First of all happy Mother’s Day to all the mothers and hell even the mother f@& $?3?s on here.
Not making the same mistake like last week this will be the only place I’ll be online untill after it airs. Well maybe some golf clash. I’m sure leaks will be out there as the episode draws closer.
Battle of Mother’s Day the mother of dragons vs “pregnant “ Cersei. Don’t think more than half the episode will be battle but could be epic. I think the death toll will be high this episode since most everyone somehow survived the BoW. Maybe a little foreshadowing but the episode Tywin died was on Father’s Day could his daughter have the same fate tonight?
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
"absolutely laughable" for two seasons? Come on.
My comment has nothing to do with thinking that things are above criticism. For several seasons, the show has had issues with pacing, plot holes, and stupid characters doing stupid things all because they couldn't take two seconds to ask the other character what was going on. Flaws with the show are nothing new.
But people are more possessive now. It's the final season and the final episodes. I't human nature to to be more hypersensitive to what is going on in the final episodes. It's like being more sensitive to a player's flaws or poor tendencies late in the game or in a playoff game than at any other point.
I just think those frustrations and criticisms are having an outsized effect on the quality of the episodes themselves as a whole.
I'd like to make a correction, the arrow on this show has been pointing down for me for multiple seasons now, not just now. Basically since the Dorne debacle. It got better after and then sunk again. In other words, this isn't knee-jerk for me, i've been skeptical of the shows direction for years now.
That said I've definitely given credit where I felt its due during that time frame. Some very good episodes sprinkled in with the bad ones. Bad as a whole I haven't enjoyed the series as much as I did when it peaked, for me, in seasons 3 and into 4.
I imagine the former will outnumber the latter 20 to 1?
Seems to me that Dany was all for justice and compassion in how she wanted to rule. She cared about it, but it was always secondary to getting the iron throne back from the usurpers that took it from her family. It was her throne.
Often, being compassionate helped her get more powerful. It helped her gain the trust of those at Slaver's Bay and get the unsullied to fight for her and be loyal to her.
But she was always showing a maniacal side any time she felt her chance at the iron throne was truly threatened. Most of the time, she had advisors convincing her to hold back or that showing more compassion and peace would help her out in the long run.
But the willingness for violence was always there.
Over time and particularly in this season, we saw her position weakened further and further. Not only were those she cared about dying, but some of those people who she no longer had at her side were the ones asking her to be more patient.
Her positioned weakened and her restraints were falling away. On top of that, the one thing she felt completely confident in was that she was the rightful heir to the throne. That as long as she had the dragons and the army, she would be the Queen because she had the army and was the last Targaryen.
Then Jon's truth came out and it trumps her claim for the iron throne. He's a male Targaryen and on top of that he is actually beloved by his people.
She's losing her grip on her claim to the throne, she's losing armies, dragons, advisors, and losing notion of being the ruler who would be beloved.
And like half the Targaryens due to inbreeding, she was predisposed to becoming mad.
I've had people tell me for years that it hasn't been rushed and it was always planned to be this long and nothing at all is ever wrong with GoT ever. No idea why the blind loyalty, its perfectly ok to say "hey, shit, I thought this would be better". Don't we all do that with the Giants? What's the difference? There's varying degrees of criticisms, some more aggressive than others, but its perfectly fine to not enjoy the show as much as in years past.
By the way, I fully admit closing a show is hard. Very few shows end on a high note.My favorite show of all time (The Wire) had an underwhelming 5th season. Breaking Bad's final season wasn't great, IMO. The Soprano's peaked early and fizzled out too, IMO. It happens, and its ok to not enjoy it as much.
But I'll always look back at Season 7, Episode 6: Beyond the Wall at the turning point of this series. An absolutely laughable plot line designed to get the NK a dragon that was disguised as an attempt to get Cersei to join the war against the undead, a war that they end up not even needing her for.
All down hill from there.
The show writers clearly (IMO) had no idea what to do with the NK/white walkers story line.
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
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and I'll certainly take stock of the moments in which Dany argued for or exercised justice, freedom and mercy. I'll then surely compare those to the moments in which she was surprisingly brutal.
I imagine the former will outnumber the latter 20 to 1?
Seems to me that Dany was all for justice and compassion in how she wanted to rule. She cared about it, but it was always secondary to getting the iron throne back from the usurpers that took it from her family. It was her throne.
Often, being compassionate helped her get more powerful. It helped her gain the trust of those at Slaver's Bay and get the unsullied to fight for her and be loyal to her.
But she was always showing a maniacal side any time she felt her chance at the iron throne was truly threatened. Most of the time, she had advisors convincing her to hold back or that showing more compassion and peace would help her out in the long run.
But the willingness for violence was always there.
Over time and particularly in this season, we saw her position weakened further and further. Not only were those she cared about dying, but some of those people who she no longer had at her side were the ones asking her to be more patient.
Her positioned weakened and her restraints were falling away. On top of that, the one thing she felt completely confident in was that she was the rightful heir to the throne. That as long as she had the dragons and the army, she would be the Queen because she had the army and was the last Targaryen.
Then Jon's truth came out and it trumps her claim for the iron throne. He's a male Targaryen and on top of that he is actually beloved by his people.
She's losing her grip on her claim to the throne, she's losing armies, dragons, advisors, and losing notion of being the ruler who would be beloved.
And like half the Targaryens due to inbreeding, she was predisposed to becoming mad.
I'd add that it wasn't just the "maniacal side" it was a need for revenge. Whether it was revenge for Khal Drogo or the child slaves of Mereen or in the house of the undying or even her brother's death, she often went against her more cautious advisers when it came to revenge. And while I think they did a poor job linking them with the crossover between E4 and E5, I think a big part of her final heel turn was the murder of Missandei. Hence the shots of Grey Worm right before she took off.
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In comment 14441941 Zeke's Alibi said:
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
I don't personally see the parallel. Kings Landing had surrendered, it wasn't a punishment like the crucifixion or a threat like in Qarth or wherever that was.
This was a slaughter. Everything she had worked for was hers and she made the decision to destroy the innocent. I'm not sure you'll find much foreshadowing for that.
And I'm not against the heel turn in general. I was all for a huge twist like this. But is this even a twist at this point?
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
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In comment 14441941 Zeke's Alibi said:
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about Dany's heel turn is asinine. They have been setting this up for years. A huge part of her character is the little moments where you start to think is the breaker of chains about to go full Targ. Everything was falling apart around her and she couldn't trust anyone and she fell victim to her own nature.
In my view, and this is only my view (it is all in the eye of the beholder), you can watch the series 100 times and not even remotely think they foreshadowed a moment in which she had a clear advantage and decided to slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent people.
See giants#1's post above about three clear examples. Dany has actually had people crucified. Also, the first slave city she came across she threatened to burn down to the ground if they didn't let her in the gates. It's there if you choose to see it.
The people she had crucified were masters after they'd crucified slaves on her path to mereen, and she certainly has a long history of 'an eye for an eye'. But that's the key difference as this was the first time she did something that wasn't just an eye for an eye, at least to my recollection.
So to me the point stands that there were a lot more comments in her past about being a defender of the innocent and vulnerable, and specifically being different than her father, then evidence that she was developing a similar madness. Ruthless violence against her enemies? Yes. But meaningless violence against innocent people, no. That was under developed, as was any paranoid break from reality.
The scorpions looked useless now because for some reason they decided to make them look all-powerful and immensely accurate in episode #4. (Again, one of my problems with #4). Hitting a moving target in the air from distance should be hard as hell (not to mention reload time).
Before the scene where she hit the scorpions from behind on the wall, I said to my wife, "She should hit them from behind the wall!" (I felt good about that prediction!) (grin)
I don't personally see the parallel. Kings Landing had surrendered, it wasn't a punishment like the crucifixion or a threat like in Qarth or wherever that was.
This was a slaughter. Everything she had worked for was hers and she made the decision to destroy the innocent. I'm not sure you'll find much foreshadowing for that.
And I'm not against the heel turn in general. I was all for a huge twist like this. But is this even a twist at this point?
That's just the writers screwing up some of the little details (again). They could've done something like having Cersei hide some scorpions among the civilians (well within Cersei's character to sacrifice civilians) and then having one of those scorpions shoot at and land a glancing blow on Drogon after the bells have chimed. Then Dany, worried about losing her last child, goes mad...
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all of a sudden becoming useless was dumb, but when the rest of the show actually makes sense from a plot and storytelling standpoint I can actually look past things like that. The problem with some of these other episodes is that they made no sense and then people would pile on with all the inconsistencies.
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
Oh no I agree with that totally. As a Navy guy watching Euron nail 3 shots on a boat with a fucking crossbow was immediately apparent to me how stupid that was. If they wanted to go that route why didn't they just have him ambush them at Dragonstone. Set up some scorpions behind the fortress walls, boom she doesn't see it coming and now you dropped the dragon in a way that actually makes sense. Creating them into some superweapon was stupid, but once you make it canon you should stay consistent.
I was never a fan of Dany(and definitely did not want to see her on the throne) to begin with, but I just did not see the carefully plotted descent into that type of depravity. I could almost even see it if she was in danger of losing the battle to Cersei since her identity was based on reclaiming what was rightfully hers. But, she was about to achieve all her dreams and even though Jon sort of betrayed her in terms of telling the secret to Sansa, he had always remained loyal to her in that she would be the sole ruler of the seven kingdoms. How many times did he have to tell her "You are my queen." As someone said above me, she was ruthless in some of the events used to say that this was foreshadowed, but it never appeared to be in the spectrum of likely possibilities that she was a mass-murderer if everything was going her way. I dunno, her transformation to what she became last night seemed forced and over the top.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
which is the approach Aerys took when he was going mad.
He had the wild fire all ready to go and stored and as the Baratheon and Lannister armies approach Kings Landing he ordered the city burned and he ordered Jaime to bring him Tywin's head.
In that case Jaime saved the lives of the innocents (and his father) by killing Aerys and being branded a King Slayer (which was technically true, but unfair) by Ned Stark.
In this case Tyrion could not convince Dany to spare the lives of innocents, but in juxtaposed situations the Targaryen instinct was to scorch the earth only with Aerys it was stopped before the bulk of the damage could be done.
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
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In comment 14441976 Zeke's Alibi said:
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all of a sudden becoming useless was dumb, but when the rest of the show actually makes sense from a plot and storytelling standpoint I can actually look past things like that. The problem with some of these other episodes is that they made no sense and then people would pile on with all the inconsistencies.
I'd flip it. The flaw was in the scorpions being as lethal as they were E4, though some of that was overblown since a handful hit Rhaegar despite them showing dozens missing. Should've just had Rhaegar die in the battle of Winterfell, especially since you couldn't see what happened after he went down anyway. But I feel like everyone had been predicting "his" death in the battle for the 2+ year layoff and the writers wanted to mix things up.
Oh no I agree with that totally. As a Navy guy watching Euron nail 3 shots on a boat with a fucking crossbow was immediately apparent to me how stupid that was. If they wanted to go that route why didn't they just have him ambush them at Dragonstone. Set up some scorpions behind the fortress walls, boom she doesn't see it coming and now you dropped the dragon in a way that actually makes sense. Creating them into some superweapon was stupid, but once you make it canon you should stay consistent.
It's also extreme nitpicking. If they fired off dozens of shots and one was lucky enough to land a lethal shot through the dragon's neck while the other 99% missed, no one (or very few) would bat an eye even the result is the same (i.e. dead dragon). But they went for the dramatic effect and had 3-4 arrows hitting him in succession, which just seemed outrageous for the technology.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
I don't think it was just she wanted the throne, she felt it was owed to her and all others on the throne or with a claim to the throne were userpers. she felt she had a right to the throne and it created a rage inside her that would not be quelled.
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
\I'd like to make a correction, the arrow on this show has been pointing down for me for multiple seasons now, not just now. Basically since the Dorne debacle. It got better after and then sunk again. In other words, this isn't knee-jerk for me, i've been skeptical of the shows direction for years now.
That said I've definitely given credit where I felt its due during that time frame. Some very good episodes sprinkled in with the bad ones. Bad as a whole I haven't enjoyed the series as much as I did when it peaked, for me, in seasons 3 and into 4.
I generally agree with this. There have been remarkable episodes and moments over the last few years, but I don't think it's as good as it used to be.
Many of the flaws this season are similar to the flaws it has had for a long time. It just seems to me that much of the reaction this season completely disregards that those same flaws have existed with the show.
Was it just an unrealistic assumption that somehow this season would be different? Do some fans feel cheated that the season is only six episodes long, despite the running times being longer, because of how long they had to wait for this season?
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the wolves would play a bigger role in the story?
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
I actually mean in the books
Hence the tense stare down between Grey Worm/Jon and the Lannister army. Once the Lannister army dropped their weapons, Dany and Drogon should've retreated back behind their lines while Grey Worm/Jon led the "cleanup" (take prisoners, track down Cersie, etc).
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
Agreed, but by over the top what I meant was how quickly it was sprung upon us. She went from one episode drinking and trying to be nice with Sansa to the next a disheveled person with her hair undone and her mind mad. If she took a decent toward that darkness I wished it was more carefully plotted than what we saw here. Last episode, she goes from feeing a bit of an outcast at a party to the next episode lighting the whole town on fire and killing almost every innocent civilian.
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In comment 14442006 ron mexico said:
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the wolves would play a bigger role in the story?
The wolves were extremely expensive to create. Putting them in at all was another example of stupid fan service this show has become. They just wanted people to be like oh look GHOST! KEWL! There was no reason to include them at all after helping Jon when he was in the Nights watch.
I actually mean in the books
I think they'll have a larger role in the books (if they're ever written). The early parts of the show where it tracks the books had larger roles for the Wolves (Ghost at the wall, Bran warging into Summer).
she killed the innocents because they did not love her. She decided to would take the throne and rule by fear.
She had a choice, and you could see her sitting on the dragon contemplating which way the coin would end up like Vaerys said
it landed on tails for this one.
I have seen nothing in this show that would suggest that she would murder a million people that just surrendered like that though. They overdid it, IMO.
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I understand your view, but she had decided to kill people - with varying degrees of "guilt" - in horrific ways for years. Even go back to her expression when she saw her piece-of-shit brother die. After she was given the Dothraki, she went completely badass and had their masters all executed. She had that one guy locked alive in a vault.
As I posted above, I never completely bought into her self-aggrandizing "I'm going to free the people" rhetoric. "I'm going to break the wheel!"
She wanted the thrown. Anything that got in her way was going to be done away with.
I don't think it was just she wanted the throne, she felt it was owed to her and all others on the throne or with a claim to the throne were userpers. she felt she had a right to the throne and it created a rage inside her that would not be quelled.
She's been marginalized/ignored/shunned all season long - and losing Missandei was the last straw for her.
For Dany, it's either burn everyone or pout with another cup of Starbucks.
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I think she killed them because the Lannister army was mixed in with them and she was willing to tolerate those casualties in order to wipe out the entire Lannister army. I think she'll make that explanation herself to Jon Snow in Ep. 6.
she killed the innocents because they did not love her. She decided to would take the throne and rule by fear.
She had a choice, and you could see her sitting on the dragon contemplating which way the coin would end up like Vaerys said
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They say every time a Targaryen is born, the gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.
it landed on tails for this one.
The whole thing certainly felt like the outcome of a coin flip... just one made by the writers.
It seems to me that they were able to hit and kill the dragon when Dany and her dragon didn't see the scorpion arrows and weren't trying to avoid them. But once they became aware of it and tried to avoid them, they weren't hit last week and weren't hit this week.
Is that unrealistic? Who knows? It's a dragon, and it's a fictional adventure story.
The way a hero survives or escapes danger in every action story ever told defies rational rules. Just last night, Arya survived a stampede, concussion, falling buildings, dragon fire, and early onset lung cancer from the debris. Should we dissect how that was possible?
Should we complain that the Hound managed to keep his eyes after the undead Mountain used his thumbs to press into them as hard as he could? How did the Mountain not kill him after the first few blows given his supernatural strength? How do the main characters keep surviving the close combat in the battles?
What is it about the scorpions and the dragons that had people so up in arms with rules of physical harm?
Except for a few northern lords, nobody's ever heard of Jon Snow.
The shot before she starts torching civilians clearly shows the Lannister soldiers mixed in among them. The shots from Arya's point of view later on make that a harder position to defend though, as there are no soldiers to be seen and Dany is still on a rampage.
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I actually mean in the books
I think they'll have a larger role in the books (if they're ever written). The early parts of the show where it tracks the books had larger roles for the Wolves (Ghost at the wall, Bran warging into Summer).
In the books Jon and Arya wargs into their wolves - at least at night, anyway.
Nah, her meltdown was even worse than many realize. She started uncontrollable fires in a city filled with her own soldiers. They eventually recognized that and withdrew, but she could have destroyed much of her own army.
She knew what she was doing. Her blood was up. Much of episode #5 was about bloodlust. Cersi talked about it when they were hiding during Stanis' assault. She talked about bloodlust then and what would happen to the civilians. Bloodlust is real and we still see it in recent wars.
"For Dany, it's either burn everyone or pout with another cup of Starbucks."
By the way, I fully admit closing a show is hard. Very few shows end on a high note.My favorite show of all time (The Wire) had an underwhelming 5th season. Breaking Bad's final season wasn't great, IMO. The Soprano's peaked early and fizzled out too, IMO. It happens, and its ok to not enjoy it as much.
Reason #1003 why Friday Night Lights is my favorite overall TV series: they landed the ending with absolute grace.
An infinitely better ending is Jamie learning that Euron slept with Cersi, and he kills her under the crypt as a crime of passion before they both die.
But they fucking blew it.
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Jon could never tell her enough times that she was his queen because so long as they lived in this world where the world would consider him the rightful heir to the throne via Targaryen bloodlines, she would never feel safe that she would end up on the iron throne.
Also, the point was to turn her into the Mad Queen-- to become a psychopath like her father and like many Targaryens before her. That turn into madness is by definition "over the top."
Agreed, but by over the top what I meant was how quickly it was sprung upon us. She went from one episode drinking and trying to be nice with Sansa to the next a disheveled person with her hair undone and her mind mad. If she took a decent toward that darkness I wished it was more carefully plotted than what we saw here. Last episode, she goes from feeing a bit of an outcast at a party to the next episode lighting the whole town on fire and killing almost every innocent civilian.
In that time, one of her "children" was murdered right next to her, Missandei was slaughtered right in front of her and she watched as the true heir to the Throne via Targaryen bloodlines, Jon, was hailed and beloved by all of the people in the hall. And no matter how many times he told her that she was his queen, she asked him to keep it a secret, but Jon still told the Starks, who told Tyrion and Varys and so now the information was out there.
The idea that she was losing those closest to her when she "played nice" and the feeling that she no longer had a grip on the iron throne (because Jon was going to take it from her even if he didn't intend to) pushed her over the edge, and caused her to go "mad."