Dan Graziano, national NFL writer: New York Giants. They've made themselves an easy target, but it's all justified. You can't tell me they're better for trading Odell Beckham Jr., for letting Landon Collins leave and sign with a division rival instead of holding him in place with an affordable $11.15 million franchise tag, for trading pass-rusher Olivier Vernon then passing up on outside linebacker Josh Allen at pick No. 6 so they could take a quarterback who had a 59.9 completion percentage in the ACC. When your team has missed the playoffs six of the past seven seasons, what you want to know is that it at least has a plan and a vision for how to pull out of the malaise. There's little evidence that the Giants have that.
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this as well
Plenty of people were beating that same drum in 2013, especially after three lousy drafts and that stupid Super Bowl clock. But just because Graziano was right in 2013 doesn't mean he's right in 2019.
The myth/conventional wisdom on BBI is "Reese didn't care about the offensive line." But if you look at the Giants' drafting and free agent signings while he was GM, he threw enormous resources at the O-line. Lots of draft picks (including a first for Pugh, a second for Beatty, a second for Richburg, and later picks for a bunch of guys), lots of free agent dollars (Baas and Schwartz off the top of my head). It's not that he didn't care about fixing the line. He clearly cared A LOT. He just flat-out failed, time and time again.
Failure is worse than indifference. Indifference implies that if he'd just tried, he could have fixed it. He did try and didn't fix it. The draftees fizzled. The free agents too. Lots of resources and years down the drain.
Worse.
Beckham, Vernon, Harrison, Collins...serial losers as Giants.
Gettleman isn't my favorite guy, but the criticism of his dismantling of the worst Giants teams I've ever seen makes no sense. Those four guys are among the worst Giants I've ever had the displeasure of cheering for. I liked the '90s Reeves teams better...those guys at least won more games.
2013-2018 is the worst era of Giants football I've ever seen, and those four losers are a big reason for that.
The overwhelming majority of national guys, not just at ESPN, think this team is a dumpster fire. Peter King last week had us 28 out of 32 teams. Wait until the preseason stuff comes out during training camp. I'd be shocked if we get picked for anything other than last place.
Remember all of this, and hammer these guys accordingly, and never let them forget it.
5 points from finishing 7-1. I'm not saying this is a 14-2 team but the way the media continues to hammer them is unwarranted and honestly fucking stupid. I read an NFL.com article that said the Cardinals were more likely to make the playoffs. It's absurd.
OBJ needed to go for reasons discussed and I think it is better for Jones when he takes over in the long run.
Vernon was hurt too much and that usually gets worst as one ages. Collins was poor in coverage and not worth signing on past accomplishments. Snacks wanted more money and he provided little pash rush and also had injury and age concerns.
I see a much improved O-line with depth and competition. I am a little concerned with WR but will trust Shurmer's offense to score a lot. Defense is bigger, faster and young with a lot of potential in the secondary.
Regarding Jones being tied to the success of the draft I do not agree. If we get three impact players then it is still a very good draft if Jones is a game manager.
different and more tolerable than the horror show of the last two years
it always was going to take three years to recover from an aging qb and no ol or dl or db unit or lb unit.
We were really really bad.
Lou Brown's pregame speech - ( New Window )
Seriously, very , very seriously.
Shaun O'Hara was very complimentary about Peppers. Says he lined up in many places in the defense to keep them guessing. Says he can play slot corner.
As for last year's defense, honestly when a team coming off a three win season starts the next season 1-7, do you expect the veterans to play as hard as they would if the game mattered. A lot of fans were rooting for losses at the end of the season so the team would have a top ten draft pick.
The overwhelming majority of national guys, not just at ESPN, think this team is a dumpster fire. Peter King last week had us 28 out of 32 teams. Wait until the preseason stuff comes out during training camp. I'd be shocked if we get picked for anything other than last place.
Why are you so fixated on what the national media says? This team was full of losers & they are fixing it. I finally see a plan here. Most media is drooling at the thought of Mayfield & Beckham, it’s so predictable.
The one big hole on offense is that deep threat the keeps safeties honest. If Corey Coleman or Darius Slayton contribute as the deep threat then this offense could be very good.
With a new QB on board that is hopefully our franchise QB the Giants' main focus, besides addresses the pass rush, should be to find Jones a #1 WR in the draft. It's very rare for young #1 WR's hit free agency so they will have to focus on the draft for a potential WR.
Here’s a friendly reminder of pre-DG
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But they play a puff cake schedule and their line won’t kneecap them like last year.. so I could see them winning a few more games and playing better than they did the first 3/4 of last year.
But does that mean they improved much? I don’t think so.
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
Odell is the only “loss”
Vernon hasn’t had double digit sacks since 2013, was a poor scheme fit, and an injury concern. He was turned into 1 of the best guards in the NFL.
Collins hasn’t been great since 2016, has injury concerns, and is a major liability in coverage on top of being a poor scheme fit. His “loss” will render a 3/4 round pick in compensation ... on top of the fact Jabril Peppers is an upgrade, especially in coverage.
Snacks has been replaced by a younger, more athletic version of him.
What other great players did we “lose”?
Maybe I’m still smarting (no pun intended) over the Celtics just getting bounced, but they are a useful paradigm for the Gettleman tenure. The Celts had a team with a boatload of talent but the parts were clearly greater than their sum.
Not saying that there were locker room issues on the Celtics (if there were, they were pretty hidden) but there was no chemistry. Likewise with last year’s and before Giants it was more than just the players ability, it was fit and chemistry all the other stuff that goes into team. Oh yeah, the talent, u like the C’s, was pretty shitty too, but we’re talking about some of their most talented players in this case.
None of the reasons that the players Graziano et al talk about were jettisoned show up on the back of their playing cards. But that’s the entirety of their “research” and their knowledge, so you can’t really blame them for that piece of ignorance.
Why pay someone $13M who has trouble wrapping up and in coverage?
We can be optimists and also be realists.
I mean, what's the point?
BBI bragging rights?
I love the Giants offseason.
I really like the draft.
I'm assuming/expecting the we got the best QB prospect.
I'm going into each week expecting a W.
This isn't unrealistic. It's positively.
Would you eant the team to think differently?
No?
So why do so many of you?
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
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as will pass protection, but we're down one playmaker at WR, one at Edge, and a lot of young parts to integrate.
you mean the playmaker WR who only played half of the games over the past two seasons, quit at the end of last season, and has shit on this franchise outside of the lines? That playmaker WR?
We will miss his potential... maybe.
He was part of a losing culture, but he was still an impact player. Was he the same as pre-injury? No, I don't believe he was but they still moved him out with no replacement.
Snark not warranted.
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This team has less talent than last year?
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
Just focus on the offense for a second.
Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.
The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.
Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season.
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This team has less talent than last year?
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
There are no guarantees in life bud. But as usual you complete miss the point. Tate, Remmers, Zeitler, Bethea, Peppers & Golden have never played a game? Try a little harder to be a contrarian.
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In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:
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This team has less talent than last year?
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
Just focus on the offense for a second.
Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.
The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.
This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'
The fact is that there's no longer any receiving threat that scares defenses on this team anymore, except maybe Engram, who can't block so when he's in teams can pretty much predict a passing play. Get ready for Barkley to dive into 8 or 9 man fronts 20 times a game and Shepard or Tate to catch 5 yard crossing patterns on 3rd and 8.
And that's before we talk about the defense, who doesn't have a pass rusher that scares anyone. Balance!
But whatever! The culture will be great! They're not rebuilding! Eli can still play!
Maybe Gettleman is right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe it was correct to take a RB at 2 instead of trade down with a roster full of holes. Maybe you can trade away all your best players for picks but somehow say you can still win, which means keeping your 38 year old QB who has been nothing except average for the last three years. Maybe you should pick a QB with the 6 pick who has a 59.9% percent completion rate in college.
This isn't the 2015 Giants D which was a joke on paper. There is speed and talent 15, 16 deep on D. They could be like that DAL D everyone ragged on that ended up being very good due to overall team speed and coaching.
And who do the Pats have that scares you deep? It's not as critical as you think.
This isn't the 2015 Giants D which was a joke on paper. There is speed and talent 15, 16 deep on D. They could be like that DAL D everyone ragged on that ended up being very good due to overall team speed and coaching.
And who do the Pats have that scares you deep? It's not as critical as you think.
They have Tom Brady, for one thing. And nothing you said about the defense is objective. Could they be good? Sure! I might win 50K on this scratch off too.
The fact is that our most accomplished pass rusher had four sacks last year and is in the second year of a comeback from major knee surgery. He's on a one-year deal, which should tell you something.
Other than that, I don't know how you measure hungriness from any objective standard. I am glad they're younger. I don't know if that makes them good yet.
They lost all 4 games?? Nope.
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In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:
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This team has less talent than last year?
Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.
Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.
+
A very young roster being a year older.
And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
Just focus on the offense for a second.
Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.
The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.
I don't know what to make of the offense. It should be more consistent as long as the OL is healthy, but the late season numbers are fudged by games against horrid defenses like tampa, a redskins team that visibly quit on the field, and a cowboys team that was resting starters. But those things are fine for debate.
It's hard not to like the improvements on defense, but I think the improvements they made lay the foundation for better play in a year or two. With a player like Bethea, he's 35-36 years old. You just hope this isn't the year the clock strikes 12 on his ability to play.
To me they're 3/4s of the way toward saying they finished a rebuild. Josh Allen would have been that franchise guy to build the defense around, I think.
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This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'
They lost all 4 games?? Nope.
Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.
I'm a "I want the Giants to be smarter" type guy. I am hoping they do well. I don't see how.
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you might want to fact check:
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This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'
They lost all 4 games?? Nope.
Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.
Your metric is W-L in an argument bashing the trading of Beckham?
the rest were replaceable pieces
BTW DG looks like a genius now for trading JPP
What his agenda is, I don't know. But it doesn't seem to be reporting objectively on the moves Dave Gettleman has made. This is an attack that has nothing to do with giving an honest critique.
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you might want to fact check:
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This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'
They lost all 4 games?? Nope.
Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.
Couple things, the Colts were a top 10 defense in multiple categories, top 10 scoring,points, top 6 rush defense, top 6 passing TDS allowed.
Leading receiver 77 yards won't win you a lot of games?
Neither will having a horrendous roster with a superstar WR putting up 100 yard games. Beckham put up 100 yards receiving in 5 games last year and the Giants went 1-4 in those games. They scored above 20 points just twice in those 5 games.
I don't think anyone would suggest losing a player of Beckham's caliber is a good thing. However, this same player was on the teams that picked top 10, top 6, top 2 in the draft. The Giants had a poor roster, and in turn for Beckham they've added Dexter Lawrence, Jabrill Peppers, Oshane Ximines, and Julian Love(remember the OBJ trade got us our 4th rounder back). We had a bad roster, and we got 4 good young players in return for 1 great player.
+1.
I haven;t gone to other sites but listening to the tv, listening to the radio and friends -who are either Giants fans or not -- say "WTF" are they doing?
IMO it's all as another poster said-- it's all dependent onJones. WIth another draft next year and lots of cap space 2020 is the season to analyze.
I want to say if there was a network i could watch sports on that was not by name ESPN id do it in a second. First off, ESPN "reporters" are garbage. Their articles are trash with little to zero fact finding. If I wanted an opinion id ask fans. Horrible reporting 24/7. Trash writers. I am still befounded that they have been going after U of A basketball program with zero evidence and still acting as if new evidence has been found. If you want to slander a team there are plenty of squads cough cough duke, kansas, kentucky that all scout same players and do ill advised things behind scene. U of A not one of them. But I digress, to say that any article written by a writer of this trash network most likely speaking from their asses. No facts, nothing. Just I heard or I know someone from the inside said.. its all circumstantial.
In comment 14443332 Platos said: