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Fallback position if Jones is bad?

Reale01 : 5/12/2019 11:55 am
After some thought, I like that we picked a QB this year and hope they got it right with Jones. I wonder if there wasn't some thought given to a fallback position.

Yes, he was the #6 pick. If he works out it will be a tremendous value as in many ways #6 is cheap for a QB. Other teams have traded multiple #1s or other high picks to move up. Most QBs seem to be picked with picks 1,2, or 3. Also, we had another #1 and a lot of picks in this draft so it could be a good draft regardless of Jones (although he will always be the lightning rod).

If Jones is good it's a home run! However, even if he's not, I do not think we enter QB hell. Next year's QB class is supposed to be very strong. I wonder if we would pass on them in order to give Jones more time? Would we go with the AZ model?

The most important thing in my mind is that they are able to make an accurate judgment on Jones this year.



If Eli plays real well  
Giantz_comeback : 5/12/2019 11:59 am : link
And somehow we are disappointed in Jones progress along in the year then Eli gets an 1 -2 year extension.
Jones would have to run over a traffic cop...  
Milton : 5/12/2019 12:00 pm : link
...for the Giants to adopt the Arizona model.
Ain't happening in 2020. What Arizona did is horrendous IMO.  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/12/2019 12:01 pm : link
You gotta give Jones 2 years. Fire away in 2021 for Lawrence if we can. But gotta give Jones at least a 2 year window.

Just my opinion, worth the paper it's printed on.
So let me get this right  
90.Cal : 5/12/2019 12:10 pm : link
You hope they got it right on Jones...

But you hope they make an accurate judgment on him this year, a year in which he probably will not play, so we can know whether we should take a QB in next years draft...?

Do I have that right?

And if they decide in 300 days that he is not what they thought he was... you dont mind doing what Arizona did, going QB first two years in a row.. even though Rosen had zero shot with that lineup in that limited time to prove he was the guy... you want DJ to do what Rosen couldnt do? And if he doesn't light it up in year 1, you want to possibly go QB in RD 1 next year and move on from DJ...???

Give him time... more than 1 year... if he starts from week 1 okay maybe 1 year is enough... maybe, just maybe but we all know DJ ain't starting week 1.

Next year's draft is loaded with #1 WR's and blue chip Blind Side Blockers. Yeah QB class is good too, but it's should be the perfect draft to build around DJ... shouldn't waste it trying to replace the guy after 1 short year... that's ridiculous.

The fallback is... hell if we didnt hit on the QB at 6... hopefully we got us a pro bowl caliber DT at 17 and a pro bowl caliber CB at 30 and if we hit on those 2 we should be dandy moving forward.

Part of my point  
Reale01 : 5/12/2019 12:12 pm : link
Is that it is not the end of the world or even the next three years. It was a good chance to take IMO. The key will be the Giants ability to make a quick and accurate determination and not waste multiple years on a player who cannot get it done (See Dave Brown).


You HAVE to be right if you trade #6, #17, and next year's #1 to move up to #1. The Giants don"t HAVE to be right but we hope they are.
There is no way they move on after one year  
ron mexico : 5/12/2019 12:13 pm : link
Particularly because he probably won't play too much this year
Here we go with the wrong definition of "QB hell" again.  
robbieballs2003 : 5/12/2019 12:16 pm : link
Look it up. According to Gettleman, even if Jones doesn't work out that is not QB hell to him.
RE: Part of my point  
Mad Mike : 5/12/2019 12:16 pm : link
In comment 14440607 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Is that it is not the end of the world or even the next three years. It was a good chance to take IMO. The key will be the Giants ability to make a quick and accurate determination and not waste multiple years on a player who cannot get it done (See Dave Brown).

I'm not sure how you can compare Dave Brown, who started 53 games for the Giants, to Daniel Jones, who will have started very few, if any, games for the Giants when next year's draft comes around. It's unrealistic to expect an accurate determination that quickly.
Giants need to move on in 2020  
Steve in ATL : 5/12/2019 12:18 pm : link
Not good for Eli or the Giants for him to sign an extension here. Hope that Eli finds a good situation with another team next year. Jones needs to take over in 2020. Sign a stop gap veteran if concerned with Jones. Maybe Tanney.

Love Eli and will be a fan forever.
no, I doubt they:d move him  
aquidneck : 5/12/2019 12:19 pm : link
to fullback...oh wait. sorry. nevermind.
Gotta believe Jones will get 3 years minimum to show something  
PatersonPlank : 5/12/2019 12:21 pm : link
1 sitting behind Eli mostly
1 can be written off as his first year
1 will be his year to show improvement.

It would be very hard for the Giants to give up on their #6 pick before then
RE: Here we go with the wrong definition of  
Jay on the Island : 5/12/2019 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14440612 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Look it up. According to Gettleman, even if Jones doesn't work out that is not QB hell to him.

Thank you, QB hell is having a QB who isn't good enough to win games by himself but isn't bad enough to justify moving on from. Ryan Tannehill, Marcus Mariota, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, Case Keenum, Andy Dalton, Kirk Cousins, Joe Flacco, and Jameis Winston qualify as QB hell.
You want to know what quarterback hell is???  
Larry in Pencilvania : 5/12/2019 12:43 pm : link
In no specific order

Randy Johnson
Norm Snead
Jim Del Gaizo
Joe Pisarcik
Randy Dean
Jerry Golsteyn
Craig Morton

That screams a decade of QB HELL. Even after drafting Phil Simms they couldn't get out of it because Parcells went back to Scott Brunner. More QB HELL!!. Not until Simms was locked in as the starter did the Giants exit purgatory.

This franchise, like him or not, has to go all in on Daniel Jones. You can't enter the land of cast offs, has beens and never weres. If they do you enter QB HELL
I apologize to all the older fans who had to endure the 1970s  
Larry in Pencilvania : 5/12/2019 12:44 pm : link
and experience that list of crappy quarterbacking.


Sorry
Re: I apologize to all the older fans who had to endure the 1970s  
Aaron Thomas : 5/12/2019 12:50 pm : link
Thanks a lot Larry! I'm gonna have the same nightmares tonight I had every Sunday night in the fall in the 70's lol
Why worry about this  
section125 : 5/12/2019 12:50 pm : link
two weeks after the guy was picked? What purpose does it serve to speculate about something that will not happen for a couple years, if ever?
QB won't be on the Giants radar again until at least 2022  
BillT : 5/12/2019 12:52 pm : link
Jones will be given '21 and '22 at a minimum.
Larry  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/12/2019 12:53 pm : link
you forgot

Dave Brown
Danny Kannell
Kent Graham
after those three --  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/12/2019 12:55 pm : link
a recovering Kerry Collins was like being touched by the hand of God.
RE: Jones would have to run over a traffic cop...  
DavidinBMNY : 5/12/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14440597 Milton said:
Quote:
...for the Giants to adopt the Arizona model.
Jones is going to at least get two years and probably three. His floor as a player is too high IMHO that they are going to move on from him. Shurmer figures to be the coach here at least 2 more seasons.
By the time we figure out  
Bill in UT : 5/12/2019 1:05 pm : link
that Jones was a mistake, Webb should be available again. And can we stop with this "model" stuff?
RE: Larry  
Larry in Pencilvania : 5/12/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14440653 gidiefor said:
Quote:
you forgot

Dave Brown
Danny Kannell
Kent Graham


Wrong decade and doesn't serve my point in time, but it was another decade of QB HELL. The Simms/Hostetler QB controversy that led up to that, the cutting of Simms, Hoss going to the Raiders, Dave Brown and the waste of a first round pick. Danny Kannell and his game manager style and Graham with his rocket arm that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Even Kerry Collins, who was light years over that crew, wasn't the man as he crumpled in the big game. All this....QB HELL!!!!

Thanks Gidie
No offense intended  
joeinpa : 5/12/2019 1:17 pm : link
And this being a fan board, there should not be many if any Giants related speculation, that need be dismissed.

But the fact that this is being discussed in regard to a quarterback taken at 6, whom Gettleman likes better than any of the 4 in last year s quarterback rich draft, and possible any of that position available in next season s draft, demonstrates how far removed from logic we fans can be when it comes to our teams.

I include myself because I too have wondered what happens if they missed on Jones. But to be fair, it never occurred to me to consider they might move on from him after year one.
Lol..  
prdave73 : 5/12/2019 1:25 pm : link
If Jones is Bad, there is no fall back? This Franchise take a huge hit for years. What you do immediately is fire Dave Gettleman imo if that were to happen. That's a complete failure in my book. No excuses..
I think Jones gets to play this year  
gtt350 : 5/12/2019 1:28 pm : link
by mid season. Got to get his feet wet. He solidify's Shurmer's offense if as advertised
Dumb. Waste of energy to post a response. Keep your thoughts  
Ivan15 : 5/12/2019 1:55 pm : link
to yourself
Letís just hope  
ryanmkeane : 5/12/2019 3:04 pm : link
Gettleman got it right.

If he didnít, everyoneís getting fired anyway.
According to BBI..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/12/2019 3:09 pm : link
we can trade Jones next year with all the "poise" he'll show under pressure - for a high first rounder.

Oh wait - Rosen didn't fetch that?? what the fuck?
If there was just a way that NFL teams could grab rising college  
Jimmy Googs : 5/12/2019 3:13 pm : link
juniors and seniors. You know, some sort of annual event to select talented young football players to play professionally...but in a structured way with set limit of picks, a specific order to pick and limited time.

If the NFL could only think of instituting something like that then the Giants would a fallback if Jones is bad...

RE: According to BBI..  
Jay on the Island : 5/12/2019 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14440774 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
we can trade Jones next year with all the "poise" he'll show under pressure - for a high first rounder.

Oh wait - Rosen didn't fetch that?? what the fuck?

Add that to the other dumb shit we've read this week on this forum.
If Jones turns out to be Steve Walsh  
81_Great_Dane : 5/12/2019 3:26 pm : link
and you can get Troy Aikman, you take Aikman. But that is nearly impossible to pull off. Dallas had to bottom out AND get lucky.
RE: RE: According to BBI..  
Larry in Pencilvania : 5/12/2019 3:29 pm : link
Add that to the other dumb shit we've read this decade on this forum.

FIXED
For the Giants to finish with a top 5 pick  
Jay on the Island : 5/12/2019 3:47 pm : link
A lot has to go wrong. I'm talking decimated with injuries including Barkley missing most of the season and Eli playing horrific football. There is very little chance that the Giants will be in the Cards position next year. I don't think this is a playoff team but they aren't a 4-12 or 5-11 team either.

How is this even a question.  
Giant John : 5/12/2019 4:49 pm : link
At a bare minimum we are two years from thinking about this. No offense but this isnít worth thinking about today.
If after 25 full games he sucks and is what many experts claim  
The_Boss : 5/12/2019 5:26 pm : link
And you somehow earn the #1 pick in 2021 after going like 3-13 or 2-14 in 2020, the fallback is named Trevor Lawrence.

Donít worry  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/12/2019 6:48 pm : link
Be happy
This - ( New Window )
RE: If after 25 full games he sucks and is what many experts claim  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/12/2019 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14440909 The_Boss said:
Quote:
And you somehow earn the #1 pick in 2021 after going like 3-13 or 2-14 in 2020, the fallback is named Trevor Lawrence.

Yeah that would be my plan, we swing for the fences this year with Eli and next with DJ, and/or we completely swing and a miss and take TLaw in 2021. 4D chess baby.

Lol not realistic scenario, but hey.
If the Giants are in range to get one of the top 2020 QBs ...  
FStubbs : 5/12/2019 7:46 pm : link
... and it could happen, the team is still a work in progress ... then you trade the pick for a ransom. Sure, everyone knows the pick is for sale, but teams will want Tua/Fromm/Herbert and will pay to get them.

Now in 2021? Jones didn't work, so you take Lawrence and move on from Jones.
RE: Part of my point  
Leg of Theismann : 5/13/2019 12:17 am : link
In comment 14440607 Reale01 said:
Quote:
Is that it is not the end of the world or even the next three years. It was a good chance to take IMO. The key will be the Giants ability to make a quick and accurate determination and not waste multiple years on a player who cannot get it done (See Dave Brown).


You HAVE to be right if you trade #6, #17, and next year's #1 to move up to #1. The Giants don"t HAVE to be right but we hope they are.


Uhhhh, no. I disagree. Many people on this board have discussed and agreed on the fact that the Giants missing on Flowers and Apple (both top 10 picks) was a huge part of the downfall of Reese and the entire organization. I don't buy the idea that you can just completely miss on the #6 pick and still expect to get back in contention for this division title. You cannot afford to miss on 1st round picks that high. In particular, the mistake is 100X magnified if the missed pick that high is a QB, because I guarantee you Daniel Jones is going to get every last chance to develop, improve, and become the guy, which is years of investment by this franchise, because if ultimately he isn't the guy, Gettleman and Shurmur are both likely done (for good, in fact, I doubt either one would get a Head GM or HC position in this league every again).

Maybe YOU don't think it's a big deal if Jones is a miss, but I can tell you there are a ton of people who disagree with you and that includes Dave Gettleman. He said himself that as a GM you have to get the HC right and the QB right, and if you get either one wrong, you're screwed. That's the whole reason this pick is controversial, because if Jones is a miss then that is a lost pick that could have been an elite pass rusher (not sure if you noticed but the way the Giants won every single one of their super bowls was primarily with elite pass rushers). It is also means it is years down the drain of developing and taking a shot on a QB that could have been put into a different QB. Gettlemen had to pull the trigger at some point (on either Darnold last year, someone this year, or someone in 2020). He decided to pull the trigger at #6 in 2019 on Daniel Jones, and if it's a miss, he is a dead man. Simple as that. No rationalizing your way out of it.
RE: If the Giants are in range to get one of the top 2020 QBs ...  
Leg of Theismann : 5/13/2019 12:21 am : link
In comment 14440998 FStubbs said:
Quote:
... and it could happen, the team is still a work in progress ... then you trade the pick for a ransom. Sure, everyone knows the pick is for sale, but teams will want Tua/Fromm/Herbert and will pay to get them.

Now in 2021? Jones didn't work, so you take Lawrence and move on from Jones.


Right. Good thing the Giants are guaranteed to have the #1 overall pick in 2021 (sarcasm/) Hell they tried their damndest to be the worst team in the league and get the #1 overall pick the past 2 years and they still couldn't get it.

I'm sure none of the other 32 teams will care to get Lawrence for themselves.
If Jones is bad...  
.McL. : 5/13/2019 2:02 am : link
I think the fallback is to punt! ;)
Thanks for comments  
Reale01 : 5/13/2019 2:12 am : link
The real question here is: Do you pass on Tua (or whomever you think will be great) next year for an untested Jones? It seems most here would pass and would wait until at least 2020 to move on.
"Most QBs seem to be picked with picks 1,2, or 3"  
Jim in NH : 5/13/2019 1:15 pm : link
Actually, of the quarterbacks who have won Super Bowls, half were picked at #11 or lower, 1/3 being picked in rounds 2-7.
Jones will play by 2020 even if he is bad  
Steve in ATL : 5/13/2019 1:25 pm : link
If he is bad then DG and Shurmur get fired and the new GM reboots the franchise again.

I really think there is little chance the Jones is bad. The question for me is if he will be great.
If we have a remote shot of drafting  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/13/2019 1:26 pm : link
Trevor Lawrence, and Jones hasn't been very good at all you have to draft Lawrence.

I wouldn't even think twice about it. That kid is a freak and a QB savant.
RE: Thanks for comments  
Dan in the Springs : 5/13/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14441261 Reale01 said:
Quote:
The real question here is: Do you pass on Tua (or whomever you think will be great) next year for an untested Jones? It seems most here would pass and would wait until at least 2020 to move on.


I would most certainly try to leverage Tua's value were I in a position to pick him by trading back. I wouldn't take him or any other QB at the top of next year's draft unless they were clearly the BPA out of all positions and nobody wanted to give fair value in a trade back. Even then I'd think twice - have to see what the gap is between Tua and the next person on the board.

Wanna know why DG picked DJ? Because he has a conviction on him as a generational QB. You don't give up on that or start a new QB controversy barring some major news story/change of events that isn't going to happen to the NYG this year.
This is part of the reason he should start immediately  
Go Terps : 5/13/2019 1:38 pm : link
The sooner he plays, the sooner we get a sense of what he is and respond accordingly.

The Giants are not operating objectively here. If Ryan Fitzpatrick were the Giants' QB last season and put up the same numbers as Eli at the same cost as Eli, he would not be keeping Jones on the bench in 2019. In fact he wouldn't even be on the roster.

Everything that was done this offseason makes sense EXCEPT for this one thing.
RE: Dumb. Waste of energy to post a response. Keep your thoughts  
Scott in Montreal : 5/13/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14440707 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
to yourself


Yet here is your response. So much for a waste of energy. Maybe you should be the one keeping your thoughts to yourself.....
RE: Lol..  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/13/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14440680 prdave73 said:
Quote:
If Jones is Bad, there is no fall back? This Franchise take a huge hit for years. What you do immediately is fire Dave Gettleman imo if that were to happen. That's a complete failure in my book. No excuses..

A huge hit for years? Please explain.
RE:  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/13/2019 3:29 pm : link
In comment 14441780 Jim in NH said:
Quote:
Actually, of the quarterbacks who have won Super Bowls, half were picked at #11 or lower, 1/3 being picked in rounds 2-7.

Here we go with this shit again. First of all, that's an incredibly limited criteria for judgment (unless you want to consider Dan Marino a bust, for example).

More importantly, if you don't also list the aggregate number of QBs drafted in those blocks (and therefore show the true hit rate), your data is meaningless and misleading. Which, by the sheer frequency with which you post it (and the length of time that you've been posting it - well over a year now), along with your absolute unwillingness to address the flaws in it, appears to be precisely what you intend.

Give it a rest.
Fetal.  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/13/2019 4:02 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Thanks for comments  
Reale01 : 5/14/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14441794 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 14441261 Reale01 said:


Quote:


The real question here is: Do you pass on Tua (or whomever you think will be great) next year for an untested Jones? It seems most here would pass and would wait until at least 2020 to move on.



I would most certainly try to leverage Tua's value were I in a position to pick him by trading back. I wouldn't take him or any other QB at the top of next year's draft unless they were clearly the BPA out of all positions and nobody wanted to give fair value in a trade back. Even then I'd think twice - have to see what the gap is between Tua and the next person on the board.

Wanna know why DG picked DJ? Because he has a conviction on him as a generational QB. You don't give up on that or start a new QB controversy barring some major news story/change of events that isn't going to happen to the NYG this year.


I agree that Gettleman really thinks Jones is special. I do not think he reached - at least not in his mind. The intent of the thread was twofold - First missing on the #6 pick is bad, but not as bad as most QB misses. It is possible to move on. Second, it would be good to know sooner than later if its a miss as we don't want to pass on other better alternatives. You can tell if he is NOT the future in practice but you cannot tell if he IS the future until you see him in games. Even then it can take a couple years. Thanks for the thoughts.
He's going to be boss  
Kevin in Annapolis : 5/14/2019 1:12 pm : link
Stop worrying
RE: If after 25 full games he sucks and is what many experts claim  
Scott in Montreal : 5/14/2019 2:21 pm : link
In comment 14440909 The_Boss said:
Quote:
And you somehow earn the #1 pick in 2021 after going like 3-13 or 2-14 in 2020, the fallback is named Trevor Lawrence.


Or Hunter Johnson. Chances are they are going to be the 1-2 picks.
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