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Looking at the OL now, how worried are you about center?

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/14/2019 9:47 am
Very worried?

Not as worried because of Zeitler and Hernandez flanking the position?

Halapio or Pulley will be fine?
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RE: RE: john sullivan is a manimal  
aimrocky : 5/14/2019 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14443215 wonderback said:
Quote:
In comment 14443170 Platos said:


Quote:


but i think he's done. didn't he end the year on injury last season?

he's from Fairfield County, i believe he wrestled at Greenwich. guy was a beast.



Coached him as a little kid in Little League. Even then he was huge. Was always afraid he would hurt someone. Never had the experience of seeing someone that young be that big.


You did? I was an umpire back then, and umped a few of Sullivan's games (when he was behind the plate).
I am ALWAYS worried about the Center position...  
M.S. : 5/14/2019 1:14 pm : link
...it is IMO the most important position on the team after QB.

Cannot understand the reason for optimism on this site for Jon Halapio???

I understand taking a "wait-and-see" stance, but optimism? The guy hasn't done jack shit yet for the Giants.
As is per usual around here  
Dave on the UWS : 5/14/2019 1:14 pm : link
the standard take is if we don’t have 5 pro bowlers than they suck. The thought about Halapio was he was larger and stouter at the point of attack than Jones last year. He is still learning the Center position. It’s hard to project what his ceiling is. As for Pulley, he was the lowest graded starting center in the league in 2017. He was below average last year- at best.
Less worried than I was about RT  
Phil in LA : 5/14/2019 1:21 pm : link
because, there is some intriguing depth at C, like Brown and O'Hagan.
I find it amusing that some say Halipio played well  
Stratman : 5/14/2019 1:25 pm : link
in his 2 games before he got injured. The entire O-line was a disaster until mid-season when it became average at best. I don't know what to make of Halipio. He simply hasn't played that much. But, what we saw was nothing to write home about. Spencer Pulley seemed overmatched at times. Similar to Wheeler. I think both know what to do at their positions. They just got overmatched physically too often. I think you have to say that we know what we have in Pulley as a floor level. Hopefully, he gets stronger and improves. Halipio is a trust the coaches call. Watch Evans in the center competition.
This OL  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 1:32 pm : link
Has a solid LT, decent RT, and possibly the best G tandem in the league

2017: ***Flowers, *Pugh, **Richburg, Jerry, ***Hart

*missed 8 games, played in 15 over last 2 years, “below average” 2018 grade
** missed 12 games, “below average” 2018 grade
*** atrocious football players, could you have a worse T tandem?

It’s come a long way in 2 years.


RE: Sy's grades on  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 1:32 pm : link
In comment 14443275 Angus said:
Quote:
Halapio's first two games were good...


I wouldn't say that. At best it was damning with faint praise:

Quote:
Patrick Omameh and Jon Halapio didn’t stand out in a negative way. They both allowed 1 pressure each but weren’t on the radar much other than that. The issue was just a lack of difference making movement. The interior of the JAC defense went where they wanted to. It’s pretty bad that these two had the best grades of the OL, because by no means were they above average or even close to it.
the best G tandem in the league?  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 1:33 pm : link
baaahahahahaha....I'd suspect this guy actually IS Gettleman if Gettleman knew how to turn on a computer.
Evan Brown not Evans Duh!  
Stratman : 5/14/2019 1:36 pm : link
.
Very worried but  
Festina Lente : 5/14/2019 1:47 pm : link
I guess you cant fix everything in one go when you have as many problem areaa as the giants
RE: Luke warm take  
Beezer : 5/14/2019 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14443064 AcesUp said:
Quote:
But I think we'll be better at C than we will at RT. I don't really see either position as gaping holes, just large question marks backed by quality depth. Hernandez is a guy that I'm not taking for granted either, there are plenty of examples of promising young rookies that do not progress or even regress. This line really needs him to step up and for Solder to continue his momentum from last season. That's probably a bigger key to success than what level of mediocre the bargain types are.


Not a chance Hernandez regresses. Zero chance.
Worried isn't the right word for me.  
MM_in_NYC : 5/14/2019 1:54 pm : link
C is clearly a position we'll be looking to upgrade next offseason unless Pio breaks out, and anyway, we're in the middle of a rebuild and this upcoming season we are simply not going to be competitive, so I see no reason to worry. It's not like this piece is what is going to hold us back from greatness.

What I am "worried" about is the team eeking out a few more wins than they deserve and missing out on a prime draft target.
Biggest mistake of the draft was not ...  
Bluesbreaker : 5/14/2019 1:59 pm : link
Adding another starter to the O-line where clearly
RT and Center are still question marks .
Baker was my favorite CB in the draft but if we have
more than one injury to the starters it's gonna get
ugly .
Concerned....  
Reb8thVA : 5/14/2019 2:04 pm : link
putting trust in two players who so far have been journeymen at best is a big leap of faith.

I think Eli is at his best when he can step up in the pocket.

Moreover, I still have doubts about Schurmur's judgment.

I had hoped they would have drafted a C but alas they didn't.

All that said, I still hope it works out
RE: the best G tandem in the league?  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14443354 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
baaahahahahaha....I'd suspect this guy actually IS Gettleman if Gettleman knew how to turn on a computer.


1. Zeitler is 1 of the best guards in the NFL. Not even debatable.
2. Hernandez graded as 21st overall guard, as a rookie, and widely regarded as a huge steal and 1 of the most dominant run blockers to come out in recent memory.

Feel free to list all of the better Guard tandems in the league.
I'm not worried at all. More curious  
Beezer : 5/14/2019 2:10 pm : link
to see which one gets the starting nod. Not really a position where you'd want fluidity. It's one guy's and that's it. And I have no clue, all things considered, which one even might have the inside edge going in.

I guess because he's signed longer and is a couple years younger (26, opposed to Halapio being 28) I hope Pulley wins the job.

I do think adding Zeitler on the right helps and I don't see a chance of Hernandez regressing.

Remmers is at LEAST solid, from everything I'm reading on BBI, and it seemed like Solder got healthy AND worked through a slight learning curve regarding a different situation last year.

Just need some depth, and better than Wheeler (although for a back-up, he's certainly not the worst).

I'm pretty excited.

not worried at all  
Vanzetti : 5/14/2019 2:14 pm : link
Coaching staff seems to like Halapio. Then they have two guys behind him who are "true" centers.

As somebody said above, Pulley is servicable and has already started for parts of two seasons at center. Evan Brown is the guy with the explosive 36" vertical. He is the sleeper.

I'm far more concernded by Edge, safety, LB etc . . .

No OL has five all pros. And with a center, the mental part of the game is as important as the physical. That's why having true centers with NFL experience is important.

Center might not be strength this year but with the three guys they have, the position will be comptently manned.
Sure it's debateable  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 2:15 pm : link
Zeitler is solid, but in seven years in the league never been named to an All Pro team, or even the Pro Bowl, once.

Better tandems? Zack Martin and whoever starts opposite him on the Cowboys (doesn't matter who it is because Martin is far superior to any Giants linemen), Andrus Peat and Larry Warford, David DeCastro and Ramon Foster, Joel Bitonio and Austin Corbett (who Cleveland moved Zeitler out to promote, after all).....
RE: RE: Luke warm take  
AcesUp : 5/14/2019 2:20 pm : link
In comment 14443378 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 14443064 AcesUp said:


Quote:


But I think we'll be better at C than we will at RT. I don't really see either position as gaping holes, just large question marks backed by quality depth. Hernandez is a guy that I'm not taking for granted either, there are plenty of examples of promising young rookies that do not progress or even regress. This line really needs him to step up and for Solder to continue his momentum from last season. That's probably a bigger key to success than what level of mediocre the bargain types are.



Not a chance Hernandez regresses. Zero chance.


I don't think he will but that's a ridiculous statement. Recent history is littered with promising rookies or young players that fizzeled out. You don't even have to look past the Giants in the last 5 years to find two examples in Pugh and Richburg.
I realize that the team  
Beer Man : 5/14/2019 2:25 pm : link
picked up a great RG and hopefully decent RT, but they have been rebuilding the OL since 2012, it just seems like it should be better stocked by now.
I think you have to look at more than just  
Beezer : 5/14/2019 2:27 pm : link
the physical play on the field ... and Hernandez seems to check all the boxes. So am I over the top saying "no chance?" Sure. Just I think it's really not something worth even considering, when there are so many other areas of question or concern.
RE: I think you have to look at more than just  
AcesUp : 5/14/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14443453 Beezer said:
Quote:
the physical play on the field ... and Hernandez seems to check all the boxes. So am I over the top saying "no chance?" Sure. Just I think it's really not something worth even considering, when there are so many other areas of question or concern.


How Hernandez looks this year is much more important to the overall big picture than how our one year stop gaps and bargain bin flyers do. To me at least because I'm looking more towards 2020 and beyond.

Speking of this year, it's important for the C position as well because if he can be the stud that many are assuming that he already is (he's not there yet), then the guy playing in between he and Zeitler takes on less importance.
RE: Sure it's debateable  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14443433 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Zeitler is solid, but in seven years in the league never been named to an All Pro team, or even the Pro Bowl, once.

Better tandems? Zack Martin and whoever starts opposite him on the Cowboys (doesn't matter who it is because Martin is far superior to any Giants linemen), Andrus Peat and Larry Warford, David DeCastro and Ramon Foster, Joel Bitonio and Austin Corbett (who Cleveland moved Zeitler out to promote, after all).....


Even with dismissing Zeitler’s dominance (there aren’t 10 better Guards in the entire league), dismissing Hernandez entirely, and assuming Dallas/Cleveland’s other G plug ins will automatically play well ... you still came up with only 4 tandems

Thank you for actually proving my point. Always a pleasure!

I also saw an article  
Beer Man : 5/14/2019 2:50 pm : link
yesterday on James O’Hagan, where they listed him as one of the undrafted hidden gems. Although only 6'1", he was one of the top Centers in the nation last year, and supposedly, what he lacks in height, he makes-up for using leverage.
I really wish we picked up a Center and Tackle in this past  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/14/2019 2:54 pm : link
draft. A tackle would have made sense as they could have played him at RT and if he was skilled enough, move him to RT.

We are going to be back to having 3 major holes on the offensive lines in a year or 2. We need an influx of young grown talent now.

Center was also a position that could have been drafted this past draft that there was an abundance of great talent.
I proved your point that the Giants will have the best guards in the  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 2:56 pm : link
league.....by off the top of my head naming four that are head and shoulders better. You're quite the logician.
6'1"?  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 2:57 pm : link
Is he tough as a boot?
RE: I really wish we picked up a Center and Tackle in this past  
Beer Man : 5/14/2019 3:02 pm : link
In comment 14443494 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
draft. A tackle would have made sense as they could have played him at RT and if he was skilled enough, move him to RT.

We are going to be back to having 3 major holes on the offensive lines in a year or 2. We need an influx of young grown talent now.

Center was also a position that could have been drafted this past draft that there was an abundance of great talent.
Agree. Its early, but as of now next off-season the team should be looking at OL/ER/WR and blocking TE
RE: I proved your point that the Giants will have the best guards in the  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 3:03 pm : link
In comment 14443502 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
league.....by off the top of my head naming four that are head and shoulders better. You're quite the logician.


You conveniently left out “possibly” ... as in “1 of the best G tandems in the league with the potential to be best”

So yes, by underestimating Zeitler, completely dismissing Hernandez, and assuming DAL/CLE guards will automatically play well ... you still managed to only name 4 tandems that might be better.

Here’s a thought ... Zeitler is already an elite guard and maybe this guy linked below actually (gasp) gets better ...

https://mobile.twitter.com/pff_giants/status/1000104969331130368


Who’s that LG blocking for Saquon? - ( New Window )
RE: RE: I really wish we picked up a Center and Tackle in this past  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/14/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14443514 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 14443494 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


draft. A tackle would have made sense as they could have played him at RT and if he was skilled enough, move him to RT.


RT should have been LT. Meaning we draft a guy to play RT day 1 and if he is good enough transition him to LT.
I feel like the Giants are  
Dnew15 : 5/14/2019 3:14 pm : link
due to get a little lucky with a guy on the OL. It's time to find a guy that wasn't highly touted coming out of college or a top of the line expensive FA pick-up to be solid.
It's been awhile since Deihl, Seibert, McKenzie ...
I see Halapio as a good run blocker.  
Brown Recluse : 5/14/2019 3:14 pm : link
He is a powerful dude and that's always been his strength going back to college.

From that perspective at least, the line will be leaps and bounds better with him, Hernandez, and now Zeitler.



RE: I feel like the Giants are  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 3:27 pm : link
In comment 14443532 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
due to get a little lucky with a guy on the OL. It's time to find a guy that wasn't highly touted coming out of college or a top of the line expensive FA pick-up to be solid.
It's been awhile since Deihl, Seibert, McKenzie ...


Free agency next year may be our answer (Collins, Williams) although I’ll gladly take another Diehl-type late rounder

I actually like the C position’s potential, especially O’Hagan
Elite = not a single postseason honor in a 7 year career  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 3:34 pm : link


The Giants possibly have the best guard tandem in the NFL!
Seems like Center  
Dirt1 : 5/14/2019 4:03 pm : link
is the weakest link on the line right now.


RE: RE: Luke warm take  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/14/2019 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14443378 Beezer said:
Quote:
In comment 14443064 AcesUp said:


Quote:


But I think we'll be better at C than we will at RT. I don't really see either position as gaping holes, just large question marks backed by quality depth. Hernandez is a guy that I'm not taking for granted either, there are plenty of examples of promising young rookies that do not progress or even regress. This line really needs him to step up and for Solder to continue his momentum from last season. That's probably a bigger key to success than what level of mediocre the bargain types are.



Not a chance Hernandez regresses. Zero chance.


Yeah!

Signed,
All-Rookie Team Member Justin Pugh.



Young players only ever improve, right?
no, see Pugh and Richburg were drafted by Reese  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 4:06 pm : link
So they suxed despite very promising rookie seasons. Dave Gettleman only drafts awesome stars!
More worried  
Pascal4554 : 5/14/2019 4:10 pm : link
about defense and Remmers staying healthy. If the center sucks badly enough DG will find a new one like he did when he pulled the plug on Patrick Omameh.
I'm not that worried because having Hernandez and Zeitler  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/14/2019 4:11 pm : link
gives us one of the better pairings at G in the NFL.
Worried, yes  
.McL. : 5/14/2019 6:30 pm : link
Mostly because Center is the position that requires the most mental capabilities of any of th elineman. So far Halapio hasn't shown that he has that. It won't matter how good the rest of the players are if he is calling blocking schemes that have 3 vs. 2 on one side, and 2 vs 3 on the other (which I saw him do several times in the 2 games he played). Those kind of mental mistakes settled down with Greco and Pulley... At least then the suckitude of the line was based on the players skills and not being out of position.
PFF Guard rankings (2018)  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 7:01 pm : link
- Zeitler 6, Hernandez 21
- Peat 77, Warford 31
- Williams 52, Martin 2
- Foster 16, DeCastro 11


Weird ... it’s like logic, reasoning, direct observation , and advanced analytics support my claim of the Giants having a top G tandem that could quite possibly end up the best tandem in football.

No way Hernandez actually improves in year 2 or Zeitler gets more notoriety now that he’s playing in NY instead of CIN/CLE ... no way




not to re-litigate but Pugh's biggest issue was staying on the field  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2019 7:02 pm : link
if he could have done that he'd still be here. He was an effective player when he played, which is why he got a good sized contract. So a little odd to make him the example of performance regression when his main issue isn't performance it's that he still can't stay on the field to perform.

Among G's via PFF Hernandez was #21 last year and Zeitler #6 but most importantly both started 16 games, which is something Zeitler has done 4 straight years and Hernandez did every year in college. I can't imagine anyone would argue against those 2 being far and away the best guard combo we've had since Snee/Seubert. Which is almost 10 years ago already. So...progress.

Generally the teams with the best players try to keep them. I don't know who else is on the list of top 10-20 guards, but I'd imagine not that many others higher ranked than ours have changed teams in the last 18 months. Decastro hasn't, Martin hasn't, Yanda hasn't, Scherff hasn't, etc. Probably just Norwell via FA and Nelson via draft. Same is probably true of LT's (and Solder, who was ranked #21 this past year). This OL may be far from a top unit but it's also far from what it was when Gettleman arrived with Flowers/Hart bookending the tackles, undersized Brett Jones at C, and John jerry being the most reliable G on the team.
None  
Joey in VA : 5/14/2019 7:05 pm : link
Pulley was pretty bad early but he really solidified his play as the year wore on, as did most everyone on offense. If he's not beating out Pio, which he may we are in good shape either way.
RE: None  
Go Terps : 5/14/2019 7:25 pm : link
In comment 14443846 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Pulley was pretty bad early but he really solidified his play as the year wore on, as did most everyone on offense. If he's not beating out Pio, which he may we are in good shape either way.


Am I crazy for thinking that center is the most important position on the line?
RE: RE: None  
.McL. : 5/14/2019 7:29 pm : link
In comment 14443861 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14443846 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Pulley was pretty bad early but he really solidified his play as the year wore on, as did most everyone on offense. If he's not beating out Pio, which he may we are in good shape either way.



Am I crazy for thinking that center is the most important position on the line?

Yeah, I agree with you, or at least say it it very close with LT... But Shhh.... Saying that will bring a serious round of heckling. At least that what has happened to me.
RE: RE: None  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 7:34 pm : link
In comment 14443861 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14443846 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Pulley was pretty bad early but he really solidified his play as the year wore on, as did most everyone on offense. If he's not beating out Pio, which he may we are in good shape either way.



Am I crazy for thinking that center is the most important position on the line?


Nope. Dave-Te' Thomas has said the same thing many times.
RE: RE: None  
Joey in VA : 5/15/2019 7:24 am : link
In comment 14443861 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14443846 Joey in VA said:


Quote:


Pulley was pretty bad early but he really solidified his play as the year wore on, as did most everyone on offense. If he's not beating out Pio, which he may we are in good shape either way.



Am I crazy for thinking that center is the most important position on the line?
No you aren't wrong, he's the lynchpin essentially but Pulley played well down the stretch with a nightmare on his right side. Better players around an OL has a domino effect, it's the weakest link in the chain idea. Granted we went 1-3 in our last 4 but we had good offensive games save Tennessee. We ran well, Eli was protected better and our offense clicked. I would like to see an upgrade sure, but we are so full of holes it's ridiculous. The roster and OL keeps improving and we'll see what happens at center. I for one like what I saw from Halapio and Pulley after he settled in. Most disagree but I think Halapio can play.
This is about trusting Gettleman and Shurmur  
Giantimistic : 5/15/2019 8:25 am : link
I have decided to trust them so I have no worries about this position. If I can’t trust a GM who has a solid history building olines and a HC who was a college center, then I am not sure what to trust with the team. They seem to like their centers for now so I do too. What will be most telling is if they draft one high next year which would show they were talking up this year’s players but really just didn’t have the chance to upgrade.
Mini Camp might be a clue  
Blue Racer : 5/15/2019 9:15 am : link
After mini camp, they may get a better take on whether or not to bring in more competition at center. The only one out there who appears to be an option is Sullivan. So maybe they might try to get him at a vet minimum to come in and compete.
While true  
Nolan64 : 5/15/2019 2:24 pm : link
that as an O-Line we still have a lot of room for improvement. Pulley wasn't the best but in a pinch he fared better than we could've hoped. Halapio is the coach's choice and not just for his strength which is prodigious but Shurmur an ex center, is confident he can do the job. While exploring options, adding competition can only help in developing both players. As a whole, a big shout out to DG. True northeasterner. He's not going to let dissenting outside influences deter him from his mandate. Trying to rebuild a roster and remain competitive cannot be easy. 1 more year good draft and quality FA signings and we can challenge for the playoffs and eventually the SB.
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