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A potential Kyle Rudolph trade would make some sense

Eric from BBI : Admin : 5/16/2019 10:26 am
Ian Rapoport
& #8207;Verified account @RapSheet
9m9 minutes ago

#Vikings TE Kyle Rudolph was asked about possibly taking a paycut: No I wont, I am too young for that. He does want to stay in Minnesota, though. More here:


Art Stapleton
& #8207;Verified account @art_stapleton
2m2 minutes ago

Art Stapleton Retweeted ProFootballTalk

It's unlikely, but if Giants wanted to swap Kyle Rudolph in for Rhett Ellison, the net salary cap hit for Rudolph would be $4.375 million.

That would be in a trade.

If Rudolph released, they'd be working from clean slate.

Just mentioning b/c Shumur-Rudolph relationship strong
Can Kyle Rudolph block?  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 10:29 am : link
It would be hard to have 2 light blocking TEs on the roster. At minumum 1 needs to be a plus blocker especially for a team trying to be a run first/PA offense with SB.
Love  
mdthedream : 5/16/2019 10:30 am : link
to have him on this team.
Ellison is a better blocker, but Rudolph is a much better receiver.  
Klaatu : 5/16/2019 10:33 am : link
I think they're about the same age, 29, 30 or so.
Rudolph would be a nice upgrade opposite Engram as a receiving threat  
GiantBlue : 5/16/2019 10:34 am : link
But I figure DG is waiting for the inevitable cut rather than exploring a trade as he can sign him to a more friendly cap deal.

Rudolph's main issue has always been injuries.  
robbieballs2003 : 5/16/2019 10:38 am : link
Outside of that he is a well rounded TE.
Why would you swap him for Ellison?  
mittenedman : 5/16/2019 10:40 am : link
Right now Engram is a bit player, the 1st round pick is a sunk cost and he should be used in a manner best for the team.

Ellison is best used as a #2 flex/blocking TE who can line up at FB, in-line or H-back and be a boon to the run game.

Imagine coming out in a base 2 TE offense with this smashmouth OLine + 2 big slobberknockers at TE like Rudolph and Ellison? Then you can mix Engram in as you see fit.

That was always the think with the Cowboys recently - they didn't just have the great run blocking OLine - they had a crew of blocking TE's too.

Rudolph is really the perfect old school 2-way TE an old school offense like the Giants needs.
RE: Rudolph's main issue has always been injuries.  
Klaatu : 5/16/2019 10:43 am : link
In comment 14446006 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Outside of that he is a well rounded TE.


Earlier on, maybe, but he hasn't missed a game in the last four years.
RE: Why would you swap him for Ellison?  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14446009 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Right now Engram is a bit player, the 1st round pick is a sunk cost and he should be used in a manner best for the team.

Ellison is best used as a #2 flex/blocking TE who can line up at FB, in-line or H-back and be a boon to the run game.

Imagine coming out in a base 2 TE offense with this smashmouth OLine + 2 big slobberknockers at TE like Rudolph and Ellison? Then you can mix Engram in as you see fit.

That was always the think with the Cowboys recently - they didn't just have the great run blocking OLine - they had a crew of blocking TE's too.

Rudolph is really the perfect old school 2-way TE an old school offense like the Giants needs.


Bit player? He is much more than that and his numbers took a big uptick with OBJ out.
Rudolph is younger than Ellison  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 10:53 am : link
And much better overall player ... for a 5th or lower Id get Rudolph and cut Ellison instantly
13 personnel would create a lot of mismatches  
Mattman : 5/16/2019 11:02 am : link
Especially with the ability to split ee saquon or Rudolph out
Xo mismatches of 13 personnel - ( New Window )
PFF Grades  
Randy_Lahey : 5/16/2019 11:06 am : link
PFF has Rudolph at 64.1 Rating overall with a bad 53.5 Run Block grade. As a comparison Rhett Ellison was 65.1 Overall and 71.1 Run Block.

Engram with a 76.4 Overall, 60.6 Run Block.
Rudolph  
JonC : 5/16/2019 11:08 am : link
and Peppers would be too big upside adds.
To  
mittenedman : 5/16/2019 11:13 am : link
Giantz_comeback:

Yes, bit player for the offense we should be running. I don't care how good the H-back is - we shouldn't be using TE's who aren't good run blockers. He's the equivalent of a shiny object that distracts you from the road.

I have no doubt you could force feed Engram 100 catches a year. And the team would be 4-12. He just does not fit the vision of the offense moving forward. I realize probably no one agrees but I believe that 100%. And judging from the comments coming out from the players, they are being told there is a style of team being built, and with Barkley and the big OLs coming in, it isn't hard to see what it is.
I don't think it makes sense for Minny  
ZogZerg : 5/16/2019 11:13 am : link
I think they keep him this year and trade/cut next year.
RE: 13 personnel would create a lot of mismatches  
mittenedman : 5/16/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14446049 Mattman said:
Quote:
Especially with the ability to split ee saquon or Rudolph out Xo mismatches of 13 personnel - ( New Window )


Also agree with this Mattman. Since Engram appears to be on the team this year, this would be the way to go. 2 big blocking TE's and then using Engram as a package player.
RE: PFF Grades  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14446056 Randy_Lahey said:
Quote:
PFF has Rudolph at 64.1 Rating overall with a bad 53.5 Run Block grade. As a comparison Rhett Ellison was 65.1 Overall and 71.1 Run Block.

Engram with a 76.4 Overall, 60.6 Run Block.


If those PFF numbers are an accurate indicator of his blocking ability that is not encouraging. You want 2 TEs on this team that are subpar blockers for a team that will emphasize the run game?

Don't see it.
RE: To  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 11:18 am : link
In comment 14446065 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Giantz_comeback:

Yes, bit player for the offense we should be running. I don't care how good the H-back is - we shouldn't be using TE's who aren't good run blockers. He's the equivalent of a shiny object that distracts you from the road.

I have no doubt you could force feed Engram 100 catches a year. And the team would be 4-12. He just does not fit the vision of the offense moving forward. I realize probably no one agrees but I believe that 100%. And judging from the comments coming out from the players, they are being told there is a style of team being built, and with Barkley and the big OLs coming in, it isn't hard to see what it is.


If the argument is Engram isn't a great blocker , I agree but is Rudolph much better? If he is, I have no issue with it.

Ellison has not blocked well..  
90.Cal : 5/16/2019 11:18 am : link
That's what he was brought in to do and he has underwhelmed in my book. He was touted as one of the very best run blocking TE's in the game unless I'm reaching but that's what I recall when he was a F/A. He has not been 'awful' at blocking but he hasn't been 'good' and IDK/IDC what PFF is looking at. I'd move him for Rudolph in a flash and I bet Shurmur would too. Do it.
Great, I Want A Guy  
wonderback : 5/16/2019 11:20 am : link
Who blocks worse than Ellison. No thanks!!!
RE: Can Kyle Rudolph block?  
TommyWiseau : 5/16/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14445988 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
It would be hard to have 2 light blocking TEs on the roster. At minumum 1 needs to be a plus blocker especially for a team trying to be a run first/PA offense with SB.


No he cannot, he is below average at blocking but a damn good reciever
RE: RE: Can Kyle Rudolph block?  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14446101 TommyWiseau said:
Quote:
In comment 14445988 Giantz_comeback said:


Quote:


It would be hard to have 2 light blocking TEs on the roster. At minumum 1 needs to be a plus blocker especially for a team trying to be a run first/PA offense with SB.



No he cannot, he is below average at blocking but a damn good reciever


Has Kyle Rudolph had any year or years he was a plus blocker?

If he has had a few years as a plus blocker it says he has the potential. If not, he's been in the league to long to expect a sudden uptick in blocking.
Why sell Evan Engram short?  
Klaatu : 5/16/2019 11:57 am : link
Even if the Giants are building their offense around Saquon Barkley, it's not 1990 anymore. They're still going to have to move the ball through the air, and Engram, the fastest TE in the league, adds a dimension that no other TE on the team does. I'd expect my OC to figure out how to get him the ball early and often (even if it's on the occasional end-around, as we saw a few times last year). On a team looking for playmakers, well, they've got one in Engram. You don't keep a weapon like that in your holster.

Is he a great in-line blocker? Nope. No one's ever going to confuse him with Howard Cross. But so what? Is Zach Ertz? Here's an article from a Philly guy noting PFF's comparison of both players. Yeah, I know, PFF and all that. Still, I think it's worth mentioning.

My guess is that a lot of the disdain for Engram is due to his draft status, and you can make a case that the Giants should have drafted, say, Ryan Ramczyk instead of Engram, but they didn't. What's done is done. Get over it. Engram is a Giant. He's still only 24. They should make the most of him while they still have him.
RE: Why sell Evan Engram short?  
Giantz_comeback : 5/16/2019 12:02 pm : link
In comment 14446143 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Even if the Giants are building their offense around Saquon Barkley, it's not 1990 anymore. They're still going to have to move the ball through the air, and Engram, the fastest TE in the league, adds a dimension that no other TE on the team does. I'd expect my OC to figure out how to get him the ball early and often (even if it's on the occasional end-around, as we saw a few times last year). On a team looking for playmakers, well, they've got one in Engram. You don't keep a weapon like that in your holster.

Is he a great in-line blocker? Nope. No one's ever going to confuse him with Howard Cross. But so what? Is Zach Ertz? Here's an article from a Philly guy noting PFF's comparison of both players. Yeah, I know, PFF and all that. Still, I think it's worth mentioning.

My guess is that a lot of the disdain for Engram is due to his draft status, and you can make a case that the Giants should have drafted, say, Ryan Ramczyk instead of Engram, but they didn't. What's done is done. Get over it. Engram is a Giant. He's still only 24. They should make the most of him while they still have him.


Engram if utilized properly is a heck of a weapon. With OBJ out and Shurmur utilizing him more he averaged 80yards a game. Problem is he'll never be a great blocker therefore your 2nd TE really needs to be.

Its why this Rudolph stuff doesn't make sense to me unless he is a better blocker than Evan is.
...  
GothamGiants : 5/16/2019 12:08 pm : link
It amazes me how underrated and unappreciated Engram is by some fans

He should be the focal point of this passing game
RE: Rudolph would be a nice upgrade opposite Engram as a receiving threat  
RobCarpenter : 5/16/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14446000 GiantBlue said:
Quote:
But I figure DG is waiting for the inevitable cut rather than exploring a trade as he can sign him to a more friendly cap deal.


This. Don't see them trading for Rudolph if there is a possibility of Rudolph being cut.

On the blocking TE issue - having a competent RT should alleviate some of the need for a TE who blocks first and catches passes second.
I am seeing...  
Chris in Philly : 5/16/2019 12:19 pm : link
Rudolph ending up on the Pats. He'd be a great fit for them.
RE: Why would you swap him for Ellison?  
Blue21 : 5/16/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14446009 mittenedman said:
Quote:
Right now Engram is a bit player, the 1st round pick is a sunk cost and he should be used in a manner best for the team.

Ellison is best used as a #2 flex/blocking TE who can line up at FB, in-line or H-back and be a boon to the run game.

Imagine coming out in a base 2 TE offense with this smashmouth OLine + 2 big slobberknockers at TE like Rudolph and Ellison? Then you can mix Engram in as you see fit.

That was always the think with the Cowboys recently - they didn't just have the great run blocking OLine - they had a crew of blocking TE's too.

Rudolph is really the perfect old school 2-way TE an old school offense like the Giants needs.


This would be unbelievable. My guess is the Patriots would be all over him. I'm surprised it hasn't happened already.
If you want a dominant blocking TE, Rudolph is not your guy.  
Klaatu : 5/16/2019 12:29 pm : link
However, there will be a ton of TE's hitting the open market next year. Maybe we'll buy one?
Can't we just teach  
Chris in San Diego : 5/16/2019 12:43 pm : link
Engram to block? He's a big elite dude
No one is saying KR  
mittenedman : 5/16/2019 12:44 pm : link
is dominant. You just dont have to compromise your scheme with him & Rhett. It can be power or zone run to either side with either TE able to execute the full gamut of responsibilities.
I think that he has 3-4 years left  
Jay on the Island : 5/16/2019 12:45 pm : link
Normally I would pass on bringing a guy like this in but with the addition of Daniel Jones it would certainly help him to have a safety net like Rudolph at TE. It would also allow Engram to run more routes rather than stay in line and block. Rudolph would give Eli and Jones another target in the passing game to help alleviate the loss of Beckham.

The Vikings let Ellison go  
HomerJones45 : 5/16/2019 1:11 pm : link
after trying to convert him to fullback because he was such a talent as a tight end. Why on earth would they trade a two-way tight end for a slug like Ellison who got the contract he did because he got to deal with Harpo, Chico and Zeppo in the FO and head coach positions.

But why stop there? Let's see if the Vikings will trade us Diggs for Latimer.

Do IT!!!  
rasbutant : 5/16/2019 1:22 pm : link
Make it so.


Link...Eli to Rudolph...wait for the 4th one....
Link - ( New Window )
Going to have to out bid the Patriots  
rasbutant : 5/16/2019 1:24 pm : link
I would guess.
RE: Can't we just teach  
BillT : 5/16/2019 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14446228 Chris in San Diego said:
Quote:
Engram to block? He's a big elite dude

Actually, he isnt. Hes 63 240 which makes him 2 inches shorter and 10/20 lbs lighter than most TEs in the league. Hell never be a good blocker he doesnt have size. Hes a tweener.
Start on the premise that it would be....  
MOOPS : 5/16/2019 1:34 pm : link
a one year rental. Rudolph is in the last year of his contract.
Ellison has two years left but better than 50/50 he's not back for 2020 anyway.
So a trade for a year? I do it if I'm able to arranged other contracts to fit the dollar difference in. Don't want to get too close to the cap.
Getting Rudolph would be a plus. Losing Ellison, would anybody really notice?
RE: Start on the premise that it would be....  
rasbutant : 5/16/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14446311 MOOPS said:
Quote:
a one year rental. Rudolph is in the last year of his contract.
Ellison has two years left but better than 50/50 he's not back for 2020 anyway.
So a trade for a year? I do it if I'm able to arranged other contracts to fit the dollar difference in. Don't want to get too close to the cap.
Getting Rudolph would be a plus. Losing Ellison, would anybody really notice?


Doesn't really make sense for 1yr. His contract is 7+ mil with no G. If you trade for him you extend him dropping the 2019 hit to the min possible and put the money into future years. Ellison doesn't have to go anywhere to make this happen, though it can be debated if he should.
Pass  
pjcas18 : 5/16/2019 1:43 pm : link
unless he's let go and signs cheaply, but the friction in MIN is allegedly because he wants a contract.

he turns 30 years old during the season, and after a breakout 2016 seems like he's being phased out of that offense.

He's on the final year of his contract and his a 7+M cap number.

I would not trade any assets of value for him.

and I'm not sure he's a great blocker. His pass blocking has shown various results, some good, some bad, but run blocking no bueno.





RE: Why sell Evan Engram short?  
lax counsel : 5/16/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14446143 Klaatu said:
Quote:
Even if the Giants are building their offense around Saquon Barkley, it's not 1990 anymore. They're still going to have to move the ball through the air, and Engram, the fastest TE in the league, adds a dimension that no other TE on the team does. I'd expect my OC to figure out how to get him the ball early and often (even if it's on the occasional end-around, as we saw a few times last year). On a team looking for playmakers, well, they've got one in Engram. You don't keep a weapon like that in your holster.

Is he a great in-line blocker? Nope. No one's ever going to confuse him with Howard Cross. But so what? Is Zach Ertz? Here's an article from a Philly guy noting PFF's comparison of both players. Yeah, I know, PFF and all that. Still, I think it's worth mentioning.

My guess is that a lot of the disdain for Engram is due to his draft status, and you can make a case that the Giants should have drafted, say, Ryan Ramczyk instead of Engram, but they didn't. What's done is done. Get over it. Engram is a Giant. He's still only 24. They should make the most of him while they still have him.


Agreed, although I'd add the Giants should be building their offense around Jones if they value him as a true franchise QB. Barkley should be a component of that construction, not the centerpiece (no running back should).
RE: Start on the premise that it would be....  
Diver_Down : 5/16/2019 2:10 pm : link
In comment 14446311 MOOPS said:
Quote:
a one year rental. Rudolph is in the last year of his contract.
Ellison has two years left but better than 50/50 he's not back for 2020 anyway.
So a trade for a year? I do it if I'm able to arranged other contracts to fit the dollar difference in. Don't want to get too close to the cap.
Getting Rudolph would be a plus. Losing Ellison, would anybody really notice?


Even a 1 year rental where Kyle signs elsewhere would net a comp pick. The Pats often will trade a late round pick for a player on the last year and will net a better return on the comp pick as they don't offset the players they lose in FA by signing others. Minny is in a tough spot as Kyle said he isn't taking a pay cut. They have had to renegotiate contracts with other players so they had the cap room to sign draft picks. They are up against the wall. Their choice is to release or trade Kyle. They could opt to pay $2M of Kyle's salary to facilitate a trade as getting a pick in return along with some relief on the cap is better than nothing. In such a scenario, Minn. pays $2M and the we would pay the $5.275M for this year while sending a 6th round pick. We could then release Ellison for $3.25M in cap savings. In other words, we could acquire Kyle for a 6th and have a net expense in salary of $2M.
Paying an extra $4.35 Million to your second tight end  
WillieYoung : 5/16/2019 2:56 pm : link
and weaken your blocking is what passes for brains on this site. Even Gettleman is not that stupid.
Rudolph is a terrific TE  
JonC : 5/16/2019 3:01 pm : link
and not a poor blocker at all, plus the strengthened OL shold take some blocking pressure off the TE(s). EE would do well to follow KR's lead.

Ain't rocket science, you just need to understand the quality of player KR is.
I don't see why  
MM_in_NYC : 5/16/2019 5:30 pm : link
a guy with 1 year remaining on deal and will decrease our roll-over cap is appealing for us. Plus, he can't rush the passer.
I would do the trade  
Bluesbreaker : 5/16/2019 8:43 pm : link
Rudolf would fit better IMO but agree with the cap issue
as well . He will put up much better numbers .
Both Engram and Ellison seem to embody the extremes of an ideal  
GeofromNJ : 5/19/2019 8:17 am : link
tight end. One can run routes and catch, the other can block, but neither can do both. If I were the Giants, I would use Engram as a receiver and get a legitimate TE, one who can block and run routes and receive. I never understood this H back concept. When as it ever gained yards or generated points?
Rumors  
bc4life : 5/21/2019 1:00 pm : link
re: Patriots and Rudolph
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