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NFT: Game of Thrones season 8 episode 5

eli4life : 5/12/2019 10:21 am
First of all happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers and hell even the mother f@& $?3?s on here.

Not making the same mistake like last week this will be the only place I’ll be online untill after it airs. Well maybe some golf clash. I’m sure leaks will be out there as the episode draws closer.

Battle of Mother’s Day the mother of dragons vs “pregnant “ Cersei. Don’t think more than half the episode will be battle but could be epic. I think the death toll will be high this episode since most everyone somehow survived the BoW. Maybe a little foreshadowing but the episode Tywin died was on Father’s Day could his daughter have the same fate tonight?
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We got 5bowls over here claiming that genetics doesn't exist  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/16/2019 12:08 pm : link
it's insanity. The whole point of sleeping outside of your gene pool is so we don't keep passing down and magnifying the same genes. No wonder he loves the Targs as they clearly don't believe in that either.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Jon was resurrected for a purpose  
PatersonPlank : 5/16/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14446110 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
In comment 14446104 Motley Two said:


Quote:


In comment 14446103 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


In comment 14446093 Essex said:


Quote:


it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.



Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.

How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.

So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?

Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.



Daenerys doesn't love you.



My love for her is UNCONDITIONAL......

:)


Ok, now I'm convinced 5Bowls is just trolling here. Sweet poor Dany, LOL
the shitty writing is definitely  
giants#1 : 5/16/2019 12:12 pm : link
valid. They could've avoided a lot of this with some subtle plot tweaks by simply having Rhaegal or Missandei (or even Grey Worm) killed after the bells and immediately before she blitzkrieged King's Landing.
RE: RE: WTF is wrong with you  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14446137 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
In comment 14446012 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


are you intentionally obtuse or just slow-witted?

I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.

The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.

Yes, I called you obtuse.





The old nature vs nurture argument lives on....

You seem to assume there is such thing as a suicide gene that can be passed on genetically. Yet, you have no evidence to support that (again).

Why can’t you accept the fact that some people get overwhelmed with their circumstances and don’t have the necessary support or strength of mind/heart to fight off those sudden urges?

No, we have to call it genetic and put the blame on grandpa instead.

Let me be clear here, what you and Varys want to call a mad gene I prefer to call it someone who was overwhelmed by everything around her and made a bad call. Calling it genetics in a way absolves the perpetrator.

Do you believe a murder gene can also be passed down genetically?


You have to be trolling at this point. You suck the life out of hockey threads, now you're sucking the life out of Game of Thrones. You seem to lead a joyless life. I'd feel sorry for you if I felt like you weren't doing it on purpose.

let's recap.

You said, "There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too? "

And I replied

If it's genetic, then very likely.

that means IF it is genetic. IF. IF IF

meaning I have no fucking idea if it is genetic or not, so no I offer no evidence that it is, I assumed nothing. But IF (look up what the word means) IF it is then you possibly have a chance to be impacted by it IF it is passed down to you.

No idea how you're not laughing somewhere in a cube in some shitty tech company laughing your ass off that people respond to you.

this has to be a joke, you cannot be a real person, typing real thoughts, from a real human brain.
RE: This season and last certainly deserve criticism.  
Mike from SI : 5/16/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14446038 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
It has become plain to me that expectations have been set so high and people have become so emotionally invested that a lot of the criticism has been way over the top even when legitimate.


Spot on.
RE: I don't understand the complaint about the Mad Gene being lazy  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14446146 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
writing. There is a fuckton of shitty writing these past two seasons, but they have outlined this from the beginning and constantly reiterate it. It's not like they dropped a her father went crazy left it at that and than Dany turns into a fire breathing psychopath. The whole point was they constantly bombard you with the crazy Targ references, make you want to think Dany is above that, but drop little hints she isn't. We look past it because she faced very little adversity and she was destroying people we deem "bad", but as soon as it unravels around her her inner nature comes out. This is clearly something fleshed out by GRRM and the only real beef is that it seems a bit rushed because of the stupid decision to make this season 6 episodes.


If you want to believe she torched that city because of her MAD GENE, fine by me. It seems like that is what the writers are hoping you would do. Maybe that is all there is.

But Some of us think that line of thinking is shallow and not warranted under the circumstances given. Notice ......when and why did she snap? Did this just happen without any extenuating circumstances? If there weren’t any extenuating circumstances, then I agree, That would lend itself more to a genetic disease being passed.

But it seems to me Dany was under IMMENSE PRESSURE on so many levels, which includes losing all of the people she loves and who love and support her. I don’t believe this supports a mad gene theory. That seems to me to be an easy way out to explain this sudden irrational behavior that to the best of my knowledge, she has not exhibited before this. (Killing poor innocent nobodies.)

Again, everything was just too easy and too sudden and shoved on us to accept.....many of us feel the show let us down. We can all agree to,disagree.

So, like I have said, those like myself who are disappointed believe the show is ending with a rush to get this season over with and are not used to seeing this mediocrity in its writing. Obviously, not everyone agrees with this position and some people love this season just as much as season 1-7. I’m happy for them and it is not my intention to talk them out of their thinking.

To each their own.
RE: RE: RE: WTF is wrong with you  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14446175 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14446137 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


In comment 14446012 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


are you intentionally obtuse or just slow-witted?

I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.

The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.

Yes, I called you obtuse.





The old nature vs nurture argument lives on....

You seem to assume there is such thing as a suicide gene that can be passed on genetically. Yet, you have no evidence to support that (again).

Why can’t you accept the fact that some people get overwhelmed with their circumstances and don’t have the necessary support or strength of mind/heart to fight off those sudden urges?

No, we have to call it genetic and put the blame on grandpa instead.

Let me be clear here, what you and Varys want to call a mad gene I prefer to call it someone who was overwhelmed by everything around her and made a bad call. Calling it genetics in a way absolves the perpetrator.

Do you believe a murder gene can also be passed down genetically?



You have to be trolling at this point. You suck the life out of hockey threads, now you're sucking the life out of Game of Thrones. You seem to lead a joyless life. I'd feel sorry for you if I felt like you weren't doing it on purpose.

let's recap.

You said, "There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too? "

And I replied

If it's genetic, then very likely.

that means IF it is genetic. IF. IF IF

meaning I have no fucking idea if it is genetic or not, so no I offer no evidence that it is, I assumed nothing. But IF (look up what the word means) IF it is then you possibly have a chance to be impacted by it IF it is passed down to you.

No idea how you're not laughing somewhere in a cube in some shitty tech company laughing your ass off that people respond to you.

this has to be a joke, you cannot be a real person, typing real thoughts, from a real human brain.


Pj maybe you should disengage and not respond to my posts. Oh but wait, you have to have the last word, don’t you? Sigh....
RE: This season and last certainly deserve criticism.  
Eric on Li : 5/16/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14446038 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
It has become plain to me that expectations have been set so high and people have become so emotionally invested that a lot of the criticism has been way over the top even when legitimate.


Maybe fair maybe not, any of us can only have our own opinions. Mine is that each season 1-6 was either a 9 or a 10. Each had all time great episodes and while some episodes were slower than others and some scenes here and there critiqued the whole of those 60 episodes was far and away the best show I’ve ever seen.

Season 7 hovered I would say was more like a 7 or an 8, with the biggest criticism being the ridiculously contrived decision to go north to win over Cersei. In a 6 episode season that was the entire back half storyline. I was willing to chalk it up to the apparent necessity to get the night king a dragon and setup this season a certain way. This final season has been even worse than s7 imo bc of how undercooked the resolution with the white walkers/bran has been. Both battle episodes were excellent technically but the story hasn’t lived up. Bill2’s comment that michael Bay would be proud is dead on, although they’ve probably done the action better than him too. Maybe they will stick the landing in the final episode and tie up all loose ends well, but the whole of these last 2 seasons to me is on a very different level than the first 6. A great finale could narrow that gap a little bit or deepen it even wider.
RE: Really I’m not PP  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14446163 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
In comment 14446110 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


In comment 14446104 Motley Two said:


Quote:


In comment 14446103 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


In comment 14446093 Essex said:


Quote:


it is either to be the King or to kill Dany, not sure which one, but I think he will kill Dany and then die.



Jon killing Dany makes no sense at all. But, the writing has been juvenile this season so maybe that is the way they go.

How soon some of us forget though.....had it not been for Queen Dany’s unconditional support to Jon and the people of Winterfell to stop the Night King from taking them over and slaughtering them all, I doubt Jon, Sansa, Arya and every other Northern would be alive to talk about who will kill the Mad Queen.

So, this is how you repay someone’s goodwill and sacrifice?

Too bad Dany just didn’t tell Jon....I’m going to Kings Landing to remove that bitch Cersei. Good luck with the Night King. Don’t forget, you were given your life back for this one purpose.....to kill the NK, so I don’t think you need my help. I will worry about him only if he gets passed you.



Daenerys doesn't love you.



My love for her is UNCONDITIONAL......

:)



Ok, now I'm convinced 5Bowls is just trolling here. Sweet poor Dany, LOL


I am merely showing a perspective that appears to be shared by many other people seeing how these last two episodes have received 6 something ratings on IMDB when normally GOT episodes receives 9 something.

I have said many times, it is fine by me if you think this season is great, you love the writing, and it is everything you were hoping for.

My thinking is different. By the way, I have given the past two episodes an 8 and a 9 on IMDB, so it’s not like I haven’t enjoyed them in some ways. I am merely showing why I believe this season is my least favorite and how it has let me down. Apparently some here think we should all be of one voice and lift our cups to the mad gene theory and go to bed peacefully without any concerns with what we have seen.

I’ve stated my concerns and what has disappointed me, that is all. I didn’t write the book or the script for tv, but just like after every Giant game, I become a critic of what I’m watching.
A theory of 'Evil Bran' and the Mad Queen  
Canton : 5/16/2019 12:39 pm : link
Sounds plausible..
Link - ( New Window )
When and why did she snap? Is that a serious question?  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/16/2019 12:44 pm : link
Her most trusted advisers are selling her out, she watched her best friend get executed, and the love of her life gave her the old thanks, but no thanks. She has talked multiple times about burning cities to the ground. Now that she is alone in the world, just her and her dragon, she decided to act on those impulses which have been tempered throughout the show by her inner circle. You seriously can't be that obtuse.
RE: A theory of 'Evil Bran' and the Mad Queen  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/16/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14446223 Canton said:
Quote:
Sounds plausible.. Link - ( New Window )


This is very plausible.
RE: When and why did she snap? Is that a serious question?  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14446232 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Her most trusted advisers are selling her out, she watched her best friend get executed, and the love of her life gave her the old thanks, but no thanks. She has talked multiple times about burning cities to the ground. Now that she is alone in the world, just her and her dragon, she decided to act on those impulses which have been tempered throughout the show by her inner circle. You seriously can't be that obtuse.


So you agree, the mad gene theory makes no sense then.....
Bran theory is wrong...  
Tesla : 5/16/2019 12:50 pm : link
showruners already explained that Dany went nuts after seeing the Red Keep and realizing all that had been taken from her family. The burning of KL was very much intentional on her part.
Haha  
Mr. Bungle : 5/16/2019 12:54 pm : link
465,000+
link - ( New Window )
RE: A theory of 'Evil Bran' and the Mad Queen  
giants#1 : 5/16/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14446223 Canton said:
Quote:
Sounds plausible.. Link - ( New Window )


People think the back story for Mad Queen was weak, but are OK with 'Evil Bran'? There's been nothing to indicate Bran is evil other than some wild fan theories that he really is the NK.
It seems some posters are talking about real people and  
Cam in MO : 5/16/2019 1:26 pm : link
others are talking about characters in a work of fiction.

If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.


RE: It seems some posters are talking about real people and  
Motley Two : 5/16/2019 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14446289 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
others are talking about characters in a work of fiction.

If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.




Absolutely agree.
Moving on to the finale  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 2:14 pm : link
I have a few predictions:

1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.

2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.

3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.

4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.

Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1

My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.
RE: Moving on to the finale  
Giantology : 5/16/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14446362 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
I have a few predictions:

1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.

2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.

3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.

4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.

Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1

My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.


Super original predictions. You read /r/Freefolk too?
I prefer to think they're trolling  
schabadoo : 5/16/2019 3:02 pm : link
The other option is too sad.
pretty decent list compiled on Reddit  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/16/2019 3:02 pm : link
showing all the foreshadowing for Dany's turn.

Quote:

• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)

• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”

• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”

• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."

• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.

• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”

• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.

• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”

• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”

• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”

• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.

• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.

• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”

• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”

• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”

• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)

• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”

• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.

• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”

• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.

• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”

• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.

• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.

• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”

• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.

• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.

• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)

• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)

• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”

• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”

• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)

• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.

• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”

• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”

• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)

• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)

• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”

And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.

She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.


It's possible to quibble over the relevance of specific items listed. But the show has displayed time and time again that Dany had a thirst for vengeance and that she would do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/ - ( New Window )
I also thought this was an interesting read on Episode 5  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/16/2019 3:08 pm : link
Again, from Reddit, a post titled:

"This episode was my favorite in years, perhaps in the entire series, for a specific reason: I think it did an incredible job at subverting something that many works of fiction have been guilty of doing for so long that most audiences don't even notice it anymore."

Quote:
disclaimer: this is not meant to be a defense of the entire season, just a praise of this episode in particular and what I feel it portrayed well

TL;DR: The despicable behavior and general horror we saw in Episode 5 is what warfare and conflict actually looks like, and the warfare and behavior we've seen in prior seasons only seems tamer because we've only seen it from the perspective of the main characters, who are all nobility or otherwise sheltered. This episode did a great job of challenging the ubiquitous misconceptions of warfare in media that mask the evils that arise when you ask people to kill other people on a large scale.

This show has always needed to decide what details to keep from the books and what parts to throw away. It needs to do this for time and budget limitations. As a result, we don't get to see many of the story's main events from the perspective of anyone that's not a main character. It's easy to forget this, but the main characters are all nobility or are servants of nobility, and they DO NOT represent the general population. As a result, a huge theme of the books that show viewers don't get to see is how fucking horrible and cruel the world is, and in particular warfare is, for anyone that's not wealthy, powerful or otherwise protected.

Let me clarify; there is a disingenuous notion in most portrayals of warfare in which the biggest tragedy that can come out of a war is thought to be the 'good guys' dying, the 'bad guys' living to be bad again, and the 'objectively and morally wrong side' prevailing in carrying out their evil plan. I think this idea is a result of the narrative built around WWII, which popularized the idea of 'fighting a war to destroy an evil worse than the war itself'. This good-vs-evil view of war was an exception, not a norm; in most wars throughout history, the adversary was not as cartoonishly evil as the Nazis, and the cause was not as obviously noble as 'fighting for freedom and the lives of others'. In the medieval to early-modern period of Europe which the show is based off of, the average conflict usually amounted to something like, "This lord does not recognize me, the nephew of the king, as the rightful heir; I will pay my soldiers above-peasant wages to kill his soldiers for me so I can secure the throne." Not quite as noble, yes, but this kind of petty dispute was the cause of the majority of conflicts in Europe and elsewhere for centuries: some powerful person wanted more power, so they went after it.

I think that the show up to this point has taken advantage of the fact that we, the audience, are very used to the WWII-style 'good-vs-evil' portrayal of warfare that popular media has sold to us. GoT consistently set up the Starks and their associates as 'good' and the Lannisters and their associates as 'evil', with some exceptions. In reality, the net good done by the Starks and the net evil done by the Lannisters are not all that different. If it seems that the Lannisters are worse than the Starks, then it's probably because you are only paying attention to what is said and done by/to the main characters, who are all nobility or serve nobility. In reality, the nobility that start these wars, based on succession and family feuds, are doing so for selfish reasons that hurt the majority of Westerosi people. To solidify this point, consider the Stark's role in the War of the Five Kings.

In the War of the Five Kings, we are very much led to believe that Robb Stark is righteous in his cause of rebelling against the Lannisters because of the injustices done to the Starks and the cruel nature of the Lannisters as main characters (Jaime, Cersei and Tywin). But how sure are you of this characterization? Is it a fact that Robb was the 'good guy'? Did he do anything that actually made the world a better place? Or...maybe you only find yourself rooting for him because you liked what came out of his mouth more than Joffrey and you felt bad for what happened to Ned? Consider for a moment the effects of his rebellion which almost certainly happened, but that we weren't shown because the show wanted us to see noble speeches and bannermen celebrating victories instead.

We didn't get to see his soldiers stealing food and grain from poor families preparing for the winter. We didn't get to see his soldiers killing and maiming civilians caught in the crossfire. We didn't get to see all the women his soldiers came across that were raped. We didn't get to see the children that were killed for sport or fun. We didn't get to see the citizens of the North who were executed because they didn't want to fight and die for Robb's cause. These are the nasty features common to every war ever fought by humanity, and they universally occur in any situation where you get a lot of people under stress who are told that killing is good and the right thing to do. If you hadn't thought about this because it wasn't portrayed, I don't blame you; these realities are constantly glossed over in historical adaptations and movies because we like to root for the good guy more than accept the fact that far more people end up losing in a war than winning.

Maybe the Starks weren't good, you say, but the Lannisters were definitely worse, right? Let me ask another question; what did the Lannisters do that made the realities of warfare that the Starks brought to Westeros (rape, murder, suffering etc.) worth it? Did they...commit genocide? Did they starve their population? Did they indiscriminately kill their citizens? No, they didn't. They didn't actually do any of that, and any acts of cruelty they committed against innocents prior to Robb's rebellion had been done by plenty of other houses. In all honesty, the Lannisters were as good as any other house; the kept their people safe and fed. The truth about the Stark rebellion is that we only cared about Robb winning because we were constantly shown what a victory meant for him, his family, and his loved ones. We liked Robb the character, so we automatically liked his rebellion without considering what it was actually doing to the world. So when he was killed alongside his mother and banner men, it was a huge deal to us. It was the worst thing imaginable at the time. And the Lannisters became evil in our eyes.

This nobility-first portrayal of war, the 'good guy vs bad guy' nature of the conflicts in the show, even the notion that a person who appears to be good can't commit acts of evil--they are all lies. It's just not how war works, and it's not how people work. The nobility may have the luxury of talking about why their conflict is right, why their enemy is evil, and why they are the one who truly cares about the people....but this ignores the fact that warfare is unceremoniously cruel and unfair for the average person, no matter what the intentions behind it are. For every injustice done to the Stark nobility, multiply that by a thousand for the people who's lives were destroyed by the war that the Stark nobility launched, and realize that they get no justice and no satisfaction knowing which lord was 'good' or 'bad'. They are caught in the middle of a horrible machine and there's nothing they can do about it.

Now, onto the episode. I absolutely loved this new episode because it totally flew in the face of this convention, and it appears that a lot of the audience is having a hard time grasping that what we just saw actually happened. There were many, many moments that shredded up all the things in the show that we had grown comfortable with when we were only watching nobility fight between each other or armies fight against the dead. Among these moments were:

-The absolute horrors done to civilians caught in the battle that up until this point we haven't really seen, but almost certainly occurred;

-The supposedly 'kind and decent' Northerners killing and raping right alongside the Dothraki, which again has probably been occurring a lot but we just haven't been shown;

-Gray Worm having zero qualms about killing surrendering Lannisters because guess what, it's extremely common for soldiers who lose friends and loved ones to the enemy to take out their rage by massacring enemy prisoners;

-Denearys taking this to the extreme and completely destroying the stronghold of her enemies, despite the civilian casualties, and being completely unfazed by anyone's death besides 'her side' (those she brought over from Essos);

-Jaime totally abandoning any notions of righteousness after trying to convince himself he was good and feeling no real change in his own character after doing the 'right thing' for once in his life;

-Jon being totally flummoxed by the fact that the war he was fighting did not live up to any of the high ideals and platitudes he constantly spouted when he was in a position to do so;

-The fact that this was one of the first battles in the series that was not a 'pitched' battle (i.e., one army meets another in the field), which were EXCEEDINGLY rare in medieval European warfare;

-The fact that Arya is not an unstoppable badass as she has been shown when all she had to do was assassinate cartoonishly evil people, and in fact she's just as scared of a pointless death as anyone, but this is literally the first time she's ever had to deal with the fact that she might not die fighting for something greater than herself- which is exactly how all the people having to deal with these battles have felt the entire series.

-The fact that Denearys totally fucking snaps and lets the power go to her head once she realizes that her entire life's work might have been compromised by people she trusted working against her. This lack of mercy when trying to secure one's position is the status quo for anyone with a great amount of power in the real world, but we all pretended that Dany was going to be different.

Overall, these events were awesome, and I'm so glad that the show finally gave us a taste of what all the nobility's talk of honor, justice, and so on amounts to when it comes to the reality of warfare.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7bfl/spoilers_this_episode_was_my_favorite_in_years/ - ( New Window )
RE: It seems some posters are talking about real people and  
Giants in 07 : 5/16/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14446289 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
others are talking about characters in a work of fiction.

If one of the qualifications for great art is to create an emotional connection between real and fictional people, I’d say the writers of this show exceeded that qualification in spades.



I think this is spot on as well

For me personally, I hate that the show is ending seeming so rushed and that just gets magnified so much when I think about how so many characters don't even get an ending that makes sense.
RE: pretty decent list compiled on Reddit  
Giants in 07 : 5/16/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14446429 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
showing all the foreshadowing for Dany's turn.



Quote:



• 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)

• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”

• 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”

• 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."

• 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.

• 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”

• 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.

• 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”

• 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”

• 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”

• 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.

• 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.

• 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

• 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”

• 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”

• 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”

• 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)

• 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”

• 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.

• 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”

• 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.

• 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”

• 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.

• 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.

• 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”

• 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.

• 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.

• 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)

• 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)

• 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”

• 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”

• 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)

• 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.

• 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”

• 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”

• 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)

• 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)

• 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”

And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.

Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.

She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.



It's possible to quibble over the relevance of specific items listed. But the show has displayed time and time again that Dany had a thirst for vengeance and that she would do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her. https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/bo7l4u/spoilers_all_of_the_foreshadowing_that_lead_up_to/ - ( New Window )


Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...

1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North

2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"

3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.

There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.

The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.
RE: RE: Moving on to the finale  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14446406 Giantology said:
Quote:
In comment 14446362 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


I have a few predictions:

1. Tyrion will be arrested for treason. 50-50 chance he lives to see tomorrow.

2. Dany will not be remorseful, thus will be killed.
I’m thinking it would be by somebody who can get close enough to her to get by Grey Worm. Jon is the most likely candidate. If Arya does her face thing, she also can get close enough, especially if she kills Grey Worm and takes his face. Bronn also has an outside chance and motive seeing that Tyrion will likely be sentenced to be executed because he wants Highgarden.

3. I do not believe Jon wants the throne so I think he just leaves KL to head back North to be with people he loves.

4. Because I think Tyrion may not live to see tomorrow, I’m not sure who is qualified to rule. Maybe Sansa since the show seems to favor the Starks.

Betting odds on who kills Dany:
Jon snow 2-1
Arya 6-1
Bronn. 20-1
Tyrion 40-1
Sansa. 30-1
Sir Davos 50-1

My money though is on JON SNOW, the favorite. Arya has already had her fame and glory in killing the Night King.



Super original predictions. You read /r/Freefolk too?


I don’t know who freedolk are. I don’t read or have any interest on hearing other people’s thoughts except in a dialog. But I realize saying Jon kills Dany is not that shocking or even saying Arya killing Dany is rather shocking, or original.

Saying Jon doesn’t want to rule is not to shocking either since he has said this how many times? He is not very politically minded and if he does kill Dany I would imagine this will not sit well with him emotionally. He knows he and Winterfell would not be around had Dany not intervened and came to their aid.

Actually, there isn’t much too shocking left. It seems the Starks are the heroes and the Lannister’s and Targaryens are the bad guys.

Btw, Do you have anything useful to add to this conversation or any intelligent response to my post?
Hey PaulBlakeTCU  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 3:33 pm : link
I quit reading your Reddit list when I read this....

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!

if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.
RE: RE: pretty decent list compiled on Reddit  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/16/2019 3:36 pm : link
In comment 14446452 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:


Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...

1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North

2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"

3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.

There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.

The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.


When she chained her dragons, she was already in control. She had taken over the city (IIRC) and she did so to keep the people on her side.

I think it shows the duality of her character. I think she had some good intentions of wanting to be a just Queen and breaker of chains, but it came with an unquenchable desire for the throne and a willingness to do horrible things to go it. I also think her benevolence was also a bit of a vanity project. She wanted it, so long as it didn't interfere with her being the ruler. She was obsessed with the throne to the point that one has to wonder whether her benevolent notions were genuine. Anyone so obsessed with gaining power is thinking primarily about that power.

Also, just because the bells rang, it doesn't mean that she accomplished her goal. As far as Dany knows, the bells only signify that Kings Landing surrendered because that is what Tyrion told her.
But Tyrion has also been on a streak of giving bad advice to Dany. More specifically, Tyrion has been on a streak of underestimating the callousness or indifference of his sister. For all Dany knows, Cersei ringing the bells could be another trap or deceit.

Plus, Dany may have taken out the armies in Kings Landing, but she hadn't "won" yet. The people in KL don't know her-- she's just a foreign usurper who is the daughter of the Mad King that slaughtered the city before. So why would they bow to her as their Queen?

And prior episodes and Dany's own words acknowledged that the people in the North didn't have an allegiance to her, but rather to Jon. Plus, Jon had a clearly better claim to the throne than she did.
RE: Hey PaulBlakeTCU  
PaulBlakeTSU : 5/16/2019 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14446465 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
I quit reading your Reddit list when I read this....

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!

if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.


You have been trolling this whole thread. I'm glad you stopped reading.
5BowlsSoon  
Giantology : 5/16/2019 3:58 pm : link
Your next post that actually adds anything useful or intelligent to the thread will be your first.
RE: A theory of 'Evil Bran' and the Mad Queen  
BrettNYG10 : 5/16/2019 4:26 pm : link
In comment 14446223 Canton said:
Quote:
Sounds plausible.. Link - ( New Window )


This would require Bran to be interesting.
RE: RE: Hey PaulBlakeTCU  
5BowlsSoon : 5/16/2019 4:32 pm : link
In comment 14446484 PaulBlakeTSU said:
Quote:
In comment 14446465 5BowlsSoon said:


Quote:


I quit reading your Reddit list when I read this....

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!

if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.



You have been trolling this whole thread. I'm glad you stopped reading.


Some here may not know what the word trolling means so let me help you

: to antagonize (others) online by deliberately posting inflammatory, irrelevant, or offensive comments or other disruptive content

Most of my comments have been made to support a position some take issue to regarding the quality of the writing this season. I’m sorry some here don’t like it when people disagree. But you really need to realize your opinion isn’t etched in stone. Besides there are always two sides to every coin. And sometimes there may not be a right and wrong opinion.
RE: RE: pretty decent list compiled on Reddit  
Eric on Li : 5/16/2019 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14446452 Giants in 07 said:
Quote:


Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...

1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North

2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"

3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.

There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.

The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.


Good post. Her end point in this series was far from locked in any certain way, but the path they've taken her on the past 2 seasons since setting sail for Westeros has been at best muddled. In a lot of ways it's the path they put her on by proxy of Tyrion since she basically listened to him up until the moment of the bells - which as you mentioned was the moment she finally had what she wanted (iron throne). It would have made more sense for her to break bad killing Jon since he was perhaps the last remaining genuine threat than massacring the people of KL who to that point were literally silent bystanders.

And that's where none of the alternating explanations of "she just went crazy" and "she needed the love of the people" and "she was always blood thirsty for the iron throne" square with what's happened before. She had been isolated and desperate before time and again without going crazy. She had ruled over people who didn't love her (Mereen) and she went out of her way to not kill them (chaining the dragons, closing the fighting pits). She had passed on earlier chances to go for the iron throne in favor of liberating the oppressed. Killing the oppressed at the moment she'd won the iron throne just seems a bridge too far when taking vengeance against Cersei was right there as an alternative option. It also almost gave her time to get to the same secret passages Tyrion used to escape KL under the red keep.

Alan Sepinwall has been one of the better TV commentators going back to working at the star ledger during the sopranos, his take is spot on IMO.

Quote:
Dany’s descent into genocidal madness didn’t exactly come out of nowhere. Throughout her travels across Essos, her preferred solution to problems was to burn them and all the people associated with them. She’s impetuous, narcissistic and one of the last members of a bloodline with a history of doing things exactly like what she did to King’s Landing. But the manner in which it played out this season felt sloppy in the way these last few seasons have often been. It’s not just about characters like Euron and Bronn and Jaime surviving point-blank dragon-fire attacks, or Varys (RIP) being able to teleport across continents. It’s that Benioff and Weiss have been a lot less diligent at getting the characters — and the Mother of Dragons in particular — to the planned endpoint. They’ve told us where this is going, but they haven’t really shown the work necessary to bring her from “erratic but ultimately well-meaning” to “will roast thousands of innocent civilians alive just because she feels like it.” A version where she ignored the bells and flew Drogon straight through Cersei’s balcony would have felt of a piece with where the story had taken us to this point. What she did instead required at least another half of a regular-length GoT season to feel earned. But the showrunners needed their queen to get mad in a hurry, and so she did.
This idea that the show runners  
eclipz928 : 5/16/2019 5:17 pm : link
"rushed" to this development on Dany's character needs to stop. Dany's sharp progression to that moment had been building over the span of the 5 1/2 hours of the show's run time this season - that's almost the equivalent of two Lord of the Rings movies. We really don't need any more exposition.
RE: RE: RE: pretty decent list compiled on Reddit  
Giants in 07 : 5/16/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14446533 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14446452 Giants in 07 said:


Quote:




Now do a list where she has changed her course of action based on innocents being involved. I'll start...

1. Didn't attack KL with 3 dragons, full Dothraki, full Unsullied, Greyjoy Fleet, Dorne and the North

2. With regards to Astapor..."There are 200,000 reasons to save the city"

3. She stunted the growth of two of her dragons, chaining them in the dungeons of Meereen because the 3rd dragon killed one little girl.

There are crumbs to the Dany turn happening throughout the show, that's 100% true. But not in the way in which it was presented on screen.

The main point is that you say that she would "do whatever it took to take back the iron because it was her destiny and it belonged to her" and the people that would debate you on this are going to say that she accomplished that before deciding to genocide the city. She accomplished her goal already and did it anyway. That is the thing that doesn't fly with her character, to me.



Good post. Her end point in this series was far from locked in any certain way, but the path they've taken her on the past 2 seasons since setting sail for Westeros has been at best muddled. In a lot of ways it's the path they put her on by proxy of Tyrion since she basically listened to him up until the moment of the bells - which as you mentioned was the moment she finally had what she wanted (iron throne). It would have made more sense for her to break bad killing Jon since he was perhaps the last remaining genuine threat than massacring the people of KL who to that point were literally silent bystanders.

And that's where none of the alternating explanations of "she just went crazy" and "she needed the love of the people" and "she was always blood thirsty for the iron throne" square with what's happened before. She had been isolated and desperate before time and again without going crazy. She had ruled over people who didn't love her (Mereen) and she went out of her way to not kill them (chaining the dragons, closing the fighting pits). She had passed on earlier chances to go for the iron throne in favor of liberating the oppressed. Killing the oppressed at the moment she'd won the iron throne just seems a bridge too far when taking vengeance against Cersei was right there as an alternative option. It also almost gave her time to get to the same secret passages Tyrion used to escape KL under the red keep.

Alan Sepinwall has been one of the better TV commentators going back to working at the star ledger during the sopranos, his take is spot on IMO.



Quote:


Dany’s descent into genocidal madness didn’t exactly come out of nowhere. Throughout her travels across Essos, her preferred solution to problems was to burn them and all the people associated with them. She’s impetuous, narcissistic and one of the last members of a bloodline with a history of doing things exactly like what she did to King’s Landing. But the manner in which it played out this season felt sloppy in the way these last few seasons have often been. It’s not just about characters like Euron and Bronn and Jaime surviving point-blank dragon-fire attacks, or Varys (RIP) being able to teleport across continents. It’s that Benioff and Weiss have been a lot less diligent at getting the characters — and the Mother of Dragons in particular — to the planned endpoint. They’ve told us where this is going, but they haven’t really shown the work necessary to bring her from “erratic but ultimately well-meaning” to “will roast thousands of innocent civilians alive just because she feels like it.” A version where she ignored the bells and flew Drogon straight through Cersei’s balcony would have felt of a piece with where the story had taken us to this point. What she did instead required at least another half of a regular-length GoT season to feel earned. But the showrunners needed their queen to get mad in a hurry, and so she did.



You (and Sepinwall) have it exactly right IMO
RE: This idea that the show runners  
UConn4523 : 5/16/2019 5:52 pm : link
In comment 14446562 eclipz928 said:
Quote:
"rushed" to this development on Dany's character needs to stop. Dany's sharp progression to that moment had been building over the span of the 5 1/2 hours of the show's run time this season - that's almost the equivalent of two Lord of the Rings movies. We really don't need any more exposition.


Again I think that’s a misinterpretation. They rushed everything, period. Only an oblivious person didn’t see Danys actions coming, but that doesn’t mean it was executed well.

It’s really as simple as that for me. I just don’t think the condensed seasons did this story any favors.

Also, I asked earlier but what’s the difference between Dany and so many other awful rulers who’ve murdered a ton of people? I don’t really think “madness” is how I’d describe her at all. If that word wasn’t used to describe Aerys we’d just be calling her a terrible person. It’s almost as over used as “winter is coming” and then not mattering anymore.

Bad writing.
It’s set up for the Queenslayer  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 5/16/2019 8:36 pm : link
Which makes the “Kingslayers” ending so much worse.

Having him take Briennes virginity after fighting the Night King and white walkers... only for him to die with Cersei? I get what they were going for but it was the wrong move, especially after the Brienne thing.
RE: Hey PaulBlakeTCU  
santacruzom : 5/17/2019 11:55 pm : link
In comment 14446465 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
I quit reading your Reddit list when I read this....

• 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.

LOL,.....SOLE PURPOSE!

if you believe this, I guess you will find anything to support what your want to believe too.


Yeah, I'd say that list has some pretty damn willful misinterpretations.
This is the butterfly effect that GRRM warned about in motion  
moespree : 5/18/2019 12:28 am : link
I won't go too far into the books since I don't think many want to discuss that. All I'll say is I suspect Dany will do this in the books too. However, the trigger will be a character that they omitted in the show and largely substituted Cersei for in seasons 7 and 8. I suspect the people of King's Landing will choose him over her and seek his protection from her. She will know, though the people won't, that he is a fake and a fraud and this will confuse and hurt her. She'll think to herself she's only here to help and they're afraid of me and don't want me. And so begins her slow descent into paranoia, sadness, anger, etc opening the door for this event.

See the problem though is the motivations are entirely different. The motivation is rejection by the common people due to who your father is for someone else whom they choose because of who they think his father is. They can't do that in the show because none of this is even remotely the same with Cersei.

This is the butterfly effect of making drastic changes that GRRM warned about. It's why Dany's actions in 805 seem somewhat off and out of place to people. Because the way GRRM outlined it to them, they just could never pull off due to earlier creative decisions they made.
RE: This is the butterfly effect that GRRM warned about in motion  
santacruzom : 5/18/2019 3:34 am : link
Interesting moe.

One aspect of Dany-going-utterly-murderous that has bothered me is how the show presents "motivation" that doesn't stand up to scrutiny (much like how it presented objections to the sensible way to address Varys' concerns that also didn't stand up to scrutiny). For instance, we're to accept that Dany observed how Jon was regarded by his people, lamented that she wasn't regarded in the same way, and must therefore choose fear. Of course Jon would be regarded that way by his people after all he'd done for them, after he'd united so many of them, defeated Ramsay, after the atrocities and indignities faced by the Starks, etc. And somehow Dany is supposed to turn mass-homicidal towards surrendering innocents at first opportunity because it dawned on her that she didn't engender that following upon arrival?
She was more irritated that she was  
eclipz928 : 5/18/2019 6:32 am : link
receiving barely any adulation after bringing her army there to fight a war that she never intended to be a part of - a war that cost her most trusted advisor. Jon and everyone else in Winterfell would have been dead without her.
Ehh, no one wanted to be part of that war  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2019 6:55 am : link
and there would be nothing left for her to rule if she didn’t help.
RE: This is the butterfly effect that GRRM warned about in motion  
Cam in MO : 5/18/2019 8:29 am : link
In comment 14447966 moespree said:
Quote:
I won't go too far into the books since I don't think many want to discuss that. All I'll say is I suspect Dany will do this in the books too. However, the trigger will be a character that they omitted in the show and largely substituted Cersei for in seasons 7 and 8. I suspect the people of King's Landing will choose him over her and seek his protection from her. She will know, though the people won't, that he is a fake and a fraud and this will confuse and hurt her. She'll think to herself she's only here to help and they're afraid of me and don't want me. And so begins her slow descent into paranoia, sadness, anger, etc opening the door for this event.

See the problem though is the motivations are entirely different. The motivation is rejection by the common people due to who your father is for someone else whom they choose because of who they think his father is. They can't do that in the show because none of this is even remotely the same with Cersei.

This is the butterfly effect of making drastic changes that GRRM warned about. It's why Dany's actions in 805 seem somewhat off and out of place to people. Because the way GRRM outlined it to them, they just could never pull off due to earlier creative decisions they made.


Eh- that character was excluded early on and I believe that plot line is a dead end...if he played such a major role I can’t see them excluding him so early.
Also....  
Cam in MO : 5/18/2019 8:55 am : link
..
GoT writers disappointed with decline in fan quality - ( New Window )
RE: Also....  
UConn4523 : 5/18/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14448068 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
.. GoT writers disappointed with decline in fan quality - ( New Window )


What’s funny is I can see this almost being true.
which omitted character are you guys referencing?  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2019 10:20 am : link
YG? or 1 of the many disastrous adaptations of the plot from dorne?
I figured YG, but I always figured him to be a red herring.  
Cam in MO : 5/18/2019 11:43 am : link
....
RE: I figured YG, but I always figured him to be a red herring.  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2019 12:06 pm : link
In comment 14448172 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
....


idk I thought YG seemed better positioned to have the support of westeros ahead of Dany - but they basically just merged that aspect into Jon. though even in the books I suppose the fact that Dany + Jon were in it from the beginning likely puts them ahead of YG in the importance to how the story ends.
RE: I figured YG, but I always figured him to be a red herring.  
moespree : 5/18/2019 1:15 pm : link
In comment 14448172 Cam in MO said:
Quote:
....


Yes I was referring to him. I also think they gave Dany a Jon Connington plot of all things. It makes perfect sense to me that Connington would be triggered by bells given his presence in the Battle of the Bells in Robert's Rebellion. I have no idea why they would do this in the show though and that's why it seems so ridiculous that Dany suddenly snaps when she hears bells. It makes no sense for her at all, but makes perfect sense for Connington to snap. Especially considering Connington admires what Tywin did in sacking King's Landing and thinks that's the way to go moving forward. If correct, giving her that Connington plot is beyond ridiculous and was just asking for people to be confused.

Cersei getting the Golden Company in the show and the outright destruction of them in 805 was what made me think there's no doubt this is a substitute for YG vs Dany in the books. She'll kill him and destroy the Golden Company and if I had to guess will lose control over her impulses and go to far when attacking leading to something similar to what happened in 805.
RE: RE: I figured YG, but I always figured him to be a red herring.  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2019 2:50 pm : link
In comment 14448211 moespree said:
Quote:

Cersei getting the Golden Company in the show and the outright destruction of them in 805 was what made me think there's no doubt this is a substitute for YG vs Dany in the books. She'll kill him and destroy the Golden Company and if I had to guess will lose control over her impulses and go to far when attacking leading to something similar to what happened in 805.


That makes sense - and also makes much more sense if YG is the 3rd betrayal whom the people rally around instead of her.
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