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Let's Worry About Wide Receivers Now.

Klaatu : 5/14/2019 1:41 pm
I'm all worried out over the offensive line. I need something new to worry about, so why not WR?

OBJ is gone. He's gone and there's nothing we could do about it (hat tip, Johnny5). The Giants extended Sterling Shepard and signed Golden Tate, but neither of them fit the profile of a "#1 WR," although I think they can both be productive. We've got a couple of retreads with Coleman and Latimer, but, honestly I don't have much faith in either of them, except on special teams.

The Giants drafted Darius Slayton in the 5th Round this year (#171 overall), which is a little later than I thought they might tap a WR. Here's what Sy'56 had to say about him:

Quote:
5: Darius Slayton – Auburn – 6’1/190

Grade: 79

Summary: Fourth year junior entry. Slayton arrived at Auburn as an accomplished high school track athlete and enters the NFL with a very high ceiling. His speed and burst are functional and usable on the field, he is much more than a track athlete. He consistently averaged near-20 yards per catch over his career and displayed dominant stretches against SEC cornerbacks.. He is a deep threat who will make a defense account for him at all times. While there are limitations to his game underneath and at the point of attack, this kind of deep threat and ability to extend plays after the catch is worth the risk. Boom or bust.

*I am taking a chance on Slayton, I simply have too many plus game notes over the past two seasons to ignore it. The Auburn offense is difficult to scout as it could create numerous false opportunities but at the same time it may prevent a guy like Slayton from really showing everything he can do. I love the way he moves and his worst case may be a Ted Ginn caliber vertical threat.

NFL Comparison: Ted Ginn / NO


Pretty good grade from Sy. He's certainly got the speed, but his hands are suspect, which has to be a cause for concern.

After that there isn't much. The one guy that intrigues me, though, is Reggie White, Jr. You always worry about the level of competition with the small-school guys, but this is what Lance Zierlein at NFL.com said about him:

Quote:
Appealing small-school wideout with the size and athleticism that helps him stand-out when the tape is rolling. He's a springy leaper with a wide catch radius who snares balls outside his frame or goes up and over cornerbacks to bring it in. His routes are upright and dull and won't create much NFL separation, but his outstanding testing numbers show he has the ability to play faster and quicker for teams willing to stash and coach him. White is a developmental prospect with a plus ceiling if the coaching clicks with him.


If he shows anything positive this summer, would you risk stashing him on the Practice Squad, or try and find a place for him on the final 53?

So, what are your thoughts about our WR corps? Who sticks? Who goes? How many do you think the Giants will keep? And are you as worried about this group as I am?
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I love the "Buh-but the Pats do it!" arguments  
Greg from LI : 5/14/2019 2:55 pm : link
When Bill Belichick is running the Giants instead of the Keystone Kops, that argument might mean something.
RE: It would be a great bonus  
flycatcher : 5/14/2019 2:58 pm : link
In comment 14443480 Beer Man said:
Quote:
if the lights would go on in Coleman and/or Latimer and those two actually figured it out and could put their physical talents to good use.

It’ll be interesting to see how Coleman looks now that he’s in his second year of this offense. His KO returns showed that his straight line speed is as good as advertised.
RE: It's more than just pass catchers  
pjcas18 : 5/14/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14443485 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
We need a true deep threat. Teams stack the box to stuff Barkley, and how do we make them pay? That's the problem


other teams did that to the Giants with Beckham, the OL is as much a part of that as a deep threat. You don't have time for a deep threat to make a difference when you can't pass block.

Hopefully the OL additions create the necessary gap and screens become a weapon, slants are viable, and even short seam passes to Engram, and then if teams can't put 8 in the box it opens things up.

We might find though without being able to extend plays, Eli limits the peak the offense can achieve.

RE: RE: this is where Barkley really helps  
Giantsfan79 : 5/14/2019 3:07 pm : link
In comment 14443409 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14443399 Giantsfan79 said:


Quote:


if teams put an 8th man in the box to stop the run, it makes it easier to pass. Like others have said it's not crazy to think Tate can put up comparable numbers to OBJ.



Yes, it's crazy to think anything but his receptions total will be comparable to Beckham.


# of 1st down receptions may be similar or even favor Tate. I'll concede big plays and TDs ought to favor OBJ - if he can stay healthy - but someone who can make a high number of catches and create first downs helps this offense.
Ok fine...  
Dnew15 : 5/14/2019 3:07 pm : link
we'll take out the Pats - b/c I do agree that comparing anyone to the Pats is a little unfair.
But I would tell you that there are plenty of teams that have a track record of proven success in recent years that don't have a proven, #1 star WR.
Since the last NYG Super Bowl win - most of those teams DON'T have a clear cut #1, All-Pro caliber WR...Philly, Carolina, Seattle, Baltimore, SF all definitely didn't. I think you could also argue that Denver and the LA Rams are close.
RE: I love the  
gidiefor : Mod : 5/14/2019 3:10 pm : link
In comment 14443499 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
When Bill Belichick is running the Giants instead of the Keystone Kops, that argument might mean something.


you are such a love bunny -- it's just an example.

If you want more examples:

see the Minnesota VIkings - where they feature a 5th rounder and UDFA as their #1 &2 WRs

Golden Tate was the Seahawks #1 Receiver when they won the Super Bowl

Anquon Boldin was the #1 WR of the Ravens the last time they won the Super Bowl and not much behind him

The Steelers won the Super Bowl with Hines Ward as their #1 WR





Graziano just told me I need to worry  
George from PA : 5/14/2019 3:15 pm : link
We lost OBJ!

But didnt we lose him in game 12 of 2018 season, and team scored more points during his absence?

I am not a hugh fan of Golden Tate but he is a great blocking WR....should help Barkley long break aways.
How many games did they win  
RollBlue : 5/14/2019 3:50 pm : link
after OBJ went out? The last 2 games of the season they had the ball with over a minute to play, some TOs and only needed a FG to win. Anyone think if OBJ was on the field they may have won both of those games? He's going to be missed, but QB play needs to be better going forward, I don;t care who the WRs are. OBJ wasn't the reason the team has been losing outside of 2016.
RE: Graziano just told me I need to worry  
Giantz_comeback : 5/14/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14443534 George from PA said:
Quote:
We lost OBJ!

But didnt we lose him in game 12 of 2018 season, and team scored more points during his absence?

I am not a hugh fan of Golden Tate but he is a great blocking WR....should help Barkley long break aways.


Yup some great offensive games without OBJ. Now we have a better OL and have added Tate. Think we will be more than fine offensively.
Tate and Shepard are good WR's,  
Section331 : 5/14/2019 4:10 pm : link
but neither is going to take the top off of any defense. They need one of the young wides to step up, likely Coleman, Latimer and/or Slayton.
I actually heard from a friend of Jermaine Kearse  
Damon : 5/14/2019 4:12 pm : link
That he was talking to the Giants.
RE: RE: I think  
Jon in NYC : 5/14/2019 4:21 pm : link
In comment 14443391 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14443375 Jon in NYC said:


Quote:


Golden Tate is going wildly underrated. He's closer to OBJ than he is to being just a JAG.



Yeah, no. Golden Tate has 38 TD receptions in 137 games. Beckham has 44 in 59 games. Odell also averages 14 YPC for his career. Tate hasn't cracked 12 YPC since 2014.

He's a very good possession receiver (or, at least, he has been - turning 31 this year so the decline could come at any time), but that's it. Don't expect him to break many big plays.


Yeah, yeah. He's closer to Odell than a league average wide receiver.
OBJ  
PaulN : 5/14/2019 4:43 pm : link
Wasn't the reason we lost, but at 20 mil he should have been the reason we were winning, but he wasn't, then the one time we got to playoffs, he was one of the reasons we lost, because he sucked, while Eli played very good. Good ridence, to Mr. me first the team last.
they have enough at WR to run a solid offense  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2019 4:50 pm : link
in a lot of ways it appears Shurmur has recreated a similar group to his 2017 Vikings. QB is better, RB is better as long as Barkley is healthy, and WR/OL groups are both comparable.

Yes they lost a huge gamebreaker and unique talent in OBJ. But his rare talents just never translated to this offense being able to sustain success. That's not his fault, that's mostly the organization's fault, but it doesn't change the reality. His talent loss was great and we'll see fewer highlight reel plays, but it's uncertain how much that will impact overall offensive production.

Coleman, Engram, and Latimer are all various levels of interesting as well - especially the first 2. Engram's YPC last year was almost 13 and had the 4th most YAC yards of all TE's despite missing time. For his career Coleman's YPC is about the same, which is certainly less impressive as a WR but his return ability has clearly evidenced some explosiveness. Both are just 24 years old and were first round draft picks for a reason - they are top notch athletes for their position. They each have an opportunity to step up in a bigger role.

Latimer had the highest YPC (17) on the team last year in very limited time and has the highest career YPC on the team at almost 14. He's also got good size and ST ability. He's hung around the league for a couple extra years compared to the other 2 so it's fair to wonder if he will ever break out though.
RE: they have enough at WR to run a solid offense  
pjcas18 : 5/14/2019 4:58 pm : link
In comment 14443713 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
in a lot of ways it appears Shurmur has recreated a similar group to his 2017 Vikings. QB is better, RB is better as long as Barkley is healthy, and WR/OL groups are both comparable.

Yes they lost a huge gamebreaker and unique talent in OBJ. But his rare talents just never translated to this offense being able to sustain success. That's not his fault, that's mostly the organization's fault, but it doesn't change the reality. His talent loss was great and we'll see fewer highlight reel plays, but it's uncertain how much that will impact overall offensive production.

Coleman, Engram, and Latimer are all various levels of interesting as well - especially the first 2. Engram's YPC last year was almost 13 and had the 4th most YAC yards of all TE's despite missing time. For his career Coleman's YPC is about the same, which is certainly less impressive as a WR but his return ability has clearly evidenced some explosiveness. Both are just 24 years old and were first round draft picks for a reason - they are top notch athletes for their position. They each have an opportunity to step up in a bigger role.

Latimer had the highest YPC (17) on the team last year in very limited time and has the highest career YPC on the team at almost 14. He's also got good size and ST ability. He's hung around the league for a couple extra years compared to the other 2 so it's fair to wonder if he will ever break out though.


You think the Giants WR's (Tate and Shepard at least) are comparable to Diggs and Thielen?

Cook obviously missed most of 2017, but i think Barkley > McKinnon and Murray, though McKinnon a really good receiver.

Rudolph and Engram may be a wash receiving the ball, though most probably take Rudolph as a more complete TE.

But I'm not sure Tate and Shepard are close to Diggs and Thielen
RE: It's more than just pass catchers  
JoeMoney19 : 5/14/2019 5:00 pm : link
In comment 14443485 Tim in VA said:
Quote:
We need a true deep threat. Teams stack the box to stuff Barkley, and how do we make them pay? That's the problem

Coleman and Slayton have the attributes, if they can become more consistent pass catchers. I like Coleman's chances of taking the top off a few times this year after having a year to get the offense under his belt, and an obvious draft pick to compete with him.
Diggs and Thielen  
JoeMoney19 : 5/14/2019 5:05 pm : link
are either the or one of the best tandems in the whole league. We don't have one receiver that's as good as either of them, let alone a duo that competes with them.
Don't worry that the horse is blind, just load the wagon.  
Marty in Albany : 5/14/2019 5:50 pm : link
Even if we had a deep threat WR, the QB still wouldn't get enough time to throw to him. We will have even less time than we had last season because our Oline is being shifted from pass blockers to run blockers.

The good news is that if we have a more dangerous running game, the play action pass becomes much more effective. The play-action pass has always been the Giants' and Eli's bread and butter.

If we tire the opponent out in the first three quarters, with a power running game, then both running and passing will be much easier in the fourth quarter. I think this is a more likely result than 1. our getting a Calvin Johnson clone, and 2. our Oline miraculously holding off rushers while our QB waits for him to get 40 yards down field.
If Barkley stays healthy all year, he's gonna snag  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/14/2019 6:42 pm : link
1,000 yards receiving. You heard it here first. Our OL as now constructed isn't only better than it was, it's more suited skill wise to Shurmur's offense.

I'm beginning to understand we seem to have a GM and head coach on the same page. It's really quite a change from Reese and TC, or Reese and McAdoo really.
Klaatu  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/14/2019 6:42 pm : link
I was very worried like you. Then I started thinking Shurmer was hired for his ability to produce good offenses. So if he can't then

I think he is going to go heavy run and the Giants are going to be about 55/45 pass run split percentage.

Tate was targeted for a reason by the Giants and hopefully Engram advances. Maybe one of the draftees provides a deep threat.

I would not be surprised to see a fee wrinkles added to the offense this year. Using Barkley in WR sets more. I hope more two TE sets which is my favorite.

The improved OL will be the biggest asset to the passing game imo. Eli will excel with reading the coverage and spreading the ball.
Next year's draft class, last I read about it,  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/14/2019 6:47 pm : link
is loaded with WRs and OLTs.
RE: Don't worry that the horse is blind, just load the wagon.  
Klaatu : 5/14/2019 7:31 pm : link
In comment 14443776 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
Even if we had a deep threat WR, the QB still wouldn't get enough time to throw to him. We will have even less time than we had last season because our Oline is being shifted from pass blockers to run blockers.

The good news is that if we have a more dangerous running game, the play action pass becomes much more effective. The play-action pass has always been the Giants' and Eli's bread and butter.

If we tire the opponent out in the first three quarters, with a power running game, then both running and passing will be much easier in the fourth quarter. I think this is a more likely result than 1. our getting a Calvin Johnson clone, and 2. our Oline miraculously holding off rushers while our QB waits for him to get 40 yards down field.


Marty, Kevin Zeitler is known much more for his pass-blocking than his run-blocking, and Mike Remmers graded out slightly higher as a pass-blocker than a run-blocker according to PFF (take that for what it's worth).
I’m not worrying one bit  
5BowlsSoon : 5/14/2019 7:42 pm : link
Tate
Shepherd
Coleman
Slayton
Lattimore
Fowler
And of course the great EE

Plenty of targets not named Barkley.....

I’m much more concerned about whether we can finally be good at covering the tight end.
YES. I know Eli is no and has never be Tom Brady  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/14/2019 7:45 pm : link
But maybe the Giants are emulating the Pats in a good way.

Engram was supposedly a pretty good route runner. He’s been hurt but if can realize his potential and add him to Tate and Sheppard I don’t think Receiver is that thin. There aren’t many guys as talented as OBJ in the NFL but I’ve felt for a while that the rule changes have made WR more like RB than people want to admit. Year after year NE finds guy who help then win without having that stud.

Never mind Barkley who has to be considered part of the receiver group.
Worst group of wideouts in the league  
HomerJones45 : 5/14/2019 7:49 pm : link
Small, slow and suck about sums it up. No one knows which Engram will show up. Start saying novenas for Barkley’s health. He goes down and this is the worst offense in the league.

Comparable to the Vikings?? Thelien, Diggs and Beasley? Yeah, no they aren’t close to comparable.
...  
christian : 5/14/2019 7:57 pm : link
Golden Tate led the league in drops and is on the wrong side of 30. He's not a lead dog.

I've loved Gettleman's offseason, but I expect Tate to be a big miss.

There's nothing about him that justifies 22M over 2 years.

I suspect he quickly takes the mantle of mentor, locker room, pro, guy -- the euphemism for sucks.
RE: ...  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14443894 christian said:
Quote:
Golden Tate led the league in drops and is on the wrong side of 30. He's not a lead dog.

I've loved Gettleman's offseason, but I expect Tate to be a big miss.

There's nothing about him that justifies 22M over 2 years.

I suspect he quickly takes the mantle of mentor, locker room, pro, guy -- the euphemism for sucks.


He’s also the most elusive WR in the league and was on pace for another 1000 yard season before a mid season trade ...

Tate = good - ( New Window )
...  
christian : 5/14/2019 8:23 pm : link
Tate was like 89th in the league in yards per reception. He's been under 11 yards a catch in back-to-back years. He's not the guy he was when he first went to Detroit.
RE: ...  
GothamGiants : 5/14/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14443922 christian said:
Quote:
Tate was like 89th in the league in yards per reception. He's been under 11 yards a catch in back-to-back years. He's not the guy he was when he first went to Detroit.


His game has always been about run-after-the-catch

He was top 10 among WRs in YAC - in 2018


RE: Worst group of wideouts in the league  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/14/2019 9:37 pm : link
In comment 14443884 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Small, slow and suck about sums it up. No one knows which Engram will show up. Start saying novenas for Barkley’s health. He goes down and this is the worst offense in the league.

Comparable to the Vikings?? Thelien, Diggs and Beasley? Yeah, no they aren’t close to comparable.


You can say that about half of the Super Bowl Pats teams.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 5/14/2019 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14444011 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14443922 christian said:


Quote:


Tate was like 89th in the league in yards per reception. He's been under 11 yards a catch in back-to-back years. He's not the guy he was when he first went to Detroit.



His game has always been about run-after-the-catch

He was top 10 among WRs in YAC - in 2018



He can lead the league in YAC, but if he's getting less than 11 yards a clip, he's basically competing with Barkley for dump offs. That's no way to construct an offensive.

The Giants have plenty to prove in the vertical game.
RE: RE: they have enough at WR to run a solid offense  
Eric on Li : 5/14/2019 10:34 pm : link
In comment 14443720 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
In comment 14443713 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


in a lot of ways it appears Shurmur has recreated a similar group to his 2017 Vikings. QB is better, RB is better as long as Barkley is healthy, and WR/OL groups are both comparable.

Yes they lost a huge gamebreaker and unique talent in OBJ. But his rare talents just never translated to this offense being able to sustain success. That's not his fault, that's mostly the organization's fault, but it doesn't change the reality. His talent loss was great and we'll see fewer highlight reel plays, but it's uncertain how much that will impact overall offensive production.

Coleman, Engram, and Latimer are all various levels of interesting as well - especially the first 2. Engram's YPC last year was almost 13 and had the 4th most YAC yards of all TE's despite missing time. For his career Coleman's YPC is about the same, which is certainly less impressive as a WR but his return ability has clearly evidenced some explosiveness. Both are just 24 years old and were first round draft picks for a reason - they are top notch athletes for their position. They each have an opportunity to step up in a bigger role.

Latimer had the highest YPC (17) on the team last year in very limited time and has the highest career YPC on the team at almost 14. He's also got good size and ST ability. He's hung around the league for a couple extra years compared to the other 2 so it's fair to wonder if he will ever break out though.



You think the Giants WR's (Tate and Shepard at least) are comparable to Diggs and Thielen?

Cook obviously missed most of 2017, but i think Barkley > McKinnon and Murray, though McKinnon a really good receiver.

Rudolph and Engram may be a wash receiving the ball, though most probably take Rudolph as a more complete TE.

But I'm not sure Tate and Shepard are close to Diggs and Thielen


Today we'd obviously take the Minny duo today over Tate/Shep because it's 2 guys in their respective primes vs. 1 prime/1 perhaps end of prime. But if Tate has a solid year in the aggregate I think they should end up statistically comparable to the Minny duo in 2017 (combined ~150 receptions, 2000 yards, 12 tds). Our duo wasn't far off that last year even with Tate's production falling off post-trade and Shepard riding backseat to OBJ. All 4 players are stylistically comparable in their ability to flex either outside or in the slot.

Rudolph had 57 recepts for 550 yards in 2017 - which Engram outgained last year in 5 less games. Certainly not as complete of a player, but in the receiving department overall I think the 2017 Vikings comparable isn't far off (unless Tate goes over the cliff).
This is a WCO  
Joey in VA : 5/14/2019 11:30 pm : link
It's not predicated on a deep threat or a #1 WR, the idea is to spread the ball, widen the field and create lanes with width. Slants, Digs and combination routes will rule the day, routes that don't require a WR who attracts doubles or changes coverages. The concept is to spread the ball out, to WRs, RBs and TEs all over the field and that's completely possible with this group. Tate and Shepard are interchangeable WRs, both excellent blockers and route runners and there is a bevy of guys who stepped up late last year. Look at what the offense did without Odell. Yes they skunked in Tennessee, but 40 in Washington the first game without the golden god and slugfests with Indy and Dallas that we scored 27 and 35 points.

To that offense, without Odell, we add Golden Tate, Kevin Zeitler and Mike Remmers. And to those defenses we lose Olivier Vernon but we add Markus Golden, Dexter Lawrence, Oshane Ximines, DeAndre Baker, Antoine Bethea, Jabrill Peppers, and Julian Love. This team is deeper, younger, faster and deeper. We're not there yet, but we're far far closer than we were than when we fired McAdoo and Reese. The arrow is pointing up, like it or not.
Last year to my eye Shurmur was the best playcaller/schemer  
Eric on Li : 5/15/2019 12:06 am : link
we've had in a very long time. Obviously for a few years Gillbride was very good too, but Shurmur seemed much more creative dictating matchup problems and getting guys wide open with designs. What he did in 2017 with Keenum as his QB is still somewhat mind boggling to me. And that was his first full year as OC after Turner resigned. That was also Thielen's 4Y breakout year where he went from very Shepard-esque player to catching 91 balls for 1300 yards. Diggs had 64 rec / 850 yards.

I'm not sure if Tate can sustain the pace he was on pre-trade last year or if Shepard is capable of that big of a breakout, though I do expect him to increase his production at least modestly with more targets. But I do suspect Shurmur is trying to build an offense in the mold of what won him assistant of the year in 2017.
WR’s  
Dragon : 5/15/2019 1:58 am : link
I would have to say at present we don’t have one we have two small slot type guys who will be asked to perform like WR’s. Second problem our QB is not noted for accuracy or getting the ball to smaller receivers in tight windows. You loose one of the top WR’s in the game from an offense that consistently struggled to gain a true identity.

Barkley is going to be the main focus for any defense weekly can the new guy Tate, Engram at TE, Shepard really become something close to what OBJ brought to the field very big question? Everyone one else are today JAG on this roster will any of them take a major step forward that’s hard to say yes. The problem is that we’re being told it’s not a rebuild but if this is not a rebuild I would really hate to see one. This is a team without direction now and in the future because they believe they are better than the record shows but lost most of the players to say we have skilled players.
Last two season s OBJ  
joeinpa : 5/15/2019 5:16 am : link
Won t be that difficult to replace.
RE: WR’s  
Eric on Li : 5/15/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14444329 Dragon said:
Quote:
I would have to say at present we don’t have one we have two small slot type guys who will be asked to perform like WR’s. Second problem our QB is not noted for accuracy or getting the ball to smaller receivers in tight windows. You loose one of the top WR’s in the game from an offense that consistently struggled to gain a true identity.

Case Keenum 2017 = 67%, 7.4 yards per completition, 22 td, 7 int
Eli Manning 2018 = 66%, 7.5 yards per completition, 21 td, 11 int

Quote:
Barkley is going to be the main focus for any defense weekly can the new guy Tate, Engram at TE, Shepard really become something close to what OBJ brought to the field very big question? Everyone one else are today JAG on this roster will any of them take a major step forward that’s hard to say yes. The problem is that we’re being told it’s not a rebuild but if this is not a rebuild I would really hate to see one. This is a team without direction now and in the future because they believe they are better than the record shows but lost most of the players to say we have skilled players.

The question isn't what OBJ brought to the field, it's can they do what's asked of them in Shurmur's offense? Shurmur is likely running a lot of what he ran extremely successfully in 2017, that is what got him the job in the first place. The moves they've made this offseason - including signing his old RT Remmers, adding a quality RG, and a 2nd WR flexible to play both slot and outside - indicate that's his plan for this upcoming year. Will it work? No idea. But it doesn't seem illogical. From a talent standpoint it seems possible. That unit ended up ranked 10th in the NFL, 7th in rush yards and 11th in passing yards. For reference, last year we were also 11th in passing yards and 24th in rush yards, 17th overall.

The 2017 vikings also had the #1 defense in the NFL, which is obviously a totally separate story.
Starters ok IF  
giantsFC : 5/15/2019 10:35 am : link
Golden Tate doesn’t pull a Brandon Marshall
RE: This is a WCO  
GothamGiants : 5/15/2019 10:57 am : link
In comment 14444311 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
It's not predicated on a deep threat or a #1 WR, the idea is to spread the ball, widen the field and create lanes with width. Slants, Digs and combination routes will rule the day, routes that don't require a WR who attracts doubles or changes coverages. The concept is to spread the ball out, to WRs, RBs and TEs all over the field and that's completely possible with this group. Tate and Shepard are interchangeable WRs, both excellent blockers and route runners and there is a bevy of guys who stepped up late last year. Look at what the offense did without Odell. Yes they skunked in Tennessee, but 40 in Washington the first game without the golden god and slugfests with Indy and Dallas that we scored 27 and 35 points.

To that offense, without Odell, we add Golden Tate, Kevin Zeitler and Mike Remmers. And to those defenses we lose Olivier Vernon but we add Markus Golden, Dexter Lawrence, Oshane Ximines, DeAndre Baker, Antoine Bethea, Jabrill Peppers, and Julian Love. This team is deeper, younger, faster and deeper. We're not there yet, but we're far far closer than we were than when we fired McAdoo and Reese. The arrow is pointing up, like it or not.


If there was a standing ovation button, I’d click it

Small addition: Golden Tate, and his skillset, is perfect for Shurmur’s offense ... people assume he’s in decline because he got traded mid season (on pace for 1000+ yards) and didn’t light it up in a new offense behind 3 other options in the pass game.

He’s still a very good WR, although I expect WR to be in 1st/2nd round consideration next year. Plug a hole or 2 in free agency with some “splash” signings and then draft offense heavy next year.

Time to build the young core around Daniel Jones. Tate is an excellent placeholder for now (he’ll be cut in 2 years)
how cute, Joey's getting a dupe fan club  
Greg from LI : 5/15/2019 10:59 am : link
.
RE: how cute, Joey's getting a dupe fan club  
GothamGiants : 5/15/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14444685 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
.


It is amazing how obsessed you are with me. The internet name calling, the trolling, the fact that for some reason you are convinced I’m a previous poster you clearly disliked despite the fact I’ve never had an account on here before - just been reading the site for a long time and know the “lingo” ... you’re a treasure.

Come up with 5 better G tandems better than the Giants yet, with objective measurable supporting evidence? Looking forward to it.

Seems like Hernandez/Zeitler would’ve graded as well/better than all of the examples you provided ... keep trying though. Or just name call more behind your computer - like well-adjusted adults do. Have a great day! Go Giants!
By all means, keep regurgitating PFF's garbage  
Greg from LI : 5/15/2019 11:07 am : link
And lots of people who have never posted suddenly start posting constantly. Happens all the time.
RE: By all means, keep regurgitating PFF's garbage  
GothamGiants : 5/15/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14444698 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
And lots of people who have never posted suddenly start posting constantly. Happens all the time.


You can have a well thought out counterpoint if you’d like, because the objective measurable data doesn’t support your claims that the Giants G tandem isn’t 1 of the best in the league with the capability of being the best in the league. It already is 1 of the best, and if Hernandez improves, it will be the best G tandem

PFF’s garbage > “Zeitler’s never been all pro and Zach Martin is so good that whoever the Cowboys start at the other guard will be better ... and then here’s the Saints tandem who isn’t as good [it’s their tackles that are excellent] and the Browns have an unknown but they traded Zeitler so there’s are automatically better and ... dupe. Yeah, dupe!”

Keep it coming. I’ll continue to make claims and support my opinions with measurable data and/or direct observation. You continue to ... do whatever it is you do.

Zeitler and Hernandez are1 of the best G tandems in the NFL - Have a lovely day!
RE: This is a WCO  
Now Mike in MD : 5/15/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14444311 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
It's not predicated on a deep threat or a #1 WR, the idea is to spread the ball, widen the field and create lanes with width. Slants, Digs and combination routes will rule the day, routes that don't require a WR who attracts doubles or changes coverages. The concept is to spread the ball out, to WRs, RBs and TEs all over the field and that's completely possible with this group. Tate and Shepard are interchangeable WRs, both excellent blockers and route runners and there is a bevy of guys who stepped up late last year. Look at what the offense did without Odell. Yes they skunked in Tennessee, but 40 in Washington the first game without the golden god and slugfests with Indy and Dallas that we scored 27 and 35 points.

To that offense, without Odell, we add Golden Tate, Kevin Zeitler and Mike Remmers. And to those defenses we lose Olivier Vernon but we add Markus Golden, Dexter Lawrence, Oshane Ximines, DeAndre Baker, Antoine Bethea, Jabrill Peppers, and Julian Love. This team is deeper, younger, faster and deeper. We're not there yet, but we're far far closer than we were than when we fired McAdoo and Reese. The arrow is pointing up, like it or not.


Goddamn you're making so much sense lately it's scary. Maybe it's just because I agree with you wholeheartedly. LOL
RE: This is a WCO  
mikeinbloomfield : 5/15/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14444311 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
It's not predicated on a deep threat or a #1 WR, the idea is to spread the ball, widen the field and create lanes with width. Slants, Digs and combination routes will rule the day, routes that don't require a WR who attracts doubles or changes coverages. The concept is to spread the ball out, to WRs, RBs and TEs all over the field and that's completely possible with this group. Tate and Shepard are interchangeable WRs, both excellent blockers and route runners and there is a bevy of guys who stepped up late last year. Look at what the offense did without Odell. Yes they skunked in Tennessee, but 40 in Washington the first game without the golden god and slugfests with Indy and Dallas that we scored 27 and 35 points.

To that offense, without Odell, we add Golden Tate, Kevin Zeitler and Mike Remmers. And to those defenses we lose Olivier Vernon but we add Markus Golden, Dexter Lawrence, Oshane Ximines, DeAndre Baker, Antoine Bethea, Jabrill Peppers, and Julian Love. This team is deeper, younger, faster and deeper. We're not there yet, but we're far far closer than we were than when we fired McAdoo and Reese. The arrow is pointing up, like it or not.



Except that they had the same offensive last year with a talent like Beckham, and they were exceedingly average. If your argument is that Tate will do better in this system than Beckham would, you're crazy. There are reasons why Tate is on his fourth team, and top of the list is that teams see more value with other players.


Pointing to games last year don't help your cause. Washington started Mark Sanchez, who threw a pick six and then let Barkley run all over them. Our top receiver that game was Engram with 77 yards. You wave your hand at scoring 0 against the 9-7 Titans and don't mention that the Cowboys didn't even play Elliot that game. They lost the Colts game.


The defense being good is predicated on a whole bunch of rookies being able to play day one.
RE: RE: This is a WCO  
Eric on Li : 5/15/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14444745 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:

Except that they had the same offensive last year with a talent like Beckham, and they were exceedingly average. If your argument is that Tate will do better in this system than Beckham would, you're crazy. There are reasons why Tate is on his fourth team, and top of the list is that teams see more value with other players.


3/5's of the OL is different (all 3 are upgrades) and the 2 remaining starters are in year 2 vs. year 1.

So they downgraded from OBJ ---> Tate.
Upgraded the overall OL.

So not the same offense. And while they were exceedingly average they scored more points than the rest of the division - which we'd all sign for on the spot right now probably.
We have no deep threat.  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 5/15/2019 11:14 pm : link
The defenses will.play 8 in the box and shallow cover 2. The loss of Beckham has turned a position of strength into a position of severe weakness. Those that think otherwise are just not being honest with themselves. WR is a major issue.
RE: We have no deep threat.  
Klaatu : 5/16/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14445682 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
The defenses will.play 8 in the box and shallow cover 2. The loss of Beckham has turned a position of strength into a position of severe weakness. Those that think otherwise are just not being honest with themselves. WR is a major issue.


We've got a couple of guys with enough speed to take the top off of a defense. Their hands could be an issue, but not their speed. Regardless, no one WR is going to replace Beckham's production. It's going to take a team effort, and no doubt that's what the Giants are counting on.
From when Gettleman got here  
WillieYoung : 5/16/2019 10:25 am : link
We've lost OBJ, Collins, Snacks, Vernon, Wynn, Apple. We added Tate, Peppers, Bethea and two draft classes. If 2019 is as good as 2018, we'll be better, maybe not in 2019 but certainly in 2020. If our 2019 class is average, we're in trouble.
not worried about wr at all  
bc4life : 5/18/2019 10:33 am : link
screw having that dynamic #1. They have a scary running game, especially if Remmers or Big George complete the OL rebuild. Shurmur repeats ad nauseum - run game to make play action more credible.

Thing about Shepard and Tate - they are both very good and importantly interchangable. Will be very difficult to predict how they'll be used on each play. With respect to WR type production - you have categorize Engram as a WR. Barkley is a very receiver out of the backfield same-same Gallman. And, they have two wrs who can take the top of a defense in Coleman and Slayton.

again, not worried at all about the position this year or next
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