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Peppers adds value to Giant defense, can fill Collins shoes

BSIMatt : 5/15/2019 10:05 pm
Quote:

He hasn’t grabbed the headlines like Jamal Adams, but Peppers was a productive defensive chess piece in his own right. His 12 pressures were the third-most among safeties last year, and his 23 coverage stops ranked 18th – and Peppers is only still getting familiar with the position.

Somewhat ironically, the closest corollary to Peppers at the position is actually the guy he’s replacing. Landon Collins spent over half his snaps as a rookie at deep safety and got even more exposed as the lowest-graded safety in the NFL. In Year 2, Collins shifted to a box role, and the natural playmaking ability took over as he led the position in stops. In 2018 though, it was Peppers who actually graded out higher for PFF.


Jabrill Peppers adds value to Giants' defense, can fill Landon Collins' shoes in 2019 - ( New Window )
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More Bethea  
BSIMatt : 5/16/2019 12:37 am : link
Quote:


It’s been quite some time since Antione Bethea ran his 4.39 40-yard dash at the 2006 NFL Scouting Combine, and the now 34-year-old vet has surely lost a step (or two) since then, but he’s still finding a way to get the job done.

Bethea played an impressive 1,111 defensive snaps for the Arizona Cardinals this past season and earned an even more impressive 86.4 overall grade in the year prior. In his career-best season (87.7 overall grade in 2007), Bethea allowed just a 50.2 passer rating in coverage, logging four picks and three pass breakups in the process.

Peppers is a good tackler and plays the run well, but Collins plays  
Ira : 5/16/2019 6:40 am : link
the run better. However this is more than made up by Peppers ability to cover - which is better than Collins.
RE: RE: Collins was good against the run  
giants#1 : 5/16/2019 6:58 am : link
In comment 14445636 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
In comment 14445632 kes722 said:


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AWFUL against the pass.

Never understood why people liked him so much



2016. He was almost playing at a defensive MVP level.


But he hasn't played at that level since. I also wonder if he had some Stevie Brown INTs and if his coverage wasn't as good as many remember. Kind of like the perception of Ogletree, particularly in coverage, changed substantially after his 2 INT game last season.

- Collins had 5 INTs in 2016. Just 2 since then.
- Collins had 78 return yards (INTs/FRs) with a TD in 2016. Just 54 return yards the rest of his career.
- Collins had 4 sacks in 2016. ZERO sacks the rest of his career.
- Collins had 5 QBHits in 2016. He has 5 total for the rest of his career.
- Collins had 9 TFLs in 2016. He has just 8 since then.

The last 3 are a little surprising given his still strong, and largely deserved, reputation as an in-the-box safety. He looked like he was on a Troy Polamalu trajectory that season, making impact plays (TFLs, sacks, QBHits) all over the field and living in the opposition backfield. I don't know what's changed since 2016 (injuries, surrounding talent - particularly in 2018, scheme), but there's no question he's making few plays behind the LOS.
Is peppers really Collins replacement?  
UberAlias : 5/16/2019 7:28 am : link
I thought Peppers was more of the fee safety. We replace Collins with whoever plays the strong side.
RE: Is peppers really Collins replacement?  
giants#1 : 5/16/2019 7:31 am : link
In comment 14445756 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I thought Peppers was more of the fee safety. We replace Collins with whoever plays the strong side.


Bethea is the FS. Peppers is indeed the SS and is best in-the-box like Collins, though at least according to some sources, Peppers was roughly average in coverage last year and made significant strides when forced to be the deep safety.
Being saying since day 1  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 7:54 am : link
He’s going to become a star in NY, especially in a scheme like this.

He was made for a guy like Bettcher

I loved Collins, but he was beyond overrated on here. He will not be a “loss”, at all - Peppers is a much better athlete and much better scheme fit
RE: Is peppers really Collins replacement?  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 7:56 am : link
In comment 14445756 UberAlias said:
Quote:
I thought Peppers was more of the fee safety. We replace Collins with whoever plays the strong side.


Peppers is a much better coverage safety. However,
He can do this too - ( New Window )
Peppers definitely looks to be more versatile than Collins  
BSIMatt : 5/16/2019 8:22 am : link
Here are their snap breakdowns in 2018:

Quote:

Collins snap breakdown in 2018:
468 box snaps
115 covering slot
109 playing FS
70.4 overall grade.


Quote:

Peppers lined up along the line of scrimmage or in the box on 329 snaps, as a slot or wide corner on 155 snaps, and as a deep safety on only 281. This time around though, he wasn’t a liability when lined up deep. Peppers coverage grade jumped from 61.7 to 77.3.
77.6 overall grade for Peppers in 2018.


Peppers is definitely has better range/athleticism than Collins.

Also, Bethea seems pretty interchangeable with Peppers as he has experience playing both FS and up close to the line and is a good tackler.
We never gave him a complimentary  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/16/2019 8:26 am : link
safety to play besides.

You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.

If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.
Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
FStubbs : 5/16/2019 8:27 am : link
It's not the 80s.
RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 8:36 am : link
In comment 14445806 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
safety to play besides.

You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.

If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.


Safeties that are actually great don’t need complementary safeties to cover up their weaknesses

Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit. I liked him, but that contract Washington gave him was absurd - and I look forward to exploiting him in coverage twice a year.
RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 8:37 am : link
In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
Quote:
It's not the 80s.


Short n sweet n absolutely right
I like Peppers.  
Giant John : 5/16/2019 8:42 am : link
He really showed improvement over his first year. Think he will be a big piece in our defense.
...  
christian : 5/16/2019 8:50 am : link
Collins was always a hybrid safety. He's much like Engram in that sense.

With that type of player you can find a way to exploit the plus talent or you can try and fit them into the convention of your scheme.

I don't have a lot of opinion on it -- but I won't be shocked if both Collins and Peppers have huge years -- they are better fits for the their respective new teams.
....  
Toth029 : 5/16/2019 8:51 am : link
Why do people cite Pro Bowls?

He made it in 2017 and 2018 because of his 2016 work. He was in no shape or form a top Safety the past two seasons.
I liked Collins,  
darren in pdx : 5/16/2019 8:52 am : link
would like him to be on the team because he’s a good puece on a good defense when he can play to his strengths. Except, this defense was not a good defense, he got more money than a rebuilding team could afford and also he talks too freely to the media.
RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
UberAlias : 5/16/2019 8:55 am : link
In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


Quote:


It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
RE: Collins was good against the run  
EricJ : 5/16/2019 9:06 am : link
In comment 14445632 kes722 said:
Quote:
AWFUL against the pass.

Never understood why people liked him so much


It is comments like this which support the player's belief that fans dont know WTF they are talking about.

Go back and look at what this defense was the season before we drafted Collins.. We were getting RUN OVER. We could not stop the run... period. Collins is a strong safety, not a free safety. At that position, you do want the guy to be able to cover (I agree) but his primary responsibility is to support the run.
RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


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It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.


Peppers is good against the run as well ... and yes, running the ball and stopping the run is still very important - despite the “passing league” cliche’d BS

Peppers is much better in coverage, and a good blitzed/run defender ...

(Feel free to look up the run offense/defense statistics for the playoff/SB teams over the years, even recently, you’ll be surprised)

I’ve linked them below ... Spoiler: both SB teams ranked top 5 in rushing, and both of their QBs actually had more INTs than TDs in the playoffs

2017 SB Champs : #1 run defense, #3 run offense
Numbers - ( New Window )
RE: ....  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 9:11 am : link
In comment 14445836 Toth029 said:
Quote:
Why do people cite Pro Bowls?

He made it in 2017 and 2018 because of his 2016 work. He was in no shape or form a top Safety the past two seasons.


I instantly stop reading any “argument” featuring the pro bowl ... it’s a popularity content , nothing more
The most interesting part of the article to me was this  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/16/2019 9:13 am : link
RE: The most interesting part of the article to me was this  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 9:15 am : link
In comment 14445867 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:


How is Peppers a much better scheme fit? Exhibit A. Thank you for sharing.
RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/16/2019 9:29 am : link
In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


Quote:


It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.


"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.



Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.




These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.

The


RE: RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14445897 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


Quote:


It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.



"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.



Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.




These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.

The



Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird

...  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 9:47 am : link
Some more interesting tidbits ...

70% of the top 10 run offenses, playoffs
80% of the top 10 run defenses, playoffs

More fun facts:

Brady, 2 TD 3 INT in playoffs
Goff, 1 TD, 2 INT in playoffs

Yes, the 2 SB QBs combined for a whopping 3 TDs in 6 games.

More fun facts:

Rams Defense: 3.4 YPC allowed in playoffs
Patriots Defense: 3.1 YPC allowed in playoffs

It’s almost like running the ball and run defense still matter.




Fun with numbers - ( New Window )
I've been beating this drum all off-season...  
Dnew15 : 5/16/2019 9:55 am : link
Collins is an MVP type defensive player, he's done it - when he is used like he was in 2016. He's not a good coverage/center field type safety - that is not the strength of his game.

JB last year and Spags the year before asked Collins to do more than he is capable of doing. Both DCs were forced to scheme around corners and LB that were not NFL caliber players.

In 2016 the Giants had THREE legit NFL starters playing CB - JJ, DRC and Eli Apple. They also had J. Castillas and K. Robinson who had at least competent coverage skills as LBs.

Having said all that, he's still not as bad in coverage as everyone on this board seems to think - he got torched by KIttle and Ertz (lots of good CB/LB/S did - they are both All-Pro caliber players) - but look back at the game logs - he wasn't that bad against everyone else.

I've no problems with people saying that Peppers might be better - he might be. But LC is a damn good player and I'm not looking forward to seeing him twice a year as part of that Redskins defense that is going to be sneaky good moving forward.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/16/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14445906 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14445897 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


Quote:


It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.



"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.



Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.




These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.

The





Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird


And went home early to the bottom 5 run defenses.
RE: Being saying since day 1  
trueblueinpw : 5/16/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14445785 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
He’s going to become a star in NY, especially in a scheme like this.

He was made for a guy like Bettcher

I loved Collins, but he was beyond overrated on here. He will not be a “loss”, at all - Peppers is a much better athlete and much better scheme fit


Yup, totally agree. Outside of 2016, Collins was, at best, a neutral player. Peps is the biggest addition this off season and he’s going to make the team much better. He’s a kick returner too. Huge upgrade on the field and off the field. Very excited for this Giant.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14445944 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14445906 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445897 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


Quote:


It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.



"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.



Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.




These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.

The





Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird




And went home early to the bottom 5 run defenses.


Saints D: 3.0 YPC in playoffs
Patriots D: 3.1 YPC in playoffs
Rams D: 3.4 YPC in playoffs
Chiefs D: 4.2 YPC in playoffs

Every team allowed a YPC that would’ve been top 10 in the league over a full season.
3/4 teams would’ve been the best YPC allowed in the league.

AFC Championship Game: Mahomes + Brady = 5 combined playoff TDs
NFC Championship Game: Brees + Goff = 5 combined playoff TDs

Apply your favorite stat to actual playoff production and ... it only further proves my point. We can drool over fantasy points and the almighty “franchise QB” as much as we want ... when you run the ball, and stop the run, you have a great chance to win games.

And now, back to Jabrill Peppers.
I like him on the Redskins  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/16/2019 10:17 am : link
His big mouth will give us plenty of bulletin board material for years to come.
"Can't cover" is the tiny bit of information used to judge Collins  
ghost718 : 5/16/2019 10:30 am : link
Has been since the day they drafted him.No matter how well he played it continues to come up,and now that he's gone? forget it.That's all you're gonna hear.
RE: I like him on the Redskins  
Dnew15 : 5/16/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14445964 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
His big mouth will give us plenty of bulletin board material for years to come.


To be honest - I think this is more the reason for why he wasn't resigned more than his ability on the field.
RE:  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 10:50 am : link
In comment 14445992 ghost718 said:
Quote:
Has been since the day they drafted him.No matter how well he played it continues to come up,and now that he's gone? forget it.That's all you're gonna hear.


“When targeted in space in 2018, opposing receivers caught 33 of 43 passes thrown his way for 397 yards, three touchdowns and no interceptions, resulting in a 127.8 passer rating against, a clear departure from the 2016 (70.1) and 2017 (94.8) seasons. According to NFL Next Gen Stats’ Coverage Success Rate metric, Collins ranked 81st out of 90 defensive backs who were the nearest defender on at least 50 targets, allowing a 71 percent completion rate ...”
- article linked below
Collins / Coverage - ( New Window )
RE: RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
RinR : 5/16/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14445816 GothamGiants said:
Quote:


Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit.


Incredibly overrated? Maybe by the Redskins given the contract they gave him but not on BBI.
RE: RE: RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14446040 RinR said:
Quote:
In comment 14445816 GothamGiants said:


Quote:




Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit.



Incredibly overrated? Maybe by the Redskins given the contract they gave him but not on BBI.


Overrated by Washington, clearly, and pretty much every national media outlet and/or casual fan.

He is awful in man coverage - it is impossible to be a “great” safety and have such a major deficiency.

Again, I liked Collins - but he’s nowhere near as good as some think.

Peppers will do a lot more than “fill Collins’ shoes” ... he’s a better overall safety and much better scheme fit.
Could really care less about your stats  
ghost718 : 5/16/2019 11:03 am : link
This is football,that number 43,that's not the same play 43 times.That's different situations,coverage's,and throws.
Couple of more interesting points on Collins  
BSIMatt : 5/16/2019 11:07 am : link
Quote:


To be fair, Collins did play 59.4% of his snaps from the box last season, which is the highest percentage in any of his four seasons so far. However, the Giants’ defense was in such disarray that it made it hard for anyone to be the best they could be, hence Collins’ lowest-graded season in three years. As a team, the Giants’ defense had a grade of 71.6 last season, ranking 26th in the NFL. For someone who has star potential like Collins, you can’t blame him for looking elsewhere this offseason, but teams need to understand that they can’t just plug him at deep safety and expect him to fly all over the field with range like Earl Thomas. If anything, he’s more of a Kam Chancellor.



Quote:

As a versatile box safety, Collins could also be used more as a pass rusher. One safety who burst onto the scene as a pass-rushing box safety is Derwin James, who was named the PFF defensive rookie of the year in 2018. If Collins was used in pass-rushing as much as Derwin James was, he may have been even more of an impact player for the Giants. In fact, Collins finished with the 10th-best pass-rushing grade (73.7) among safeties in 2016, and the 11th-best pass-rushing grade (72.5) in 2017; both of those seasons also happen to have Collins’ two-highest pass-rush snap percentages of his career. Despite having proved his ability as a pass-rusher, Collins rushed the quarterback on only 4.3% of his snaps last season, which doesn’t even rank in the top-twenty among safeties.



I find that last statistic puzzling, considering that he was playing A)More snaps in box than ever in his career. B)In James Betcher defense which blitzes as much as any defense in the NFL

The one thing I like about Bethea and Peppers is they both can blitz well and also have flexibility to play deep at FS, I think that adds level of unpredictability to the defense especially with the influx of young cover corners that will be joining the defense this season.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/16/2019 11:13 am : link
In comment 14446045 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14446040 RinR said:


Quote:


In comment 14445816 GothamGiants said:


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Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit.



Incredibly overrated? Maybe by the Redskins given the contract they gave him but not on BBI.



Overrated by Washington, clearly, and pretty much every national media outlet and/or casual fan.

He is awful in man coverage - it is impossible to be a “great” safety and have such a major deficiency.

Again, I liked Collins - but he’s nowhere near as good as some think.

Peppers will do a lot more than “fill Collins’ shoes” ... he’s a better overall safety and much better scheme fit.

He would have been fine in a Cam Chancellor centric scheme, where Seattle ran constant cover 3 sky and Cover 1 robbers, but that's not Bettchers D it seems. Not quite the enforcer Cam was though, and Riley isn't exactly Earl Thomas of course.
Illustration of Peppers versatility  
BSIMatt : 5/16/2019 11:16 am : link
Quote:

His performance against the Denver Broncos illustrated his ability to make plays when lined up all over the field.

On Saturday, Peppers lined up at the line of scrimmage as an edge defender on 10 defensive snaps, something he did only 29 times total in 2017. With the additional snaps close to the line of scrimmage came some opportunities to get after the quarterback as a pass rusher, and that is an area that Peppers made an impact. The game-clinching sack late in the game stands out for obvious reasons, but Peppers was a consistent presence in the backfield all game. On his nine pass-rushing snaps, he generated four total pressures, which nearly matches the total of five that he had all last season.



Quote:

And naturally, with all the talk about Peppers playing out of position at free safety, his best play of the game came when lined up deep. On this interception of Keenum at the end of the first half, Peppers did an excellent job of making a break on the deep pass and using his speed to cover a whole lot of ground and get to the football.

While the sort of athleticism needed to make that play was never a question for Peppers, his coverage instincts were. The ability to quickly decipher that throw and break on the ball early is indicative of the step forward that Peppers has taken in Year 2 of his NFL career.


He can lineup all over, is an effective blitzed and has range in coverage due to his speed.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Collins was a great 80s style safety.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/16/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14445960 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14445944 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 14445906 GothamGiants said:


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In comment 14445897 Ten Ton Hammer said:


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In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:


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In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:


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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:


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It's not the 80s.



Short n sweet n absolutely right

Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.



"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.



Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.




These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.

The





Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird




And went home early to the bottom 5 run defenses.



Saints D: 3.0 YPC in playoffs
Patriots D: 3.1 YPC in playoffs
Rams D: 3.4 YPC in playoffs
Chiefs D: 4.2 YPC in playoffs




Bottom 5 run defenses over 16 games that suddenly get hot in the playoffs is a terrible example of anything. And nobody said anything about fantasy football. Quit strawmanning nonsense words.




LC also didn't have R. Sherman ...  
Dnew15 : 5/16/2019 11:34 am : link
B. Maxwell, B. Wagner, KJ Wright, J. Lane or anyone else that could play defense on an NFL level other than JJ and Ogletree.

The real question is K. Chancellor or E. Thomas would have been half as good playing next BW Webb, C. Riley, BJ Goodson and whatever crap they had in the defensive backfield over the better part of the past two seasons.

Let's not even get into who they had rushing the passer during the same time frame.
RE: LC also didn't have R. Sherman ...  
BSIMatt : 5/16/2019 11:53 am : link
In comment 14446099 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
B. Maxwell, B. Wagner, KJ Wright, J. Lane or anyone else that could play defense on an NFL level other than JJ and Ogletree.

The real question is K. Chancellor or E. Thomas would have been half as good playing next BW Webb, C. Riley, BJ Goodson and whatever crap they had in the defensive backfield over the better part of the past two seasons.

Let's not even get into who they had rushing the passer during the same time frame.


I do think there is some truth to this, in Collins best season he was playing alongside teammates who were all playing at a dominant level. If the defense is functioning well, it certainly helps. Same could be applied to Bethea, in 2017 with Betcher he had a career year, playing on a good Cardinals defense, the Cardinals defense regressed significantly in 2018, which I’m sure had an impact on Bethea. When your teammates are effectively doing their jobs it only helps , and allows a player to trust his teammates and not try to compensate, or anticipate mistakes.
The thing I like about this current Safety Tandem  
gmen9892 : 5/16/2019 12:25 pm : link
Is that they seem pretty interchangeable. Both can play the pass and the run. Both can blitz. Both are sure tacklers.
RE: The thing I like about this current Safety Tandem  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14446196 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
Is that they seem pretty interchangeable. Both can play the pass and the run. Both can blitz. Both are sure tacklers.


Good point and it’s a huge component of Bettcher’s defense

Huge upgrade from one dimensional Collins and Curtis “How did we get to this point?” Riley
Now way was Collins close to be worth what Washington is paying  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/16/2019 12:58 pm : link
The man peaked his sophomore year. He's actually declined since then but admittedly that could be due to sweeping changes.

For the $14M per year average salary the Giants could pay for;
Jabril Peppers (minor downgrade at SS): $2.6M per
Antoine Bethea (Upgrade at FS): $3.25M per
Mike Remmers (Upgrade at OT)): $2.5M per

I wonder where I should put the remaining $8.35M after signing 3 solid players with the savings of letting Collins walk.
RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
ColHowPepper : 5/16/2019 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14445806 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
safety to play besides.
You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.
If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.
Exactly this. That's not to say this would have entirely offset LC's shortcomings in coverage, but they would have been significantly less exposed.
RE: Now way was Collins close to be worth what Washington is paying  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/16/2019 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14446255 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:

I wonder where I should put the remaining $8.35M after signing 3 solid players with the savings of letting Collins walk.

Sorry I meant remaining $5.65M.
RE: RE: We never gave him a complimentary  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 3:43 pm : link
In comment 14446261 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
In comment 14445806 BigBlueDownTheShore said:


Quote:


safety to play besides.
You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.
If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.

Exactly this. That's not to say this would have entirely offset LC's shortcomings in coverage, but they would have been significantly less exposed.


Great safeties don't need other players to help them hide from being exposed.
RE: Now way was Collins close to be worth what Washington is paying  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14446255 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
The man peaked his sophomore year. He's actually declined since then but admittedly that could be due to sweeping changes.

For the $14M per year average salary the Giants could pay for;
Jabril Peppers (minor downgrade at SS): $2.6M per
Antoine Bethea (Upgrade at FS): $3.25M per
Mike Remmers (Upgrade at OT)): $2.5M per

I wonder where I should put the remaining $8.35M after signing 3 solid players with the savings of letting Collins walk.


Peppers is not a downgrade, at all ... but this point is still great in terms of roster flexibility
RE: RE: Now way was Collins close to be worth what Washington is paying  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/16/2019 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14446482 GothamGiants said:
Quote:

Peppers is not a downgrade, at all ... but this point is still great in terms of roster flexibility

Honestly, I agree with you on that but I gave in to what I think is the general consensus. I believe Peppers has more to offer than Collins. I remember them asking Collins to play some LB to which he said no. Peppers is going to fill that moneybacker role that Betcher wants and I love the flexibility there.

I would like to update my previous because I didn't have much time at work to research while on break. This time I'll leave the upgrade/downgrade of each player to everyone else.

For the $14M per year average salary that Washington is paying for Collins:
Jabril Peppers: $2.6M per
Antoine Bethea: $3.25M per
Mike Remmers: $2.5M per
Markus Golden: $3.75 per

What's left? $1.95M
What could that go towards? One of the draft picks?

So, the absolute worst way to look at it is 1 great SS in Collins for 4 good players all at major positions of need. I actually look at it as 1 good SS in Collins for 1 good SS in Peppers with a lot of potential, 1 upgrade at FS in Bethea, 1 upgrade at RT in Remmers, and 1 flyer on a guy who was very good until an ACL tear 2 years ago in Golden.
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