a football powerhouse like Darnold.
I don't see how any comparison of Darnold and Jones...  
manh george : 5/6/2019 6:38 pm : link
can ignore the fact that we got the best player in the draft last year, instead of picking a qb. So the comparison is Darnold plus, say, Allen, vs. Barkley and Jones.
And with Greg Cosell  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 6:44 pm : link
The OP is posting a lot of hot air. If he is ot use Cosell -- he should use "all of Cosell."

WHen you argue with this guy and throw COsell in his face that Jones was the 4th best QB according to Cosell he disregards it. But today vs Darnold suddenly Cosell becomes relevant.

Look at youtube what COsell had to say about Darnold--

he says his PREFERENCE is "Pocket Passers."
SO Greg isnt going to love Darnold.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R7FUzc3rlE

**But if you were to use Cosell-- the OP "today" uses Cosell -- but listen to the below -- he has Jones rated as the 4th qb in the class.

The OP wants to use selectiveness to build up his boy. Listen to where he puts Jones in the 2091 draft. He is 4th.

The OP doesn;t want to tell you that Cosell has Jones ranked as the 4th rated QB this year.

SO if he is going to use Cosell he should also use Jones of this year. But he doesn;t. He just wants to push his man - push his agenda.


https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/ny-sports-nfl-draft-quarterbacks-20190330-7g64islf5nb4njy27f45sltlcy-story.html

It juts makes you wonder if the OP is somehow related to DJones or somehow connected indirectly to someone who made a decision to take Jones. Otherwise please explain the inconsistencies why he wants to use Cosell sometimes and not others.

WHy he compares Jones to Luck.

Why he uses just a specific comment made by PFF and not look at the whole picture.


Darnold  
Marty866b : 5/6/2019 6:46 pm : link
The USC teams that Darnold played on were not very good USC teams. Darnold was THE reason why they were successful. USC football has been down for awhile and Sam,for a short time, made USC football relevant again.
RE: It is a valid discussion  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 6:47 pm : link
In comment 14434588 Scuzzlebutt said:
Quote:
And PFF, SY, and every other opinion could be right or wrong. I see a lot of similarities actually and I have to wonder what kind of hype Jones might have generated if he had played at a football powerhouse like Darnold.


The point is he has the answers. OFC we don't know until they play. But he can read what SY has to say. WHat PFF has to say. You can read hwy they tell you plus and minus of Jones vs Darnold.
RE: RE: Different types of player  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 6:52 pm : link
In comment 14434586 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14434584 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.

Give him a dome to play in and he might


I always thought that was an unfair critique of Brees. His career QB rating on the road is still 92.3 (Brady - 98.8, Peyton - 93.3). I think the perception of Brees on the road exists because at home he has been unbelievable (103.1, Brady - 98.8, Peyton - 99.8).

But my reason for setting that as the goal for Jones is the style of play. Great footwork, accurate short and intermediate. We want him throwing on 1st and 2nd down in the flats to the backs and over the middle to TEs...that's what's been bread and butter for Brees and Brady. It's always been a weaker part of Eli's game, and why he's never really made sense in a WCO.

Another word on Darnold/Jones - Darnold started 13 games his rookie year on a very poor offensive team...poorer than what the Giants have in 2019. If Darnold can start 13 games as a rookie there is no reason Jones (a technically more refined player surrounded by better players) can't do the same.
RE: Darnold  
eric2425ny : 5/6/2019 6:53 pm : link
In comment 14434544 ANGPASS said:
Quote:
has ugly hair


And he looks like one of the Campbellís soup kids:





Cosell makes the comment  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 6:53 pm : link
That is an abstract world he wouldn't call Daniel Jones a top 15 prospect.

AT the 16.20 mark of the link.

https://www.giants.com/news/murray-vs-haskins-greg-cosell-breaks-down-qb-s
RE: Darnold  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 6:53 pm : link
In comment 14434597 Marty866b said:
Quote:
The USC teams that Darnold played on were not very good USC teams. Darnold was THE reason why they were successful. USC football has been down for awhile and Sam,for a short time, made USC football relevant again.

They were still far more talented than Jones' teams. Jones was the first Duke player drafted to the NFL since 2015. 17 USC guys have been drafted during that time.
RE: RE: RE: Different types of player  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14434603 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14434586 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14434584 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.

Give him a dome to play in and he might



I always thought that was an unfair critique of Brees. His career QB rating on the road is still 92.3 (Brady - 98.8, Peyton - 93.3). I think the perception of Brees on the road exists because at home he has been unbelievable (103.1, Brady - 98.8, Peyton - 99.8).

But my reason for setting that as the goal for Jones is the style of play. Great footwork, accurate short and intermediate. We want him throwing on 1st and 2nd down in the flats to the backs and over the middle to TEs...that's what's been bread and butter for Brees and Brady. It's always been a weaker part of Eli's game, and why he's never really made sense in a WCO.

Another word on Darnold/Jones - Darnold started 13 games his rookie year on a very poor offensive team...poorer than what the Giants have in 2019. If Darnold can start 13 games as a rookie there is no reason Jones (a technically more refined player surrounded by better players) can't do the same.


In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?
RE: Darnold  
Eric on Li : 5/6/2019 6:55 pm : link
In comment 14434597 Marty866b said:
Quote:
The USC teams that Darnold played on were not very good USC teams. Darnold was THE reason why they were successful. USC football has been down for awhile and Sam,for a short time, made USC football relevant again.


Down USC teams are still >>>>>>>>> any Duke teams. Jones never played with anyone close to Ronald Jones or Juju and his defenses certainly didn't boast multiple high draft picks. Pac 12 has been weaker than the ACC the past few years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Different types of player  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 6:59 pm : link
In comment 14434607 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14434603 Go Terps said:
In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?

Ironically Dave Te's scouting report on Brees sounds a bit like his Jones scouting report. This line in particular addresses your question:
"Lacks accuracy and touch on his long throws... Seems more comfortable in the short/intermediate passing attack..."
Dave Te's Brees scouting report - ( New Window )
I was kind of wondering the same thing  
Giantsfanincuse : 5/6/2019 7:00 pm : link
What made Sam darnold the second coming? He was a turnover machine I thought- or at least that was the knock on him. They seem like similar players to me... and if we got a similar player to the number two qb last year and came away with Barkley, that sounds like a good day.
giantstock  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 7:00 pm : link
Quote:
In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?


Could they? Brady wasn't known for it until he got Moss in 2007. Brady was in his 8th year in the league and 30 years old. I don't recall Brees being known as a great deep ball thrower at any point in his career...it's certainly not been how he's made his living in New Orleans.
I think it is pretty cool most the East teams  
George from PA : 5/6/2019 7:01 pm : link
Have young new QBs
it's a comparison we'll see for a while  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 5/6/2019 7:01 pm : link
along with Barkley and Josh Allen being mentioned.

IMO the biggest difference between Darnold and Jones is that Darnold was known for a making a lot of tough "big boy throws" in college that projected to a strong NFL arm. Darnold is actually kind of like young Eli, in that his weakness was the turnovers but his strengths were the tough throws.

But time will tell if Darnold will improve his turnover-prone nature or if he will turn into another Jameis Winston. Jameis does not seem like the brightest guy so maybe Darnold has a better chance to improve, but they were similar prospects imo. FWIW I wouldn't be surprised if Jameis turned it around.

Jones seems to be more of a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of prospect with questions on his arm talent that we didn't see with Darnold. The glass half full look for the Giants is that his shitty teammates at Duke made it hard for him to show his arm talent, but it's clearly a question mark with him.
Strahan91  
Marty866b : 5/6/2019 7:02 pm : link
Darnold was 20-4 as the starting quarterback.Not fair to compare to Duke but,IMO, Darnold is just more physically talented then Jones. Just wanted to point out that USC has not been the USC of yesteryear lately and the ONLY reason for recent success is because of Sam Darnold.
The Jets gave up a boat load for that pick  
gogiants : 5/6/2019 7:05 pm : link
It is interesting to compare since the Jets and Giants had similar pick slots in the two drafts
Giants 2018 Pick 2
Giants 2019 Pick 6
Jets 2018 Pick 6
Jets 2019 Pick 3

For moving up to get Darnold they gave up their 2018 #6, two second round picks (37 and 49) and in 2019 their #34.

So comparing the drafts the Jets got
Sam Darnold
Quinnen Williams

The Giants got
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Will Hernandez
Lorenzo Carter
Deandre Baker

Jones doesn't have to be a better quarterback than Darnold. The question is who came out with the better team. I'll take the Giants selections any day.
RE: Strahan91  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 7:06 pm : link
In comment 14434617 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Darnold was 20-4 as the starting quarterback.Not fair to compare to Duke but,IMO, Darnold is just more physically talented then Jones. Just wanted to point out that USC has not been the USC of yesteryear lately and the ONLY reason for recent success is because of Sam Darnold.

Whether or not he's more physically talented doesn't have to do with your original comment though. I mean Ronald Jones was one of the best backs in college football before he came out. JuJu was electric. The Jets just took their tackle in the 3rd round. These are high quality players he played with. To say emphatically he's the only reason for their recent success is purely opinion and one that most would disagree with imo.
Starts as a rookie  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 7:11 pm : link
Darnold - 13
Rosen - 13
Allen - 11
Jackson - 7

If we go the whole season without Jones starting a game we'd better be 13-3.
RE: I don't see how any comparison of Darnold and Jones...  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 7:12 pm : link
In comment 14434595 manh george said:
Quote:
can ignore the fact that we got the best player in the draft last year, instead of picking a qb. So the comparison is Darnold plus, say, Allen, vs. Barkley and Jones.


WHat does "the best player" mean v simportance of QB position?

FOr example suppose GMEN with SB and DJ never win more than 1 rd in the playoffs in a given year while Darnold wins 2 SB's and is two-time SB MVP like ELi? Suppose his stats are not near as awesome as SB's were. This owuld mean then that DJ didn;t come through in the big moment if SB is so awesome.

SO who would you say then would have been the better pick? If oyu go with Barkley -- then please explain why anyone would say ELi is better than Rivers? Maybe oyu don;t think so -- but others would I think.

**OFC there might be "circumstances." Just saying all things equal - you cant have ti both ways look at stats in one breath but ignore in another.
RE: giantstock  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 7:17 pm : link
In comment 14434611 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?



Could they? Brady wasn't known for it until he got Moss in 2007. Brady was in his 8th year in the league and 30 years old. I don't recall Brees being known as a great deep ball thrower at any point in his career...it's certainly not been how he's made his living in New Orleans.


I think they were both very good passers throwing deep. Any stats out there?
RE: Starts as a rookie  
Eric on Li : 5/6/2019 7:17 pm : link
In comment 14434636 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Darnold - 13
Rosen - 13
Allen - 11
Jackson - 7

If we go the whole season without Jones starting a game we'd better be 13-3.


The line for me is a double digit win team contending for the division. I don't care what the circumstances are, you enter every season hoping to win your division and get to the postseason. I'll worry about the negative consequences of being a stagnant double digit win team year after year when we get there.
RE: RE: giantstock  
Nine-Tails : 5/6/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14434646 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14434611 Go Terps said:


Quote:




Quote:


In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?



Could they? Brady wasn't known for it until he got Moss in 2007. Brady was in his 8th year in the league and 30 years old. I don't recall Brees being known as a great deep ball thrower at any point in his career...it's certainly not been how he's made his living in New Orleans.



I think they were both very good passers throwing deep. Any stats out there?


Brees has a made a career of great accuracy in the 15-25 yard range
Comparison is easy  
Jimmy Googs : 5/6/2019 7:22 pm : link
Darnold was the #3 pick that should have gone #2, and Jones was the #6 pick that should have gone #17.

That and the 5 attractive girls Darnold was hanging out with Friday night as noted by the poster above...
RE: giantstock  
bw in dc : 5/6/2019 7:22 pm : link
In comment 14434611 Go Terps said:
Quote:


Quote:


In both Brady and Bree's younger days -- couldn't they throw deep very well?



Could they? Brady wasn't known for it until he got Moss in 2007. Brady was in his 8th year in the league and 30 years old. I don't recall Brees being known as a great deep ball thrower at any point in his career...it's certainly not been how he's made his living in New Orleans.


I suggest you watch some pre-Moss highlights of some outstanding long ball throws Brady would make to Branch, Givens, Patten, and Brown. He just had more opportunities with Moss because Belichick/McDaniels/O'Brien weren't going to not take advantage of that speed.

RE: Strahan91  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 7:25 pm : link
In comment 14434617 Marty866b said:
Quote:
Darnold was 20-4 as the starting quarterback.Not fair to compare to Duke but,IMO, Darnold is just more physically talented then Jones. Just wanted to point out that USC has not been the USC of yesteryear lately and the ONLY reason for recent success is because of Sam Darnold.

That's not true. Darnold didn't single handedly carry USC the way Jones carried Duke. I am not claiming that Jones is the better prospect I will wait and see how that plays out. It is a fact that Jones did not play with single player that was drafted.

Look at the players Darnold has played with that were drafted: OT Chuma Edoga(3rd), CB Iman Marshall (4th), S Marvel Tell III (5th), LB Carson Smith (5th), RB Ronald Jones (2nd), LB Uchenna Owusu (2nd), DE Rasheem Greene (3rd), CB Adoree Jackson (1st), Ju-Ju Schuster-Smith (2nd), OT Zach Banner (4th), DB Leon McQuay (6th), DT Stevie Tu'ikolovatu (7th), S Sua Cravens (2nd), C Max Tuerk (3rd), Cody Kessler (3rd), DB Kevon Seymour (6th).

the arm strength stuff is interesting to me  
japanhead : 5/6/2019 7:27 pm : link
we all know shurmur doesn't overly value arm strength.. now, shurmur is known as a quarterback whisperer, but he's no andy reid. the first QB this regime has taken was lauletta, and he has looked absolutely awful in limited action.
if we're being honest  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 7:31 pm : link
Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.
RE: the arm strength stuff is interesting to me  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 7:32 pm : link
In comment 14434657 japanhead said:
Quote:
we all know shurmur doesn't overly value arm strength.. now, shurmur is known as a quarterback whisperer, but he's no andy reid. the first QB this regime has taken was lauletta, and he has looked absolutely awful in limited action.

He was a rookie 4th round pick from Richmond playing in 1 game. Look at the performances of Nick Foles, Sam Bradford, and Case Keenum under Shurmur. All three had or were having the best seasons of their careers.
Yeah how dare you  
Route 9 : 5/6/2019 7:33 pm : link
...
RE: if we're being honest  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.

Darnold was my favorite QB last year but he was not the consensus #1 like you're trying to make him out to be. Teams were torn on which QB they liked. He also was the 2nd QB taken behind former walk on Baker Mayfield. Coming into their final collegiate season Baker Mayfield was not viewed as a likely 1st round pick.
RE: Sam Darnold has considerable more success  
montanagiant : 5/6/2019 7:35 pm : link
In comment 14434528 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
So far

Darnold had 7200 yds 57 TD and 22 int and a 153 rating in just 2 years starting at USC

Jones had 8200 yds 52 TD and 29 TD and a 122 rating in 3 years starting at Duke.

So much production per game for Darnold.

The scouting on Jones has centered around projecting how he can perform and accounting for the poor talent around him and intangibles like being tough, smart and hard worker

Darnold was considered to be the 1 pick going into the last year at college and performed at a level high to still be considered the likley 1 pick going into the Draft. He additionally was a major high level HS prospect going to a top QB school in USC and not a walk on at a lower school like Duke with no QB history.

He played in high profile games and nationally televised games and Rose Bowls.

Sy is the resident BBI scout but he is probably not the norm on most scouting. He probably had Darnold lower than most scouts and Jones maybe higher than most scouts.

That actually is more of an argument in favor of Jones given the fact he had zero talent around him and played in a tougher conference
RE: RE: if we're being honest  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 7:36 pm : link
In comment 14434663 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.


Darnold was my favorite QB last year but he was not the consensus #1 like you're trying to make him out to be. Teams were torn on which QB they liked. He also was the 2nd QB taken behind former walk on Baker Mayfield. Coming into their final collegiate season Baker Mayfield was not viewed as a likely 1st round pick.


Many felt every big QB prospect from last year, or at least the big 3, were better than every prospect from this season. And most had DJ 3rd or 4th this season. By the transitive property that would make Jones no higher than the 6th or 7th best QB prospect in the last two years. Can we agree with that?
RE: The Jets gave up a boat load for that pick  
montanagiant : 5/6/2019 7:37 pm : link
In comment 14434624 gogiants said:
Quote:
It is interesting to compare since the Jets and Giants had similar pick slots in the two drafts
Giants 2018 Pick 2
Giants 2019 Pick 6
Jets 2018 Pick 6
Jets 2019 Pick 3

For moving up to get Darnold they gave up their 2018 #6, two second round picks (37 and 49) and in 2019 their #34.

So comparing the drafts the Jets got
Sam Darnold
Quinnen Williams

The Giants got
Saquon Barkley
Daniel Jones
Will Hernandez
Lorenzo Carter
Deandre Baker

Jones doesn't have to be a better quarterback than Darnold. The question is who came out with the better team. I'll take the Giants selections any day.

Excellent post..
Also, are we actually criticizing Jones's ability to throw deep?  
Go Terps : 5/6/2019 7:37 pm : link
The one he threw against Army was 55 yards in the air on a dime. That's probably about the same distance in the air as the longest throw Eli has completed as a Giant in 15 years. There just aren't very many plays where the ball is going to have to go that far in the air. Rarely does a ball get thrown farther than that in a game in a non-Hail Mary situation.

Arm strength isn't as important as many think it is. And if it were, it isn't a problem in Jones's case.

RE: RE: RE: if we're being honest  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 7:43 pm : link
In comment 14434668 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14434663 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.


Darnold was my favorite QB last year but he was not the consensus #1 like you're trying to make him out to be. Teams were torn on which QB they liked. He also was the 2nd QB taken behind former walk on Baker Mayfield. Coming into their final collegiate season Baker Mayfield was not viewed as a likely 1st round pick.



Many felt every big QB prospect from last year, or at least the big 3, were better than every prospect from this season. And most had DJ 3rd or 4th this season. By the transitive property that would make Jones no higher than the 6th or 7th best QB prospect in the last two years. Can we agree with that?

So you're basing this on the media "experts" or real experts? Are you seriously trying to say that Daniel Jones is rated lower than Lamar Jackson and Mason Rudolph?? I would put Jones behind Darnold, Mayfield, and Murray but tied with Josh Allen.

I am smart enough to admit that I know way less than the actual experts. I do not pretend to lower a players grade because media trolls at ESPN, WFAN, etc are trying to create a false narrative that Daniel Jones is not a 1st round talent.
RE: Different types of player  
Brown_Hornet : 5/6/2019 7:47 pm : link
In comment 14434584 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.

I agree with Terps. Jones will be as good as Drew Brees.

Darnold looks like Squee's SCOTUS pal....pass~
Honestly  
sxdxca : 5/6/2019 7:58 pm : link
Sam Darnold is the superior QB, you can watch him how fast he moves in the pocket, and throwing ability. Also his ability to create something out of nothing, and extend plays.

This doesn't mean Jones will be bad, he can become a good QB as well, he just has limited physical abilities compared to Darnold.

Where Jones will shine, is his intelligence, and being able to read defenses, and exploit matchups. It will be a chess game, just have to wait and see who emerges as the next star.
RE: RE: The Jets gave up a boat load for that pick  
gogiants : 5/6/2019 8:02 pm : link
Quote:

Excellent post..

Thanks
RE: RE: RE: RE: if we're being honest  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 8:05 pm : link
In comment 14434677 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434668 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14434663 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.


Darnold was my favorite QB last year but he was not the consensus #1 like you're trying to make him out to be. Teams were torn on which QB they liked. He also was the 2nd QB taken behind former walk on Baker Mayfield. Coming into their final collegiate season Baker Mayfield was not viewed as a likely 1st round pick.



Many felt every big QB prospect from last year, or at least the big 3, were better than every prospect from this season. And most had DJ 3rd or 4th this season. By the transitive property that would make Jones no higher than the 6th or 7th best QB prospect in the last two years. Can we agree with that?


So you're basing this on the media "experts" or real experts? Are you seriously trying to say that Daniel Jones is rated lower than Lamar Jackson and Mason Rudolph?? I would put Jones behind Darnold, Mayfield, and Murray but tied with Josh Allen.

I am smart enough to admit that I know way less than the actual experts. I do not pretend to lower a players grade because media trolls at ESPN, WFAN, etc are trying to create a false narrative that Daniel Jones is not a 1st round talent.

No I am talking real experts who watch film, like Cosell. For instance, there is no chance that Cosell likes Jones better than Rosen as a prospect. And Cosell has Jones behind Murray, Haskins and Lock this season. I am being kind in my assessment. The Giants reached. Maybe they are right. That's the risk they took. But just because they reached doesn't mean Jones is suddenly a better prospect.

And mind you, I am happy about the pick. I am just objective and realistic.
Was not a fan of Darnold  
ghost718 : 5/6/2019 8:23 pm : link
So Jones,pretty easily
Guys,..... and the Godfather thinks Jones is the next Peyton  
George from PA : 5/6/2019 8:25 pm : link
You can repeat the media dribble....

Lets see how it plays out.

We will all have front row seats

"Jones will be as good as Brees"...  
bw in dc : 5/6/2019 8:29 pm : link
Does that assume we eventually get a prolific head coach and offensive genius like Sean Payton?

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: if we're being honest  
BigBlueShock : 5/6/2019 8:34 pm : link
In comment 14434707 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14434677 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434668 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14434663 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.


Darnold was my favorite QB last year but he was not the consensus #1 like you're trying to make him out to be. Teams were torn on which QB they liked. He also was the 2nd QB taken behind former walk on Baker Mayfield. Coming into their final collegiate season Baker Mayfield was not viewed as a likely 1st round pick.



Many felt every big QB prospect from last year, or at least the big 3, were better than every prospect from this season. And most had DJ 3rd or 4th this season. By the transitive property that would make Jones no higher than the 6th or 7th best QB prospect in the last two years. Can we agree with that?


So you're basing this on the media "experts" or real experts? Are you seriously trying to say that Daniel Jones is rated lower than Lamar Jackson and Mason Rudolph?? I would put Jones behind Darnold, Mayfield, and Murray but tied with Josh Allen.

I am smart enough to admit that I know way less than the actual experts. I do not pretend to lower a players grade because media trolls at ESPN, WFAN, etc are trying to create a false narrative that Daniel Jones is not a 1st round talent.


No I am talking real experts who watch film, like Cosell. For instance, there is no chance that Cosell likes Jones better than Rosen as a prospect. And Cosell has Jones behind Murray, Haskins and Lock this season. I am being kind in my assessment. The Giants reached. Maybe they are right. That's the risk they took. But just because they reached doesn't mean Jones is suddenly a better prospect.

And mind you, I am happy about the pick. I am just objective and realistic.

Why the hell do you and giantstock continue to bring up Cosell? Oh, thatís right. Itís because he agrees with your opinion. You two bring him up on every single thread. Is he the only opinion that matters? If Cosell doesnít like Jones, he must be a reach!

There are plenty of other ďexpertsĒ that think very highly of Jones. Yet you never bring them up. Itís always Cosell. If he liked Jones Iím sure youíd find another expert that didnít like him to keep bringing up. Hereís a clue...if he honestly thinks Lock is a better prospect than Jones, you may want to find another expert to continue to admire...
RE: RE: Strahan91  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 8:40 pm : link
In comment 14434653 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434617 Marty866b said:


Quote:


Darnold was 20-4 as the starting quarterback.Not fair to compare to Duke but,IMO, Darnold is just more physically talented then Jones. Just wanted to point out that USC has not been the USC of yesteryear lately and the ONLY reason for recent success is because of Sam Darnold.


That's not true. Darnold didn't single handedly carry USC the way Jones carried Duke. I am not claiming that Jones is the better prospect I will wait and see how that plays out. It is a fact that Jones did not play with single player that was drafted.

Look at the players Darnold has played with that were drafted: OT Chuma Edoga(3rd), CB Iman Marshall (4th), S Marvel Tell III (5th), LB Carson Smith (5th), RB Ronald Jones (2nd), LB Uchenna Owusu (2nd), DE Rasheem Greene (3rd), CB Adoree Jackson (1st), Ju-Ju Schuster-Smith (2nd), OT Zach Banner (4th), DB Leon McQuay (6th), DT Stevie Tu'ikolovatu (7th), S Sua Cravens (2nd), C Max Tuerk (3rd), Cody Kessler (3rd), DB Kevon Seymour (6th).


WTF Jay. A bunch of defensive players and the QB that preceded him (for some odd reason). Relevant: Chuma Edoga, Ronald Jones, Zach Banner, Max Tuerk (a guy who didn't actually play with Darnold and who is probably already washed out of the league), and Kessler who makes no sense because he plays the same position and who just happened to be in his last year the same year that Darnold was basically on the team but didn't take a snap.

So it's Edoga, Jones, Smith-Schuster (played one season with Darnold) and Banner. We're not talking an all-star team, here.

So let's dispense with all the bullshit. Everyone is already giving Jones all the credit for not playing with quality players. Darnold DID NOT have a great team behind him. Player for player...Darnold has the better arm talent, and is at least as competitive.

Why do I say Darnold has the better arm talent? All the off-schedule, accurate throws. The zip he can put on the ball, deep ball accuracy. Darnold has similar escapability in the pocket and is able to make accurate throws far downfield that I don't see Jones make. That's it.

Jones is the better athlete. Darnold has incredible arm-talent, superior to Jones AT THIS POINT.
RE: The OP just wants to fight  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14434575 giantstock said:
Quote:
You can easily pull SY's assessment and he has Darnold rated as 81 and Jones rated as 80. He admits this and all he has to do is read it.


And I can't beleive he is using PFF. Ask the OP what he thinks of PFF;s rating on Jones as a 3rd rd pick?

Below you cna see PFF has Jone srated as a 3rd rd prospect.

Below you cna see PFF rated as OVERALL the number 2 prospect.

The OP is a "quack." I'm pretty sure it was him that stated there was little to no difference in college between him and Andrew Luck.

If he's not a "quack" just ask yourself why does he need to ask this question when he can easily see SY has him rated him rated higher.

ANd the fact he cherry-picked PFF a specific feature -- yet why didn't he look for the COMPLETE evaluation of the 2? He didn;t because it doesn;t fit his argument. He only wants to bring up specific points that point to his guy while ignoring the same sources that show negative against his guy.

HE didn't do it because he doesn't want to hear alternate views. He just wants to argue. He's upset because everyone doesnt love Jones as much as he does.

See the links below on PFF rating of Jones overall and where they felt Darnold should've been in in 2018.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-duke-qb-daniel-jones-is-a-third-round-prospect-likely-to-get-overdrafted

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-pff-big-board-top-250-players-for-the-2018-nfl-draft



1. My goal is literally the opposite of starting a "fight", as I've said I also like Darnold and this was in no way anti-Darnold or Anti-Jets. It was an attempt at a civil discussion, which the internet makes nearly impossible with people like you spewing their misguided anger.

2. I brought up 1 metric used by PFF because I thought it was interesting to see him performance vs pressure, since he spent a lot of time in the pocket under duress. Turns out he's pretty good under pressure, a good sign for his NFL outlook.

3. An 81 grade vs an 80 grade is, in fact, quite close - not to mention I fully acknowledged Sy had Darnold rated higher.

The point of the question was to ascertain WHY Darnold is significantly more highly regarded as a prospect when in reality they have similar strengths/weaknesses and our go-to Sy almost graded them identically. An 81 and an 80 does not suggest a significant difference between prospects - HENCE THE QUESTION.

Thank you for bringing absolutely nothing to the conversation. Go to bed.
RE: I've been thinking about this for a few months and it's really close  
DavidinBMNY : 5/6/2019 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14434549 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
the biggest differences I can come up with are that Darnold seems like he has a higher overall floor by virtue of what seems to be a more prototypical arm, but also possibly a lower ceiling because of his turnover problems and general issues with inconsistency.

It may be a big if, but if Jones arm strength is not an issue and he can make all the throws, I think he seems to have better overall accuracy and consistency - which raises his ceiling. Darnold also seems to be a better improviser, but Jones a better athlete.

I think Darnold's best case is Big Ben and Dan Jones' is a more mobile Matt Ryan. I'd gladly take either but would prefer whichever guy also allowed us to get Barkley.
Funny - I see it the opposite way. Jones does all the little things right. He has an excellent foundation.
RE: Different types of player  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 8:44 pm : link
In comment 14434584 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Darnold seems better at making plays off schedule, but he isn't as technically sound as Jones is throwing the football. I think Jones has a shot to be better in the red zone because of his footwork and release.

If you were plotting a path for what you hope each guy becomes at the end of the rainbow, the Jets are hoping Darnold becomes Ben Roethlisberger. The Giants should be hoping Jones becomes Drew Brees.


Thank you.
Great Careers!!!  
Barkley26 : 5/6/2019 8:44 pm : link
I hope both have great careers. As a Giants fan, you don't have to hate on Darnold for the sake of supporting Jones.
I wouldnít say Darnold is the superior QB as  
BSIMatt : 5/6/2019 8:46 pm : link
These guys are just coming into the league and nobody really knows what they will become. Iíd say Darnold was held in higher regard coming out, I think thatís fair, the question would be by how much...but thatís really dependent on each teams preference/assessment of each player. What I get tired of is posters acting as though heís already established himself as a surefire hit in the NFL. Heís shown flashes, jury is still out imo. I did like Darnold, that was my QB of choice if the Giants opted to not take Barkley. However, I do think there is a tendency to dismiss the concerns with Darnold as well as exaggerate his strengths in some instances. He does seem to have some Romo like qualities as a playmaker, but playing out of structure doesnít hold up well over time, itís always a double edged sword.
allstarjim  
Strahan91 : 5/6/2019 8:48 pm : link
Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.
RE: RE: RE: Where are you getting the PFF data from?  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 8:48 pm : link
In comment 14434564 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14434561 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434552 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


I have both their 2018 and 2019 draft guides and while neither fared well under pressure, Darnold completed a higher percentage of them for more yards according to what I'm looking at. Not sure if I can post the screenshots here or it'll cause a copyright issue but if I can I will.

I'm no Darnold fan and they actually were very similar by PFF's standards in their respective junior years. People point to Darnold's 2016 season but that's when he had JuJu Smith-Schuster which was discounted at the time. Now we know he's one of the top wideouts in the NFL.



https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-2019-nfl-draft-profile-qb-daniel-jones-duke

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-a-look-back-at-the-2018-quarterback-class

I compared Jones grade vs pressure to that of all 2017 QBs in 2nd link. Unless Iím misreading, Jones was graded higher than Darnold/Allen/Rosen vs pressure as prospects.


Ah, the second link is from this past NFL season which is the discrepancy.


Apologies, my bad. I thought the "look back" was from their respective prospect grades
This thread is moronic  
AdamBrag : 5/6/2019 8:53 pm : link
Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.
RE: if we're being honest  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14434660 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
Darnold is the much better prospect. Just about every analyst would agree. I don't know ahy we are debating this it is so obvious.

Does that mean Darnold will wind up a better pro than Jones? No, of course not. Certainly Gettleman and Giants brain trust believe Jones will likely be better.

But can we be objective? Darnold was one of the highest touted QBs coming out and has a good chance to be an impact QB in the NFL. Jones does not have the same hype, he simply doesn't, with many calling the Giants pick a reach. Could he buck the odds? Absolutely. But he is less likely to make an impact than Darnold.


Hype ... highest touted ... yeah, that's the point. Why?

Is he bigger? Faster? Significantly stronger arm? Or just ... media and "analysts" telling you this is how you should think?

Feel free to chime in with original thoughts, they are welcome.
Itís more Jones + Barkley vs  
Sean : 5/6/2019 8:55 pm : link
Darnold + Chubb, Iím hopeful the combination of Barkley with Jones athleticism ends up to be lethal.
So now the debate is Darnold vs. Jones...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 5/6/2019 8:56 pm : link
I thought it was Saquon vs. Darnold.

Awesome. I can't wait to be reading these threads still when my daughter is in college in 15 years.
RE: This thread is moronic  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14434779 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.


Yes thank you. The Giants take a leap of faith on Jones and suddenly he is an elite QB prospect. Maybe Jones will become Tom Brady one day but for now he is an interesting QB project. Nothing more. And remember, Darnold started day one.
RE: I was kind of wondering the same thing  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14434610 Giantsfanincuse said:
Quote:
What made Sam darnold the second coming? He was a turnover machine I thought- or at least that was the knock on him. They seem like similar players to me... and if we got a similar player to the number two qb last year and came away with Barkley, that sounds like a good day.


My thoughts/questions exactly.

I've never said Darnold isn't a better prospect ... i've said, and will continue to say, I do not see the huge gap in terms of talent/potential that would be suggested by the Jones pick outrage while Darnold has been rejoiced since last April.

Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
BSIMatt : 5/6/2019 8:58 pm : link
And your not sure if Jones made Duke better? I didnít really need to read anything else you wrote because those two statements define moronic better than any other statements made in this thread.
RE: This thread is moronic  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 9:00 pm : link
In comment 14434779 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.


Opening a "moronic" thread, taking the tme to post, and then using college stats as support for an argument ... that's, in a word, moronic.

Let me guess, you're 1 of those people who drooled over Haskins 50 TDs too?
RE: Also, are we actually criticizing Jones's ability to throw deep?  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 9:04 pm : link
In comment 14434675 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The one he threw against Army was 55 yards in the air on a dime. That's probably about the same distance in the air as the longest throw Eli has completed as a Giant in 15 years. There just aren't very many plays where the ball is going to have to go that far in the air. Rarely does a ball get thrown farther than that in a game in a non-Hail Mary situation.

Arm strength isn't as important as many think it is. And if it were, it isn't a problem in Jones's case.


Don't waste your time ... it's everyone's favorite narrative this week.
I want both Sam Darnold and Daniel Jones to succeed bigtime  
SGMen : 5/6/2019 9:10 pm : link
I'm a Giants fan first and foremost, but as a kid I started out a Jets fan...the Sack Exchange!!!! Klecko! Lyons! Salamm! Gastineau!

Darnold had a decent enough rookie year given the talent he had around him (or lack thereof).
RE: RE: For the sake of the conversation...  
Leg of Theismann : 5/6/2019 9:41 pm : link
In comment 14434545 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434515 bw in dc said:


Quote:


like Sy, I would have taken Rosen.



Yes, Rosen for 37th overall wouldíve been ideal ...


+1 from me as well. Why is it that Jones got a pass for having zero talent around him at Duke, but Rosen didnít get a pass for having a horrid team (worst in the league in fact) around him for that one year in the pros in AZ? Rosen was a very highly regarded prospect, there were many on here who wanted him at #2 overall. A lot of people believe he could have been the best QB in a very strong 2018 QB class. If anything I felt the piece of humble pie he ate in Arizona would only build character, but instead he was downgraded to not even being worth #37 overall because of it? Meanwhile the kid from Duke gets a pass and they spend #6 overall on him? Doesnít make sense to me, and if you think about it, by trading for Rosen we would have Josh Allen right now, and although we wouldnít have Deandre Baker, we would still have Julian Love, Sam Beal, and Corey Ballentine as well as our 4th and 5th round picks we traded for Baker back. I have no problem with Baker, but that scenario sounds like a dream to me and if youíd told me last year we could have both Barkley AND Rosen without spending a 1st rounder on the latter Iíd have said you were crazy. Not sure what Jints Central is doing but it certainly feels like there are a lot of decisions made with the Gettlemanís ďgut feelingĒ as opposed to analytics (well we actually already know thatís the case).
RE: RE: RE: For the sake of the conversation...  
GothamGiants : 5/6/2019 9:45 pm : link
In comment 14434858 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14434545 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434515 bw in dc said:


Quote:


like Sy, I would have taken Rosen.



Yes, Rosen for 37th overall wouldíve been ideal ...



+1 from me as well. Why is it that Jones got a pass for having zero talent around him at Duke, but Rosen didnít get a pass for having a horrid team (worst in the league in fact) around him for that one year in the pros in AZ? Rosen was a very highly regarded prospect, there were many on here who wanted him at #2 overall. A lot of people believe he could have been the best QB in a very strong 2018 QB class. If anything I felt the piece of humble pie he ate in Arizona would only build character, but instead he was downgraded to not even being worth #37 overall because of it? Meanwhile the kid from Duke gets a pass and they spend #6 overall on him? Doesnít make sense to me, and if you think about it, by trading for Rosen we would have Josh Allen right now, and although we wouldnít have Deandre Baker, we would still have Julian Love, Sam Beal, and Corey Ballentine as well as our 4th and 5th round picks we traded for Baker back. I have no problem with Baker, but that scenario sounds like a dream to me and if youíd told me last year we could have both Barkley AND Rosen without spending a 1st rounder on the latter Iíd have said you were crazy. Not sure what Jints Central is doing but it certainly feels like there are a lot of decisions made with the Gettlemanís ďgut feelingĒ as opposed to analytics (well we actually already know thatís the case).


I just keep telling myself there is:

1. A reason the entire league felt he wasn't worth trading a high pick for
2. A reason the Giants weren't willing to part with 37

On the surface Rosen would've been a steal - and ESPN would be singing our praises - but the Giants clearly didn't value him highly.

37 overall would've been a no brainer if they wanted him.
RE: This thread is moronic  
bw in dc : 5/6/2019 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14434779 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.


Good stuff about Darnold and SC. Plus, SC was still dealing with scholarship totals via the never ending Reggie Bush saga. So Darnold was dealing with deficiencies, specifically with the OL.

And interesting point about Duke. I've made the same won about Duke & Cutcliffe pre-Jones arrival. Check the records. Duke has better WL records in the three prior years before Jones arrived under Cutcliffe's coaching.

Which begs the question - was it Jones or was it more Cutcliffe?
RE: RE: This thread is moronic  
AdamBrag : 5/6/2019 9:49 pm : link
In comment 14434795 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14434779 AdamBrag said:


Quote:


Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.



Opening a "moronic" thread, taking the tme to post, and then using college stats as support for an argument ... that's, in a word, moronic.

Let me guess, you're 1 of those people who drooled over Haskins 50 TDs too?


Sorry I used evidence to prove my point.

We could break down tape too, it supports my point. Jones locked onto his first read in college way too often. Jones accuracy fell apart when throwing on the move. Jones looked frazzled under pressure. Darnold went through his progressions far better, and he was very successful throwing on the move. He was good under pressure when he didn't see as much as a Freshmen. He wasn't good under pressure when he saw a lot more as a Sophomore.

Again, I'm 100% rooting for Jones to succeed and I really hope he's better then Darnold. But, let's try to be a little bit realistic here.
RE: RE: RE: Strahan91  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14434753 allstarjim said:
Quote:


WTF Jay. A bunch of defensive players and the QB that preceded him (for some odd reason). Relevant: Chuma Edoga, Ronald Jones, Zach Banner, Max Tuerk (a guy who didn't actually play with Darnold and who is probably already washed out of the league), and Kessler who makes no sense because he plays the same position and who just happened to be in his last year the same year that Darnold was basically on the team but didn't take a snap.

So it's Edoga, Jones, Smith-Schuster (played one season with Darnold) and Banner. We're not talking an all-star team, here.

So let's dispense with all the bullshit. Everyone is already giving Jones all the credit for not playing with quality players. Darnold DID NOT have a great team behind him. Player for player...Darnold has the better arm talent, and is at least as competitive.

Why do I say Darnold has the better arm talent? All the off-schedule, accurate throws. The zip he can put on the ball, deep ball accuracy. Darnold has similar escapability in the pocket and is able to make accurate throws far downfield that I don't see Jones make. That's it.

Jones is the better athlete. Darnold has incredible arm-talent, superior to Jones AT THIS POINT.

I was just pointing out the number of draft picks USC has produced compared to 0 for Duke during Jones' tenure. You do realize that having good defensive players makes the defense better which in turn helps out the QB right? It's not that hard to figure out but don't let that stop you from getting riled up even though I did agree that Darnold is the better prospect.

Where did I say that Darnold had a "great team?" I said that Darnold had better talent. Is that inaccurate? Schuster-Smith is a legit #1 WR and we would both be thrilled if he was on the Giants right now.
RE: RE: RE: This thread is moronic  
FranchiseQB : 5/6/2019 9:58 pm : link
In comment 14434875 AdamBrag said:
Quote:
In comment 14434795 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14434779 AdamBrag said:


Quote:


Darnold was a much better prospect coming out of college. I doubt the Giant's front office would even argue against that.

Darnold turned around a USC team that was garbage, as a freshmen. His freshmen season at USC was one of the most impressive freshmen seasons in the history of college football. Are we really comparing Daniel Jones to that?

I get it, Darnold struggled some when his entire offensive line and Juju left after his freshmen year, but the team still went 11-3.

Jones did not put up good stats at Duke. He does not have tools you drool over. I'm not sure he made Duke better because Duke had a better record before he got there and Thomas Sirk put up similar stats to him and Sean Renfree put up much better stats then him.

I'm not saying Jones is going to suck in the NFL, I'm just saying he's not the same level prospect as Darnold coming out of college.



Opening a "moronic" thread, taking the tme to post, and then using college stats as support for an argument ... that's, in a word, moronic.

Let me guess, you're 1 of those people who drooled over Haskins 50 TDs too?



Sorry I used evidence to prove my point.

We could break down tape too, it supports my point. Jones locked onto his first read in college way too often. Jones accuracy fell apart when throwing on the move. Jones looked frazzled under pressure. Darnold went through his progressions far better, and he was very successful throwing on the move. He was good under pressure when he didn't see as much as a Freshmen. He wasn't good under pressure when he saw a lot more as a Sophomore.

Again, I'm 100% rooting for Jones to succeed and I really hope he's better then Darnold. But, let's try to be a little bit realistic here.

yes.. well the reason Jones locks on his target is because that is the design of the Duke offense. It is a pre-snap read quick rhythm offense. Jones knows where he's going in the majority of the plays prior to the snap. This might make him a good fit for the Shurmur offense, and not a good fit for most other NFL offenses. Darnold's skill set, is better suited to a QB who makes things happen in the pocket, scanning multiple reads. Night and day, really. Darnold has a broader skill set as a QB. Which is not to say Jones can't add that to his game in time.
RE: allstarjim  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 10:23 pm : link
In comment 14434771 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.


You can make stats say whatever you want, and then there is the tape, which is clear on this subject.
Good  
Big d E 2 : 5/6/2019 10:27 pm : link
OP. Overall good discussion. Lets hope Jones turns out great. Love having SB on our team.
RE: RE: allstarjim  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 10:29 pm : link
In comment 14434902 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434771 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.



You can make stats say whatever you want, and then there is the tape, which is clear on this subject.

You can't make stats say whatever you want. You can cherry pick stats to support your argument. It's no different than ignoring the talent discrepancy on the QB's roster.

We won't know for another few years who the better QB is. Darnold was the better prospect coming out but he wasn't a perfect prospect or on the level of a Luck. It doesn't mean that he will be the better NFL QB especially if the Jets don't significantly improve their drafting.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Strahan91  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 10:30 pm : link
In comment 14434879 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434753 allstarjim said:


Quote:




WTF Jay. A bunch of defensive players and the QB that preceded him (for some odd reason). Relevant: Chuma Edoga, Ronald Jones, Zach Banner, Max Tuerk (a guy who didn't actually play with Darnold and who is probably already washed out of the league), and Kessler who makes no sense because he plays the same position and who just happened to be in his last year the same year that Darnold was basically on the team but didn't take a snap.

So it's Edoga, Jones, Smith-Schuster (played one season with Darnold) and Banner. We're not talking an all-star team, here.

So let's dispense with all the bullshit. Everyone is already giving Jones all the credit for not playing with quality players. Darnold DID NOT have a great team behind him. Player for player...Darnold has the better arm talent, and is at least as competitive.

Why do I say Darnold has the better arm talent? All the off-schedule, accurate throws. The zip he can put on the ball, deep ball accuracy. Darnold has similar escapability in the pocket and is able to make accurate throws far downfield that I don't see Jones make. That's it.

Jones is the better athlete. Darnold has incredible arm-talent, superior to Jones AT THIS POINT.


I was just pointing out the number of draft picks USC has produced compared to 0 for Duke during Jones' tenure. You do realize that having good defensive players makes the defense better which in turn helps out the QB right? It's not that hard to figure out but don't let that stop you from getting riled up even though I did agree that Darnold is the better prospect.

Where did I say that Darnold had a "great team?" I said that Darnold had better talent. Is that inaccurate? Schuster-Smith is a legit #1 WR and we would both be thrilled if he was on the Giants right now.


I didn't get riled up. And no, a better defense doesn't necessarily help out the QB. In terms of prospect evaluation, it's irrelevant. There is enough tape on both players' college performance to determine their bonafides as a prospect. Yes, Jones is a harder eval because the talent he had ON OFFENSE was inferior to Darnold's as well as just about every other major college football program QB's. But that doesn't make Darnold's defense relevant at all for the sake of this argument, not even a little bit.

Does it matter in terms of team outcomes, wins and losses? Sure. But in prospect eval? Not at all.
RE: RE: RE: allstarjim  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 10:34 pm : link
In comment 14434907 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434902 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434771 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.



You can make stats say whatever you want, and then there is the tape, which is clear on this subject.


You can't make stats say whatever you want. You can cherry pick stats to support your argument. It's no different than ignoring the talent discrepancy on the QB's roster.

We won't know for another few years who the better QB is. Darnold was the better prospect coming out but he wasn't a perfect prospect or on the level of a Luck. It doesn't mean that he will be the better NFL QB especially if the Jets don't significantly improve their drafting.


And bringing up a QB that was his teammate for one season who preceded him as starter in a year he didn't even make a start, as well as an OL who was drafted before he ever made a start, to say anything of the player he was on his USC teams is disingenuous at the least. I don't even know why anyone would bring up guys like Cody Kessler and Max Tuerk in a discussion about Darnold, except to obfuscate.
Adambrag  
Marty866b : 5/6/2019 10:47 pm : link
Good post. The folks at USC would agree with you 100%. The team was awful in 2016 and was 1-3 until Darnold took over and went 9-1 the rest of the way including and incredible Rose Bowl performance that defeated Barkley and Penn State. Darnold, then went 11-3 as a soph. USC's first year without Sam played under .500.
RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim  
Jay on the Island : 5/6/2019 10:49 pm : link
In comment 14434911 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14434907 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434902 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434771 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.



You can make stats say whatever you want, and then there is the tape, which is clear on this subject.


You can't make stats say whatever you want. You can cherry pick stats to support your argument. It's no different than ignoring the talent discrepancy on the QB's roster.

We won't know for another few years who the better QB is. Darnold was the better prospect coming out but he wasn't a perfect prospect or on the level of a Luck. It doesn't mean that he will be the better NFL QB especially if the Jets don't significantly improve their drafting.



And bringing up a QB that was his teammate for one season who preceded him as starter in a year he didn't even make a start, as well as an OL who was drafted before he ever made a start, to say anything of the player he was on his USC teams is disingenuous at the least. I don't even know why anyone would bring up guys like Cody Kessler and Max Tuerk in a discussion about Darnold, except to obfuscate.

OMG dude once again I was comparing the college programs. Obviously a QB has no affect on Darnold. I missed Tuerk I saw that he was drafted in 2016. Duke is a pitiful program as they have had only 7 players drafted over the past 19 years. Someone posted that North Dakota State has had 10 over that time period. Darnold did not play on the power house USC squads that Leinart and Sanchez.
comparing USC to Duke like it's any way similar is silly  
Eric on Li : 5/6/2019 10:54 pm : link
in the 2 years prior to Darnold starting USC was a preseason top 15 team, both years rising into the top 10. But yeah, he "turned them around". Anyone can try as hard as they want to spin it but the reality is simple there are at least 13 reasons why the 2 situations are different - starting with Adoree Jackson, Juju, Ronald Jones, and in all about half of the starting roster Darnold played who have gotten drafted over the last few years - plus a bunch of others probably signed as UDFAs.

Know how many Duke players have been drafted since 2015? Daniel Jones. Can anyone even name a single player who has started a game in the NFL that Jones played with on either side of the ball? Jamison Crowder and Jeremy Cash both graduated before he played.

Gonna have to dig deep on this mystery to figure out why Darnold had a better W-L record. And I like Darnold but this notion that he's some super prospect carrying half of a team of NFL'ers and Jones is a product of Cutcliffe is bending reality.
RE: Guys,..... and the Godfather thinks Jones is the next Peyton  
giantstock : 5/6/2019 11:01 pm : link
In comment 14434727 George from PA said:
Quote:
You can repeat the media dribble....

Lets see how it plays out.

We will all have front row seats


Are you talking Gil Brandt? If so-- no he doesn;t. He compared him in some ways to Peyton but there is a reason why he had Jones rated as his 17th best prospect and --- you know for example in 2018 he had Rosen ranked as his 2nd best overall prospect and Darnold as his 3rd. SO he probably does not have Jones ahead of Darnold -- it's the exact opposite more than likely.

See links below of Brandt's 2018 and 2091.

And if we want to further treat Brandy as gospel then he had this year Josh Allen as his 3rd overall ranked prospect, Oliver his 4th and Dillard his 11th.

If we are going to use Brandt then we've got to use the entire picture.

Not saying he is right - and am looking forward to Jones what he can do in future.

I hope some of you are right as is DG with Jones. It will eb so freaking exciting having a terrific QB paired with Barkley. I think the world of Barkley --- IF he can get the necessary pieces. It would be amazing to see.
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000926642/article/hot-150-gil-brandts-topranked-prospects-for-2018-nfl-draft

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001026448/article/hot-150-gil-brandts-topranked-prospects-for-2019-nfl-draft
A point on Daniel Jones  
twostepgiants : 5/6/2019 11:03 pm : link
There is an argument that he had this terrible talent around him and all of these drops etc and thatís why his stats are poor

But Iíd have to buy that this occurred for all 3 seasons at Duke because his stats were virtually identical each season

And shouldnít this translate into some big games against teams where Duke had the superior talent or even similar talent?

Virginia is not a particularly good college team and they played each of his 3 years starting and Jones put up 324 yds with a TD and 5 INTs in a 34-20 loss against a 2-10 team as a sophomore, he had 124 yds passing a TD and 2 INT in a 28-21 loss against a 6-7 team as a Junior and 240 yds and a TD and 2 INT in a 28-14 loss against a 8-5 team as a Senior.

Jones had 184 yds with an INT with a QBR of 19 vs a 1-11 Baylor team. His team managed to win 34-20 with him playing like that so obviously some teammates are capable of doing something.
I also remember a lot of excuses for Josh Allenís flaws  
twostepgiants : 5/6/2019 11:05 pm : link
Like his inaccuracy and all of those flaws have followed him into the NFL.

So I dont quite easily dismiss the lack of actual production.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: allstarjim  
allstarjim : 5/6/2019 11:12 pm : link
In comment 14434921 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14434911 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434907 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14434902 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14434771 Strahan91 said:


Quote:


Darnold deep pass adj comp % in 2017: 45.2%

Jones deep pass adj comp % in 2018: 44.4%

Darnold is not far more accurate in the deep passing game than Jones. Jones' receivers rarely got much, if any separation. Darnold in his best season was throwing to JuJu who top NFL CB's can't defend.



You can make stats say whatever you want, and then there is the tape, which is clear on this subject.


You can't make stats say whatever you want. You can cherry pick stats to support your argument. It's no different than ignoring the talent discrepancy on the QB's roster.

We won't know for another few years who the better QB is. Darnold was the better prospect coming out but he wasn't a perfect prospect or on the level of a Luck. It doesn't mean that he will be the better NFL QB especially if the Jets don't significantly improve their drafting.



And bringing up a QB that was his teammate for one season who preceded him as starter in a year he didn't even make a start, as well as an OL who was drafted before he ever made a start, to say anything of the player he was on his USC teams is disingenuous at the least. I don't even know why anyone would bring up guys like Cody Kessler and Max Tuerk in a discussion about Darnold, except to obfuscate.


OMG dude once again I was comparing the college programs. Obviously a QB has no affect on Darnold. I missed Tuerk I saw that he was drafted in 2016. Duke is a pitiful program as they have had only 7 players drafted over the past 19 years. Someone posted that North Dakota State has had 10 over that time period. Darnold did not play on the power house USC squads that Leinart and Sanchez.


I objected to the fact that you said to look at the players Darnold has played with who were drafted. Then you went on to list guys that actually never saw the field with Darnold but were drafted during his freshman season at USC when he never played a down.

We agree on more than we disagree. But there's no use in exaggerating the situation to make points here. If you said, USC had and has a better program with better players than Duke, I'd simply agree.

If you're talking about W-L record, sure, that's a factor. If you're talking about the actual talent of the QBs relative to each other, I would say it makes little difference because what is observable on tape is clear as to the talent level respectively.

Jones' inferior OL play makes him a harder eval, but there's enough there to get a good eval. Darnold didn't have a great OL either, though. I think you can compare the QBs with their on-field performance (as long as you've seen enough of both players), to get a fairly accurate portrayal of each's strengths, weaknesses, and talent level.

From what I saw, there is a significant gap between Darnold and Jones as prospects. I would've had Jones as a 79 grade. I would've had Darnold as an 84.

There's certainly differences of opinion and that's ok. To me, that's the gap. I do like a lot of what Jones does but there is a lot of throws that weren't impacted by the rush that he didn't make a good throw on. We aren't talking the highest degree of difficulty throws, either. I know his receivers dropped a lot of passes and I don't care about the stats too much. It's the tape that is most important.

I do believe the Jets have a franchise QB that can take them to the playoffs on a consistent basis. I believe the Giants have a prospect that, with good development, has the potential to do the same, but he has more work to do.
I'm perplexed as to why no one sees my point....  
manh george : 5/7/2019 12:30 am : link

that this is really Darnold plus, say, Allen, vs. Barkley and Jones.
--The Giants could have had their long-term franchise qb prospect last year in the #2 spot, but went for a superstar running back instead.

--They got a qb prospect this year but that matters in the context of not picking one last year because they loved Barkley.

--If Jones isn't significantly worse as a prospect than Darnold, as Sy's score would suggest, then the Giants hit a home run, because they got a vastly more important player last year than even someone like Allen would be this year.

The Giants gambled last year that they could wait a year on a quality qb prospect, and take the superstar rb instead. If Jones works out as a starting QB, then the gamble worked. If not, not. But making the decision NOT to go qb last year has to be considered in the context of taking Barkley instead of Darnold.
I don't believe Darnold is any better than Jones as a propsect  
PatersonPlank : 5/7/2019 1:42 am : link
In fact I like Jones better frankly. Darnold has done close to nothing so far, so the amount of attention given to him as a franchise guy is rediculous. In the end my personal opinion he'll be a backup type guy. I think Jones + Barkley, is far superior in then end vs Darnold plus Williams.
Doesn't Darnold have  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/7/2019 3:15 am : link
Frail weak turner over prone rat claws?
RE: Doesn't Darnold have  
ATL_Giants : 5/7/2019 7:11 am : link
In comment 14434983 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Frail weak turner over prone rat claws?
LoL
Darnold Is The Better Prospect ...  
Rong5611 : 5/7/2019 7:28 am : link
Until proven otherwise. Not a knock on Jones. Darnold was a highly touted prospect coming out of a traditionally strong program. Duke is a basketball school, not a football powerhouse. Jones was the only kid drafted from Duke in recent years.

We'll see. I like what I see in Jones, time will tell if he is worth the #6 pick. I hope he is. Rooting for him to succeed.

RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
mavric : 5/7/2019 8:04 am : link
In comment 14434792 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
And your not sure if Jones made Duke better? I didnít really need to read anything else you wrote because those two statements define moronic better than any other statements made in this thread.


Jones was throwing to 5'9" future cardiologists with 7" slippery hands and turned the Duke team into a respectable program during his tenure in a highly competitive conference leading the Blue Devils to an 8-5 record and two bowl wins where he was MVP.

USC has legitimate WR's and legitimate linemen to protect their QB even if their program was not doing well.
RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
twostepgiants : 5/7/2019 10:21 am : link
In comment 14435030 mavric said:
Quote:
In comment 14434792 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


And your not sure if Jones made Duke better? I didnít really need to read anything else you wrote because those two statements define moronic better than any other statements made in this thread.



Jones was throwing to 5'9" future cardiologists with 7" slippery hands and turned the Duke team into a respectable program during his tenure in a highly competitive conference leading the Blue Devils to an 8-5 record and two bowl wins where he was MVP.

USC has legitimate WR's and legitimate linemen to protect their QB even if their program was not doing well.


Maybe.

But Jones took over an 8-5 team that won a Bowl game with a QB - Thomas Sirk who put up virtually identical stats to Jones in the same system and won the bowl game MVP too.
RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 10:48 am : link
In comment 14435199 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14435030 mavric said:


Quote:


In comment 14434792 BSIMatt said:


Quote:


And your not sure if Jones made Duke better? I didnít really need to read anything else you wrote because those two statements define moronic better than any other statements made in this thread.



Jones was throwing to 5'9" future cardiologists with 7" slippery hands and turned the Duke team into a respectable program during his tenure in a highly competitive conference leading the Blue Devils to an 8-5 record and two bowl wins where he was MVP.

USC has legitimate WR's and legitimate linemen to protect their QB even if their program was not doing well.



Maybe.

But Jones took over an 8-5 team that won a Bowl game with a QB - Thomas Sirk who put up virtually identical stats to Jones in the same system and won the bowl game MVP too.


apparently the Giants also liked him too ...

All I'm gonna say on Jones is:

1. He's got prototype size
2. He's got a good arm. Arm strength is not an issue. It is not "elite", nor is it a liability.
3. He is a good athlete (nearly identical to QB Josh Allen)
4. He is tough and delivers catchable passes from the pocket while taking a beating.
5. By all accounts he's got the work ethic/coaching/mechanics to further develop

I don't think he's a better prospect than Darnold, and I also don't think Darnold is a vastly superior QB prospect - at least not in terms of the perceived gap you see by the media/fan reactions.

Size, arm, mobility, toughness, work ethic, pro-caliber mechanics/footwork ... I don't know what else you'd want in a young QB to develop.

Hopefully both develop accordingly and both fan bases are pleased. Thank you to all who actually provided insight/perspective on the thread topic - I never really accounted for the fact Darnold's been in the spotlight a lot longer (top recruit, USC, etc.) which would certainly lend to more notoriety/hype/belief he's a "franchise QB" while most people never heard of Daniel Jones or even knew Duke played football still.
Sirk - ( New Window )
RE: I'm perplexed as to why no one sees my point....  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 11:07 am : link
In comment 14434968 manh george said:
Quote:

that this is really Darnold plus, say, Allen, vs. Barkley and Jones.
--The Giants could have had their long-term franchise qb prospect last year in the #2 spot, but went for a superstar running back instead.

--They got a qb prospect this year but that matters in the context of not picking one last year because they loved Barkley.

--If Jones isn't significantly worse as a prospect than Darnold, as Sy's score would suggest, then the Giants hit a home run, because they got a vastly more important player last year than even someone like Allen would be this year.

The Giants gambled last year that they could wait a year on a quality qb prospect, and take the superstar rb instead. If Jones works out as a starting QB, then the gamble worked. If not, not. But making the decision NOT to go qb last year has to be considered in the context of taking Barkley instead of Darnold.


Because it's not a good point at all. It's not Darnold and Chubb (to just use an example) over Jones and Barkley as if that were the only choices. Because there really shouldn't have been an imperative to draft Jones or any of the other QBs this year. It was Darnold vs Barkley last year, and IMO they made the right choice, because as much as I like Darnold, Barkley is an all-time great talent.

You might say it's what we could have had vs Josh Allen plus building the team up and taking a QB next year vs what we did this year. It's not as if Darnold and Jones were the only two options.
RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
Eric on Li : 5/7/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14435199 twostepgiants said:
Quote:


Maybe.

But Jones took over an 8-5 team that won a Bowl game with a QB - Thomas Sirk who put up virtually identical stats to Jones in the same system and won the bowl game MVP too.


In the years immediately prior to Jones Duke had a few NFL/all ACC quality players - Crowder, Tomlinson, Jeremy Cash, our own Ross Cockerill, and a few other OL end up as UDFA's. As happens in college those guys graduated and since 2015 they haven't had a single player drafted.

I don't know who the best player jones has played with the past couple years is. But I guarantee there were somewhere between 10-20 guys better than that player on the field with Darnold for just about every game he played at USC.
Funny...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/7/2019 11:39 am : link
...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.
RE: Funny...  
PatersonPlank : 5/7/2019 11:47 am : link
In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.


Amazing isn't it? I'm beginning to believe that the HOF player Darnold really played at the University of Southern Connecticut rather than at the University of Southern California.
RE: Funny...  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.


Literally no one has done that.
RE: RE: Funny...  
Brown Recluse : 5/7/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14435328 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.



Literally no one has done that.


Sure they are. And it started last year. Same people. Same agenda. Still going strong.
It's just amazing...  
Johnny5 : 5/7/2019 12:14 pm : link
... how butt hurt people get because the Giants didn't draft exactly who they wanted... lol. Move on already for crissakes.
It seems clear  
JonC : 5/7/2019 12:16 pm : link
fans are pissed because they feel Jones was a reach at #6. At #17, the barking would've been considerably less as the Giants would've exited those two draft picks with their QB of the future and an edge rusher.

Further, many here were locked onto Haskins, even after I shared #6 figured to be way too high for him.
Logical fallacy  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 12:17 pm : link
The fact that Daniel Jones played on a garbage team is not evidence that he is good. I think folks should stop repeating it like it proves anything. All it does is mitigate why he had a statistically unimpressive career. Remember he was the seventh ranked passer - IN THE ACC.

His college career is not why the Giants picked him sixth. They picked him there because of what they saw on tape and his potential to fit their system.
This thread could go on for years and break all records  
Ira : 5/7/2019 12:19 pm : link
.
RE: Funny...  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.


Yeah ... that argument is beyond absurd. Since 2015, the last time Duke had a player drafted, USC has had 17 players drafted. Duke: 1.

I've deduced from this thread that:

1. Darnold is just way better because we've been told he is.
2. Darnold gets a lot of notoriety from being a top HS recruit + USC spotlight + being a part of the "class of 2018".
3. Darnold may have more boom/bust potential due to "superior arm talent"

Per Cosell:

"Good arm, but not a power arm... ability to make throws from different platforms/arm angles ... playmaking dimension to his game as both a passer and runner ... overall threw with good touch ... Longer than desired delivery and poor lower body mechanics... causes loss of velocity/accuracy ... frenetic and not fundamentally sound ... overly reactive to perceived pressure ... consistent accuracy/ball placement issues ... field vision a concern ...

... mechanics, fundamentals, footwork need re-tooling ... tantalizing prospect you are drafting based on what you believe he can become ..."


"Good natural arm strength with needed velocity on intermediate throws, but not a power thrower ... threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory and good accuracy ... consistently precise ball placement ... deceptive runner both by design and improvisation ... showed pocket toughness delivering in the face of pressure ... lower body mechanics need refinement ... too many throws "Stepping into the bucket" ... no natural twitch/explosiveness to his movement in the pocket ...

... functional mobility with excellent feel/understanding of timing, plus arm strength but not power thrower, precise ball placement a strong positive to his game..."

So neither are "power throwers", one is better under pressure and has more consistently precise ball placement ... both have similar athletic ability / measurables ... one needs a complete overhaul in mechanics, the other needs "refinement" ... these don't read as 2 QBs that are much different.
RE: Logical fallacy  
Eric on Li : 5/7/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14435355 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
The fact that Daniel Jones played on a garbage team is not evidence that he is good. I think folks should stop repeating it like it proves anything. All it does is mitigate why he had a statistically unimpressive career. Remember he was the seventh ranked passer - IN THE ACC.

His college career is not why the Giants picked him sixth. They picked him there because of what they saw on tape and his potential to fit their system.


Comprehension fallacy - nobody has said Jones is good because his team sucked. Many have pointed out the good from his skill set (accuracy, decision making, toughness, athleticism) and performances they've watched. The lack of talent around him is central context for evaluating him statistically in comparison to others. Like Darnold. Which was the premise of this thread.

The logical fallacy in this thread is that a QB who played with somewhere between 10-20 guys now in the NFL had the same talent deficiency as a guy who played with 0.
RE: RE: Funny...  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14435368 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.



Yeah ... that argument is beyond absurd. Since 2015, the last time Duke had a player drafted, USC has had 17 players drafted. Duke: 1.

I've deduced from this thread that:

1. Darnold is just way better because we've been told he is.
2. Darnold gets a lot of notoriety from being a top HS recruit + USC spotlight + being a part of the "class of 2018".
3. Darnold may have more boom/bust potential due to "superior arm talent"

Per Cosell:

"Good arm, but not a power arm... ability to make throws from different platforms/arm angles ... playmaking dimension to his game as both a passer and runner ... overall threw with good touch ... Longer than desired delivery and poor lower body mechanics... causes loss of velocity/accuracy ... frenetic and not fundamentally sound ... overly reactive to perceived pressure ... consistent accuracy/ball placement issues ... field vision a concern ...

... mechanics, fundamentals, footwork need re-tooling ... tantalizing prospect you are drafting based on what you believe he can become ..."


"Good natural arm strength with needed velocity on intermediate throws, but not a power thrower ... threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory and good accuracy ... consistently precise ball placement ... deceptive runner both by design and improvisation ... showed pocket toughness delivering in the face of pressure ... lower body mechanics need refinement ... too many throws "Stepping into the bucket" ... no natural twitch/explosiveness to his movement in the pocket ...

... functional mobility with excellent feel/understanding of timing, plus arm strength but not power thrower, precise ball placement a strong positive to his game..."

So neither are "power throwers", one is better under pressure and has more consistently precise ball placement ... both have similar athletic ability / measurables ... one needs a complete overhaul in mechanics, the other needs "refinement" ... these don't read as 2 QBs that are much different.


You are twisting Cosell's thoughts on these QBs. There is no doubt he liked Darnold more than Jones this year. He ranked Jones 4th in this class and I know he liked the 2018 class better than the 2019 class. Using his general platitudes to compare the two does not stand in for his rankings. He had Darnold close to Rosen and Mayfield last year. I have no doubt that they would be in a single tier with Murray above all the other QBs from the last two seasons when stacked together.
RE: This thread could go on for years and break all records  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14435359 Ira said:
Quote:
.


When you step off the ledge, tune out ESPN/talking heads, strip away the stigmas/USC/Duke/etc. and just look at the reports (strengths/weaknesses) - these 2 are not far off from each other.

The point was never "Jones is better than Darnold" ... rather, "Why was Darnold hailed as the savior of New York while Daniel Jones has been torn apart since his selection?"

These 2 QBs are not that far off as prospects. I could see Darnold having "more upside" if his flawed mechanics are corrected and he loses the frenetic / wreckless approach to his game as he appears better "improving" while Jones is the more fundamentally sound who's also more likely to consistently hit the targets he's supposed to.

* I like both QBs and would've been fine with Darnold last year had Saquon not been available.
Darnold had some great moments in his rookie campaign.  
Big Blue '56 : 5/7/2019 12:38 pm : link
Still a few years for him to either make his mark or not. I wasnít all that impressed and certainly did not see why some splooged over the guy. But, as just stated, letís wait another year or 2 and see what shakes out.
RE: RE: Logical fallacy  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14435377 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14435355 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


The fact that Daniel Jones played on a garbage team is not evidence that he is good. I think folks should stop repeating it like it proves anything. All it does is mitigate why he had a statistically unimpressive career. Remember he was the seventh ranked passer - IN THE ACC.

His college career is not why the Giants picked him sixth. They picked him there because of what they saw on tape and his potential to fit their system.



Comprehension fallacy - nobody has said Jones is good because his team sucked. Many have pointed out the good from his skill set (accuracy, decision making, toughness, athleticism) and performances they've watched. The lack of talent around him is central context for evaluating him statistically in comparison to others. Like Darnold. Which was the premise of this thread.

The logical fallacy in this thread is that a QB who played with somewhere between 10-20 guys now in the NFL had the same talent deficiency as a guy who played with 0.


yea nice try but that last bit you stated -- that's not a logical fallacy.

There are thousands of QBs who played on bad teams and put up mediocre stats. It is not a reason Jones is good. Darnold had amazing games at the height of the collegiate sport and he has been hailed by experts, real experts, as an exciting QB prospect. That's not Jones. That is why people feel the Giants reached for him. Sorry the truth bothers you. It doesn't bother me and I am okay with the pick. I don't have to pretend that Daniel Jones is really Andrew Luck as a prospect to feel Gettleman did the right thing, for a change.
Both will be good.  
Dave in Hoboken : 5/7/2019 12:40 pm : link
Darnold wasn't great, but he had a better rookie year than some QB's who turned out to be franchise QBs, and he was the youngest QB to ever start in the NFL. He'll be good if the Jets surround him with a good cast.
RE: RE: RE: Funny...  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14435378 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14435368 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.



Yeah ... that argument is beyond absurd. Since 2015, the last time Duke had a player drafted, USC has had 17 players drafted. Duke: 1.

I've deduced from this thread that:

1. Darnold is just way better because we've been told he is.
2. Darnold gets a lot of notoriety from being a top HS recruit + USC spotlight + being a part of the "class of 2018".
3. Darnold may have more boom/bust potential due to "superior arm talent"

Per Cosell:

"Good arm, but not a power arm... ability to make throws from different platforms/arm angles ... playmaking dimension to his game as both a passer and runner ... overall threw with good touch ... Longer than desired delivery and poor lower body mechanics... causes loss of velocity/accuracy ... frenetic and not fundamentally sound ... overly reactive to perceived pressure ... consistent accuracy/ball placement issues ... field vision a concern ...

... mechanics, fundamentals, footwork need re-tooling ... tantalizing prospect you are drafting based on what you believe he can become ..."


"Good natural arm strength with needed velocity on intermediate throws, but not a power thrower ... threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory and good accuracy ... consistently precise ball placement ... deceptive runner both by design and improvisation ... showed pocket toughness delivering in the face of pressure ... lower body mechanics need refinement ... too many throws "Stepping into the bucket" ... no natural twitch/explosiveness to his movement in the pocket ...

... functional mobility with excellent feel/understanding of timing, plus arm strength but not power thrower, precise ball placement a strong positive to his game..."

So neither are "power throwers", one is better under pressure and has more consistently precise ball placement ... both have similar athletic ability / measurables ... one needs a complete overhaul in mechanics, the other needs "refinement" ... these don't read as 2 QBs that are much different.



You are twisting Cosell's thoughts on these QBs. There is no doubt he liked Darnold more than Jones this year. He ranked Jones 4th in this class and I know he liked the 2018 class better than the 2019 class. Using his general platitudes to compare the two does not stand in for his rankings. He had Darnold close to Rosen and Mayfield last year. I have no doubt that they would be in a single tier with Murray above all the other QBs from the last two seasons when stacked together.


I'm twisting nothing, quoting both players perceived strengths/ weaknesses to determine why there is such a widely perceived gap in ability. It's interesting when you remove all of the BS and just read what's written - makes you think Jones may not have been the worst pick of all time while Darnold's the future face of the NFL?

Between Cosell's scouting reports and Sy's grades it sure doesn't seem like there's a huge gap in their actual ability, which is all I care about.
RE: It seems clear  
bw in dc : 5/7/2019 12:45 pm : link
In comment 14435354 JonC said:
Quote:
fans are pissed because they feel Jones was a reach at #6. At #17, the barking would've been considerably less as the Giants would've exited those two draft picks with their QB of the future and an edge rusher.

Further, many here were locked onto Haskins, even after I shared #6 figured to be way too high for him.


I think it's this - with an investment that high you usually expect, which I think is reasonable, a player whose talents just jump off the screen. I didn't like the Barkley pick because I think the RB position has become commodtized, but there is NO denying Barkley's skill set. Everything about him screams different. You see something unusual.

I dare anyone with a straight face to say Jones creates any of that reaction. He looks like a guy who had a nice college career who exceeded his zero star recruiting projection. A guy who had really good coaching. So, and I'm being rhetorical, what's so special here...??
I like Darnold  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 12:49 pm : link
and I like what I saw at times his rookie year
I've said it repeatedly, this is not anti-Darnold nor Anti-Jets.

This was meant to determine what, specifically, made Darnold so much more highly regarded as a prospect by fans/media/etc.

If anything, Darnold seems like the 1 who may make more "wow plays" while Jones may make less highlight reel throws but also is more consistent on a play-by-play basis. I don't see Darnold's arm as this vastly superior element to his game and both are very similarly athletically ... Jones comes off as robotically consistent while Darnold will be an adventure (good and bad) every time he drops back.
you know, given how incredibly bad Duke supposedly is  
Greg from LI : 5/7/2019 12:51 pm : link
....how did they manage to beat Baylor on the road with Jones out with a broken collarbone? I mean, Baylor was nothing special last year, but to hear people here talk, Duke was basically a D-III team outside of Daniel Jones.
u do realize Darnold's 2017 was universally considered disappointing?  
Eric on Li : 5/7/2019 12:52 pm : link
he was hyped up as the next the next star QB after his 2016 season, and then in 2017 he regressed across the board - that's why he wasn't picked #1 overall. He went from being the preseason favorite to win the heisman to not being in the top 10 finalists.

Anyone who thinks Daniel Jones is Andrew Luck is foolish, as is anyone who thinks the same about Darnold. They both entered the NFL with flawed resumes, which is why neither went #1 overall.
RE: RE: RE: Funny...  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 12:53 pm : link
In comment 14435338 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
In comment 14435328 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.



Literally no one has done that.



Sure they are. And it started last year. Same people. Same agenda. Still going strong.


Nobody has said USC's team was worse than Duke's. People might have objected to the exaggeration of how much better USC's team was over Duke's. They might have objected to the relevancy of how good each respective team was when comparing the talent level of Darnold and Jones, but nobody has said USC's team was worse than Duke's. Didn't happen, and if it did, show me where.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Funny...  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 12:54 pm : link
In comment 14435393 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14435378 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14435368 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14435295 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that there are guys here that are working so hard to support their pre-draft reasoning, that they would suggest that Darnold's USC team was somehow less talented than Jones' Duke team.



Yeah ... that argument is beyond absurd. Since 2015, the last time Duke had a player drafted, USC has had 17 players drafted. Duke: 1.

I've deduced from this thread that:

1. Darnold is just way better because we've been told he is.
2. Darnold gets a lot of notoriety from being a top HS recruit + USC spotlight + being a part of the "class of 2018".
3. Darnold may have more boom/bust potential due to "superior arm talent"

Per Cosell:

"Good arm, but not a power arm... ability to make throws from different platforms/arm angles ... playmaking dimension to his game as both a passer and runner ... overall threw with good touch ... Longer than desired delivery and poor lower body mechanics... causes loss of velocity/accuracy ... frenetic and not fundamentally sound ... overly reactive to perceived pressure ... consistent accuracy/ball placement issues ... field vision a concern ...

... mechanics, fundamentals, footwork need re-tooling ... tantalizing prospect you are drafting based on what you believe he can become ..."


"Good natural arm strength with needed velocity on intermediate throws, but not a power thrower ... threw a nice deep ball with the right trajectory and good accuracy ... consistently precise ball placement ... deceptive runner both by design and improvisation ... showed pocket toughness delivering in the face of pressure ... lower body mechanics need refinement ... too many throws "Stepping into the bucket" ... no natural twitch/explosiveness to his movement in the pocket ...

... functional mobility with excellent feel/understanding of timing, plus arm strength but not power thrower, precise ball placement a strong positive to his game..."

So neither are "power throwers", one is better under pressure and has more consistently precise ball placement ... both have similar athletic ability / measurables ... one needs a complete overhaul in mechanics, the other needs "refinement" ... these don't read as 2 QBs that are much different.



You are twisting Cosell's thoughts on these QBs. There is no doubt he liked Darnold more than Jones this year. He ranked Jones 4th in this class and I know he liked the 2018 class better than the 2019 class. Using his general platitudes to compare the two does not stand in for his rankings. He had Darnold close to Rosen and Mayfield last year. I have no doubt that they would be in a single tier with Murray above all the other QBs from the last two seasons when stacked together.



I'm twisting nothing, quoting both players perceived strengths/ weaknesses to determine why there is such a widely perceived gap in ability. It's interesting when you remove all of the BS and just read what's written - makes you think Jones may not have been the worst pick of all time while Darnold's the future face of the NFL?

Between Cosell's scouting reports and Sy's grades it sure doesn't seem like there's a huge gap in their actual ability, which is all I care about.


Here is a Cosell ranking summary. They have Jones listed as 3rd for him but it is really 4th (out of the 2019 class) and 5th if you include Rosen. That places him last among the premiere QBs available in this class. Cosell does not have Darnold and Jones even. Again, I am not bashing the Jones selection. I like it. I am just being realistic. By the way in Cosell's description he compares Jones to Foles as a system QB. That is what he is right now. And he is believed to be a great fit for the Shurmur system. He is not a QB that is projected to go out and put the team on his shoulders and win you games - FOR NOW. Darnold is that kind of QB prospect. See the difference?
Cosell and others on draft class - ( New Window )
I really don't recall too many BBI posters  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/7/2019 12:55 pm : link
banging the table for Darnold.
RE: u do realize Darnold's 2017 was universally considered disappointing?  
BSIMatt : 5/7/2019 12:57 pm : link
In comment 14435401 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he was hyped up as the next the next star QB after his 2016 season, and then in 2017 he regressed across the board - that's why he wasn't picked #1 overall. He went from being the preseason favorite to win the heisman to not being in the top 10 finalists.

Anyone who thinks Daniel Jones is Andrew Luck is foolish, as is anyone who thinks the same about Darnold. They both entered the NFL with flawed resumes, which is why neither went #1 overall.


I think that is a good way to look at it. Feels like some act as though we passed on what was a sure thing, Luck type pick, when we passed on Darnold. The 2018 classes strength was in the number of high quality prospects but they all had flaws and there wasnít a luck level, Manning level(Peyton or Eli) level prospect in the group, they all had upside and things to like but they all had concerns and risks that a usual top prospect quarterback doesnít. Thatís why I had no problem going the Barkley route.
RE: u do realize Darnold's 2017 was universally considered disappointing?  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 12:59 pm : link
In comment 14435401 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
he was hyped up as the next the next star QB after his 2016 season, and then in 2017 he regressed across the board - that's why he wasn't picked #1 overall. He went from being the preseason favorite to win the heisman to not being in the top 10 finalists.

Anyone who thinks Daniel Jones is Andrew Luck is foolish, as is anyone who thinks the same about Darnold. They both entered the NFL with flawed resumes, which is why neither went #1 overall.


I think a theme of this thread is that people keep arguing against strawmen that they are creating. Like, nobody said either of these guys were Andrew Luck unless I missed that somewhere. Andrew Luck was a 90-level prospect. Nobody since Peyton Manning in 1998 before or anyone after was as heralded a prospect as Andrew Luck.

If anyone does believe that Jones or Darnold is on that level, they are wrong, but again, who is saying this?
RE: you know, given how incredibly bad Duke supposedly is  
Eric on Li : 5/7/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14435400 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
....how did they manage to beat Baylor on the road with Jones out with a broken collarbone? I mean, Baylor was nothing special last year, but to hear people here talk, Duke was basically a D-III team outside of Daniel Jones.


I didn't watch the game but browsing the box score I'd guess Baylor lost because they lost the turnover battle -2 and allowed 225 rushing yards. Baylor also played 2 different QB's but I don't know if the starter got injured or benched.

Jones' replacement was 12-30 for 174 yards, 3 tds, and rushed for 83 yards so he didn't exactly light things up.
RE: I really don't recall too many BBI posters  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14435407 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
banging the table for Darnold.


If Barkley didn't exist I would've. But Saquon is such a rare, rare player that you just can't ignore.

You take Saquon out of that draft and I'd bang the table hard for Darnold. I think the Jets are going to be very happy, and I think they set themselves up to be a power in that division when Brady retires.
RE: RE: u do realize Darnold's 2017 was universally considered disappointing?  
Eric on Li : 5/7/2019 1:03 pm : link
In comment 14435412 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14435401 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he was hyped up as the next the next star QB after his 2016 season, and then in 2017 he regressed across the board - that's why he wasn't picked #1 overall. He went from being the preseason favorite to win the heisman to not being in the top 10 finalists.

Anyone who thinks Daniel Jones is Andrew Luck is foolish, as is anyone who thinks the same about Darnold. They both entered the NFL with flawed resumes, which is why neither went #1 overall.



I think a theme of this thread is that people keep arguing against strawmen that they are creating. Like, nobody said either of these guys were Andrew Luck unless I missed that somewhere. Andrew Luck was a 90-level prospect. Nobody since Peyton Manning in 1998 before or anyone after was as heralded a prospect as Andrew Luck.

If anyone does believe that Jones or Darnold is on that level, they are wrong, but again, who is saying this?


My post was responding to franchiseqb's 12:38 post.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
mavric : 5/7/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14435226 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14435199 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14435030 mavric said:


Quote:


In comment 14434792 BSIMatt said:quote:

1. He's got prototype size
2. He's got a good arm. Arm strength is not an issue. It is not "elite", nor is it a liability.
3. He is a good athlete (nearly identical to QB Josh Allen)
4. He is tough and delivers catchable passes from the pocket while taking a beating.
5. By all accounts he's got the work ethic/coaching/mechanics to further develop

I don't think he's a better prospect than Darnold, and I also don't think Darnold is a vastly superior QB prospect - at least not in terms of the perceived gap you see by the media/fan reactions.

Size, arm, mobility, toughness, work ethic, pro-caliber mechanics/footwork ... I don't know what else you'd want in a young QB to develop.

Hopefully both develop accordingly and both fan bases are pleased. Thank you to all who actually provided insight/perspective on the thread topic - I never really accounted for the fact Darnold's been in the spotlight a lot longer (top recruit, USC, etc.) which would certainly lend to more notoriety/hype/belief he's a "franchise QB" while most people never heard of Daniel Jones or even knew Duke played football still. Sirk - ( New Window )


Add to the list, "cranial", "ridiculously smart", "can read a defense and change in defense in less than a second", etc. His wonderlic score was 37 compared to QB's Haskins (25), Murray (20), Drew Lock (26) in this year's draft.

And believe it or not, football IQ and the ability to process defenses in the blink of an eye is arguably one of the most important traits in a franchise type QB
There weren't many banging the table for Darnold  
JonC : 5/7/2019 1:08 pm : link
He was my choice at #2 but I was also of the opinion he wasn't sure-fire blue chip QB prospect either.

Time will tell on Jones, but we ran into two drafts that really didn't have the blue chip QB prospects available to make the decision a simple one.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
Greg from LI : 5/7/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14435426 mavric said:
Quote:
Add to the list, "cranial", "ridiculously smart", "can read a defense and change in defense in less than a second", etc. His wonderlic score was 37 compared to QB's Haskins (25), Murray (20), Drew Lock (26) in this year's draft.

And believe it or not, football IQ and the ability to process defenses in the blink of an eye is arguably one of the most important traits in a franchise type QB

Ummmm, those things actually are not considered strengths of his, even by scouts who are favorably disposed to him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 1:21 pm : link
In comment 14435433 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14435426 mavric said:


Quote:


Add to the list, "cranial", "ridiculously smart", "can read a defense and change in defense in less than a second", etc. His wonderlic score was 37 compared to QB's Haskins (25), Murray (20), Drew Lock (26) in this year's draft.

And believe it or not, football IQ and the ability to process defenses in the blink of an eye is arguably one of the most important traits in a franchise type QB


Ummmm, those things actually are not considered strengths of his, even by scouts who are favorably disposed to him.

indeed. he is regarded as well-coached and takes well to coaching and usually makes good decisions pre-snap, but is said to have trouble seeing the field after his first read. Folks building him up may be in for a rude awakening. The kid has potential but may need years to become what they think he is right now.
RE: RE: RE: u do realize Darnold's 2017 was universally considered disappointing?  
allstarjim : 5/7/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14435422 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14435412 allstarjim said:


Quote:


In comment 14435401 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


he was hyped up as the next the next star QB after his 2016 season, and then in 2017 he regressed across the board - that's why he wasn't picked #1 overall. He went from being the preseason favorite to win the heisman to not being in the top 10 finalists.

Anyone who thinks Daniel Jones is Andrew Luck is foolish, as is anyone who thinks the same about Darnold. They both entered the NFL with flawed resumes, which is why neither went #1 overall.



I think a theme of this thread is that people keep arguing against strawmen that they are creating. Like, nobody said either of these guys were Andrew Luck unless I missed that somewhere. Andrew Luck was a 90-level prospect. Nobody since Peyton Manning in 1998 before or anyone after was as heralded a prospect as Andrew Luck.

If anyone does believe that Jones or Darnold is on that level, they are wrong, but again, who is saying this?



My post was responding to franchiseqb's 12:38 post.


OK, gotcha...my bad.
since others keep bringing up Sy  
Greg from LI : 5/7/2019 1:30 pm : link
Here's what he had to say about Jones' ability to read plays as they're happening:

Quote:
He didnít see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles.... Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isnít a quick mind here, he doesnít see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.
RE: since others keep bringing up Sy  
Johnny5 : 5/7/2019 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14435454 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Here's what he had to say about Jones' ability to read plays as they're happening:



Quote:


He didnít see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles.... Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isnít a quick mind here, he doesnít see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.


Greg you would be crapping on whatever Qb they took whenever... lol
Any legitimate criticism of Jones whatsoever = "crapping on"?  
Greg from LI : 5/7/2019 1:40 pm : link
Is there any possible acceptable response other than pom-pom waving?
I remember there being plenty of  
Dnew15 : 5/7/2019 1:43 pm : link
BBIers banging the table for Darnold...there were daily threads as long as this one about Darnold (or one of the other QBs Rosen/Mayfield/Allen) or SB.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Darnold turned around a USC program that was garbage  
twostepgiants : 5/7/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14435426 mavric said:
Quote:
In comment 14435226 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14435199 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14435030 mavric said:


Quote:


In comment 14434792 BSIMatt said:quote:

1. He's got prototype size
2. He's got a good arm. Arm strength is not an issue. It is not "elite", nor is it a liability.
3. He is a good athlete (nearly identical to QB Josh Allen)
4. He is tough and delivers catchable passes from the pocket while taking a beating.
5. By all accounts he's got the work ethic/coaching/mechanics to further develop

I don't think he's a better prospect than Darnold, and I also don't think Darnold is a vastly superior QB prospect - at least not in terms of the perceived gap you see by the media/fan reactions.

Size, arm, mobility, toughness, work ethic, pro-caliber mechanics/footwork ... I don't know what else you'd want in a young QB to develop.

Hopefully both develop accordingly and both fan bases are pleased. Thank you to all who actually provided insight/perspective on the thread topic - I never really accounted for the fact Darnold's been in the spotlight a lot longer (top recruit, USC, etc.) which would certainly lend to more notoriety/hype/belief he's a "franchise QB" while most people never heard of Daniel Jones or even knew Duke played football still. Sirk - ( New Window )



Add to the list, "cranial", "ridiculously smart", "can read a defense and change in defense in less than a second", etc. His wonderlic score was 37 compared to QB's Haskins (25), Murray (20), Drew Lock (26) in this year's draft.

And believe it or not, football IQ and the ability to process defenses in the blink of an eye is arguably one of the most important traits in a franchise type QB


Josh Allen the QB had a 37 wonderlic, Ryan Fitzpatrick scored a 48! Gabbert a 42. Etc etc Itís not the end all be all
RE: since others keep bringing up Sy  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 1:50 pm : link
In comment 14435454 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Here's what he had to say about Jones' ability to read plays as they're happening:



Quote:


He didnít see things well and his decisions were too inconsistent. There just seemed to be a lack of a true feel for the pocket, the defense, and angles.... Jones has enough arm strength, touch, and athletic ability. But there isnít a quick mind here, he doesnít see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based.



So nothing wrong with him physically, things correctable with film study / learning behind Eli?
I think last year's BBI QB fans were pretty much split  
Bill L : 5/7/2019 1:51 pm : link
between Rosen and Darnold. Some outside votes for Allen, very few for Mayfield or Jackson. Almost all of them fell into the "take a QB, any QB" category vs those wanting Barkley.

How about this one for a comparison, although given our cap space I don't think it would be practical....

Jones + Barkley vs Darnold plus Laveon Bell. (Me, I'm not talking Bell no matter the cost but chips cold have fallen this way, I suppose). Then you can do Quinnen vs Josh Allen.

Regardless, that's pretty mcu an even match-up all the way through, IMO.
RE: Any legitimate criticism of Jones whatsoever =  
Johnny5 : 5/7/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14435465 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Is there any possible acceptable response other than pom-pom waving?

lol relax dood I'm just bustin on ya because you are a Negative Noonan... lol
you think film study is going to speed up his processing time  
Greg from LI : 5/7/2019 2:01 pm : link
dramatically? Isn't one of the selling points on him that he's been learning from David Cutcliffe for four years and thus is the most pro-ready QB in the draft? In my mind, one of the caveats to drafting Jones was the possibility that, due to playing for a top QB developer like Cutcliffe in college, he doesn't have a ton of remaining refinements to make compared to less refined college QBs. His mechanics and footwork are already up to NFL standards.
So I guess that equation would be  
Dnew15 : 5/7/2019 2:02 pm : link
Darnold + Bell - Eli
RE: you think film study is going to speed up his processing time  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14435496 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
dramatically? Isn't one of the selling points on him that he's been learning from David Cutcliffe for four years and thus is the most pro-ready QB in the draft? In my mind, one of the caveats to drafting Jones was the possibility that, due to playing for a top QB developer like Cutcliffe in college, he doesn't have a ton of remaining refinements to make compared to less refined college QBs. His mechanics and footwork are already up to NFL standards.

Jones is not the most pro ready QB in this draft. Where did you read that? He has some nice pro traits but that's not the same as pro ready. Murray is the most pro ready, by far.
RE: RE: you think film study is going to speed up his processing time  
Thegratefulhead : 5/7/2019 2:34 pm : link
In comment 14435514 FranchiseQB said:
Quote:
In comment 14435496 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


dramatically? Isn't one of the selling points on him that he's been learning from David Cutcliffe for four years and thus is the most pro-ready QB in the draft? In my mind, one of the caveats to drafting Jones was the possibility that, due to playing for a top QB developer like Cutcliffe in college, he doesn't have a ton of remaining refinements to make compared to less refined college QBs. His mechanics and footwork are already up to NFL standards.


Jones is not the most pro ready QB in this draft. Where did you read that? He has some nice pro traits but that's not the same as pro ready. Murray is the most pro ready, by far.
Where did you read that? No, My guy is the most pro ready! lol?

Look, D Jones faced pressure, a lot of it. He stood in there and delivered the ball. Murray will run away from it. Both ways can work. I think Jones is better fit for Shurmur and Murray is a better fit for Kingsbury. Some teams did not have a first round grade on either. Arizona is lauded for Murray's fit yet the Giants are criticized for Jones even though he is a perfect fit for Shurmur. It is kind of hypocritical don't you think?
RE: RE: RE: you think film study is going to speed up his processing time  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14435531 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14435514 FranchiseQB said:


Quote:


In comment 14435496 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


dramatically? Isn't one of the selling points on him that he's been learning from David Cutcliffe for four years and thus is the most pro-ready QB in the draft? In my mind, one of the caveats to drafting Jones was the possibility that, due to playing for a top QB developer like Cutcliffe in college, he doesn't have a ton of remaining refinements to make compared to less refined college QBs. His mechanics and footwork are already up to NFL standards.


Jones is not the most pro ready QB in this draft. Where did you read that? He has some nice pro traits but that's not the same as pro ready. Murray is the most pro ready, by far.

Where did you read that? No, My guy is the most pro ready! lol?

Look, D Jones faced pressure, a lot of it. He stood in there and delivered the ball. Murray will run away from it. Both ways can work. I think Jones is better fit for Shurmur and Murray is a better fit for Kingsbury. Some teams did not have a first round grade on either. Arizona is lauded for Murray's fit yet the Giants are criticized for Jones even though he is a perfect fit for Shurmur. It is kind of hypocritical don't you think?

This is crazy. Murray is not my guy. I don't care about Murray, to be honest. I'm jut being objective. Murray is stellar in the pocket, he's not a run first QB. You are right that Murray is the best fit for the Kingsbury system. But he is also the better fit for the Shurmur system. He is the better fit for all the systems because right now he is the best QB from the 2019 class, and it is not close. Why can't we be honest about this? Jones is not better for the Giants because we picked him. This is getting silly.
Murray is better than Jones  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 2:48 pm : link
If Murray was over 6 feet tall heíd be considered the best QB prospect in a long time
RE: Murray is better than Jones  
FranchiseQB : 5/7/2019 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14435550 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
If Murray was over 6 feet tall heíd be considered the best QB prospect in a long time

yes! which is not to say that one day Daniel Jones won't develop into an elite Super Bowl winning QB while Murray becomes a bust. It could happen. But right now these two prospects are not close.
One thing regarding processing time  
BSIMatt : 5/7/2019 3:10 pm : link
I think if your receivers cleanly win their matchups that could definitely help processing time. If receivers are struggling to get open that could slow processing time. The thing with something like this is we aren't in the Duke system, we aren't in Jones head...if someone is trying to objectively determine what is causing a delay in the ball coming out while watching film there are a lot of variables in play and slow processing time could be one explanation, but there are certainly others. I think that's something that is difficult to determine unless you've played or coached quarterbacks, or are the actual offensive coach himself.
RE: Murray is better than Jones  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/7/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14435550 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
If Murray was over 6 feet tall heíd be considered the best QB prospect in a long time


And yet, he isn't 6 feet tall, so any projections about how he'll perform as a pro are unknown right now.

Murray is a better RB prospect than Jones. Jones is a better TE prospect than Murray. Neither of which matters.
RE: One thing regarding processing time  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14435589 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
I think if your receivers cleanly win their matchups that could definitely help processing time. If receivers are struggling to get open that could slow processing time. The thing with something like this is we aren't in the Duke system, we aren't in Jones head...if someone is trying to objectively determine what is causing a delay in the ball coming out while watching film there are a lot of variables in play and slow processing time could be one explanation, but there are certainly others. I think that's something that is difficult to determine unless you've played or coached quarterbacks, or are the actual offensive coach himself.


His ability to hang in the pocket and deliver catchable passes with free rushers baring down + his wonderlic + his Duke education has me thinking mental processing isnít a weakness

Not sure how they quantify QB processing speed, but I imagine itís a hell of lot easier to do when your OL blocks and your WRs get separation ... something he rarely saw simultaneously
RE: RE: Murray is better than Jones  
Thegratefulhead : 5/7/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14435596 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14435550 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


If Murray was over 6 feet tall heíd be considered the best QB prospect in a long time



And yet, he isn't 6 feet tall, so any projections about how he'll perform as a pro are unknown right now.

Murray is a better RB prospect than Jones. Jones is a better TE prospect than Murray. Neither of which matters.
TY Size matters, Murray is 5'10" That alone pushed him down some team's boards. Shurmur's system is more in the pocket than Kingsbury's. I have to believe Murray is going to face some difficulty throwing from a NFL pocket when pressured and the ends maintain containment. In that spot a 6'5" passer who isn't afraid to get hit might do better than 1 that is 5'10"
Darnold and Jones are tall  
GothamGiants : 5/7/2019 3:30 pm : link
Letís talk about them
RE: Darnold and Jones are tall  
Thegratefulhead : 5/7/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14435620 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
Letís talk about them
I prefer Jones to Darnold, I am not a fan of Darnold. Do not like his delivery or propensity to turn the ball over. Jones makes better decisions.
One of the downsides to be soing coached up  
twostepgiants : 5/7/2019 4:01 pm : link
Is that this may be as good as he gets...
RE: One of the downsides to be soing coached up  
Johnny5 : 5/7/2019 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14435669 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
Is that this may be as good as he gets...

Umm, yeah. Me personally, I'll wait, watch. and let it play out. And then decide.
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