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He hasn’t grabbed the headlines like Jamal Adams, but Peppers was a productive defensive chess piece in his own right. His 12 pressures were the third-most among safeties last year, and his 23 coverage stops ranked 18th – and Peppers is only still getting familiar with the position. Somewhat ironically, the closest corollary to Peppers at the position is actually the guy he’s replacing. Landon Collins spent over half his snaps as a rookie at deep safety and got even more exposed as the lowest-graded safety in the NFL. In Year 2, Collins shifted to a box role, and the natural playmaking ability took over as he led the position in stops. In 2018 though, it was Peppers who actually graded out higher for PFF. |
Never understood why people liked him so much
Never understood why people liked him so much
2016. He was almost playing at a defensive MVP level.
Only 19 safeties rushed the passer at least 25 times in 2018, but Arizona Cardinals veteran safety Antoine Bethea took the cake among the slew in terms of pass-rush productivity with his position-high 17.9 mark. He recorded 12 total pressures (six hurries, three hits, three sacks) across his 42 pass-rush snaps this past season.
Good to see Bethea highlighted for his play in 2018.
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AWFUL against the pass.
Never understood why people liked him so much
2016. He was almost playing at a defensive MVP level.
I wouldn't deny that, but I never thought he got close to that level again. Maybe "awful" was a bit strong but his coverage skill were not good at all.
I believe Peppers could be a better all round safety. Not as good against the run but better in coverage
There is a reason he had 3 pro bowls and was all-pro in 2016.
I have not seen Peppers play yet, so have no opinion on his level of play. But I think a lot of the anti-Collins sentiment is generated by his having gone to REdskins and run his mouth. It has little basis in what the man did on the field.
There is a reason he had 3 pro bowls and was all-pro in 2016.
I have not seen Peppers play yet, so have no opinion on his level of play. But I think a lot of the anti-Collins sentiment is generated by his having gone to REdskins and run his mouth. It has little basis in what the man did on the field.
Idk I think plenty on here were pointing out Collins' coverage deficiencies for a while.
There is a reason Redskins paid him 85 million. When your division opponent is willing to pay that much, it says something. They faced him twice a year. They know how good he is.
Never understood why people liked him so much
Because otherwise he was terrific. But his inability to deal with the pass, to begin with and still, was disqualifying.
There is a reason Redskins paid him 85 million. When your division opponent is willing to pay that much, it says something. They faced him twice a year. They know how good he is.
Ehh the Redskins front office's opinion of players may not be the best guide to how good they are. I'm certainly not looking forward to playing him, but he's got his warts.
I couldn't care less about his pressure stats.
It’s been quite some time since Antione Bethea ran his 4.39 40-yard dash at the 2006 NFL Scouting Combine, and the now 34-year-old vet has surely lost a step (or two) since then, but he’s still finding a way to get the job done.
Bethea played an impressive 1,111 defensive snaps for the Arizona Cardinals this past season and earned an even more impressive 86.4 overall grade in the year prior. In his career-best season (87.7 overall grade in 2007), Bethea allowed just a 50.2 passer rating in coverage, logging four picks and three pass breakups in the process.
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AWFUL against the pass.
Never understood why people liked him so much
2016. He was almost playing at a defensive MVP level.
But he hasn't played at that level since. I also wonder if he had some Stevie Brown INTs and if his coverage wasn't as good as many remember. Kind of like the perception of Ogletree, particularly in coverage, changed substantially after his 2 INT game last season.
- Collins had 5 INTs in 2016. Just 2 since then.
- Collins had 78 return yards (INTs/FRs) with a TD in 2016. Just 54 return yards the rest of his career.
- Collins had 4 sacks in 2016. ZERO sacks the rest of his career.
- Collins had 5 QBHits in 2016. He has 5 total for the rest of his career.
- Collins had 9 TFLs in 2016. He has just 8 since then.
The last 3 are a little surprising given his still strong, and largely deserved, reputation as an in-the-box safety. He looked like he was on a Troy Polamalu trajectory that season, making impact plays (TFLs, sacks, QBHits) all over the field and living in the opposition backfield. I don't know what's changed since 2016 (injuries, surrounding talent - particularly in 2018, scheme), but there's no question he's making few plays behind the LOS.
Bethea is the FS. Peppers is indeed the SS and is best in-the-box like Collins, though at least according to some sources, Peppers was roughly average in coverage last year and made significant strides when forced to be the deep safety.
He was made for a guy like Bettcher
I loved Collins, but he was beyond overrated on here. He will not be a “loss”, at all - Peppers is a much better athlete and much better scheme fit
Peppers is a much better coverage safety. However,
He can do this too - ( New Window )
Collins snap breakdown in 2018:
468 box snaps
115 covering slot
109 playing FS
70.4 overall grade.
Peppers lined up along the line of scrimmage or in the box on 329 snaps, as a slot or wide corner on 155 snaps, and as a deep safety on only 281. This time around though, he wasn’t a liability when lined up deep. Peppers coverage grade jumped from 61.7 to 77.3.
77.6 overall grade for Peppers in 2018.
Peppers is definitely has better range/athleticism than Collins.
Also, Bethea seems pretty interchangeable with Peppers as he has experience playing both FS and up close to the line and is a good tackler.
You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.
If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.
You can see how good he could be as he was a defensive MVP candidate.
If we ever had a competent safety next to him, I don't think people would be so down on him.
Safeties that are actually great don’t need complementary safeties to cover up their weaknesses
Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit. I liked him, but that contract Washington gave him was absurd - and I look forward to exploiting him in coverage twice a year.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
With that type of player you can find a way to exploit the plus talent or you can try and fit them into the convention of your scheme.
I don't have a lot of opinion on it -- but I won't be shocked if both Collins and Peppers have huge years -- they are better fits for the their respective new teams.
He made it in 2017 and 2018 because of his 2016 work. He was in no shape or form a top Safety the past two seasons.
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Never understood why people liked him so much
It is comments like this which support the player's belief that fans dont know WTF they are talking about.
Go back and look at what this defense was the season before we drafted Collins.. We were getting RUN OVER. We could not stop the run... period. Collins is a strong safety, not a free safety. At that position, you do want the guy to be able to cover (I agree) but his primary responsibility is to support the run.
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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
Peppers is good against the run as well ... and yes, running the ball and stopping the run is still very important - despite the “passing league” cliche’d BS
Peppers is much better in coverage, and a good blitzed/run defender ...
(Feel free to look up the run offense/defense statistics for the playoff/SB teams over the years, even recently, you’ll be surprised)
I’ve linked them below ... Spoiler: both SB teams ranked top 5 in rushing, and both of their QBs actually had more INTs than TDs in the playoffs
2017 SB Champs : #1 run defense, #3 run offense
Numbers - ( New Window )
He made it in 2017 and 2018 because of his 2016 work. He was in no shape or form a top Safety the past two seasons.
I instantly stop reading any “argument” featuring the pro bowl ... it’s a popularity content , nothing more
How is Peppers a much better scheme fit? Exhibit A. Thank you for sharing.
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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.
Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.
These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.
The
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In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.
Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.
These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.
The
Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird
70% of the top 10 run offenses, playoffs
80% of the top 10 run defenses, playoffs
More fun facts:
Brady, 2 TD 3 INT in playoffs
Goff, 1 TD, 2 INT in playoffs
Yes, the 2 SB QBs combined for a whopping 3 TDs in 6 games.
More fun facts:
Rams Defense: 3.4 YPC allowed in playoffs
Patriots Defense: 3.1 YPC allowed in playoffs
It’s almost like running the ball and run defense still matter.
Fun with numbers - ( New Window )
JB last year and Spags the year before asked Collins to do more than he is capable of doing. Both DCs were forced to scheme around corners and LB that were not NFL caliber players.
In 2016 the Giants had THREE legit NFL starters playing CB - JJ, DRC and Eli Apple. They also had J. Castillas and K. Robinson who had at least competent coverage skills as LBs.
Having said all that, he's still not as bad in coverage as everyone on this board seems to think - he got torched by KIttle and Ertz (lots of good CB/LB/S did - they are both All-Pro caliber players) - but look back at the game logs - he wasn't that bad against everyone else.
I've no problems with people saying that Peppers might be better - he might be. But LC is a damn good player and I'm not looking forward to seeing him twice a year as part of that Redskins defense that is going to be sneaky good moving forward.
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In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:
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In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.
Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.
These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.
The
Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird
And went home early to the bottom 5 run defenses.
He was made for a guy like Bettcher
I loved Collins, but he was beyond overrated on here. He will not be a “loss”, at all - Peppers is a much better athlete and much better scheme fit
Yup, totally agree. Outside of 2016, Collins was, at best, a neutral player. Peps is the biggest addition this off season and he’s going to make the team much better. He’s a kick returner too. Huge upgrade on the field and off the field. Very excited for this Giant.
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In comment 14445897 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14445843 UberAlias said:
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In comment 14445817 GothamGiants said:
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In comment 14445808 FStubbs said:
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It's not the 80s.
Short n sweet n absolutely right
Tell that to the coaching staff and GM. It starts with running the ball and stopping the run, is't that the mantra we keep hearing? BBI like to talk out of both sides of its mouth.
"run the ball, stop the run" is press conference sound bytes. Yes it matters some. No it's not everything. This is a passing league.
Those were the worst rushing defenses in the league by yards allowed per attempt. And yet the Rams and Patriots played in the Superbowl. The Chiefs got to their conference title game.
These were the best run defenses in football by the same measure.
The
Seems like the top 6 run defenses all made the playoffs ... weird
And went home early to the bottom 5 run defenses.
Saints D: 3.0 YPC in playoffs
Patriots D: 3.1 YPC in playoffs
Rams D: 3.4 YPC in playoffs
Chiefs D: 4.2 YPC in playoffs
Every team allowed a YPC that would’ve been top 10 in the league over a full season.
3/4 teams would’ve been the best YPC allowed in the league.
AFC Championship Game: Mahomes + Brady = 5 combined playoff TDs
NFC Championship Game: Brees + Goff = 5 combined playoff TDs
Apply your favorite stat to actual playoff production and ... it only further proves my point. We can drool over fantasy points and the almighty “franchise QB” as much as we want ... when you run the ball, and stop the run, you have a great chance to win games.
And now, back to Jabrill Peppers.
To be honest - I think this is more the reason for why he wasn't resigned more than his ability on the field.
“When targeted in space in 2018, opposing receivers caught 33 of 43 passes thrown his way for 397 yards, three touchdowns and no interceptions, resulting in a 127.8 passer rating against, a clear departure from the 2016 (70.1) and 2017 (94.8) seasons. According to NFL Next Gen Stats’ Coverage Success Rate metric, Collins ranked 81st out of 90 defensive backs who were the nearest defender on at least 50 targets, allowing a 71 percent completion rate ...”
- article linked below
Collins / Coverage - ( New Window )
Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit.
Incredibly overrated? Maybe by the Redskins given the contract they gave him but not on BBI.
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Collins is a good player, incredibly overrated, and a poor scheme fit.
Incredibly overrated? Maybe by the Redskins given the contract they gave him but not on BBI.
Overrated by Washington, clearly, and pretty much every national media outlet and/or casual fan.
He is awful in man coverage - it is impossible to be a “great” safety and have such a major deficiency.
Again, I liked Collins - but he’s nowhere near as good as some think.
Peppers will do a lot more than “fill Collins’ shoes” ... he’s a better overall safety and much better scheme fit.
To be fair, Collins did play 59.4% of his snaps from the box last season, which is the highest percentage in any of his four seasons so far. However, the Giants’ defense was in such disarray that it made it hard for anyone to be the best they could be, hence Collins’ lowest-graded season in three years. As a team, the Giants’ defense had a grade of 71.6 last season, ranking 26th in the NFL. For someone who has star potential like Collins, you can’t blame him for looking elsewhere this offseason, but teams need to understand that they can’t just plug him at deep safety and expect him to fly all over the field with range like Earl Thomas. If anything, he’s more of a Kam Chancellor.
As a versatile box safety, Collins could also be used more as a pass rusher. One safety who burst onto the scene as a pass-rushing box safety is Derwin James, who was named the PFF defensive rookie of the year in 2018. If Collins was used in pass-rushing as much as Derwin James was, he may have been even more of an impact player for the Giants. In fact, Collins finished with the 10th-best pass-rushing grade (73.7) among safeties in 2016, and the 11th-best pass-rushing grade (72.5) in 2017; both of those seasons also happen to have Collins’ two-highest pass-rush snap percentages of his career. Despite having proved his ability as a pass-rusher, Collins rushed the quarterback on only 4.3% of his snaps last season, which doesn’t even rank in the top-twenty among safeties.
I find that last statistic puzzling, considering that he was playing A)More snaps in box than ever in his career. B)In James Betcher defense which blitzes as much as any defense in the NFL
The one thing I like about Bethea and Peppers is they both can blitz well and also have flexibility to play deep at FS, I think that adds level of unpredictability to the defense especially with the influx of young cover corners that will be joining the defense this season.