First of all happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers and hell even the mother f@& $?3?s on here.
Not making the same mistake like last week this will be the only place I’ll be online untill after it airs. Well maybe some golf clash. I’m sure leaks will be out there as the episode draws closer.
Battle of Mother’s Day the mother of dragons vs “pregnant “ Cersei. Don’t think more than half the episode will be battle but could be epic. I think the death toll will be high this episode since most everyone somehow survived the BoW. Maybe a little foreshadowing but the episode Tywin died was on Father’s Day could his daughter have the same fate tonight?
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Read this link if interested for full detail.
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that. Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
fine Bowls, but this quote is just patently fucking absurd:
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"It is my hope that in the future, writers of television and films will consider having cultural and/or mental health consultants on staff, especially when writing storylines dealing with trauma, shock, and horror in order to be conscientious about the potential effects the particular episode or scene may have on the viewers."
Are you kidding, she has been showing signs of being like her dad for 3 seasons now. Wah, wah, I was on team Dany and she isn't going to win, wah.
Basically, the Dany character took a huge turn from her resume and this has fans confused and hurt. I agree.
And please don’t tell me she toasted those two warriors who would not bend the knee. They had a choice and chose to be toasted. That is not all on Dany. And I don’t want to hear about the 163 she crucified either. They got what they deserved too. Again, it’s not like they were poor little innocents either. The thousands toasted in this last episode were nobodies and Dany just doesn’t toast them.
But just look at all the good she has done for countless number of slaves and downtrodden people. She freed them and gave them hope. And now GOT wants us to believe the Mad Gene rose up and made her become this monster. Sorry.....we loyal fans for 7 seasons ain’t buying that. Dany out of character. - ( New Window )
rewatch the series and pay closer attention. Ive been doing that and now, knowing what we now know, the signs were always there.
And there are a ton of YouTube videos out there now that show her dark side for years, and how she was counseled out of even darker impulses. Those refusing to acknowledge this have a strange vested interest in the character's "goodness."
Exactly - it's not that it's implausible that it could have happened, just poorly written in the way it happened since the battle was won and she could easily have booked it straight into Cersei's window to get the exact revenge she'd longed for. The core justification for intentionally "burning them all" is that she went mad, which IMO is just a cop out. Especially since almost everything that presumably drove her mad the last 2 seasons was also poorly written. Losing all of her allies/advisors except the one who has been wrong more often than Marc Ross, losing the dragon north of the wall, losing her second dragon and missandei, etc.
Yes - if they'd written the last 2 seasons better people wouldn't be complaining about how poorly written these last 2 seasons have been.
It's not just the slave masters. She burned down the Dothraki leadership... literally locked them insider their hut and burned them alive. She threatened to literally have her dragons burn down another city that refused to allow her admittance. I keep saying the same thing... if you go back and re-watch the series from the start, you'll see she has a dark side. And as detailed earlier in this thread, her personal losses have been immense.
Dany will be one of the most tragic of the tragic figures.
the true heir to the Targaryen throne.
People complaining about Dany, didn't understand Dany.
this was expected (maybe I didn't expect the extent), but definitely not surprising.
However, I'm sure this will prove to be a fatal mistake for her.
How did she not kill many (most?) of the unsullied or remaining Dothraki and the Northern army with Jon?
My surprise was more than she's just killing everyone.
Once Grey worm and the unsullied attacked the Lannister army who had dropped their swords the crowds were mixed IMO.
And that's exactly the point that some here are not getting. That even though it's based on a book that this is still a tv series - it's not going to crawl to a finish. There has to be dramatic moments that grab you're attention and give you a reaction.
If you're someone that needs things to be stretched out so that every detail can be sorted and every action explained then you should just wait for the novelization.
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She killed the slavemasters! How can she be bad? Well forget for a second that slavery was a common practice in these cities and lots of "good" people owned slaves. She enjoyed torturing them. Did all those slavemasters treat their slaves harshly? I doubt it. And she constantly had to be talked down from the edge of doing drastic action. Which as we know once a Tarq embraces a violent nature things have a tendency not to end well. People are entitled to their opinions, but this Dany outrage is retarded and it makes me upset there are so many people that lack basic critical thinking skills.
It's not just the slave masters. She burned down the Dothraki leadership... literally locked them insider their hut and burned them alive. She threatened to literally have her dragons burn down another city that refused to allow her admittance. I keep saying the same thing... if you go back and re-watch the series from the start, you'll see she has a dark side. And as detailed earlier in this thread, her personal losses have been immense.
Please Eric.....don’t tell me you weren’t high-fiving your wife when she burned down that hut. As I recall, those guys were male chauvinistic pigs and treated women like scum. Those guys got what they deserved and the people were better off without those sleezeballs running the show.
Has anyone provided evidence that shows she ruthlessly killed poor and downtrodden people, like they showed at KL?
Slavemasters
Sleezeball Dothraki men
Two soldiers who wouldn’t bend the knee
Come on people.....this is all you GOT?
Plus the big difference with her and Jon Snow is that he always felt terrible about having to Someone even when they dwarves it, while she seemed to relish the killing.
The feminist angle is ridiculous considering, perhaps more than any show, the most powerful characters are (were) women: Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arya. Jon's really the only powerful male left, and he's basically a bumbling idiot. Granted everyone follows him because of his battle success, but he has 0 strategic insight.
I think they did it great early on, which is why many missed the undertones. But once the source material was gone, they did a much poorer job and then felt like they had to force it on us this season to justify it.
I mentioned it earlier, but a simple thing like a stray arrow hitting Drogon after the bells chimed would've made her motivations for destroying everything that much clearer. Would've played on her paranoia and at this point her distrust of Tyrion (bells are just a trap) and her love of her "children".
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it just wasn’t done well, especially in a rushed season.
Exactly - it's not that it's implausible that it could have happened, just poorly written in the way it happened since the battle was won and she could easily have booked it straight into Cersei's window to get the exact revenge she'd longed for. The core justification for intentionally "burning them all" is that she went mad, which IMO is just a cop out. Especially since almost everything that presumably drove her mad the last 2 seasons was also poorly written. Losing all of her allies/advisors except the one who has been wrong more often than Marc Ross, losing the dragon north of the wall, losing her second dragon and missandei, etc.
The justification is t that she just went mad. Where are you getting that from?
The justification has been set up clearly this season and was even laid out perfectly in this episode with here talk with Jon Snow prior to the battle. Aside from combat scenes, every single scene with Dany since Jon told her his lineage has been about her being an outsider in Westeros and not having a single soul outside of the folks (all but one dead) from Essos that believes in or loves her. She isn’t misa here. Considering the new challenge to her throne she has decided that the only way she can gain and retain power is to rule by fear. She literally says that to Jon Snow, it couldn’t be more clear. She hasn’t all of a sudden gone mad- she’s made a calculated decision. Sure, it’s violent and sadistic, but she has always been violent and sadistic.
Plus the big difference with her and Jon Snow is that he always felt terrible about having to Someone even when they dwarves it, while she seemed to relish the killing.
I don’t recall that ......can you fill me in on the details. Sorry, but when you get on Medicare, you start to lose some memory.....
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
WTF is wrong with you?
She has been building to this moment her whole life, from the time she was sold to the Dothraki and "okayed" the killing of Viserys giving her the best known claim to the iron throne, and accumulating her army to help her claim that throne.
Even Jorah said it, she's a conqueror not a ruler.
the backlash and surprise is by people who are vapid.
The fact she chose to rule by fear rather than love was blatant, in fact she said it.
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Toward poor innocent people with no power, no history of abuse to ones fellow man, and with clean hands. Please provide a link of the past episode so I can refresh my memory. I don’t recall her ever killing INNOCENT people who did not harm others or take advantage of them. Thanks.
I am of the opinion what she did this past episode was totally out of her character and was therefore done “out of the blue” as a result apparently of her deep anguish over losing everyone important to her...Jorah, Melisandei, a dragon, Jon’s love, Varys betraying her, and all the men at Winterfell and Essos wanting a leader with a cock to rule over them. I can accept that she had a one time lapse of reasoning. But unless shown proof, I do not believe there has been any foreshadowing of a ruthless heartless propensity to kill poor and innocent people for no real reason. To the best of my memory I see Dany as a benevolent freer of the oppressed and judge over abusive power hungry people.
I await your proof with a link. Thank you.
PS. Do not send me a link when she had her ruthless brother having hot gold poured on him, torched the two soldiers for not bending the knee, killing the 163 slave traders, or killing the Dothraki leaders burning them in that hut. I don’t find any of them meeting the qualifications of killing innocents with clean hands.
WTF is wrong with you?
She has been building to this moment her whole life, from the time she was sold to the Dothraki and "okayed" the killing of Viserys giving her the best known claim to the iron throne, and accumulating her army to help her claim that throne.
Even Jorah said it, she's a conqueror not a ruler.
the backlash and surprise is by people who are vapid.
The fact she chose to rule by fear rather than love was blatant, in fact she said it.
That is your rebuttal....no proof but rather disparaging name calling instead. And this makes you right?
It's like asking someone in 2006 to show you proof the NY Giants were capable of winning a Super Bowl.
your request was inane, you deserve whatever you get on this thread.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
The justification is t that she just went mad. Where are you getting that from?
The justification has been set up clearly this season and was even laid out perfectly in this episode with here talk with Jon Snow prior to the battle. Aside from combat scenes, every single scene with Dany since Jon told her his lineage has been about her being an outsider in Westeros and not having a single soul outside of the folks (all but one dead) from Essos that believes in or loves her. She isn’t misa here. Considering the new challenge to her throne she has decided that the only way she can gain and retain power is to rule by fear. She literally says that to Jon Snow, it couldn’t be more clear. She hasn’t all of a sudden gone mad- she’s made a calculated decision. Sure, it’s violent and sadistic, but she has always been violent and sadistic.
Ruling by fear doesn't require burning down the entire city - which not only included killing women and children but also probably many of her own soldiers. Destroying the red keep probably would have served the purpose just fine.
The 'madness' angle comes straight from the creators who I believe said this wasn't a predetermined plan but rather a spontaneous decision in the moment for vengeance.
Look I'm not one of those people who nitpicks the air speed of dragon flight, or the effectiveness of scorpions one episode to the next, or any of the other minutia of trench warfare strategies vs. an army of the dead - but I do think it's fair to be critical of the way they've rushed these last 2 seasons and injected a bunch of major plot lines with contrived events. Even if you don't dislike the way the heel turn went in this past episode, would you not agree that some of the major events the past 2 seasons that led to that point have been ridiculous? The seal team six Missandei kidnapping included.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
This is correct. There were multiple times she was talked out of doing something more ruthless by her advisors. They toned her down time and time again. Without them there anymore, thereis no one to tell her no. Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
and why is that?
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Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
and why is that?
Exactly...Tyrion has his head up Cersei’s arse still wanting to believe she can be good and every piece of advice he has given Dany has been a setback and crashed and burned.
Dany should hire a FOOT instead of a HAND.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
It's like asking someone in 2006 to show you proof the NY Giants were capable of winning a Super Bowl.
your request was inane, you deserve whatever you get on this thread.
If you guys are satisfied with this mad gene mental illness theory, fine by me. I respect your opinion.
I call it sloppy elementary school writing with very little thought put into it. To all of a sudden make her a killer of innocents because she has this mental illness and then to make Jaime run back to Cersei just like that and then to make Arya do a complete 180 when Hound merely said you don’t want to be like me......I o those are all examples of writers who just want to go home quickly....if this pleases you, good for you. You can believe what you want. I believe this crappy childish writing has tarnished GOT’s great name and is thus causing so many fans to say goodbye with a bad taste. You should be like me and say, I respect your opinion too, thank you for respecting mine.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
if it's genetic, very likely.
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In comment 14445989 pjcas18 said:
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
There is history in my family of suicide.....does that mean it will affect me too?
if it's genetic, very likely.
So you believe there is a suicide gene in the DNA....prove it....do you have scientific proof that they have identified a suicide gene?
I said "IF" it is genetic (suicide in your family) then you very likely may get it - like diabetes or breast cancer.
The claim, in this fictional story, is that because Targaryen's are inbred, madness runs rampant throughout their lineage.
Yes, I called you obtuse.
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you just choose to ignore/minimize it. Take the 163 masters from Mereen. Some of them were against nailing the slave children to crosses so why did they "deserve" to be nailed to a cross (alive) in retaliation?
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
This is correct. There were multiple times she was talked out of doing something more ruthless by her advisors. They toned her down time and time again. Without them there anymore, thereis no one to tell her no. Tyrion tried but she doesn't listen to him anymore.
I think you are right here PP but I don’t recall the specific details as to who or what group of people she was upset over. I SERIOUSLY doubt they were poor little nobodies who have done no harm to anyone.
Nevertheless, the fact that she was willing to defer to the wisdom of her “wise counselors” also shows me a positive attribute of being able to listen and not being so arrogant that only your opinion matters.
And don’t forget all the times she took Tyrion’s advice that ended up being costly and was bad advice.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
"going mad" is an easy cop out in lieu of writing something that made more sense. She had been in far worse situations that seemed desperate and hopeless that didn't drive her mad - situations Aerys hadn't had to go through. Also did plenty of positive things Aerys never did. Reducing her to her father just lacked the nuance that made this story different from most others. There have been plenty of gruesome twists in this story that didn't offend people's sensibilities and are among the signature episodes of the show - because they were well written/setup/logical from some perspective beyond "madness". that includes stuff that's happened in the seasons beyond the books. Cersei blowing up the sept for example. There were plenty of ways they could have ended this story with Dany doing something evil that wouldn't have been so heavy handed.
She already had the Throne by the time she made her decision to destroy the city.
In my opinion, there has not been one single shred of foreshadowing in the entire show that would point to her murdering a million innocent people AFTER getting what she has always wanted.
There's a simple way to fix all of this and this is the most baffling thing to me. All they had to do was:
1. Delete the ridiculous Iron Fleet scene from Ep4
2. Dany feels alone and betrayed in the world post Missandei's death, does not allow Jon to ride Rhaegal
3. Attacks Kings Landing with 2 dragons, everything goes as we saw
4. They ring the bells and surrender, but one more scorpion is left and out of nowhere, kills Rhaegal.
5. This sends Dany over the edge, leading to her destroying the entire city.
Instead we get a random, glossed over dragon death with no reaction from Dany or Jon and a total 180 from Dany regarding innocent people after already winning the Throne. Very sloppy to me
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in the family of this behavior. When faced with possible defeat King Aerys ordered Jamie to burn down Kings Landing and ignite the wildfire - which would have killed innocents - similar to Drogon killing them (which led to Jaime killing Aerys). which sort of made a nice symmetry that the wildfire was ignited when Dany destroyed Kings Landing.
the extent of destruction might have been shocking, but the ruthless, tenacious, callous manner in which Targaryen's "rule" should not have been. Dany is a product of incest, her mother and father were brother and sister, she was destined to go mad and glimpses had been showing throughout the story, it peaked last Sunday.
regardless if it offended some people's perception or delicate sensibilities.
"going mad" is an easy cop out in lieu of writing something that made more sense. She had been in far worse situations that seemed desperate and hopeless that didn't drive her mad - situations Aerys hadn't had to go through. Also did plenty of positive things Aerys never did. Reducing her to her father just lacked the nuance that made this story different from most others. There have been plenty of gruesome twists in this story that didn't offend people's sensibilities and are among the signature episodes of the show - because they were well written/setup/logical from some perspective beyond "madness". that includes stuff that's happened in the seasons beyond the books. Cersei blowing up the sept for example. There were plenty of ways they could have ended this story with Dany doing something evil that wouldn't have been so heavy handed.
Not true. Under Aerys the real fourished. He began as a great ruler. Over time though, he became jealous of Tywin Lannister because as the hand of the king, Tywin was so efficient and did so much good, people felt like Tywin was really the ruler of Westeros.
Tywin, Aerys and Robert Baratheon's father (I forget his name) were all best friends as youths.
Aery's became more and more paranoid and even set out to intentionally embarass Tywin to put more glory on himself.
I saw shades of that with Dany as she saw the praise being lavished on Jon Snow.
to me, she broke. simple as that. She knew even if she sat on that iron throne it would be like her father and Tywin, people would love Jon and bend the knee to her to her face, but away they would not respect her.
What we saw was the Targaryen rage.
Due to pacing or time contstraints maybe they didn't build it up enough for people to find believable, but I did.
if people don't, I don't mind, to each his own.
Or her initial response to the revolts in Yunkai (Astapor?) when she wanted to send the Second Sons to destroy them (had to be talked out of this by Jorah). What did she think would happen when she left a total power vacuum behind to former slaves that knew of nothing else?
I’m not aware of how many if any masters were opposed to the nailing of the 163 children. Why didn’t they stop it? When you promote something evil like slave trading, don’t be upset if you get some evil back at you.
Queen D merely was administering good old fashion eye for eye tooth for tooth justice in Mereen.....163 for 163.
Mereen - ( New Window )
Later during the torching of KL the looks on Jon's face tell me he knows this (Dany's reign) cannot be allowed to continue. IMO.
Later during the torching of KL the looks on Jon's face tell me he knows this (Dany's reign) cannot be allowed to continue. IMO.
I too believe the writers want Dany offed but I don’t think it will be the fair haired boy called Jon. I think Bronn will have those honors. Remember, he wants HighGarden, and in order to secure that claim Tyrion has to be alive (Jaime isn’t).
I believe the Queen will RIGHTFULLY put Tyrion on trial for his insubordination by freeing Jaime to allow Cersei to escape. Tyrion was wrong in doing this and should rightfully be fried, and he probably would be......safe Bronn rescuing him.
And then the whole world can rejoice.....ding dong the Queen is dead, which old queen, the wicked mad queen.....ding dong the wicked queen is dead.