First of all happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers and hell even the mother f@& $?3?s on here.
Not making the same mistake like last week this will be the only place I’ll be online untill after it airs. Well maybe some golf clash. I’m sure leaks will be out there as the episode draws closer.
Battle of Mother’s Day the mother of dragons vs “pregnant “ Cersei. Don’t think more than half the episode will be battle but could be epic. I think the death toll will be high this episode since most everyone somehow survived the BoW. Maybe a little foreshadowing but the episode Tywin died was on Father’s Day could his daughter have the same fate tonight?
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
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Dany has gone mad IMO, maybe loss contributed to it a little, but she contributed to the loss.
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
Maybe nudged it a little, but it was destiny.
Again, Varys cited it last night and Baristan Selmy also said it directly to Dany (in the books at least I don't remember it in the show) explaining Viserys (though foreshadowing Daenerys):
King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.
so you can blame loss, or losing, or whatever you want, but it was destiny.
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
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In comment 14442288 pjcas18 said:
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Dany has gone mad IMO, maybe loss contributed to it a little, but she contributed to the loss.
She gave the nod to Khal Drogo to kill Viserys. Who was a total douche bag to her even saying he'd let all 40,000 Dothrakis and their horses rape her if it meant their army would support him in a fight for the throne.
She agreed with the witch that "only death can pay for life" when she bargained for Khal Drogo's life
I hate the Jorah story line, he spied on her and almost led to her assassination. I struggle to see how he could get that close to her again. Hated it in the books and the show equally.
She, like most full blooded Targaryen's, is mad, likely due to incest and the feeling that the iron throne is owed to her. Not created mad by loss IMO. She was raised to believe as a Targaryen the throne was theirs and others were userpers.
Dany's loss basically mirrors Cersei's. I don't think loss drives them, I think it's madness and thirst for power though Cersei was not born via incest she's affected by it clearly.
I think loss and losing absolutely helped turn her into the mad queen. Well that and lack of sleep. She looked pretty tired at Dragonstone.
Maybe nudged it a little, but it was destiny.
Again, Varys cited it last night and Baristan Selmy also said it directly to Dany (in the books at least I don't remember it in the show) explaining Viserys (though foreshadowing Daenerys):
King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.
so you can blame loss, or losing, or whatever you want, but it was destiny.
I mean I guess we will never know, but she seemed pretty happy with Drogo and wasn't thinking about going to the seven kingdoms until they tried to killed her and her baby. I wouldn't be shocked if she try and redeem her a little bit next episode, but because it was to much it will be to late.
So is everyone mad?
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
To add to that Sandy said it... If I wanted to leave to go home she would put me on a ship fully loaded and wish me well. I mean you lose everything and get no sleep and see how pleasant you are to talk to.
Even Mad King Aerys didn't start out mad.
I'm not going to claim I predicted the extent of the carnage, but the madness I thought was definitely coming, I thought it would be more paranoia and drive a wedge between her and Jon or her and sansa or her and Gendry or something like that.
the carnage surprised me, but looking back it seems like it shouldn't have.
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
So many people suffered many more losses than Dany.
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I just don't think someone has to be "mad" (i.e. crazy) to be calculating. She clearly came to the rationale conclusion that she could not rule by making people love her (whether that was right or wrong, there is some logic in it).
Also, in hindsight, many of the things she wanted to do and got talked out of doing once she landed in Westeros was actually probably the smarter thing to do. (This is where the Tyrion critics can point to Tyrion continually providing her bad advice).
Besides all of the things Amtoft mentioned above (personal losses on an epic scale), her core group of advisors have all died or betrayed her. The Dothraki and Unsullied are just nameless pawns to her. Do you get the sense she REALLY loves them? I don't.
My point is one can make an argument that Dany's actions do have a certain sick logic behind them.
So many people suffered many more losses than Dany.
Ummm who lost they mother, father, both brothers, actually every Targaryen family member with exception of the person she ended up falling in love with and who won't be with her because he things incest is gross. She lost the love of her life and an unborn baby, her blood rider before they got to Quarth, 2 dragons who were her children, and all but one of her best of best friends and closest people to her. Really who does she even have in the world left except Greyworm?
Who lost more than that?
So is everyone mad?
This is getting into deeper issues, but the real world is a very dangerous and dark place. We live in an era and a civilization where this is not fully understood. It's easy to be armchair QBs, sitting on our comfy couches with popcorn and our favorite beverage, and condemn "evil" without fully understanding human nature and history.
Just a couple of decades ago, we were still witnessing genocide in the Balkans in the heart of "civilized" Europe. Human slavery (sex trafficking) is rampant in the world right now. Concentration camps actually still exist in this world.
One of the things I like about Game of Thrones is there is no "black and white"...everything has shades of gray... and that's how life is. So when I read Twitter warrior criticisms like "Dany's true character would never do that", I think people are too isolated from reality and real human history.
Killing tens, possibly hundreds, of thousands of civilians to kill the remaining 1-2 thousand Lannister troops, of a surrending army, is not calculating. It's batshit insane at best.
And those other people didn't have a dragon and an army behind them to settle the score.
Human history is filled with mass murder by those who are not crazy.
And those other people didn't have a dragon and an army behind them to settle the score.
Destroying Kings Landing had nothing to do with settling the score IMO.
It had to do with her madness and desire to rule by fear because she watched how much the people admired Jon Snow and realized the people of Westeros would never love her.
Her father had the exact same tendency, once his throne was in jeopardy he ordered Kings Landing destroyed.
Human history is filled with mass murder by those who are not crazy.
This exactly... She did it so she could rule without doubt through FEAR.
There is also the element of establishing rule based on fear.
But I don't think they are going to make her "crazy"... I may be wrong.
One of the biggest disservices we can do to history is labeling evil acts or actors as "mad" or "crazy." Hitler and Stalin were not crazy. And calling them such marginalizes them as REAL historical figures and turns them more into caricatures. They actually become LESS scary when we do that. And it's a disservice to history.
I think Dany is a bit unhinged right now. And I may be dead wrong and they have full crazy in her eyes in the final episode. But I wouldn't take it in that direction. I would end it as her being more of a tragic figure.
Link - ( New Window )
This is what I was trying to say. And if you really look at all of the characters in Game of Thrones, they all have warts.
Dany at this point is completely disassociated from Westeros - she alludes to this during her conversation with Jon. She views the throne as belonging to her, but these are not her* people.
The people will certainly fear her now, but that will be more of a byproduct of her mass murder than it being her ultimate goal.
My guess for next week is she tries to have a trial and kill Tyrion for treason. I bet this is where the Bronn story line comes back in, because he needs to save him to keep Highgarden. He may kill Dany for example and then Jon takes the throne. Or perhaps Jon continues to refuse it and Sansa/Bran/Gendry take it. I don't think Dany comes out of next week the victor. They all know what she is now.
At least TWICE already, Dany had to be talked out of attacking King's Landing with her dragons. The first time when she landed in Westeros and the second time after Highgarden fell. The collateral damage from THREE dragons attacking probably would have been even more devastating.
As for killing "innocents", look at strategic bombing by all sides in World War II. Dresden is a good example because the war was all but over and Dresden wasn't a military target.
Dany at this point is completely disassociated from Westeros - she alludes to this during her conversation with Jon. She views the throne as belonging to her, but these are not her* people.
The people will certainly fear her now, but that will be more of a byproduct of her mass murder than it being her ultimate goal.
You could be right, but I hope they don't make her batshit crazy in the last episode.
I think this season shows definitively that you can't set up a sprawling multi-character web and quickly tie it all together because the investors don't want to pay for two more seasons.
Regarding this last episode - I liked the mountain defying Cersei and crushing his master's skull. That was about it.
Jamie isn't getting caught by anyone in a land he knows better than them.
If Dani is out of her mind enough to decide a suicide run with her dragon at the iron fleet in the sunlight was the best play, then everything else she did makes perfect sense. To me, its as laughable as her and her dragons getting surprised by some ships when they would have seen them miles out of range.
Cersi apparently didn't think arrows or archers were worth investing in. However, the sum total of her purchased army and the lannister army looked like no more than a small garrison for the city. It didn't look to me that they would even have needed the dragon.
I'm having trouble recalling the differences in show vs. the books in this area and Dany going mad may have been GRRM's end game as well, but if it is I'd hope some of the circumstances leading to it are a lot less contrived and will feel more earned vs. a pure heel turn - specifically Tyrion's multiple season arc of strategic ineptitude and Missendei's swift abduction/execution.
I guess it makes sense from HBO’s point of view. Odds are there are a lot of people who don’t stick through to the end if they already got the conclusion from the books. The only reason I watch is because I couldn’t wait any longer for Martin to finish, and wanted to see the ending for myself rather than have it spoiled on the internet or over hearing someone discuss it. Books already finished? - ( New Window )
I've sort of suspected this for a while and I'm hoping it's accurate. Once it became the TV sensation it did there was no point putting more spoilers out there mid-stream.
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If you believe the actor that played Bariston Selmy, Martin has already written books 6 and 7 but reached an agreement with HBO not to publish until after the conclusion of the show. I’ve seen this rumored before but this is the first I’ve seen it stated from anyone connected to the show.
I guess it makes sense from HBO’s point of view. Odds are there are a lot of people who don’t stick through to the end if they already got the conclusion from the books. The only reason I watch is because I couldn’t wait any longer for Martin to finish, and wanted to see the ending for myself rather than have it spoiled on the internet or over hearing someone discuss it. Books already finished? - ( New Window )
I've sort of suspected this for a while and I'm hoping it's accurate. Once it became the TV sensation it did there was no point putting more spoilers out there mid-stream.
The only reason why I think this might be wrong is the fact that the show's writing got worse when the show went past the already published story line.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
Have some common sense folks!
Have some common sense folks!
It's probably wishful thinking, certainly we've all been in the "believe it when we see it" camp for a long time. It wouldn't shock me if they come out with a release date for 6 shortly after the season.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
What about the ridiculous plot to go north of the wall to get a wight to convince Cersei to stand down and then his ridiculous opinion to trust her? Hasn't he "always known what she is"?
Pretty much everything outside of the Varys execution scene was awful IMO.
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keeps piling on Tyrion - he's been established as being an intelligent character, but that doesn't necessarily translate to him being a brilliant military strategist.
I think his missteps are reasonable considering that much of what they have been trying to accomplish with Dany trying to overtake Kings Landing should be out of his realm of knowledge.
What about the ridiculous plot to go north of the wall to get a wight to convince Cersei to stand down and then his ridiculous opinion to trust her? Hasn't he "always known what she is"?
How about take 16 minutes with three dragons and take out all the scorpions before negotiating? I'd be pissed off if I was Dani as well. She got duped by a bunch of morons with no idea what they were doing. I mean, her nephew won't even bone her.
As for killing "innocents", look at strategic bombing by all sides in World War II. Dresden is a good example because the war was all but over and Dresden wasn't a military target.
As far as I know, no cities were bombed in WW2 that belonged to a nation that had surrendered.
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In comment 14441450 Jay on the Island said:
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In comment 14441422 BrettNYG10 said:
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Why did Tyrion rat out Varys? Why didn't Dany kill Tyrion as well?
That scene felt rushed. Maybe I missed something.
I didn't mind the major plot points of the episode. I thought this was the best of the season. But there was still some rushing. And the Euron scene was idiotic.
When he saw Varys approach Jon he was forced to rat him out. Part of Tyrion knows that Varys is right but he was tried to convince himself that Dany is good deep inside. He still tried to save Cersei at the very end even after learning that she hired Bronn to kill him. I don't like how the turned Tyrion into a constant fuckup.
She may still kill Tyrion, especially after he let Jaime go. Again as I stated above, this could be where Bronn comes back in to save Tyrion's skin again. Then the Bronn getting Highgarden scene would make sense. With Tyrion and Jaime gone he'd get nothing
I think Jon kills her and Tyrion ends up on the Iron Throne due to Jon not wanting to rule
Bran becomes the King.
My guess for next week is she tries to have a trial and kill Tyrion for treason. I bet this is where the Bronn story line comes back in, because he needs to save him to keep Highgarden. He may kill Dany for example and then Jon takes the throne. Or perhaps Jon continues to refuse it and Sansa/Bran/Gendry take it. I don't think Dany comes out of next week the victor. They all know what she is now.
Jon is going to kill Dany, then head North.
I think this difference is the dragon who was shot didn't have a rider, Dany was on the one this week. Also that was a surprise attack whereas this week she knew they were waiting for her, so she adjusted her attack accordingly. When she knew the shots were coming she could dodge them, just like in Season 7
My verdict still stands:
Episodes #2 and #5 were good (and episode #5 had some tremendous scenes such as the conversation between Dany and Tyrion).
Episodes #1, #3, and #4 were left wanting.
If they finish this up with a very strong #6, I will feel they redeemed themselves.
My point was simply this: there are plenty of examples throughout history of civilians simply being slaughtered to generate fear.
Since 9/11 I've had several recurring apocalyptic nightmares, one of which is buildings falling on me in Manhattan. I don't think it's a coincidence I had those nightmares again last night. It may not have been a conscious decision to evoke it, but it's part of our national subconscience at this point (if that makes any sense; I don't really no the right psych terms). I think the Arya fleeing scenes were incredibly well done.