I made some more tweaks to the dev site. For those of you who are interested, I'd appreciate any feedback.
The biggest change you'l notice is the font. Site wide it's been changed to Source Serif Pro. Let me know what you think.
I've also bumped up the font size in the list threads view, making it a little easier to see the thread titles.
Something else in the list threads view, you can click anywhere in the row and it will take you to that thread. Should be a little easier to click on threads on smaller screens.
I made some other little tweaks here and there.
Thanks also to widmerseyebrow for his CSS versions of the Back To The Corner and Add A Comment buttons.
BBI Development Corner - (
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I like the font-size increase. Will test out on mobile later today.
Thank you.
*on the link
Now if only the text was dynamic...that is controllable via Apple's iOS setting.
the font within these comment windows is better than the site overall. Is this an Arial or related?
I'll contribute to BBI no matter what font you choose.
Would be great if we could implement some newer tech such as direct messages, notifications when someone is responding to you within a thread, etc.
I understand that people are always going to be adverse to change...especially when it comes to technology. At some point, we're going to have to adjust to using something new and unfamiliar and it's probably in all of our best interest to do this sooner rather than later.
We have an awesome community here and it would be great if the site allowed for the conversations and dialogue to be expanded and more interactive.
I only have a limited number of mobile devices in my house, which belong to my wife and kids. I am actually surprised at how this old forum shows up as well as it does on the various devices. The exception seems to me to be the small text and having to manually enlarge it and the menus.
The front page will be easier to address because it will a more standard out-of-the-box option that can easily adjust to mobile technology. The Forum needs a more hands-on approach by Gary.
On most threads, I'm seeing a white space between the first post and the subsequent reply posts.
Strangely, the space is wider when I am not logged in to my account. Is it related to the ads on the right side?
Mac, Safari, 27" monitor.
On my iPad IOS 12.3 Safari Landscape view the ads are on the left and I have to scroll a full screen to get from the first to second post. Text is larger.
On most threads, I'm seeing a white space between the first post and the subsequent reply posts.
Strangely, the space is wider when I am not logged in to my account. Is it related to the ads on the right side?
Mac, Safari, 27" monitor.
On my iPad IOS 12.3 Safari Landscape view the ads are on the left and I have to scroll a full screen to get from the first to second post. Text is larger.
That space is related to auto-ad adjustment (ad moves from the side to below the text for mobile devices). I find it annoying. If we can get rid of it, so much the better. But the text covering issue seems to be gone.
You already have some media queries in here, why not hide the columns Views and Posts under 825px? You'd decrease the need for people to zoom on the main page.
Why don't you just use disqus and ditch the diy?
Have a look at forum.umhoops.com. I'm there all the time. I think it works great. Easy to quote replies and navigate to/from responses. I'm pretty sure it's disqus, but I can ask the site admin.
And it looks great on mobile. My pet peeve on bbi is that the drop-down corner forum menu is a PITA.
Scales and resizes properly on Chrome on Android.
Does *not* scale on Firefox mobile. The margins are completely off and it looks like a zoomed out desktop page. If you zoom in to read the text, you have to keep scrolling left and right to read.
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really would prefer Disqus? I think that is fine for brief responses to articles but a back-and-forth conversation?
Have a look at forum.umhoops.com. I'm there all the time. I think it works great. Easy to quote replies and navigate to/from responses. I'm pretty sure it's disqus, but I can ask the site admin.
I don't think that is disqus. I'm on some disqus sites and they don't look like that. I also don't see the disqus sign-in when you click on "log in".
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really would prefer Disqus? I think that is fine for brief responses to articles but a back-and-forth conversation?
And it looks great on mobile. My pet peeve on bbi is that the drop-down corner forum menu is a PITA.
Gary is working on the menus.
I like that the letters seem wider and possibly bit more space between them, but at the same time look distorted (as if they need to be higher)
Has the font size changed?
Meanwhile, what I am going to suggest here may be more involved.
We have just one funnel for ALL threads on the main page. Other than selecting NFT, you see a thread regarding the draft below a thread about draft beer.
When you reference menus, it would help to have categories within the forum.
Other sports
Food
Home and auto
Finance
Politics (enter at your own risk)
etc etc etc
Discussions in these other areas would likely increase web traffic by keeping people on the site longer.
The way the forum is now, the older threads are basically gone after a day because nobody is going to tab down more than two pages of threads. If you were to start a thread about a BBQ rib recipe, it would be dead in a day or two. If it was in a food and drink section of the forum, that thread would likely still be visible on the top half of the screen for another week...generating more responses. More time for eyes to be on ads.
Dont know if its the font but the ads are sometimes oversized compared to the text in the comments.
I don't think that is disqus. I'm on some disqus sites and they don't look like that. I also don't see the disqus sign-in when you click on "log in".
I sent him a DM to find out what it is.
1) This forum implementation is unique and gives BBI a lot of its character. The majority of BBIers like it.
2) There are over a decade's worth of posts and comments archived here. That's a lot of value.
3) No good replacement that would make everyone happy actually exists. All forum implementations have their own quirks and features that people would need to deal with.
4) Any "out of the box" solution would require a significant amount of work to customize it so that it would be suitable for BBI.
5) Ads in the forum make up a significant chunk of BBI revenue. Any solution, like Disqus, that eliminates forum ads is a non-starter.
I dont know much about forum software or how this compares to other options available but this does seem like a far better solution than what were running BBI on now. I would love to see us be able to migrate to something more modern like this.
I may try a sans-serif font tomorrow and see how that looks.
You should consider that you could be turning off as many people as you're retaining.
They can be migrated.
You can't be serious. The functionality and robustness of this platform is way behind the curve.
It's a blog and some static content with a forum, don't over-think it.
[quote]5) Ads in the forum make up a significant chunk of BBI revenue. Any solution, like Disqus, that eliminates forum ads is a non-starter.
The example I cited is actually discourse.org, and it has an official advertising plugin.
1) This forum implementation is unique and gives BBI a lot of its character. The majority of BBIers like it.
2) There are over a decade's worth of posts and comments archived here. That's a lot of value.
3) No good replacement that would make everyone happy actually exists. All forum implementations have their own quirks and features that people would need to deal with.
4) Any "out of the box" solution would require a significant amount of work to customize it so that it would be suitable for BBI.
5) Ads in the forum make up a significant chunk of BBI revenue. Any solution, like Disqus, that eliminates forum ads is a non-starter.
Gary, these excuses are all (excuse my language) horseshit. Its way past time for BBI to be upgraded and none of the points you listed above are real reasons we should avoid improving this forum. Only rational reasons I can think of are cost and time. And I respect the decision if those factors make it unachievable but hopefully we can make it happen.
The previous two months were some of our best of all time with the Corner racking up nearly six million page views in both March and April of 2019.
I can't imagine what Discourse.org would charge us for that, but it would be some significant multiple of our current monthly server bill.
There are nearly 200,000 threads currently in the database along with nearly six million comments. Nobody is going import that into any kind of existing software.
The Forum, as it exists right now, is ridiculously successful and popular. I'm trying to make it more mobile friendly and to improve some functionality without ruining what makes it different and special.
This is easily one of the most popular and successful, independent, fan-run, sports forums in the world.
Obviously it's a web 1.0 framework and lacks a lot of modern features, but it works, people like it, there are good conversations happening, it's very Google friendly and it makes enough money to pay its way.
I really don't see any compelling reason to switch to something else. A lot of the features on modern forum software can create as many problems as they solve. Most of them don't really make the conversation any better and that's what we're about here.
Not to mention that I have, over the years, built a bunch of special purpose, back end tools to manage and deal with problems that are specific to BBI. I would be loathe to give those up.
Anyone one of you is free to buy a domain and spin up an instance of Discourse or whatever and start talking Giants football. We'll be sticking with this for the foreseeable future.
The community here is obviously its most valuable asset. Just trying to help.
I get that and I'm not trying to be a dick, but I've answered this question dozens of times already.
Even if I had the time and resources (which I don't) to implement an entirely new, off the shelf, forum solution, it's not clear to me that it would be better for the site, all things considered. We'd be tossing away a big chunk of our legacy for some functionality that would be, in my opinion, of limited benefit.
We're sticking with this for the foreseeable future.
I really don't see any compelling reason to switch to something else. A lot of the features on modern forum software can create as many problems as they solve. Most of them don't really make the conversation any better and that's what we're about here.
There is one feature in particular that would make the forum much better. Maybe you can find a way to program this into the current platform Gary.
Other forums have a feature where you can click back into a thread that you viewed before, and it puts you at the spot where you were when you exited last.
So, for example... If the thread had 46 responses when you last saw it but now it has over 300... it would drop you at #47.
Also, when someone replies to you directly.. you can see there has been a reply to you and you can immediately navigate to that reply.
That absolutely would make the forum better and would create more clicks and views. I know someone else who owns an extremely popular forum in a different topic and he indicated that the new format created a significant boost to income.
I'm taking a process improvement class right now, and I had to read 2 chapters of the book, "Don't Make Me Think Revisited". I highly recommend it, and I couldn't help but think about BBI as I read it.
Now I am not going to even give you an exert from the book, but just give you the visuals in them.
When I saw this diagram. I thought of the BBI Crowded Front Page, that I do not think anyone uses:
This one as well
Example 1 Not Thinking
Compared to Example 2 which is what the front page of BBI is like and there is a ton of thinking involved:
The biggest issue with the new page layout are the clickable buttons. Here is a diagram to show you why I think so
And Finally using the archaic BBCode. It makes people think to much about how to add things. In this post alone, I put the wrong / a few times before I posting making me rethink over and over again. There are new forums out there, where you can literally click an image and past it into the forum.
Compared too:
You are more then likely turning away the younger crowd of Giants fans, that do not stick it out to try to figure out how to make a post exactly how they want it because simply they can find another site that allows them to do it that much easier.
I'd get rid of it, perhaps replace it with the 1st few words and then an ellipsis....
TL;DR: Go to a discussion board or comments section with beautiful type, use the inspector, and copy their font pairing. A site-wide line-height of 1.4 or 1.5 would improve readability, but youd need to alter the WYSIWYG to wrap paragraphs in <p> tags instead of inserting two <br> tags.
Some thoughts on the typography:
Font-size: 16px is the recommended minimum for your body text. Some news sites go up to 18px. BBI is good there.
Font-family: The best examples of typography usually feature a mixture of sans serif and serif fonts. Take Medium, Politico, etc. The heading, sub-header, author, and article body alternate between serif and sans-serif (with subheaders and author names using varying boldness, casing, and letter-spacing). While people are complaining about the new font, perhaps they wouldnt if it was only applied to the post body and paired with a really clean looking sans-serif for the post title and post author. If youre not a design type, Id suggest just going to a site (especially one with a discussion board or comment section) with beautiful type, looking in the inspector, and copying their font pairing.
Line-height: using a common, site-wide line-height brings consistency to your vertical spacing and makes the site easier on the eyes. 1.4 or 1.5 is generally accepted as good. The only issue I saw when doing this to BBIs thread page is that the markup on the thread body is technically not great: the paragraphs should be wrapped in <p> tags. With standard <p> margins, theres no need to insert manual <br>s between paragraphs. Because there are <br>s, the spacing between paragraphs becomes huge when line-height is increased.
Of course there is more to great typography but thats a good start.
Is BBI a beautiful site? I wouldn't say so, but it's become a whole lot more usable with the minor tweaks made recently.
Thumbs up!
Link - ( New Window )
I'm not seeing the changes....
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Open the link in a browser and resize the width down to phone sizes. This is quick and dirty, just want to demonstrate an idea to improve readability on mobile. Link - ( New Window )
I'm not seeing the changes....
The Views and Posts columns collapse on mobile screens.
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In comment 14443364 schabadoo said:
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Open the link in a browser and resize the width down to phone sizes. This is quick and dirty, just want to demonstrate an idea to improve readability on mobile. Link - ( New Window )
I'm not seeing the changes....
The Views and Posts columns collapse on mobile screens.
Wouldn't it make sense?
Honestly I'd think about hiding all of them except for the topics.
Screenshot if you can't see change:
-Any serif font is worse on screens, better printed.
-Helvetica Neue is such a time tested gold standard, go there
2) Hamburger Menu
3) Collapse some of the columns
-It will allow you to increase the font size
-We don't really need to see the # of views, aren't we more interested in # of posts. in any event they correlate well.
that saves mobile space.
-started by and last post could be in the same column. I don't know about others but I don't sort by that but indifferent if others do.
4) maybe top and bottom border for each post might add visual appeal
Just to set the demographic for you on my feedback, im mid 20s that views the site alot on a mobile device, been on here for many years passively, actively for about the last 2. also one side point, i have a lot of friends that ive tried to get involved here but dont seem stay interested and quickly fizzle out.
feedback on dev font:
i like the new font alot but maybe too drastic on the size increase, perhaps scale it back partially.
unwanted feedback on other features:
my only wish/suggestion/recommendation would be for some sort of ranking system for the comments and stacking replies similiar reddit. I get those are feature that make reddit special and admittedly, I dont know enough to understand if that is even plausible for the current architecture but i think that would bring this site to the next level. it would allow for passive BBI to get more involved in the site and help reduce learning curve for new users.
I apologize if this idea has already been discussed and shot down but thought it was worthwhile to the topic. once again thank you for the work you all do maintaining this site and considering the community.
Suggestions
1.Stack comments that reply to other comments within a thread. It would make following some of the various discussions within a thread more cohesive.
2. Add 'like' or 'dislike' feature so we can provide quick feedback without a full comment. Or use thumbs up or down icon; or go creative and use touchdown (like) or flag (dislike) icons;
Regardless this site is awesome. Its amazing the community it has build thanks for your endless efforts. Any influence with the Giants for a 'Return to Albany' training camp
Looks way better. Is it possible to put the ads in-between the posts instead. Otherwise everyone will finger soon to the left anyway and not see the ads.
Also hamburger menu will clean up the top well.
Good work.
I use one of the wider phones. All the columns still show up and everything seems scrunched up compared to the normal layout.
I like it, definitely an improvement.
I have no idea on your analytics, but I'd bet you have a significant amount of mobile users. This'll help, at least on phones.
You may want to scale it, like hiding one column at tablet sizing.
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I killed all the columns on the vertical phone view except for the topic and the ads. The ads kind of mess up the view, but it's more readable.
Looks way better. Is it possible to put the ads in-between the posts instead. Otherwise everyone will finger soon to the left anyway and not see the ads.
Also hamburger menu will clean up the top well.
Good work.
I like the suggestion of moving the ad in the thread view, maybe over or under the logo or menu? It's killing your good work on the phone view.
iPhone 7 plus.
I have to do some client work today and I'm teaching a WordPress class tonight, so I'm not going to play with it any more today.
You should try Chrome-Inspect-Toggle Device Toolbar and there's 3 or 4 iPhone views you can use.
So in the Corner Forum you'd always have the Topic, Started By, Views, Post, Last Post headers along with everything above it, then when you are in a thread, youd have the usual Home, Corner Forum, Gameday, Team, etc headers locked up top.
Just a personal preference of mine, no right or wrong answer here
This is my biggest gripe with BBI. I appreciate the effort!
I may try a sans-serif font tomorrow and see how that looks.
Georgia?
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As I expected it would be.
I may try a sans-serif font tomorrow and see how that looks.
Georgia?
Georgia is serif.
Arial, Helvetica, Open Sans, those are popular sans-serif options.
I'll probably spin up a few demo pages with different font mixes and let people vote on it.
I prefer the arial style font in the quotes and think it would look great throughout. It is objectively easier to read (I recall there has been research on this).
The window. I am typing in now, to post a comment, does not resize on my phone, but it also does not behave pathogenically if I shift the window back and forth to see the text as I type.
But the large font is a bit too much.