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Giants declined the most of any team in the NFL this offseas

armstead98 : 5/14/2019 1:19 pm
Dan Graziano, national NFL writer: New York Giants. They've made themselves an easy target, but it's all justified. You can't tell me they're better for trading Odell Beckham Jr., for letting Landon Collins leave and sign with a division rival instead of holding him in place with an affordable $11.15 million franchise tag, for trading pass-rusher Olivier Vernon then passing up on outside linebacker Josh Allen at pick No. 6 so they could take a quarterback who had a 59.9 completion percentage in the ACC. When your team has missed the playoffs six of the past seven seasons, what you want to know is that it at least has a plan and a vision for how to pull out of the malaise. There's little evidence that the Giants have that.
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keep talking shit Graziano  
Platos : 5/14/2019 1:22 pm : link
guys almost never right lol
What a unique storyline... "Gettleman Has No Plan"  
regulator : 5/14/2019 1:23 pm : link
the sheer novelty of it is simply shocking.
Wasn't  
HoustonGiant : 5/14/2019 1:25 pm : link
getting Saquon instead of a QB really stupid too?

Peppers > Collins  
Phil in LA : 5/14/2019 1:25 pm : link
.
Now do people believe me when I say that...  
Milton : 5/14/2019 1:27 pm : link
...the Giants will win the division!? How much more proof do you need then when the media is unanimously against them.
Peppers is better than Collins...  
Damon : 5/14/2019 1:28 pm : link
Vernon was declining always hurt...
Zietler is a stud lineman at a position one could argue of most need...
And they picked up 2 defensive starters in the first round...

Yes we’re missing an explosive WR. BUT the best RB IN THE GAME... will be better behind this new line... as will Eli. And when the baton is passed to Jones.... He will already be spoiled with more talent around him than ever before....

I think we will be pleasantly surprised... And I bet.... Jones gets a full redshirt this year...
You can argue with him on many of his points  
Bill L : 5/14/2019 1:29 pm : link
but the one about Jones is gratuitous.

I didn't want Jones (or any other QB) this year and would have been elated had they chosen Allen.

*However* not getting Allen does not make us or contribute to a decline. At best, it's "stay the same when you could have improved". So, the inclusion is phony.

Further, had we not picked Jones, he would have written a story about DG's failure to plan for a future without Eli. The Jones part is simply a scuzzy version of "damned if you do and damned if you don't."
How do we trade all our beat writers?  
George from PA : 5/14/2019 1:31 pm : link
?
Draft hinges  
pjcas18 : 5/14/2019 1:34 pm : link
on Jones and won't be known likely until 2020 season.

If Eli is Eli of the past two years (no improvement and clearly not the future) and Jones shits the bed, this was a disaster of a draft no matter how much kool-aid anyone drinks.
RE: You can argue with him on many of his points  
Beezer : 5/14/2019 1:34 pm : link
In comment 14443347 Bill L said:
Quote:
but the one about Jones is gratuitous.

I didn't want Jones (or any other QB) this year and would have been elated had they chosen Allen.

*However* not getting Allen does not make us or contribute to a decline. At best, it's "stay the same when you could have improved". So, the inclusion is phony.

Further, had we not picked Jones, he would have written a story about DG's failure to plan for a future without Eli. The Jones part is simply a scuzzy version of "damned if you do and damned if you don't."


This.
Graziano has to write something  
SGMen : 5/14/2019 1:35 pm : link
Let him write.

Victory is sweet and I feel this team has better leadership, less drama, and more talent on the OL and defense this year than last.

Yes, we don't have a #1 WR that can draw double teams but neither did New England. I see us using a traditional "quick hit" West Coast offense and we have WR C. Coleman for deep plays as well as rookie 5th rounder Slayer.

9-7, give or take a game, as long as we are healthy on the lines and Saquon.
DG has no plan, other than to  
mfsd : 5/14/2019 1:36 pm : link
- rebuild the OL
- rebuild the defense
- draft a successor to Eli
- let go of overpriced vets
- create cap space for the future
- accumulate extra draft picks

Wonder when he’s going to start doing those things? Oh wait...
Given the talent we traded away  
JonC : 5/14/2019 1:38 pm : link
he could be correct. Hard to argue the young talent is better than the proven talent we moved out.
No plan  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 1:40 pm : link
I feel like rebuilding the OL, drafting the best offensive prospect available in years (who happens to be a RB), overhauling the Secondary, building a potential “brick wall” of a DL, and adding good system fits on defense while drafting a young QB to develop and ridding the team of bad contracts is a brilliant plan

I won’t even remember Vernon was a Giant in a few years, but let’s act like “losing” him and Collins is like getting rid of Reggie White and Ronnie Lott.

I like this kind of nonsense, the Giants play better when they are repeatedly dismissed/written off by the media. Keep it coming!
Beckham helped a hell of a lot  
BSIMatt : 5/14/2019 1:41 pm : link
when the Giants were 1-8 last year. I loved Beckham, but let's not overstate the impact of one WR on an entire offense when the line was a collaborative turnstile.

So, loss of Beckham, also equals the loss revolving door at RG and RT(hopefully). You can't acknowledge loss of Beckham, without acknowledging at the very minimum the addition by subtraction on the right side of the OLine with Wheeler, the addition of one of the best right guards in football, the addition of Tate, to at least soften the blow of losing Beckham with a proven productive veteran RAC WR. You can't just talk about loss of Beckham as if he some god in cleats, who had no impact the ineptness of the offensive line last year and the dismal start to 2018. We had Beckham last year and the offense was a laughing stock to start the season, WITH Odell. The line needed to be addressed. What a lazy analysis by Graziano.
Rushing attack will improve  
JonC : 5/14/2019 1:42 pm : link
as will pass protection, but we're down one playmaker at WR, one at Edge, and a lot of young parts to integrate.
Sorry, "analysis"  
BSIMatt : 5/14/2019 1:42 pm : link
by Graziano.
Outside of BBI  
UberAlias : 5/14/2019 1:49 pm : link
Nearly everyone I’ve spoken with shares his perspective. Let’s face it, the team made a lot of controversial moves. Only time will tell if they were right.
I just don't get it  
GiantGrit : 5/14/2019 1:49 pm : link
How are people still hung up on the lack of plan story line? I think its reasonable to ask whether getting rid of Collins and Odell was the right decision, but they clearly have a plan. The right plan? I don't know yet. But i see it clearly.
Graziano getting his revenge  
Reese's Pieces : 5/14/2019 1:51 pm : link
for the years the Giants made him look like a fool for underrating them so much.

Vernon - not a good enough player to get excited about.

OBJ - arguably, at least one and maybe two of his prime years wasted on non-contending Giants while a contending team (Cleveland?) willing to give up assets to turn the Giants around faster.

Collins - No excuse. Write off last season. Team began 1-7, JPP and Snacks unexpectedly traded. Defense quit.

Jones - If he turns into an elite quarterback that is the only thing that will be remembered about this draft.
It will be nice to see Eli behind a professional offensive line  
GiantBlue : 5/14/2019 1:52 pm : link
Reese treated the OL like an annoyance he had to fill. Gettleman treats the OL like the mainspring of life for this offense.

It will be nice to not have that "hey throw to me" that OBJ brought to each series where it seemed Eli had to force passes into tight areas so he could catch his slants.

Maybe we can get back to the deeper passing game again with this OL. Maybe we can see sparks of the old Eli again which would be wonderful.
Hmmm...  
Amtoft : 5/14/2019 1:52 pm : link
Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better

only worse is WR and really we lost a big distraction and added a good blocking WR that makes people miss.
I love how he mentions Vernon  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 1:56 pm : link
Guy has had 1 10+ sack season (in 2013), been hurt last 2 years, and they got 1 of the best G in the league in exchange

It was a brilliant move, but I guess guards aren’t “sexy”
RE: It will be nice to see Eli behind a professional offensive line  
chuckydee9 : 5/14/2019 1:57 pm : link
In comment 14443384 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
Reese treated the OL like an annoyance he had to fill. Gettleman treats the OL like the mainspring of life for this offense.

It will be nice to not have that "hey throw to me" that OBJ brought to each series where it seemed Eli had to force passes into tight areas so he could catch his slants.

Maybe we can get back to the deeper passing game again with this OL. Maybe we can see sparks of the old Eli again which would be wonderful.


Eli forces the passes to everyone.. let's not make it out like obj was the reason for Eli forcing the ball..
RE: Hmmm...  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14443385 Amtoft said:
Quote:
Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better

only worse is WR and really we lost a big distraction and added a good blocking WR that makes people miss.


This. The team is much better as a whole.

Funny how quickly people forget the state of this team/run game 2 years ago
RE: Hmmm...  
JonC : 5/14/2019 1:58 pm : link
In comment 14443385 Amtoft said:
Quote:
Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better

only worse is WR and really we lost a big distraction and added a good blocking WR that makes people miss.


A lot of those parts on defense are rookies and 2nd year players.
Yes, improving virtually every position on the team  
BillT : 5/14/2019 1:59 pm : link
While drafting your next QB certainly screams "no plan". The press thinks they can tell us anything and we'll believe it. The media narrative must be right.
It's a fair assessment  
AcesUp : 5/14/2019 2:02 pm : link
It all hinges on how our unproven talent progresses. Those on the outside barely factor that in while those on here assume every prospect will work out. It's no different than how we look at other rosters. Take Lorenzo Carter, I doubt many of you are putting much stock in how a random team's 3rd rounder from last year that flashed may upgrade their team this year.
So.. they won less than 6 games the last 2 years  
GiantsRage2007 : 5/14/2019 2:03 pm : link
I bet if they brought everyone back - the article would be - "same players returning, but hoping for different result is insanity"

BS ....  
Beer Man : 5/14/2019 2:06 pm : link
Sure DG traded OBJ and drafted DJ at #6. I could see the arguments that these were unwise decisions. But making unpopular decisions doesn't equate to the Giants declining, maybe you could say they could have received better value with better decisions. The OL has improved (albeit there is still more work to do), the DBs have greatly improved, and the team pickup a stud for the middle of the DL. Declined? I don't think so. Could they have done more? Probably, but time will answer that.
The Dolphins get a few mentions  
shyster : 5/14/2019 2:06 pm : link
for team that has declined the most but they are also given credit for not trying to be "in the middle" and clearing the decks for a full rebuild.

Solder, Zeitler, Tate; on the other side of 30. They may help NYG be respectable this year but are they going to be in the picture when Daniel Jones is ready to lead this team to anything?

Joe Thomas retired after his age 32 year. There are many more Joe Thomases, or guys just hanging on, than there are Andrew Wbitworths.

I was not opposed to trading OBJ but I wouldn't have spent the money saved on old Golden Tate and average Sterling Shepherd, who should be readily replaceable in the draft.

That's where the "no plan" criticism comes from. We'll see if the Giants can play the "in the middle" game to future success.
Seems like the Giants potential success has become  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 5/14/2019 2:06 pm : link
less certain, not more in decline. When you trade older established players for newer less established players, you haven't necessarily gotten worse, you have become more uncertain - both on the upside and downside.
RE: RE: Hmmm...  
Amtoft : 5/14/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14443398 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14443385 Amtoft said:


Quote:


Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better

only worse is WR and really we lost a big distraction and added a good blocking WR that makes people miss.



A lot of those parts on defense are rookies and 2nd year players.


Marcus Golden, Peppers, and Bethea 3 veteran starters. Sure we are mixing in a rookie CB DeAndre Baker or basically rookie Sam Beal to replace who? Love could get some play also at nickel. That is on the other side of our veteran CB. A first round DL rookie who should get playing time, but we also got Olsen Pierre who plays well. Really Carter, the CBs and Dexter Lawerence are our only young players that should plenty get minutes. I guess you can add BJ Hill but he started so many games he isn't really a question mark.
What a fucking sheep  
BlueHurricane : 5/14/2019 2:09 pm : link
Anyone with half a brain can see this team is trending upward and flushed the locker room turds down the toilet.

This season is starting to remind me of the year where everyone (especially Da Pope) was laughing at the cowboys and saying they wouldn't win 4 games because their defense was going to be pure trash. That team won the East going away and made a deep run in the playoffs.
RE: Seems like the Giants potential success has become  
AcesUp : 5/14/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14443414 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
less certain, not more in decline. When you trade older established players for newer less established players, you haven't necessarily gotten worse, you have become more uncertain - both on the upside and downside.


Well put.
RE: Given the talent we traded away  
BillyM : 5/14/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14443366 JonC said:
Quote:
he could be correct. Hard to argue the young talent is better than the proven talent we moved out.


proven talent? I get your point, but proven talent finds wins for us.
If the team were going all-out to win in 2019, he might be right...  
Dan in the Springs : 5/14/2019 2:11 pm : link
but the team is preparing to win in 2019, while building the right team to continue to win and grow into the 2020's.

There is not just personnel turnover, but there is team-building. This team is being built right now.

I hope we show significant improvement, but nobody can deny that it's in years 2020 and 2021 that we should see the effects of the 2019 offseason.
Still need a WR and a EDGE rusher.  
Brown Recluse : 5/14/2019 2:12 pm : link
You don't need the best wideout in the game to have a top offense, but you do need a guy thats better than Tate or Shepard. And I just don't feel comfortable depending on Evan Engram. We'll see what happens but this is something that concerns me.

No pass rusher on this team right now that had more than 5.5 sacks last season. Huge gamble that Golden will recover and Carter will take a big leap.

Other than that, both lines are better. The secondary is vastly improved. I'll take the combo of Peppers/Bethea over Collins/Riley any day, and the CB position is pretty deep considering last year the #2 and #3 were Webb and Haley.

Its definitely a better team overall and the plan should be pretty clear to anyone who has paid attention. This season may not turn out great but I see a huge leap in 2020.
RE: Hmmm...  
bw in dc : 5/14/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14443385 Amtoft said:
Quote:
Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better



I'll give you the OL.

As for the rest, you must be looking into a very reliable crystal ball because I have no idea how you can be so firm in those conclusions.

I could argue the complete other way with all of the unproven parts.

Just remember all of this...  
Britt in VA : 5/14/2019 2:13 pm : link
if the Giants have a good season this year.

Remember all of this, and hammer these guys accordingly, and never let them forget it.
RE: Given the talent we traded away  
Amtoft : 5/14/2019 2:13 pm : link
In comment 14443366 JonC said:
Quote:
he could be correct. Hard to argue the young talent is better than the proven talent we moved out.


I don't agree... We have more experience at Safety and I think a big upgrade just by not having Riley there. We replace Oliver Vernon with Markus Golden who has plenty of experience especially in this Def. We add Pierre Olsen and a big time rookie in Dexter Lawrence. What veteran players did we move out and not replace with veterans? Only position I can see is one CB spot and it won't be hard for that to be an upgrade with DeAndre Baker and Sam Beal.
Bethea is close to the end  
JonC : 5/14/2019 2:16 pm : link
stop gap, Golden hasn't returned to form.

I like Peppers upside a great deal, but he still needs to do it on the field, not just the paper. That's the case for all the young bucks, that's the point.
For as much as we talk about TEAM in football  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/14/2019 2:17 pm : link
it borders on weird how people attempt to rationalize that if a player doesn't singlehandedly deliver wins he must not be that talented.


That's not how football works.
So, if Giants win 6 games this year  
ZogZerg : 5/14/2019 2:17 pm : link
This guy will be proven, again, to be full of shit - right?
RE: RE: Given the talent we traded away  
JonC : 5/14/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14443420 BillyM said:
Quote:
In comment 14443366 JonC said:


Quote:


he could be correct. Hard to argue the young talent is better than the proven talent we moved out.



proven talent? I get your point, but proven talent finds wins for us.


Sure, but there's no denying who has performed in the NFL and who has yet to provide more than a small sample size of hope. And, I say that as one who's glad the proven talent is gone, from a character standpoint.
Spectacular analysis  
Stu11 : 5/14/2019 2:19 pm : link
Rip the Giants mentioning only the guys they got rid of as if Thanos made them all go poof, with no replacements. "No plan"? Seriously? we're still on that line? They stacked up on D with this draft, drafted who they feel is their future starting QB, shored up the O-line, and with the OBJ/Vernon trades signaled that they were going to take on tons of dead money this season and re-set with tons of cap room and very possibly another top 10 pick next season. Listen its not all roses. If Jones isn't a franchise QB then the plan is seriously flawed, and of course you can never count on it as a sure thing the draft picks and young guys brought in to live up to expectations. However to sit there and say there is no plan is flat out lazy if not totally blind analysis.
As to the OP  
JonC : 5/14/2019 2:20 pm : link
I think the Giants can win 6 games, I believe they will be a better team in 2019. But, there is proven production out the door and a lot of optimism on the young bucks to get it done.
This is the common refrain  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 5/14/2019 2:22 pm : link
The problem is that the average Joe (or ill-informed sportswriter) doesn't realize that Collins was a poor scheme fit, it diesnt matter how reasonable the tag number is, its still 11 million for a poor scheme fit.

As for Vernon, people know his name so they gasp when he gets traded, but his production wasn't great.
I can't take Graziano seriously when he says things like this:  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 2:22 pm : link
Quote:
...letting Landon Collins leave and sign with a division rival instead of holding him in place with an affordable $11.15 million franchise tag...


There's no guarantee that Collins would have accepted the tag, in fact, if I'm not mistaken he said he wouldn't. Regardless, he's regressed every year since his 2016 All-Pro season, and he's also a "shoulder-tackler" who's got a bum shoulder, and he's a liability in coverage. If you buy what PFF is selling, Jabril Peppers graded out higher than Collins in 2018. Peppers is an ascending player. You can't say that about Collins. And Peppers is a much better fit in Bettcher's defense than Collins is.

And, no, they didn't draft Josh Allen to replace Olivier Vernon, but they did sign Markus Golden to beef up their pass-rush, and no doubt they have high hopes for Lorenzo Carter and Oshane Ximines at ER/OLB.
Sounds like there is some  
TMS : 5/14/2019 2:26 pm : link
animosity for DG in the local press. Keep writing hit pieces week after week . HTF needs them. We will see when the season begins.
RE: RE: Hmmm...  
Amtoft : 5/14/2019 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14443425 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14443385 Amtoft said:


Quote:


Safeties better
CBs better
DL better
OLB better
OL better





I'll give you the OL.

As for the rest, you must be looking into a very reliable crystal ball because I have no idea how you can be so firm in those conclusions.

I could argue the complete other way with all of the unproven parts.


DL is almost the same expect we added Dexter Lawrence and Pierre Olsen. How is that not better?

Safeties You replace Landon Collins and Curtis Riley with Peppers and Bethea.. you don't think that is better? Riley was a crap show and Collins who I loved isn't so much better than Peppers or Bethea that replacing a super crappy Safety and a good one with two good ones doesn't make it better

OLB you are right though. I like Markus Golden and think he will be great, but has also been injured like Vernon. Two 3rd round players Carter and OX haven't shown enough, but who are they replacing? Kareem Martin is still here so even if he starts the difference is Markus Golden for Vernon Oliver plus a 2nd year Carter who was coming on late and a 3rd round rookie. They don't have to be that much better for OLB to be better.

CBs we are replacing Eli Apple and then BW Webb with our Top CB in the draft who I love DeAndre Baker or second year player Sam Beal. Not to mention the depth we added with Love who can also play some safety. Jackrabbit is back so you really don't think Baker or maybe even Beal will play better than BW Webb or Apple? I mean to me they are better and the depth is much better. Haley is still here also who showed promise.
So apparently Graziano is a professional NFL analyst now..  
90.Cal : 5/14/2019 2:35 pm : link
Wow, look what has become of this world.
Got it  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/14/2019 2:35 pm : link
This team has been garbage for almost a decade, why did we change the roster!?!
young talent is cheaper  
BigBlueCane : 5/14/2019 2:35 pm : link
the old mix was proven to not be working and the idea one needs a playmaker at WR is out-dated as the Pats and others have demonstrated repeatedly.

What matters more is system/scheme as well as its execution. Much more so then the talent in the system.

Did Danny think Julian Edelman was amazing when he was drafted in the 7th round?
At the end of the day....  
John In CO : 5/14/2019 2:40 pm : link
Who flipping cares what this guy thinks? He is a person with an opinion and a platform. What he THINKS, what any of us THINK, doesnt make a damn bit of difference. He has his opinions and gets paid to publish them. Good for him. He is entitled.

It never ceases to amaze me how a writers opinion, prediction, etc... of the Giants-be it a prediction about their record, season outlook or, God Forbid, whether Daniel Jones was the right pick- can send people over the edge if they dont agree with it!

Opinions, especially "expert" opinions, are truly like assholes....I mean, think back: in the past two Giants Super Bowl victories, how many experts predicted the Giants to win? In fact, how many experts picked the Giants to win ANY of their playoff games either year?!?!? Answer: not a lot. Did it matter???????
RE: Sounds like there is some  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/14/2019 2:41 pm : link
In comment 14443452 TMS said:
Quote:
animosity for DG in the local press. Keep writing hit pieces week after week . HTF needs them. We will see when the season begins.

I dont get it, DG has gotten more hate in 1 year than Reese ever did who was treated with kids gloves. How many times has fatboy Francessca ranted on about Reese?
In the VERY short term  
Dave on the UWS : 5/14/2019 2:44 pm : link
he’s probably correct. But the “plan” is the correct one to build a consistent winner. The press only looks short term for headlines and clickbait.
Graziano doesn't see any evidence of a plan...  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 2:47 pm : link
Because he doesn't want to, plain and simple.

He doesn't see that the Giants couldn't cover opposing WR's for love or money last year, which is why they've revamped their entire Secondary except for Janoris Jenkins. They've got two new starting Safeties, and if their CB's are all young and unproven, well, you've got to start somewhere, and since when did building through the draft become a bad thing?

He doesn't see that they added a potentially dominant NT who's a lot more than your prototypical "two-down-run-stuffer." A huge guy who can impact the pass-rush in a variety of ways, and make life a hell of a lot easier for his fellow D-Linemen and Linebackers, too.

Oh, and he doesn't think much of Daniel Jones, either. Big surprise.
NY Giants are a team people love to hate  
DavidinBMNY : 5/14/2019 2:52 pm : link
Graziano is generating clicks.

Just tune it out at this point. This is the narrative until something on the field changes.
Graziano is smart  
Thegratefulhead : 5/14/2019 2:59 pm : link
He knows Giant fans are easily trolled. Understanding that simple fact is what launched him into a national position. All you have to do get massive impressions is to say something controversial about the Giants and it will get widely shared and commented on. That is the goal of their job, their bosses don't care if it is accurate, they care about views. It should be no surprise to anyone that Ranaan is following the same script.
You gotta tear it down to build it up.  
MOOPS : 5/14/2019 3:02 pm : link
Step one: get rid of the underachievers, malcontents and misfits.
Step two: replace those with youthful talent, when available, and proven vets. If you make a mistake along the way, admit it and move on quickly.
Step three: Build through the draft.


DG seems to be on course.
RE: Peppers is better than Collins...  
japanhead : 5/14/2019 3:03 pm : link
In comment 14443345 Damon said:
Quote:
Vernon was declining always hurt...
Zietler is a stud lineman at a position one could argue of most need...
And they picked up 2 defensive starters in the first round...


going into the offseason i think most of us thought RT was the position of most need, and were comfortable with the idea of brown at RG. BBI consensus other position of most need was edge rusher.

i don't fault gettleman for rebuilding the lines from the inside out. i also don't fault him for going so heavy on DBs in this draft if that's where the value was. the team needed a full overhaul by the time he arrived.
Landon Collins  
RobCarpenter : 5/14/2019 3:33 pm : link
Watch this non-effort here from last year:

Don't want to refight the Collins war.  
Reese's Pieces : 5/14/2019 3:36 pm : link
We'll see how he does in Washington. Twice a year. A lot of good football minds did not understand disposing of Collins, especially for nothing.

Graziano hated the move, so that's one thing in its favor.

If the Browns thought that Peppers was All Pro caliber, they would not have traded him. They would have traded next year's pick. You don't build franchises by trading one All Pro for another.
Letting go of Collins was one of the most obvious moves. You don't  
Ira : 5/14/2019 3:41 pm : link
want to tie up $14/year on a box safety who can't cover.
RE: Don't want to refight the Collins war.  
Giantz_comeback : 5/14/2019 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14443565 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
We'll see how he does in Washington. Twice a year. A lot of good football minds did not understand disposing of Collins, especially for nothing.

Graziano hated the move, so that's one thing in its favor.

If the Browns thought that Peppers was All Pro caliber, they would not have traded him. They would have traded next year's pick. You don't build franchises by trading one All Pro for another.


When you are in love with the idea of what an OBJ talent (if his head is on right) can do for your offense you certainly WOULD trade a Safety even a potential all pro one for that.
RE: Don't want to refight the Collins war.  
Amtoft : 5/14/2019 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14443565 Reese's Pieces said:
Quote:
We'll see how he does in Washington. Twice a year. A lot of good football minds did not understand disposing of Collins, especially for nothing.

Graziano hated the move, so that's one thing in its favor.

If the Browns thought that Peppers was All Pro caliber, they would not have traded him. They would have traded next year's pick. You don't build franchises by trading one All Pro for another.


The Giants wouldn't have taken that trade... they said they wanted Peppers.
RE: I just don't get it  
joeinpa : 5/14/2019 3:46 pm : link
In comment 14443381 GiantGrit said:
Quote:
How are people still hung up on the lack of plan story line? I think its reasonable to ask whether getting rid of Collins and Odell was the right decision, but they clearly have a plan. The right plan? I don't know yet. But i see it clearly.


People are easily swayed by talking pts be it sports or politics. The narrative about the Giants has been repeated enough that fans who don’t follow the Giants of course would have that POV
I don't get this  
Blue Racer : 5/14/2019 3:49 pm : link
Aside from everything others have mentioned about how Dave is revamping the entire team, and how it obvious it is that he is maximizing capability at every critical position, it's boldly clear that he and Shurmur are drafting a specific personality to match their system and locker room culture.

For instance, it's getting more and more obvious that Haskins is a better character fit for Snyder's Gang than in the Giants' locker room. Same goes, to a lesser extent, for Lock. Once Murray was gone (and his diminutive size is a real concern) the only choice left was Jones.

Jeez, it's not hard to suss out the logic of that.
LC is showing effort in that gif. Really had no where to hit him  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/14/2019 3:59 pm : link
with two of his guys just blowing the tackle. I swear some people sound like the guy that dates a girl for a couple years, they split up and than convinces himself she was an ugly whore anyway, good riddance.

There is a ton of optimism about young unproven talent, but this is the NFL and most guys that do go on to have 10 year careers are barely serviceable their rookie year. We have a ton of those guys and no depth anywhere. Sure maybe we can have a winning season if the team stays healthy, Eli shows he's still capable with an O-Line, and the young secondary figures out the game real fast (have my doubts on this one) so we can generate pressure through scheme. Our pash rush was anemic until Vernon came back from injury. Not saying it was even average with Vernon and he's not a big sack guy, but when he was out last year opposing teams had ALL DAY to throw, I think people are forgetting the beginning of last season. This team has had a bunch of turnover again this year and to expect it to gel right away isn't likely.

To say this team doesn't have a plan though is horseshit. This was going to take a few years to turnaround, especially because the vision for the team is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than it was under JR. If 2020 doesn't result in a winning season and nothing insane happens, everyone will need to go and we'll need to start over.
RE: LC is showing effort in that gif. Really had no where to hit him  
RobCarpenter : 5/14/2019 4:19 pm : link
In comment 14443614 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
with two of his guys just blowing the tackle. I swear some people sound like the guy that dates a girl for a couple years, they split up and than convinces himself she was an ugly whore anyway, good riddance.


He takes himself right out of the play there.
RE: RE: LC is showing effort in that gif. Really had no where to hit him  
RobCarpenter : 5/14/2019 4:24 pm : link
In comment 14443668 RobCarpenter said:
Quote:
In comment 14443614 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


with two of his guys just blowing the tackle. I swear some people sound like the guy that dates a girl for a couple years, they split up and than convinces himself she was an ugly whore anyway, good riddance.


He takes himself right out of the play there.


Here's a clear missed tackle.



I might seem like I'm nitpicking - just noting that he wasn't this great player last year.
Saying he misses tackles and he doesn't give effort  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/14/2019 4:28 pm : link
are two completely different things. Saying you don't give effort is like the biggest slap in the face you can say to an athlete and that sure as shit isn't LC.
he's a good player but not the best S in the NFL  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2019 4:30 pm : link
and he's now the highest paid S in the league. He's tied for the 6th highest paid DB even including corners.

Passing on that contract (and hopefully getting back a comp pick) is a much more straightforward decision than OBJ - who is among the elite at his position.
For Graziano...  
Bramton1 : 5/14/2019 4:33 pm : link
A without shitting on the Giants is like a day without sunshine. Couldn't care less what he thinks.
I think I'll blow some of these up and take them to the range.  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 4:38 pm : link
I'm running low on Joe Montana pictures. Smile, Danny.

RE: Saying he misses tackles and he doesn't give effort  
RobCarpenter : 5/14/2019 4:41 pm : link
In comment 14443684 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
are two completely different things. Saying you don't give effort is like the biggest slap in the face you can say to an athlete and that sure as shit isn't LC.


That's fair. I was lazy in my word choice.
Keep ripping Graziano  
oldutican : 5/14/2019 5:07 pm : link
Just like you all did when he wrote this .
Foundational Rot - ( New Window )
RE: Given the talent we traded away  
micky : 5/14/2019 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14443366 JonC said:
Quote:
he could be correct. Hard to argue the young talent is better than the proven talent we moved out.


Wow an ubias objective view..refreshing
RE: Rushing attack will improve  
EricJ : 5/14/2019 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14443373 JonC said:
Quote:
as will pass protection, but we're down one playmaker at WR, one at Edge, and a lot of young parts to integrate.


you mean the playmaker WR who only played half of the games over the past two seasons, quit at the end of last season, and has shit on this franchise outside of the lines? That playmaker WR?

We will miss his potential... maybe.
hmmm  
giantfan2000 : 5/14/2019 5:16 pm : link
if you read the article

this as well
Quote:
Kevin Seifert, national NFL writer: New York Giants. Their moves were confounding, from dispatching two of their best young players in OBJ (26 years old) and Collins (25) to reaching for quarterback Daniel Jones. But from a bigger picture, their contradictory vision and an old-school approach suggest this franchise is headed toward an extended down cycle.
not really but you cannot erase or previous moves  
mdc1 : 5/14/2019 5:30 pm : link
and start running victory laps about returning to post season play. We are cleaning the horse stables that have not been cleaned out for quit some time. laziness comes to mind.
RE: Keep ripping Graziano  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 5:33 pm : link
In comment 14443728 oldutican said:
Quote:
Just like you all did when he wrote this . Foundational Rot - ( New Window )


Plenty of people were beating that same drum in 2013, especially after three lousy drafts and that stupid Super Bowl clock. But just because Graziano was right in 2013 doesn't mean he's right in 2019.
RE: It will be nice to see Eli behind a professional offensive line  
81_Great_Dane : 5/14/2019 5:48 pm : link
In comment 14443384 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
Reese treated the OL like an annoyance he had to fill.
This is a BBI myth that actually gives Reese too much credit.

The myth/conventional wisdom on BBI is "Reese didn't care about the offensive line." But if you look at the Giants' drafting and free agent signings while he was GM, he threw enormous resources at the O-line. Lots of draft picks (including a first for Pugh, a second for Beatty, a second for Richburg, and later picks for a bunch of guys), lots of free agent dollars (Baas and Schwartz off the top of my head). It's not that he didn't care about fixing the line. He clearly cared A LOT. He just flat-out failed, time and time again.

Failure is worse than indifference. Indifference implies that if he'd just tried, he could have fixed it. He did try and didn't fix it. The draftees fizzled. The free agents too. Lots of resources and years down the drain.

Worse.
It is so sad how much this reminds me of '64  
WillieYoung : 5/14/2019 5:52 pm : link
Got rid of a lot of veterans and thought the young guys were going to not only replace them but make us better. I pray it doesn't end the same.
I have never seen a more overrated group of players  
Go Terps : 5/14/2019 5:56 pm : link
You'd think the Giants just broke down a team that won 10-12 games a year.

Beckham, Vernon, Harrison, Collins...serial losers as Giants.

Gettleman isn't my favorite guy, but the criticism of his dismantling of the worst Giants teams I've ever seen makes no sense. Those four guys are among the worst Giants I've ever had the displeasure of cheering for. I liked the '90s Reeves teams better...those guys at least won more games.

2013-2018 is the worst era of Giants football I've ever seen, and those four losers are a big reason for that.
It's not just Graziano in that article who picked the NYG  
The_Boss : 5/14/2019 6:15 pm : link
Kevin Seifert, national NFL writer: New York Giants. Their moves were confounding, from dispatching two of their best young players in OBJ (26 years old) and Collins (25) to reaching for quarterback Daniel Jones. But from a bigger picture, their contradictory vision and an old-school approach suggest this franchise is headed toward an extended down cycle.

The overwhelming majority of national guys, not just at ESPN, think this team is a dumpster fire. Peter King last week had us 28 out of 32 teams. Wait until the preseason stuff comes out during training camp. I'd be shocked if we get picked for anything other than last place.
RE: Just remember all of this...  
Jint Fan in Buc Land : 5/14/2019 6:18 pm : link
In comment 14443426 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
if the Giants have a good season this year.

Remember all of this, and hammer these guys accordingly, and never let them forget it.


5 points from finishing 7-1. I'm not saying this is a 14-2 team but the way the media continues to hammer them is unwarranted and honestly fucking stupid. I read an NFL.com article that said the Cardinals were more likely to make the playoffs. It's absurd.
Graziano  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/14/2019 6:27 pm : link
wrote a very good article a couple years back regarding how the Giants drafting had created the mess they were in and was spot on. This article is off base though.

OBJ needed to go for reasons discussed and I think it is better for Jones when he takes over in the long run.

Vernon was hurt too much and that usually gets worst as one ages. Collins was poor in coverage and not worth signing on past accomplishments. Snacks wanted more money and he provided little pash rush and also had injury and age concerns.

I see a much improved O-line with depth and competition. I am a little concerned with WR but will trust Shurmer's offense to score a lot. Defense is bigger, faster and young with a lot of potential in the secondary.

Regarding Jones being tied to the success of the draft I do not agree. If we get three impact players then it is still a very good draft if Jones is a game manager.
.  
Bill2 : 5/14/2019 6:32 pm : link
losing with young talent that jelled late and heading into a good draft in 2020 and a lot of cap room?

different and more tolerable than the horror show of the last two years

it always was going to take three years to recover from an aging qb and no ol or dl or db unit or lb unit.

We were really really bad.
For his pregame speech on opening day Shurmur should  
Blue Dream : 5/14/2019 6:36 pm : link
Just quote Lou Brown from Major League "The local press thinks we would save everyone a lot of time and trouble if we just went out and shot ourselves"
Lou Brown's pregame speech - ( New Window )
Coming from Graziano,  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/14/2019 6:54 pm : link
that makes me feel a lot better about DG's moves and plan for the future.



Seriously, very , very seriously.
Like I said, we'll wait until we see how Collins plays  
Reese's Pieces : 5/14/2019 6:57 pm : link
and we'll wait until we see how Peppers plays.

Shaun O'Hara was very complimentary about Peppers. Says he lined up in many places in the defense to keep them guessing. Says he can play slot corner.

As for last year's defense, honestly when a team coming off a three win season starts the next season 1-7, do you expect the veterans to play as hard as they would if the game mattered. A lot of fans were rooting for losses at the end of the season so the team would have a top ten draft pick.
RE: It's not just Graziano in that article who picked the NYG  
Sean : 5/14/2019 7:33 pm : link
In comment 14443799 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Kevin Seifert, national NFL writer: New York Giants. Their moves were confounding, from dispatching two of their best young players in OBJ (26 years old) and Collins (25) to reaching for quarterback Daniel Jones. But from a bigger picture, their contradictory vision and an old-school approach suggest this franchise is headed toward an extended down cycle.

The overwhelming majority of national guys, not just at ESPN, think this team is a dumpster fire. Peter King last week had us 28 out of 32 teams. Wait until the preseason stuff comes out during training camp. I'd be shocked if we get picked for anything other than last place.


Why are you so fixated on what the national media says? This team was full of losers & they are fixing it. I finally see a plan here. Most media is drooling at the thought of Mayfield & Beckham, it’s so predictable.
Not drinking the Kool Aid  
Marty866b : 5/14/2019 8:16 pm : link
That I read here. We got rid of some of our best players and have young players,players returning from injury, and rookies to replace them. Until I see improvement on the field, I'd say there is nothing inaccurate with Graziano's article. We drafted a player at #6 who most here, and the majority of the league thought was of poor value. Also, it makes little sense to me to have the #6 player in the draft sitting when this team is in no position to contend for anything. Love to be wrong and time will tell but I am not jumping on the Gettleman bandwagon here until I see better results on the field.

Letting Collins go for the price is a no brainer  
Jay on the Island : 5/14/2019 8:36 pm : link
The Giants will get a 3rd or at worst 4th round comp pick plus they brought in a very good replacement for him. Peppers is a phenomenal athlete that is still developing. Beckham will be the real loss but with an improved OL, a healthy Engram, plus Tate and Shepard it won't have a dramatic impact on the offense.

The one big hole on offense is that deep threat the keeps safeties honest. If Corey Coleman or Darius Slayton contribute as the deep threat then this offense could be very good.

With a new QB on board that is hopefully our franchise QB the Giants' main focus, besides addresses the pass rush, should be to find Jones a #1 WR in the draft. It's very rare for young #1 WR's hit free agency so they will have to focus on the draft for a potential WR.
RE: Not drinking the Kool Aid  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 9:33 pm : link
In comment 14443909 Marty866b said:
Quote:
That I read here. We got rid of some of our best players and have young players,players returning from injury, and rookies to replace them. Until I see improvement on the field, I'd say there is nothing inaccurate with Graziano's article. We drafted a player at #6 who most here, and the majority of the league thought was of poor value. Also, it makes little sense to me to have the #6 player in the draft sitting when this team is in no position to contend for anything. Love to be wrong and time will tell but I am not jumping on the Gettleman bandwagon here until I see better results on the field.


Here’s a friendly reminder of pre-DG
... - ( New Window )
Gotham Giants  
Marty866b : 5/14/2019 10:07 pm : link
yeah,great. That team quit but was also very banged up. Last year we were pretty healthy, had a great running back added and won 5 games. Sorry, not on the Gettleman bandwagon until I see a good football team. We gave up on some very good football players this off season and let's see if the new players are capable of picking up the slack. The jury is out on Gettleman IMO.
They’re less talented than they were a year ago  
TD : 5/14/2019 10:20 pm : link
So in that sense, he has a point.

But they play a puff cake schedule and their line won’t kneecap them like last year.. so I could see them winning a few more games and playing better than they did the first 3/4 of last year.

But does that mean they improved much? I don’t think so.
TD - what?  
mittenedman : 5/14/2019 10:26 pm : link
This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.
RE: Gotham Giants  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 10:26 pm : link
In comment 14444248 Marty866b said:
Quote:
yeah,great. That team quit but was also very banged up. Last year we were pretty healthy, had a great running back added and won 5 games. Sorry, not on the Gettleman bandwagon until I see a good football team. We gave up on some very good football players this off season and let's see if the new players are capable of picking up the slack. The jury is out on Gettleman IMO.


Odell is the only “loss”

Vernon hasn’t had double digit sacks since 2013, was a poor scheme fit, and an injury concern. He was turned into 1 of the best guards in the NFL.

Collins hasn’t been great since 2016, has injury concerns, and is a major liability in coverage on top of being a poor scheme fit. His “loss” will render a 3/4 round pick in compensation ... on top of the fact Jabril Peppers is an upgrade, especially in coverage.

Snacks has been replaced by a younger, more athletic version of him.

What other great players did we “lose”?
Gotham Giants  
Marty866b : 5/14/2019 10:35 pm : link
I don't see how you can say that Pepper is an upgrade over Collins, Lawrence is Snacks, but younger,and we're only missing the best receiver in the history of the franchise? Like I said, time will tell but I am far from being sold that this team is going to be an improvement over last year's. Let's not forget that the bar is really low considering we only won five games and this year's schedule is softer. I've been very disappointed in this team the last 6 of 7 years and my expectations are low. What have we picked in the top 10 in the draft four of the last five years or so? Pathetic!
I think that people (non-football professionals) I.e., media writers  
Bill L : 5/14/2019 10:54 pm : link
Just go by the back of playing cards when evaluating moves and trades and choices altogether.

Maybe I’m still smarting (no pun intended) over the Celtics just getting bounced, but they are a useful paradigm for the Gettleman tenure. The Celts had a team with a boatload of talent but the parts were clearly greater than their sum.

Not saying that there were locker room issues on the Celtics (if there were, they were pretty hidden) but there was no chemistry. Likewise with last year’s and before Giants it was more than just the players ability, it was fit and chemistry all the other stuff that goes into team. Oh yeah, the talent, u like the C’s, was pretty shitty too, but we’re talking about some of their most talented players in this case.

None of the reasons that the players Graziano et al talk about were jettisoned show up on the back of their playing cards. But that’s the entirety of their “research” and their knowledge, so you can’t really blame them for that piece of ignorance.
RE: Saying he misses tackles and he doesn't give effort  
Toth029 : 5/14/2019 10:56 pm : link
In comment 14443684 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
are two completely different things. Saying you don't give effort is like the biggest slap in the face you can say to an athlete and that sure as shit isn't LC.


Why pay someone $13M who has trouble wrapping up and in coverage?
'You can't tell me they're better'...  
Torrag : 5/14/2019 10:56 pm : link
It won't be hard to be better. Just win six games and you've proven this nitwit wrong...as usual.
I love the optimism of BBI sometimes  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 5/14/2019 11:07 pm : link
But the Giants aren't winning the division. We aren't winning 9 games. This is a full on rebuild. 5-11. 6-10 at best.

We can be optimists and also be realists.
Why be a realist...  
Brown_Hornet : 5/14/2019 11:28 pm : link
...?
I mean, what's the point?

BBI bragging rights?

I love the Giants offseason.

I really like the draft.

I'm assuming/expecting the we got the best QB prospect.

I'm going into each week expecting a W.

This isn't unrealistic. It's positively.
Would you eant the team to think differently?
No?
So why do so many of you?
this from a guy who was covering SmartWatches for CNET 2 years ago  
Karl Hungus : 5/15/2019 5:46 am : link
. OK Dan, OK.
RE: TD - what?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/15/2019 6:58 am : link
In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:
Quote:
This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.


A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.
RE: RE: Rushing attack will improve  
JonC : 5/15/2019 7:56 am : link
In comment 14443745 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14443373 JonC said:


Quote:


as will pass protection, but we're down one playmaker at WR, one at Edge, and a lot of young parts to integrate.



you mean the playmaker WR who only played half of the games over the past two seasons, quit at the end of last season, and has shit on this franchise outside of the lines? That playmaker WR?

We will miss his potential... maybe.


He was part of a losing culture, but he was still an impact player. Was he the same as pre-injury? No, I don't believe he was but they still moved him out with no replacement.

Snark not warranted.
RE: RE: TD - what?  
Bill L : 5/15/2019 8:40 am : link
In comment 14444354 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:


Quote:


This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.



A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.


Just focus on the offense for a second.

Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.

The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.
The 1963 Giants  
PaulN : 5/15/2019 9:24 am : link
Played for the NFL championship, this team won four games, how does this remind you of 1964? Holy shit, you would think we were winning championships, news flash, we sucked with Beckham, Collins, and Vernon. How do you build a roster paying those three top dollar coming off 6 wins in 2 seasons? Having them as lead dogs failed. I guess it is all Eli's fault.
I think you are going to be really disapointed  
ron mexico : 5/15/2019 9:33 am : link
if this is your expectation

Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season.
RE: RE: TD - what?  
mittenedman : 5/15/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14444354 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:


Quote:


This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.



A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.


There are no guarantees in life bud. But as usual you complete miss the point. Tate, Remmers, Zeitler, Bethea, Peppers & Golden have never played a game? Try a little harder to be a contrarian.
RE: RE: RE: TD - what?  
mikeinbloomfield : 5/15/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14444403 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14444354 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:


Quote:


This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.



A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.



Just focus on the offense for a second.

Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.

The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.



This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'


The fact is that there's no longer any receiving threat that scares defenses on this team anymore, except maybe Engram, who can't block so when he's in teams can pretty much predict a passing play. Get ready for Barkley to dive into 8 or 9 man fronts 20 times a game and Shepard or Tate to catch 5 yard crossing patterns on 3rd and 8.

And that's before we talk about the defense, who doesn't have a pass rusher that scares anyone. Balance!

But whatever! The culture will be great! They're not rebuilding! Eli can still play!

Maybe Gettleman is right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe it was correct to take a RB at 2 instead of trade down with a roster full of holes. Maybe you can trade away all your best players for picks but somehow say you can still win, which means keeping your 38 year old QB who has been nothing except average for the last three years. Maybe you should pick a QB with the 6 pick who has a 59.9% percent completion rate in college.
mikebloomfield  
mittenedman : 5/15/2019 9:49 am : link
They don't "scare" anyone in those areas but particularly on D, they have a collection of young, hungry & talented athletes that could combine into a group that plays good team ball.

This isn't the 2015 Giants D which was a joke on paper. There is speed and talent 15, 16 deep on D. They could be like that DAL D everyone ragged on that ended up being very good due to overall team speed and coaching.

And who do the Pats have that scares you deep? It's not as critical as you think.
RE: mikebloomfield  
mikeinbloomfield : 5/15/2019 9:54 am : link
In comment 14444515 mittenedman said:
Quote:
They don't "scare" anyone in those areas but particularly on D, they have a collection of young, hungry & talented athletes that could combine into a group that plays good team ball.

This isn't the 2015 Giants D which was a joke on paper. There is speed and talent 15, 16 deep on D. They could be like that DAL D everyone ragged on that ended up being very good due to overall team speed and coaching.

And who do the Pats have that scares you deep? It's not as critical as you think.


They have Tom Brady, for one thing. And nothing you said about the defense is objective. Could they be good? Sure! I might win 50K on this scratch off too.

The fact is that our most accomplished pass rusher had four sacks last year and is in the second year of a comeback from major knee surgery. He's on a one-year deal, which should tell you something.

Other than that, I don't know how you measure hungriness from any objective standard. I am glad they're younger. I don't know if that makes them good yet.
In the hilarity..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/15/2019 9:59 am : link
you might want to fact check:

Quote:
This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'


They lost all 4 games?? Nope.
Geez mike  
mittenedman : 5/15/2019 10:01 am : link
You're just a glass half empty kind of guy. Fair enough.
RE: RE: RE: TD - what?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/15/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14444403 Bill L said:
Quote:
In comment 14444354 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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In comment 14444263 mittenedman said:


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This team has less talent than last year?

Snacks, OBJ, Vernon, BW Webb, Curtis Riley, Collins gone.

Daniel Jones, Tate, Zeitler, Remmers, DeMarcus Lawrence, Golden, Beal, Love, Baker, Ballentine, Bethea & Peppers in.

+

A very young roster being a year older.

And the team is less talented than a year ago? C'mon now. This team is much improved on paper. Significantly.



A bunch of guys that never played a game is never a guarantee upgrade to BBI except when it's the Giants.



Just focus on the offense for a second.

Without Beckham last year, this was a 30+ points per game offense. That's the baseline going into this season. They made one major change and that was to exchange a decent, but journeyman, guard for a pro-bowl guard. If you want, you can also say they exchanged a camp walk-on WR (pick one) for an NFL-experienced WR with a history of production.

The defense...I don't really know, you could be right. But a major weakness was the secondary and most of the people we replaced there were bottom-tier walk-on guys and we replaced them with picks who had proven college-level production and decent to high draft rankings. I think at worst it would be a wash, which means still not good, but is more likely than not to be better. I would think that overall (run stoppage plus coverage, Peppers vs Collins is going to be a wash but Bethea improves us at the other spot. The place where weakness might show up is the DL. There the comparison should be Vernon v Golden. And, you can't say that Golden has never played a game. You can really only say that about Lawrence v Snacks. We will have to wait and see there.


I don't know what to make of the offense. It should be more consistent as long as the OL is healthy, but the late season numbers are fudged by games against horrid defenses like tampa, a redskins team that visibly quit on the field, and a cowboys team that was resting starters. But those things are fine for debate.

It's hard not to like the improvements on defense, but I think the improvements they made lay the foundation for better play in a year or two. With a player like Bethea, he's 35-36 years old. You just hope this isn't the year the clock strikes 12 on his ability to play.

To me they're 3/4s of the way toward saying they finished a rebuild. Josh Allen would have been that franchise guy to build the defense around, I think.
RE: In the hilarity..  
mikeinbloomfield : 5/15/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14444544 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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you might want to fact check:



Quote:


This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'



They lost all 4 games?? Nope.



Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.
RE: Geez mike  
mikeinbloomfield : 5/15/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14444545 mittenedman said:
Quote:
You're just a glass half empty kind of guy. Fair enough.


I'm a "I want the Giants to be smarter" type guy. I am hoping they do well. I don't see how.
Oh so you’re a  
mittenedman : 5/15/2019 11:28 am : link
“Im smarter than the Giants” guy, not a pessimist. Got it.
RE: RE: In the hilarity..  
Bill L : 5/15/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14444565 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 14444544 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you might want to fact check:



Quote:


This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'



They lost all 4 games?? Nope.




Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.


Your metric is W-L in an argument bashing the trading of Beckham?
what a sad commentary  
Paulie Walnuts : 5/15/2019 12:49 pm : link
the only player by a long way that we will miss is Odell

the rest were replaceable pieces

BTW DG looks like a genius now for trading JPP
Dan Graziano...  
Nolan64 : 5/15/2019 3:12 pm : link
hates on the Giants for no good reason excwpt to generate clicks from casual fans who get their collective panties in a bunch over the spew coming from his mouth.
What his agenda is, I don't know. But it doesn't seem to be reporting objectively on the moves Dave Gettleman has made. This is an attack that has nothing to do with giving an honest critique.
RE: Not drinking the Kool Aid  
Nolan64 : 5/15/2019 3:29 pm : link
In comment 14443909 Marty866b said:
Quote:
That I read here. We got rid of some of our best players and have young players,players returning from injury, and rookies to replace them. Until I see improvement on the field, I'd say there is nothing inaccurate with Graziano's article. We drafted a player at #6 who most here, and the majority of the league thought was of poor value. Also, it makes little sense to me to have the #6 player in the draft sitting when this team is in no position to contend for anything. Love to be wrong and time will tell but I am not jumping on the Gettleman bandwagon here until I see better results on the field.
Well at the end of last season, with the Titans shutout the exception, without OBJs talent, the offense scored an average around 28 points against 2 playoff teams both with top 10 defenses. With a worst OL at that. If we had better DB coverage we def beat Dallas. DG saw that and went and drafted DBs rated high by PFF so...
RE: RE: In the hilarity..  
BSIMatt : 5/15/2019 4:22 pm : link
In comment 14444565 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 14444544 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


you might want to fact check:



Quote:


This is hilarious. Beckham was missing for four games. They scored 40 against a Redskins team starting Mark Sanchez, 0 against the Titans, 27 against a less-than-impressive Colts defense, and 35 against the Cowboys, who rested players. And they lost all four games! That's the 'baseline.'



They lost all 4 games?? Nope.




Oh that's right, they beat the Redskins. That makes it ok to trade Beckham, and the offense is going to be great without him. Barkley ran wild against a team that had already given up, but the leading receiver was Engram with 77 yards. That will win a lot of games.



Couple things, the Colts were a top 10 defense in multiple categories, top 10 scoring,points, top 6 rush defense, top 6 passing TDS allowed.

Leading receiver 77 yards won't win you a lot of games?

Neither will having a horrendous roster with a superstar WR putting up 100 yard games. Beckham put up 100 yards receiving in 5 games last year and the Giants went 1-4 in those games. They scored above 20 points just twice in those 5 games.
I don't think anyone would suggest losing a player of Beckham's caliber is a good thing. However, this same player was on the teams that picked top 10, top 6, top 2 in the draft. The Giants had a poor roster, and in turn for Beckham they've added Dexter Lawrence, Jabrill Peppers, Oshane Ximines, and Julian Love(remember the OBJ trade got us our 4th rounder back). We had a bad roster, and we got 4 good young players in return for 1 great player.
RE: Outside of BBI  
giantstock : 5/15/2019 5:26 pm : link
In comment 14443380 UberAlias said:
Quote:
Nearly everyone I’ve spoken with shares his perspective. Let’s face it, the team made a lot of controversial moves. Only time will tell if they were right.


+1.

I haven;t gone to other sites but listening to the tv, listening to the radio and friends -who are either Giants fans or not -- say "WTF" are they doing?

IMO it's all as another poster said-- it's all dependent onJones. WIth another draft next year and lots of cap space 2020 is the season to analyze.
RE: keep talking shit Graziano  
BigBlueJuice : 5/15/2019 6:39 pm : link

I want to say if there was a network i could watch sports on that was not by name ESPN id do it in a second. First off, ESPN "reporters" are garbage. Their articles are trash with little to zero fact finding. If I wanted an opinion id ask fans. Horrible reporting 24/7. Trash writers. I am still befounded that they have been going after U of A basketball program with zero evidence and still acting as if new evidence has been found. If you want to slander a team there are plenty of squads cough cough duke, kansas, kentucky that all scout same players and do ill advised things behind scene. U of A not one of them. But I digress, to say that any article written by a writer of this trash network most likely speaking from their asses. No facts, nothing. Just I heard or I know someone from the inside said.. its all circumstantial.



In comment 14443332 Platos said:
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guys almost never right lol
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