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@WindhorstESPN on Anthony Davis trade: “If the Pelicans want to go all young and build around Zion, I think the Knicks have the best package to offer” “From what I understand the Pelicans are not interested in making a deal with the Los Angeles Lakers” |
Why? The NBA is a star league. None of those guys will ever be stars. A trio of KD, Kyrie & AD gives you a realistic chance at an NBA title for a handful of years. If you win 1 title or possibly more in a 3-4 year span then it was well worth it.
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#3, Knox, Robinson, DSJR & future 1st would be a mistake imo.
Why? The NBA is a star league. None of those guys will ever be stars. A trio of KD, Kyrie & AD gives you a realistic chance at an NBA title for a handful of years. If you win 1 title or possibly more in a 3-4 year span then it was well worth it.
While I don dont disagree with your premise, Barrett could definitely turn into a star
+1 That is the “old” Knicks way, time to keep what they have amassed and add FA’s!!! Plus give some of these young players a chance to develop, who knows?
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In comment 14445595 Sean said:
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#3, Knox, Robinson, DSJR & future 1st would be a mistake imo.
Why? The NBA is a star league. None of those guys will ever be stars. A trio of KD, Kyrie & AD gives you a realistic chance at an NBA title for a handful of years. If you win 1 title or possibly more in a 3-4 year span then it was well worth it.
While I don dont disagree with your premise, Barrett could definitely turn into a star
Yeah he could. How far off is that? 3-4 years? KD & Kyrie could be gone by then.
Everything I'm saying is dependent on those two coming to NY.
Considering who this is coming from Lakers fans can't really say much.
R you serious? If you could have Kyrie, kid, and Davis. I make that deal all day every day. I would try to keep Robinson, but wouldn't be a deal breaker.
I think the Lakers getting the fourth pick hurts the knicks because they have better young talent and would beat any Knicks offer. If the Lakers stayed at nine, then different story.
Is a better deal than anything the Lakers can put up.
Plus the tampering left a bad taste in NO.
Is a better deal than anything the Lakers can put up.
Plus the tampering left a bad taste in NO.
The 4th pick, josh hart, kuzma, Ingram, Ball, and two first rounders is better imo. Im not high on smith jr and Knox. Plus Dallas could be really good in time. But, the refusal to trade with LA may loom large.
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#3, Knox, Robinson, DSJR & future 1st would be a mistake imo.
R you serious? If you could have Kyrie, kid, and Davis. I make that deal all day every day. I would try to keep Robinson, but wouldn't be a deal breaker.
Again,as has been touched on before, but in order to bring in all 3,you'd need to make the Davis deal in August,strip yourself of most of your roster & then add ring chasers to complete the roster.Don't think the Pelicans will wait that long so if the Knicks want Davis,they'd have to move sooner rather than later & then would only have cap space for KD & their PG would be DSmith (if he's not part of the trade). As much as I like AD,the prospect of stripping the roster bare (along w/1st round picks),not being able to bring in the veteran PG(Kyrie/Kemba) & trying to duplicate Miami's success( they had 3 stars) w/ring chasers isn't as appealing as bringing in 2 FAs (KD/Kyrie hopefully),keeping & allowing RJ & Mitch to grow as 2 homegrown stars & still bring in some ring chasers!
What stars have the Knicks ever traded for? McDyess? Carmelo? Both were good players. Neither are anywhere near Anthony Davis.
I'd like to see them win. How they get there is immaterial to me.
Overall individually: 76th
Overall including assists: 96th
Pick and roll: 56th
Pick and roll including assists: 59th
Transition: 78th
ISO: 72nd
Spot-Up: 77th
Jump shots: 60th
Around basket: 51st
Catch and shoot: 72nd
Could he slide to 3?
Overall individually: 76th
Overall including assists: 96th
Pick and roll: 56th
Pick and roll including assists: 59th
Transition: 78th
ISO: 72nd
Spot-Up: 77th
Jump shots: 60th
Around basket: 51st
Catch and shoot: 72nd
Could he slide to 3?
Someone posted in the other thread that Memphis has already told him they're taking him
:)
So long as MeBron is there.
De'Andre Hunter is better than Culver - outplayed him when they were matched up on each other in the NCAA title game.
Overall individually: 76th
Overall including assists: 96th
Pick and roll: 56th
Pick and roll including assists: 59th
Transition: 78th
ISO: 72nd
Spot-Up: 77th
Jump shots: 60th
Around basket: 51st
Catch and shoot: 72nd
Could he slide to 3?
Morant is a true floor general. He can score, but what makes him elite is his playmaking. He's an incredible passer.
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if the idea if to bring a player in to play with KD and Irving, I prefer Jarrett Culver at #3. More balanced game than Barrett. Less upside, but still all-star upside IMO. Better and safer pick IMO.
De'Andre Hunter is better than Culver - outplayed him when they were matched up on each other in the NCAA title game.
Sample size of 1.
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In comment 14445865 Metnut said:
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if the idea if to bring a player in to play with KD and Irving, I prefer Jarrett Culver at #3. More balanced game than Barrett. Less upside, but still all-star upside IMO. Better and safer pick IMO.
De'Andre Hunter is better than Culver - outplayed him when they were matched up on each other in the NCAA title game.
Sample size of 1.
Not saying Hunter is a bad pick either. Just that I prefer Culver based on his entire body of work and more balanced game. Barrett, Culver and Hunter are the #3, #4 and #5 prospects in the draft IMO (I think most would agree?) and Knicks are in position to take the best of them.
This is a much deeper lottery than people are giving credit for.
The timing of this trade is going to be tricky. Do they agree to a deal in principle before the draft but don’t execute it until after free agency?
Culver's really good, don't get me wrong. He's a better passer with a better handle than Dre, and he's a very good defensive player, but not on Dre's level.
I freely admit to being a homer.
This. People keep referencing the Melo trade - that's silly because Melo was never on AD's level as a player.
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In comment 14445880 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14445865 Metnut said:
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if the idea if to bring a player in to play with KD and Irving, I prefer Jarrett Culver at #3. More balanced game than Barrett. Less upside, but still all-star upside IMO. Better and safer pick IMO.
De'Andre Hunter is better than Culver - outplayed him when they were matched up on each other in the NCAA title game.
Sample size of 1.
Not saying Hunter is a bad pick either. Just that I prefer Culver based on his entire body of work and more balanced game. Barrett, Culver and Hunter are the #3, #4 and #5 prospects in the draft IMO (I think most would agree?) and Knicks are in position to take the best of them.
This is a much deeper lottery than people are giving credit for.
Hunter is deadly from 3 and a strong defender which is what you need with KD and another max.
Barrett not hitting the 3 bothers me with 2 max players.
Jrue Holiday
RJ Barrett
Kevin Knox
Zion Williamson
Mitchell Robinson
Bench:
Dennis Smith Jr.
Frank Jackson
E’twaun Moore
Christian Wood
Kenrich Williams
Cheick Diallo
Trevon Blueitt
And honestly we may not need to give them Mitchell if we offer the Dal unprotected FRP.
The young guys have higher upside combined with the Dal unprotected pick. Barrett may be their favorite piece of any deal out there. And it usually is about getting the best guy back.
Exactly. And our philosophy drastically shifts to win it all when we bring in KD. They won't want the learning curves and potential unknowns of younger unproven players in filling out the roster.
Jrue Holiday
RJ Barrett
Kevin Knox
Zion Williamson
Mitchell Robinson
Bench:
Dennis Smith Jr.
Frank Jackson
E’twaun Moore
Christian Wood
Kenrich Williams
Cheick Diallo
Trevon Blueitt
And honestly we may not need to give them Mitchell if we offer the Dal unprotected FRP.
The young guys have higher upside combined with the Dal unprotected pick. Barrett may be their favorite piece of any deal out there. And it usually is about getting the best guy back.
So which is it? Those 4 guys plus the Dallas unprotected or the 3 guys plus the Dallas unprotected. Or, just the 4 guys?
Not being a wise ass, just don't understand.
Good? Hes 26 and top 5-10 in entire NBA. Id say that's better than good.
KD and AD would probably be the top 2 or 3 guys the Knicks have EVER gotten in FA history if we get them.
People, you CANNOT have it both ways. Unless you have the #1 pick and get a Zio, LeBron or similar type of prospect, you are NOT building a championship team with through the draft.
People also need to keep in mind that Durant will turn 31 in September- meaning that his window- and the window of any team that signs him is going to be very short- maybe 3-4 years. That means if you sign Durant, it is "all-in" now, not later.
The Knicks will try and create a situation where they add two additional stars who are much younger than Durant- like Davis who doesn't even turn 27 until next March- or Irving who also turns 27 in March. In that way, when Durant's contract ends (and he ages out of superstar status), they can add another big star to complement those two.
However, holding onto draft picks does nothing. Let's just assume for a moment that the Dallas pick becomes the #1 pick in that draft- that player doesn't even put on a Knick uniform until October/November 2021. Even then, unless he is a transcendent player (and there aren't any on the horizon for that draft right now), it takes that player 2-3 years to become a star in his own right.
The problem? Let's assume that the Knicks bring in AD and Irving this off-season. Using the above assumption about the #1 overall pick, that player doesn't become useful to those other stars until about 2023- when both AD and Irving are about 32-33 years old- and their windows are closing fast.
Bigger problem is that AD's and Irving's contracts would also expire in the interim. Most FA are going to look at the young guy and think to themselves "he can't help me win a championship" and go elsewhere.
For better or worse, the NBA has become a mercenary league. While system teams like the Spurs have some success- but have won one title in 15 years (2014)- it is usually FA that puts a team over the top.
Golden State DID draft Curry and Thompson- but signed Durant to supplement their run. Would GS have won in 2017 and 2018 without Durant? Maybe, but it sure helped to have him.
Look at Miami with LeBron, or Cleveland after bringing in LeBron. While not getting Love in FA, they don't get that run without that trade (using a top pick to get him).
In short, in the modern era, it is POSSIBLE to partially build through the draft- but that is the exception to the rule that you build for now with FA and trades.
Besides, counting on future 1st rounders is a fools errand- look at Boston, who thought they were smart in loading up on 1st rounders, with the idea that they could turn them into assets. A year ago, having Sacramento and Memphis' first rounders looked like gold.
Now, they have 3 middling picks in a shallow draft- none higher than #14- and those picks don't amount to much or give them leverage. The lottery is unpredictable and as we have learned, having one of the worst, or even the worst record, does not guarantee anything.
Take the sure route and made trades/sign FA. That is the only way to have firm control over your destiny. Anything else is relying on outside factors that you can't control- and can come back to bite you.
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The Pelicans potential starting lineup for next season:
Jrue Holiday
RJ Barrett
Kevin Knox
Zion Williamson
Mitchell Robinson
Bench:
Dennis Smith Jr.
Frank Jackson
E’twaun Moore
Christian Wood
Kenrich Williams
Cheick Diallo
Trevon Blueitt
And honestly we may not need to give them Mitchell if we offer the Dal unprotected FRP.
The young guys have higher upside combined with the Dal unprotected pick. Barrett may be their favorite piece of any deal out there. And it usually is about getting the best guy back.
So which is it? Those 4 guys plus the Dallas unprotected or the 3 guys plus the Dallas unprotected. Or, just the 4 guys?
Not being a wise ass, just don't understand.
To make the deal work salary cap wise we likely have to give them every contract greater than 4 million. So that would be DSJ Knox and Frank and the #3 pick (7-8 mill). Mitch is only 1.5 mill or so we can squeeze him in under the cap. Without Mitch they probably ask for an extra FRP.
Hell, they'd be in the top handful of players the Knicks have ever had. Frazier, Reed, and Ewing are the only ones I'd say are in the ballpark with them.
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KD and AD would probably be the top 2 or 3 guys the Knicks have EVER gotten in FA history if we get them.
Hell, they'd be in the top handful of players the Knicks have ever had. Frazier, Reed, and Ewing are the only ones I'd say are in the ballpark with them.
Yes sir. And Kyrie while lower on the list is still probably top 10-15. And that's all at once potentially.
They can also win with KD, Kyrie, Barrett, Knox and Robinson and the pick.
The key is landing the free agents.
Culver's really good, don't get me wrong. He's a better passer with a better handle than Dre, and he's a very good defensive player, but not on Dre's level.
I freely admit to being a homer.
Hunter looks like a perfect 3nD player for today's game. He's definitely got a higher floor than Culver or Barrett. He might be the best option for the Knicks.
Assuming AD doesn't happen, Hunter + Robinson are the perfect type of players to surround Durant + Kyrie/Kemba with. And if Knox becomes something valuable, he could be a real x-factor.
Even if you don't get AD, watching all your young pieces around KD/Kyrie or Kemba is going to be really fun. It all starts with KD.
They can also win with KD, Kyrie, Barrett, Knox and Robinson and the pick.
The key is landing the free agents.
Playoffs magnify young players inexperience. We can win some games sure but we very likely don't win a championship with that group. Not in the next couple years anyways. With AD on the other hand a guy who is battle tested only 26 and entering his prime years....
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Ja Morant points per possession percentile nationally:
Overall individually: 76th
Overall including assists: 96th
Pick and roll: 56th
Pick and roll including assists: 59th
Transition: 78th
ISO: 72nd
Spot-Up: 77th
Jump shots: 60th
Around basket: 51st
Catch and shoot: 72nd
Could he slide to 3?
Morant is a true floor general. He can score, but what makes him elite is his playmaking. He's an incredible passer.
At any given moment he can pass with any hand which i noticed a lot when watching him. I think he is going to be a top 5 point guard. Yes he is by no means a 3 point specialist but he shot 36% on the year so i'm not worried about that. Has everything you want in a point guard.
I know the knicks signed A few guys to non guaranteed deals at year end with player option, ie kadeem Allen, Garrett, Jenkins and the ellerson. Can knicks sign Kd and Kyrie. Then guarantee All if these guys as part of AD package. I would assume it adds up to roughly $5 mil?
Also is there a chance there is a surprise to the upside with the salary cap? I think it’s set at $108, is it ever actually higher? Even if it came in at $3 mil higher it would be huge for knicks
Also is there a chance there is a surprise to the upside with the salary cap? I think it’s set at $108, is it ever actually higher? Even if it came in at $3 mil higher it would be huge for knicks
The cap is projected to be $109M. The final number is set next month. It’s not impossible it could go up, but unlikely since they just reaffirmed the projection last month.
I know the knicks signed A few guys to non guaranteed deals at year end with player option, ie kadeem Allen, Garrett, Jenkins and the ellerson. Can knicks sign Kd and Kyrie. Then guarantee All if these guys as part of AD package. I would assume it adds up to roughly $5 mil?
Also is there a chance there is a surprise to the upside with the salary cap? I think it’s set at $108, is it ever actually higher? Even if it came in at $3 mil higher it would be huge for knicks
We can still make it work.
Renounce Thomas at 1 mill cap hit. All 4 mill salaries back to NOLA. DSJ,Knox, Frank and #3 (7-8 mill) send back over. Use soft cap rules to fill out roster. MLE , mid room exception , Vet min signings can all go over cap.
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Is killiing is right now if we ant KD, Kyrie and AD. An extra $6.5 mil in space would be huge.
I know the knicks signed A few guys to non guaranteed deals at year end with player option, ie kadeem Allen, Garrett, Jenkins and the ellerson. Can knicks sign Kd and Kyrie. Then guarantee All if these guys as part of AD package. I would assume it adds up to roughly $5 mil?
Also is there a chance there is a surprise to the upside with the salary cap? I think it’s set at $108, is it ever actually higher? Even if it came in at $3 mil higher it would be huge for knicks
We can still make it work.
Renounce Thomas at 1 mill cap hit. All 4 mill salaries back to NOLA. DSJ,Knox, Frank and #3 (7-8 mill) send back over. Use soft cap rules to fill out roster. MLE , mid room exception , Vet min signings can all go over cap.
Also for a trade you can use the 120% rule and go over the cap.
Meaning if ADs salary is about 27 mill we only need to send back 21.6 mill in salary for it to work.
There is no possible way you think that's enough to get Anthony Davis. 1 rookie, 1 average player and 2 shitty players with 2 picks that we have no idea where they end up. You think the Pelicans are gonna do that?
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#3, Knox, Robinson, DSJR & future 1st would be a mistake imo.
Why? The NBA is a star league. None of those guys will ever be stars. A trio of KD, Kyrie & AD gives you a realistic chance at an NBA title for a handful of years. If you win 1 title or possibly more in a 3-4 year span then it was well worth it.
Barrett could turn into a star and Robinson could turn into an all NBA defensive team player but I do agree with you, go for the star (AD). If we could somehow make the trade and not include either one of Knox or Mitchell. Knox reminds me of a younger Tobias Harris, he could develop to be just as good as him. While not a star he is a good player
Just an idea what it would roughly look like:
DeAndre/Mitch/AD
AD/Mitch/KD
KD/Ellenson/vet Ring chaser
DOTSON/ALLEN
Kyrie/vet Ring chaser
How anyone could complain about that lineup is mind boggling.
Inexperience of youth players needs to be measured when going for the championship.
You sure... there are Knicks fans that will call it garbage stats on a bad team or something.
Barrett - def helps with making Zion comfortable
Smith Jr. - who we heard they actually like
Trier or Frank - I really prefer to keep Frank. Again he is 20 years old and everyone has given up already, which is insane.
Dallas unprotected 1st
Knicks 2020 or Dallas 2023z
In essence they are getting 2 lottery players with upaide including Barrett who is a future all star.
A solid rotation player in trier or Frank who are both young
Dallas pick has a good chance of being a lottery pick given that they are in the West. And knicks pick could be lottery or late 20’s depending on free agency.
At the end of the day if they want Knox or Mitch to close the deal then fine I guess would do it, but I’m not including both. You can’t trade 5 young players and 2 high draft picks for 1 player. I don’t care how good he is. If he gets seriously hurt your ruined everything you have been taking for.
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In comment 14445595 Sean said:
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#3, Knox, Robinson, DSJR & future 1st would be a mistake imo.
Why? The NBA is a star league. None of those guys will ever be stars. A trio of KD, Kyrie & AD gives you a realistic chance at an NBA title for a handful of years. If you win 1 title or possibly more in a 3-4 year span then it was well worth it.
Barrett could turn into a star and Robinson could turn into an all NBA defensive team player but I do agree with you, go for the star (AD). If we could somehow make the trade and not include either one of Knox or Mitchell. Knox reminds me of a younger Tobias Harris, he could develop to be just as good as him. While not a star he is a good player
The $$$ are really tight. Knox almost definitely goes at 4.5M while keeping Mitch at 1.5 is more likely.
That is why a Knick deal is strong. Barrett is possibly the best chip for building a team around Zion then you have DSJ,Knox and Frank (lowest value but need to shed salary). All these guys for Pels don't hamper their salary cap and if they develop they are cost controlled but if not can be dumped as they will be going into team option and qualifying offer years. If you throw in the unprotected Dal pick it is a very good deal.
Knox
Smith Jr
Frank
Dallas unprotected 1st in 2021 (could very well be a lottery pick)
Knicks 2020 pick
$5,243,000 in cash (the limit in the 2018/19 season you could send a team in a trade)
This gives them the pairing of Zion and Barrett, two first round picks, Two young PG's. Also gives NO some cash considering they are the one of the lowest revenue making teams out there
Barrett - def helps with making Zion comfortable
Smith Jr. - who we heard they actually like
Trier or Frank - I really prefer to keep Frank. Again he is 20 years old and everyone has given up already, which is insane.
Dallas unprotected 1st
Knicks 2020 or Dallas 2023z
In essence they are getting 2 lottery players with upaide including Barrett who is a future all star.
A solid rotation player in trier or Frank who are both young
Dallas pick has a good chance of being a lottery pick given that they are in the West. And knicks pick could be lottery or late 20’s depending on free agency.
At the end of the day if they want Knox or Mitch to close the deal then fine I guess would do it, but I’m not including both. You can’t trade 5 young players and 2 high draft picks for 1 player. I don’t care how good he is. If he gets seriously hurt your ruined everything you have been taking for.
Trier is cheaper and frankly Frank has had a couple years to flash and really hasn't shown much at all. Trier has shown great 6th man ability at minimum and can pick up scoring slack if one of the big 3 go down. Dotson is a pretty efficient scorer for a role player to the big 3 and plays D.
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No one is giving up major assets unless AD agrees to sign an extension. As far as we know the Knicks and Lakers are the only 2 teams that he is willing to do that for. Pelicans don’t want to trade with Lakers. Why are people saying DSJr, Knox and Barrett suck already. This are 20 year highly drafted players. They have value to many teams who are in rebuild mode. They will be locked in for 3-4 years at low costs with tons of potential, this is not crap. Looks at the previous trades for cousins, Melo, Paul George and Kyrie. Obviously a tier below Davis, but Of Davis says he is leaving no matter what they have no choice but to trade Him. They are never going to get fair value for him because he is a top 3 player. The following offer should be as good as they are going to get from anyone:
Barrett - def helps with making Zion comfortable
Smith Jr. - who we heard they actually like
Trier or Frank - I really prefer to keep Frank. Again he is 20 years old and everyone has given up already, which is insane.
Dallas unprotected 1st
Knicks 2020 or Dallas 2023z
In essence they are getting 2 lottery players with upaide including Barrett who is a future all star.
A solid rotation player in trier or Frank who are both young
Dallas pick has a good chance of being a lottery pick given that they are in the West. And knicks pick could be lottery or late 20’s depending on free agency.
At the end of the day if they want Knox or Mitch to close the deal then fine I guess would do it, but I’m not including both. You can’t trade 5 young players and 2 high draft picks for 1 player. I don’t care how good he is. If he gets seriously hurt your ruined everything you have been taking for.
Trier is cheaper and frankly Frank has had a couple years to flash and really hasn't shown much at all. Trier has shown great 6th man ability at minimum and can pick up scoring slack if one of the big 3 go down. Dotson is a pretty efficient scorer for a role player to the big 3 and plays D.
I agree Trier is a much better player. He was good in college. This was a great pick up by the Knicks.
Isringhausen, Wilson and Pulsifer for Ken Griffey Jr?
I don't know about that, but I can definitely see similarities in their ability to get to the basket and finish. Barrett has great footwork and touch around the rim, he could easily develop a vicious Manu/Harden euro-step in the pros.
Again, it all depends on his shot but you can see the offensive potential.
People say he's a ball dominant / volume scorer, but he has a much more complete game than that to be iso in the post, on the wing, but also move w/o the ball, is a willing passer, and of course have huge value on D
IMO he has the least bust value, but his ceiling is also being underrated. And like them or not, Dukies often are solid on fundamentals, which is why he's believed to be the most NBA ready / polished right now, and has as much possibility to be one of the best players from this draft class
I don't know about that, but I can definitely see similarities in their ability to get to the basket and finish. Barrett has great footwork and touch around the rim, he could easily develop a vicious Manu/Harden euro-step in the pros.
Again, it all depends on his shot but you can see the offensive potential.
If NO feels the same way the package we send back may not need to include Mitch or too many additional FRPs
Yup and keeping Mitchell. Jordan for the MLE or mid room exception. Vet min fillers.
I would consider that too. Who is more injury prone of the 2
Jesus, the Kyrie hate here is some of the stupidest shit I’ve seen. Holiday isn’t close to the player that Irving is, he’s older, and he misses just as many games.
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With the picks then tel them sure throw in jrue Holliday Nd let’s forget about Kyrie. I would take jrue over Kyrie anyday. One of the most underrated guys in the league. Too defender at the position and does everything else really well. Kd ad and Holliday to me is better than Kyrie
Jesus, the Kyrie hate here is some of the stupidest shit I’ve seen. Holiday isn’t close to the player that Irving is, he’s older, and he misses just as many games.
No doubt Kyrie is an excellent player. And better than Jrue but Jrue plays better D which is quite important. But it seems he gets nicked up just as much as Kyrie does.