Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Gettleman /Cap Value /Vernon,Collins,Snacks,Jenkins and OBJ

Breaker : 5/11/2019 7:05 am
Vernon, Collins, Snacks vs Jenkins. And then OBJ.

If you have a bad team and no salary cap space it means your talent evaluation at all levels was poor. If you believe you are a better talent evaluator than your predecessor then you have to reset the roster.

Listen to DG and the word repeated so often is "Value". His entire frame of reference is the salary cap. Jumps out at you every time he talks.

Vernon very straight forward. Good player when healthy but hurt too often and carries a $19MM price tag. Take the dead cap hit and move on. Able to swap him for a near pro bowl guard at $9MM lower cap hit. A real brawler with solid technique in area of great need.

Collins most of us loved. Warrior, great tackler, played hurt etc. When drafted the rap was he was an in the box safety. Proved true over time but still a solid player. Don't make the pro bowl being shitty. But not at that salary cap hit he was going to get. Can't pay a one dimensional safety $13MM. Was offered a late third round pick by KC at trading deadline for the 2019 draft. Instead we should get a third round compensatory in 2020 draft. Yes one year difference but not going to kill DG on that. Bottom line he didn't want to give Collins mega contract and didn't want to franchise him and have a grumbling player.

Snacks we loved as well. However,had an escalating cap value hit within his contract combined with deteriorating knees. Was playing 50% of snaps towards mid season? Will see with Lawrence. Can't expect prime Snacks level performance but should be very solid at half the cap hit. Younger, healthy and cost controlled for at least four years. Instant starter. Great attitude.

Jenkins still playing solidly and they like his competitiveness. Cornerbacks are fourth highest valued positions in football after QB, DE, OT on average. As long as he's playing solid they keep him. But at a $14.8MM cap hit they better be right. Will see but they are talking like he is staying. Cap savings by cutting him I believe in $7MM range but he's the only proven top CB they have. They DO have to field a respectable team and show improvement.

OBJ. Not even going to get into it. I like the move just based on I don't think I want my team allocating $19 million a year to a WR position. Period. Don't think any recent Super Bowl winner had a WR taking up that percentage of cap space. Can't be a coincidence. Value received in the trade is undeniable.

DG has to balance his eye for value with keeping the team and fans not thinking it's all dollars and cents. But in a salary cap league there is no other way to have sustained success. Allows you to build a deep roster and have depth. Starts with good talent evaluation..

Good luck DG. Don't pay attention to the jackals. If you listen some of them are actually getting a clue and getting informed on what you are doing.



I知 all in on DG and agree wholeheartedly with your post  
Earl the goat : 5/11/2019 7:17 am : link
Actually I知 all in favor on having a less than mediocre year and taking advantage of the 75 million in cap space in 2020 and another big draft class
As a long time suffering Giants fan from the 70s I have plenty of patience
Some fool will probably want to add Eli to your list ...  
Spider56 : 5/11/2019 7:27 am : link
But not me ...except for the Boston accent, I知 all in on DG We are making the playoffs this year ... keep the faith.
Proof will be played out  
George from PA : 5/11/2019 7:28 am : link
But any fan that go beyond the headline, sees the improvements....

Best OL, DL and special teams in a decade.

Possibly, best RB and DBs ever

Solid developmental options at TEs, WRs and QB.

LBers is probably weakest unit but several intriguing options.



Very good post.  
Blue21 : 5/11/2019 7:44 am : link
.
I like what DG is doing  
Rjanyg : 5/11/2019 7:56 am : link
For the most part.

I really thing our pass rush and our pass protection are my largest concerns.
Ah, yes. Some guys that get it.  
Red Dog : 5/11/2019 8:01 am : link
A pleasant change from the incessant whining and uninformed opinions of casual fans, beat writers who don't know what they are talking about and can't even get the facts straight sometimes, and ESPam douche bags.

Even if I didn't totally agree with what he did in this year's draft, I am totally all in with DG too. It's great to have an effective GM again.
Reality is going to be a bitter pill  
WillieYoung : 5/11/2019 8:08 am : link
Remember how improved we were going to be last year?
accept  
giantfan2000 : 5/11/2019 8:15 am : link
you have an aging medicare QB who is sucking up 23 million in salary cap
where is the value in that ?
Very very  
Joey in VA : 5/11/2019 8:55 am : link
Well put.
Agree with the reasoning  
Bill2 : 5/11/2019 9:01 am : link
The glaring items which needs to be further examined is Jenkins and Eli.

My opinion, ( and there are reasons to second guess where I came out on these issues) is that when it comes to a QB...you have the one you have until you actually have one at performance to dollar.

Eli was an inherited sunk cost and there was not another one on the roster. Even now, Jones is not proven at even backup. Yes there are desperate teams who hand over the reins and hope. If you dont have to..you dont. ( Deliberately tanking and big risks works in the minds of amateur GMs and fantasy agitator minds).

The mistake on Eli was made when they adopted a scheme under MacAdoo and then did not match the QB and the OL. Only way to get max value for Eli was draft a Qb three years ago and trade him two years ago. The best option was to not give him a long term contract once past his logical prime. But with no talent they wanted QB stability.

On Eli the ship has sailed. there is no way to recoup value relative to performance other than playing him until the OL gets better and there is actually a proven enough risk adjusted chance at a positive dollar to performance ratio.
That's 2020.

Ditto Jenkins. The question is not if, but when.

Imo, Jenkins is worth a lot more if our CBs are rapid learners and not injured. For a contending team with a CB injury late in the season, Jenkins is worth a 2 to 3.


In general, in a league with 32 competitors, someone will overpay for a good performing asset eventually. Until there are better performing dollar to performance options on the roster risk to save dollars is foolish. Why? There is no value to unspent cap. None. Zero. Zilch.

Notice its the hate the Fo posters who want to reduce the cap right now without better return. Mara messed up so let him have the money as soon as we can???
Good Post.  
Klaatu : 5/11/2019 10:23 am : link
One of Gettleman's declared goals was to put the team's financial house in order. That wasn't going to be easy or painless, and some of his moves would be downright unpopular with the fans and the press, but it absolutely had to be done.
RE: Reality is going to be a bitter pill  
Toth029 : 5/11/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14439659 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
Remember how improved we were going to be last year?

They look much better last year, problems notwithstanding.
Bill2  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/11/2019 10:41 am : link
Unspent cap rolls over. It actually makes sense to dump as much cap as possible in non contending years so you can gear up when the team is making a run.
RE: accept  
Bill L : 5/11/2019 10:42 am : link
In comment 14439661 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
you have an aging medicare QB who is sucking up 23 million in salary cap
where is the value in that ?


It pretty much goes without saying, although that did not deter you, that if you are on Medicare, you are aging. Actually, it should be evident to anyone, again you notwithstanding, that anyone and everyone is aging. Pretty much constantly. Also, I believe the earliest you can join Medicare is when you are 65. You can check a public roster for the Giants where birth dates of players are listed, and I feel like you値l find that none of our QB痴 are 65 or older. To give you some credit, you may be mistaking Medicaid for Medicare, where ages are less material. However, your point about 23 million should have given you a clue that Medicaid would also not apply since it is income dependent.

Or maybe you were just ineffectively trying to be witty?
RE: accept  
GothamGiants : 5/11/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14439661 giantfan2000 said:
Quote:
you have an aging medicare QB who is sucking up 23 million in salary cap
where is the value in that ?


Be careful, some get very upset at this reality check ...

Anthony Barr @ OLB, Ja/Wuan James @ RT ... This would be a reality without this ridiculous contract on the books based on their 2019 cap hits

Eli, Golden, Wheeler or Jones, Barr, and James ... tough call there.
RE: RE: accept  
GothamGiants : 5/11/2019 10:58 am : link
In comment 14439734 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14439661 giantfan2000 said:


Quote:


you have an aging medicare QB who is sucking up 23 million in salary cap
where is the value in that ?



It pretty much goes without saying, although that did not deter you, that if you are on Medicare, you are aging. Actually, it should be evident to anyone, again you notwithstanding, that anyone and everyone is aging. Pretty much constantly. Also, I believe the earliest you can join Medicare is when you are 65. You can check a public roster for the Giants where birth dates of players are listed, and I feel like you値l find that none of our QB痴 are 65 or older. To give you some credit, you may be mistaking Medicaid for Medicare, where ages are less material. However, your point about 23 million should have given you a clue that Medicaid would also not apply since it is income dependent.

Or maybe you were just ineffectively trying to be witty?


I知 going to assume he meant 杜ediocre instead of Medicare ... but i see we致e resorted to detailed break downs of national health programs to justify this waste of cap space

At least we have Eli ... a mediocre at best QB who needs everything around him to improve in order to be effective but makes it impossible to spend money elsewhere.

Anthony Barr and Ja蜘uan James, 2 significant upgrades at the biggest holes on the team, would be realistic options if it weren稚 for this 溺edicaid QB and his absurd cap hit.
Zeke  
Bill2 : 5/11/2019 11:10 am : link
Yes. Thank you. Sorry for mis-informing the debate.

imo, Jenkins should be dropped if the new draftees live up to their potential unless he has a good year and the team shows enough in the last 6 games to see a better 2020 with him versus without. Its not a good idea to go into a draft "needing" any of the premium positions ( QB/DE/OT/CB).

And creating cap room by dropping Jenkins only to have to overpay the few good DBs that hit FE can be a fools chase.



Think he depends on Abrams, a lot, on cap and value matters.  
TMS : 5/11/2019 11:37 am : link
A real cap and contract guru. One of the best. DGs talent evaluation is his forte and that is what we needed desperately these last bad years. Agree with DG this team has turned the corner.
After 2017 the need to rebuild was unanimous & that's what DG has done  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2019 11:40 am : link
People acted like 2018 was a competitive year bc he didn't pick a QB, but really it was an evaluation year of Reese's key pieces. Maybe Mcadoo and an awful OL held the team back? Maybe Apple or Flowers needed a fresh slate? The eval is in - full tear down. DG has now moved every inherited veteran with trade value other than Jackrabbit and he'll probably be for sale at the trade deadline. That's what a rebuild is - get as many young assets as possible with veteran placeholders everywhere else to support.

Eli is the biggest red herring in sports. He has no trade value, he's not expensive, and we have no better option at QB. As Bill said, you keep your QB until you have another one - dumping just to dump doesn't accomplish anything. And that's all aside from the fact that he also happened to be the best QB in franchise history and a consummate pro in the locker room.

There's nothing wrong with trying to win while turning the roster over as long as you don't compromise the future, and he hasn't. In fact "full tanking" as a strategy has been disproven as effective in just about every sport. Hard to build a winning foundation if you're not trying to win.
...  
christian : 5/11/2019 11:55 am : link
Jenoris Jenkins would need to have a come back player of the year type performance to justify his cost.

He's the 4th most expensive corner this year in the league, and he was arguably the worst regular starting corner in the NFL.

The atrociousness of his play is hard to express.

Frankly it would be hard for a rookie to match how bad he was last year.
RE: Reality is going to be a bitter pill  
djm : 5/11/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14439659 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
Remember how improved we were going to be last year?


And it showed last year. They scored over 100 more points and generally competed rather admirably over the second half of the season. 2018 compared to 2017 was better.

But hey, who痴 keeping track.
RE: ...  
GothamGiants : 5/11/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14439772 christian said:
Quote:
Jenoris Jenkins would need to have a come back player of the year type performance to justify his cost.

He's the 4th most expensive corner this year in the league, and he was arguably the worst regular starting corner in the NFL.

The atrociousness of his play is hard to express.

Frankly it would be hard for a rookie to match how bad he was last year.


He won稚 be on the roster in 2020, I wouldn稚 mind cutting him for more space to sign a guy like Danny Shelton
- Build the trenches, stop the run, and have some legit depth to rotate players - keeping them fresh/healthy/effective.

Cutting him this year saves 7m, next year 11m.
Good post but  
hitdog42 : 5/11/2019 12:18 pm : link
You are omitting the qb pay/performance discussion
And where does signing Golden Tate come into the resource allocation discussion. Overpaying for a solid vet when you are rebuilding. If you are going with this narrative you can稚 cherry pick the points you want to discuss with it.
RE: Good post but  
Eric on Li : 5/11/2019 12:20 pm : link
In comment 14439790 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
You are omitting the qb pay/performance discussion
And where does signing Golden Tate come into the resource allocation discussion. Overpaying for a solid vet when you are rebuilding. If you are going with this narrative you can稚 cherry pick the points you want to discuss with it.


I haven't seen many analyze that Tate was an overpay and they have plenty of cap room going forward so doesn't it make sense to have a few competent weapons whenever Jones takes over?
RE: Zeke  
OntheRoad : 5/11/2019 12:34 pm : link
In comment 14439746 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Yes. Thank you. Sorry for mis-informing the debate.

imo, Jenkins should be dropped if the new draftees live up to their potential unless he has a good year and the team shows enough in the last 6 games to see a better 2020 with him versus without. Its not a good idea to go into a draft "needing" any of the premium positions ( QB/DE/OT/CB).

And creating cap room by dropping Jenkins only to have to overpay the few good DBs that hit FE can be a fools chase.


I think the best use of Jenkins is for him to tutor the young players during camp and preseason.

Just before the season starts, there are always teams desperate for a corner. I believe one of those teams could be persuaded to trade a decent offensive lineman for a top corner.
100% behind getting rid of high paid  
St. Jimmy : 5/11/2019 12:54 pm : link
veteran contracts. The team is not winning a Superbowl with those guys. That seems like a no brainers if you look at the team objectively over the last 2 seasons. Ultimately, replacing those guys will be the test of Gettleman. The team needs to be primed to win a Superbowl two years from now. By that, I mean winning the division or ready to consistently make the playoffs. The goal should be recreating the results 2005 through 2008. Team needs to be a top 10 consistently for an extended period.
RE: RE: RE: accept  
Bill L : 5/11/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14439742 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14439734 Bill L said:


Quote:


In comment 14439661 giantfan2000 said:


Quote:


you have an aging medicare QB who is sucking up 23 million in salary cap
where is the value in that ?



It pretty much goes without saying, although that did not deter you, that if you are on Medicare, you are aging. Actually, it should be evident to anyone, again you notwithstanding, that anyone and everyone is aging. Pretty much constantly. Also, I believe the earliest you can join Medicare is when you are 65. You can check a public roster for the Giants where birth dates of players are listed, and I feel like you値l find that none of our QB痴 are 65 or older. To give you some credit, you may be mistaking Medicaid for Medicare, where ages are less material. However, your point about 23 million should have given you a clue that Medicaid would also not apply since it is income dependent.

Or maybe you were just ineffectively trying to be witty?



I知 going to assume he meant 杜ediocre instead of Medicare ... but i see we致e resorted to detailed break downs of national health programs to justify this waste of cap space

At least we have Eli ... a mediocre at best QB who needs everything around him to improve in order to be effective but makes it impossible to spend money elsewhere.

Anthony Barr and Ja蜘uan James, 2 significant upgrades at the biggest holes on the team, would be realistic options if it weren稚 for this 溺edicaid QB and his absurd cap hit.

In truth, there is no evidence whatsoever that *any* of those people would be Giants if not for Eli. In fact, the fact that they have several contracts that could be restructured to find funds for them suggests that Eli has nothing to do with not signing anyone.

But in the main, Eli has zero to do with the OP and thread topic. It痴 only for the infantile obsessed minds to rope him into it and place blame for Reese signing other players to big contracts.
Eli  
PaulN : 5/11/2019 4:53 pm : link
Will have anther good season only now with most of Reese's incompetent roster gone he will have a winning team also.
Short of an all-pro season Jenkins is gone after this year.  
justafan : 5/11/2019 5:41 pm : link
We have a ton of young guys at corner. No need to keep Jenkins after this year, dead cap will only be 3.5 million so they'll save about 10 million. With Manning off the books (short of an all pro SB season) throw in another 17 million.

If the young guys play well, a long with contributions from next years draft, we can really round out the edges with that space.
RE: Good post but  
Breaker : 5/12/2019 7:29 am : link
In comment 14439790 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
You are omitting the qb pay/performance discussion
And where does signing Golden Tate come into the resource allocation discussion. Overpaying for a solid vet when you are rebuilding. If you are going with this narrative you can稚 cherry pick the points you want to discuss with it.


I'm not against Tate signing for two reasons. How much was the overpay at $8 million when Shepard gets $10 million? Yes he's older but is rarely hurt and is a solid player. My God, Bobby Hart got $7MM from the Bengals. Its the effect of increasing salary cap every year due to increasing revenues which is set at about 51% for the players. Tate finds a way to be effective when in the right system.

Second, rebuilding doesn't mean you don't sign solid players throughout the course of the rebuild if the player is the right fit and can be effective in your system. DG is allowed to take some calculated risks.
RE: RE: Good post but  
Breaker : 5/12/2019 7:54 am : link
In comment 14440411 Breaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14439790 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


You are omitting the qb pay/performance discussion
And where does signing Golden Tate come into the resource allocation discussion. Overpaying for a solid vet when you are rebuilding. If you are going with this narrative you can稚 cherry pick the points you want to discuss with it.



I'm not against Tate signing for two reasons. How much was the overpay at $8 million when Shepard gets $10 million? Yes he's older but is rarely hurt and is a solid player. My God, Bobby Hart got $7MM from the Bengals. Its the effect of increasing salary cap every year due to increasing revenues which is set at about 51% for the players. Tate finds a way to be effective when in the right system.

Second, rebuilding doesn't mean you don't sign solid players throughout the course of the rebuild if the player is the right fit and can be effective in your system. DG is allowed to take some calculated risks.


Sorry for omitting QB angle. I agree with Bill2 reply and thought that had been hashed out prior. Only my opinion on this stuff
I知 beginning to wonder if term limits for GMs might be a good idea.  
Big Blue Blogger : 5/12/2019 8:01 am : link
Say what you will about Jerry Reese; he cleared out dead wood in 2007, added a few key pieces and helped the team get to the top. Gettleman inherited a much weaker core; he also had more room for maneuver, including his own choice of coaches. In any case, while the differences are obvious, they both did what needed to be done.
RE: Reality is going to be a bitter pill  
NYG007 : 5/13/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14439659 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
Remember how improved we were going to be last year?


Seriously? We competed the back 8 games of our schedule, could have EASILY went 7-1 if our D was even remotely NFL caliber.

Since then, we vastly improved the OL. CB's, Safeties and DL. Regardless of record, we will be light years better than last seasons roster.
Tate is really 11.5 per year  
ron mexico : 5/13/2019 10:27 am : link
not 8

RE: Tate is really 11.5 per year  
GothamGiants : 5/13/2019 12:52 pm : link
In comment 14441490 ron mexico said:
Quote:
not 8


He値l be cut in 2021, when they can save 6M.

It痴 a 2 year deal with 18M cap hit.
Tate - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Tate is really 11.5 per year  
ron mexico : 5/13/2019 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14441753 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14441490 ron mexico said:


Quote:


not 8




He値l be cut in 2021, when they can save 6M.

It痴 a 2 year deal with 18M cap hit. Tate - ( New Window )


No - its a two year deal with a 23mm cap hit. says so in the link you provided
kind of funny how many Gettleman-slobbering posts are being started  
Greg from LI : 5/13/2019 12:57 pm : link
by people who registered in the past couple of months.
Dave Te suggested Jenkins could be cut sometime this summer  
Go Terps : 5/13/2019 1:01 pm : link
I hope he's right.
RE: RE: RE: Tate is really 11.5 per year  
GothamGiants : 5/13/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14441756 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14441753 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14441490 ron mexico said:


Quote:


not 8




He値l be cut in 2021, when they can save 6M.

It痴 a 2 year deal with 18M cap hit. Tate - ( New Window )



No - its a two year deal with a 23mm cap hit. says so in the link you provided


Sorry meant 18M cap hit(s)
if he only plays two years  
ron mexico : 5/13/2019 1:10 pm : link
there will be a 23 mil cap hit

If he plays three years, there will be a 31.5 mil cap hit

He would have to play out the full deal to realize the AAV of 9.375 mil
RE: Think he depends on Abrams, a lot, on cap and value matters.  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/13/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14439759 TMS said:
Quote:
A real cap and contract guru. One of the best. DGs talent evaluation is his forte and that is what we needed desperately these last bad years. Agree with DG this team has turned the corner.

You don't have the kind of dead money that the Giants are carrying right now with "a real cap and contract guru." Abrams is decent at what he does, but hardly good enough to create some sort of competitive advantage relative to his counterparts on every other team in the league. He's good, but definitely not "one of the best." If anything, he's somewhat overrated (as proven by your post).
at what point  
Platos : 5/13/2019 1:59 pm : link
would cutting Eli this offseason some how give us SO much cap space to sign these other guys?

especially considering Barr wanted to stay in Minnie?
RE: kind of funny how many Gettleman-slobbering posts are being started  
Breaker : 5/19/2019 7:42 am : link
In comment 14441758 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
by people who registered in the past couple of months.


Reader since Shockey days when first registered and then registered again to resume posting. First time i feel like giants are headed in right direction in long time. Feel like they are returning to philosophy that won them four super bowls. Can't be more excited to see a GM focus on building a more physical and balanced team while getting rid of the divas and thugs
What 鍍hugs are you referring to?  
yatqb : 5/19/2019 9:43 am : link
I don稚 recall any criminal behavior by guys we parted ways with.

It痴 so easy for white guys to throw around the thug descriptor for any young black guys.
Yes  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/19/2019 10:10 am : link
who are the "thugs" you speak of? Could you give an example of the behavior that caused you to label them thugs?
RE: Yes  
Breaker : 5/19/2019 7:55 pm : link
In comment 14448576 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
who are the "thugs" you speak of? Could you give an example of the behavior that caused you to label them thugs?


Have sat behind the Giants bench in the stands for the last five years two immediately come to mind in Bobby Hart and Eli Apple. On more than one occasion i heard both of them at different times threaten to go into the stands and kick some fans ass for simply yelling and booing at them. No foul language on the fans part either. Nice
RE: Agree with the reasoning  
BMac : 5/19/2019 8:38 pm : link
In comment 14439684 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Eli was an inherited sunk cost and there was not another one on the roster. Even now, Jones is not proven at even backup. Yes there are desperate teams who hand over the reins and hope. If you dont have to..you dont. ( Deliberately tanking and big risks works in the minds of amateur GMs and fantasy agitator minds).

The mistake on Eli was made when they adopted a scheme under MacAdoo and then did not match the QB and the OL. Only way to get max value for Eli was draft a Qb three years ago and trade him two years ago. The best option was to not give him a long term contract once past his logical prime. But with no talent they wanted QB stability.



Let's not forget that Eli's contract has a no trade clause.
DG has a plan  
SGMen : 5/19/2019 8:53 pm : link
We have more talent this year than when he took over.

We just have to stay healthy through camp and start the season strong, with wins, despite having a fairly "high turnover" roster.

Also, not only do our draft picks have to work out but I think we could use a break and get some gems in the rough via our UDFA signings.

I am so looking forward to OTA's this week and see the progress.
Back to the Corner