the ledge
Cant win a series outside of playing the worst team in baseball
Conforto Concussion
McNeil abdominal tightness
Gio Gonzalez fail
Mickey Callaway
Brodie Van Stupid
And now garbage Keon Broxton complaining about playing time of all delusional things
Its just tiring being a Mets fan. If it wasnt for 1986 and the 80s baseball era in general, then I probably would have been a Yankees fan.
This team can never get out of its own way. I wish I could go back in time and make sure Doubleday kept control of the team.
And yeah my parents were a split of Yankees and Mets but the rest of close family all Mets so I guess that won out. And it was the one era in baseball where the Mets ruled and Yankees kinda stunk
And Doubleday, boy if we could have gone back and had almost anyone else own the team (minus Dolan and some others). Or a few years ago when they ALMOST sold the team to whatever crap group.
I don't understand why it didn't work!!
I'm very concerned about the starting pitching depth; yeah, Gio was a fail. We may well see Kay in Queens before September.
Broxton and Frazier have to go, but I think they will, soon. We'll see Gomez for Broxton and some day, maybe, Lowrie for Frazier, but I don't think BVW is going to be too patient with Frazier, whom he didn't sign in the first place.
Cano, well, we'll see. I never liked that acquisition because I want McNeil playing every day at 2nd. But Diaz was the real target in that trade, and I like him as the closer.
Familia, meh. He's half arsonist.
It's a long season. There's a lot of time for ups and downs. We're getting past the "small sample size" phase so they will need to start adjusting, especially if they're going to be "merit-based," as BVW says.
Not signing gio a couple weeks ago is frankly either fireable or a sign they are broke and cant afford
I'm very concerned about the starting pitching depth; yeah, Gio was a fail. We may well see Kay in Queens before September.
Broxton and Frazier have to go, but I think they will, soon. We'll see Gomez for Broxton and some day, maybe, Lowrie for Frazier, but I don't think BVW is going to be too patient with Frazier, whom he didn't sign in the first place.
Cano, well, we'll see. I never liked that acquisition because I want McNeil playing every day at 2nd. But Diaz was the real target in that trade, and I like him as the closer.
Familia, meh. He's half arsonist.
It's a long season. There's a lot of time for ups and downs. We're getting past the "small sample size" phase so they will need to start adjusting, especially if they're going to be "merit-based," as BVW says.
Even if you like Diaz as a closer, if Cano is a lost cause, than that is a bad trade. You could have just signed Kimbrel and you wouldn't have had to take back a broken down very expensive player who is signed through 2023. That was the huge risk in getting Diaz. You had to take back Cano and if Cano finally looked old it would be a disaster cause you can't hide him at DH.
The Mets were hoping to at least get two more 2017 level Cano years out of him. The nightmare is him falling apart this year. Hopefully he bounces back in the second half as he did in previous years. But as you get older that is much harder to do. Diaz will be arbitration eligible after this year and will get a huge pay raise as he deserves so he isn't going to be cheap anymore. That is another reason the Mariners were open to moving him.
Cano will likely have a great week here and there throughout the season, but it aint because the sun is shining a little brighter. Im pretty confident that we arent going to get anything close to good Cano for the next five years. This is a 36 year old, recent PED user, known lazy player, on the back half of his last contract. Its a blueprint for everything a GM should avoid. But hey, we got a relief pitcher out of it...soooo, awesome.
Cano fits nicely on the team with the 2nd best NL offensive hitter in 2018 Brandon Nimmo. You know...Yelich 2.0.
And the cold weather thing is almost more a Mets fail. I vividly remember Cespedes and company wearing ski masks and shit looking like it was the tundra of the 1980s Serbia out there during the World Series and not hitting a lick.
God toughen up your players a bit, its NY. Or scout those who want and can play in cold weather.
Baseball has been around since the 1800ks in the north. Why is it only the Mets seem to suck in cold weather?
Gomez is coming up, Broxton needs to be cut (especially after the comments he made). Frazier needs to not start another game until he actually does something to earn it.
They need to find a way to add to the pitching staff and they need to not give up any more prospects from their system. Keuchel or Kimbrel once the draft pick goes away is a hailmary that they almost have to go for.
Cano and Callaway are 2 train wrecks in slow motion. No easy answers there. Welcome to the Mets Brodie!
That's not bad, and should've been a time to capitilize. We're lucky that the NL East has turned out to be overrated. Season isn't over yet, but we're treading water.
We're going to run out of games vs the Marlins to beat up on soon. The hope is that the team can hang around .500 long enough and "get hot."
The core problem of this org will always be the wilpons. They have proven to be awful evaluators in terms of their own hiring decisions. And they generally under resource their leadership. the more they change things the more they stay the same.
Not signing gio a couple weeks ago is frankly either fireable or a sign they are broke and cant afford
They tried to sign Gio at that time. He chose the Ms.
Imagine a world where they did not trade for Cano and Diaz?
Yes, they'd still have Kelenic, Dunn, Bruce, Bautista, and Swarzak, but would they be a better major league team?
I was one of the more vocal people about hating the trade and I do and did hate the trade, but this start is on the starting pitchers being very erratic, Nimmo, Cespedes, Familia, and BVW for the lack of starting pitching depth - and Callaway for some head scratching managerial decisions.
but the season is not over. While the Mets fan in me says it's going to get worse. If the Mets have a 2nd half like last year while avoiding a May/June (really June) like last year, they'll be in playoff contention.
My goal for the season was meaningful August baseball. I didn't think it was a lofty goal.
Now, I'm not so sure.
Imagine a world where they did not trade for Cano and Diaz?
Yes, they'd still have Kelenic, Dunn, Bruce, Bautista, and Swarzak, but would they be a better major league team?
I was one of the more vocal people about hating the trade and I do and did hate the trade, but this start is on the starting pitchers being very erratic, Nimmo, Cespedes, Familia, and BVW for the lack of starting pitching depth - and Callaway for some head scratching managerial decisions.
but the season is not over. While the Mets fan in me says it's going to get worse. If the Mets have a 2nd half like last year while avoiding a May/June (really June) like last year, they'll be in playoff contention.
My goal for the season was meaningful August baseball. I didn't think it was a lofty goal.
Now, I'm not so sure.
So far the offseason has been a disaster - starting with Cano. The Wilpons made a decision that was widely considered risky in hiring BVW, and his decisions this offseason have possibly set the franchise back without impacting the results on the field much. That can certainly change but the Wilpons ultimately chose the "go for it" approach and bought into BVW's vision. They also presumably dictated that Machado/Harper were out of the price range. But the same way neither of those guys have lit the world on fire yet with their new teams it's still early. Just frustrating that we gave up more talent from our system than any other team and a lot of money to a 36 year old and don't have much to show for it yet.
If I were to dole out blame (a pointless exercise, but whatever) here is how I would do it:
1. Wilpons for hiring BVW, which I think he deserves more than 2 months of a season to call him a failure
2. BVW for the Cano trade
3. BVW for lack of pitching depth
4. Nimmo and his fans for penciling him in as "superstar 2nd highest OPS" or whatever the bullshit was every year going forward
5. Familia for pitching like a dick
6. The starters (JDG, Thor, Wheeler, and Matz) for being erratic and inconsistent
7. Callaway for unhinged lineup decisions and pitching changes
all fixable (short-term) with player execution.
To blame the Mets struggles mostly on the pitching is not correct. The offense has been horrible (supposedly due to the cold weather). Pitching hasnt been great but its certainly been improving. The pitching has been giving the Mets the chance to win games. Unfortunately, the Mets strike out way too much and the manager has no idea how to put together a lineup.
And people need to stop saying the Mets should have signed Gio a few weeks ago. He wasnt coming to the Mets - nor would I given the options. The time to sign him was in the offseason when he had to settle for a minor league deal.
To blame the Mets struggles mostly on the pitching is not correct. The offense has been horrible (supposedly due to the cold weather). Pitching hasnt been great but its certainly been improving. The pitching has been giving the Mets the chance to win games. Unfortunately, the Mets strike out way too much and the manager has no idea how to put together a lineup.
And people need to stop saying the Mets should have signed Gio a few weeks ago. He wasnt coming to the Mets - nor would I given the options. The time to sign him was in the offseason when he had to settle for a minor league deal.
Not just pitching, but the erratic starts of Thor and deGrom absolutely contributed to the Mets current plight.
The Mets have the 4th highest ERA in the NL (and that's with better pitching lately).
The Mets have the 4th highest BAA in the NL.
Batting hasn't been great, bu the Mets have just the 7th worst OPS (middle of the pack)
and most fans felt like the offense only needed to be middle of the pack, and the pitching needed to pitch to their capability for the Mets to compete.
and agree on Gio, but to me Gio is symbolic, it didn't need to be Gio. It could have been Buchholz, Santana, Liriano, Cahill, etc. I supported Corbin or Keuchel (make your strength stronger).
but agree, this (weakness of the 5th starter and pitching depth) should have been acknowledged and addressed in the fall/winter - not trading assets for Font. LOL.
Not accurate - when Callaway was hired he was the fans near unanimous choice whereas BVW was much more of an unknown. If there was a "fans choice" it would have been Bloom, at least from what I recall. I don't recall many taking BVW that seriously as a candidate until it came out he got the job. When he got the job I recall a lot of hesitation until his opening press conference, where he showed very well.
Most were skeptical and I think this article Ken Rosenthal wrote at the time overviewing the final 2 candidates pretty accurately reflected consensus opinion. BVW was viewed as a risk and when people started to hear from him more he not only did a great job selling his vision, but also earned praise with the hires he made in the front office - which was among the biggest concern with hiring someone who had never worked in a FO before.
Rosenthal: For the Mets, two candidates remain but one clear choice - ( New Window )
1. Wilpons for hiring BVW, which I think he deserves more than 2 months of a season to call him a failure
2. BVW for the Cano trade
3. BVW for lack of pitching depth
4. Nimmo and his fans for penciling him in as "superstar 2nd highest OPS" or whatever the bullshit was every year going forward
5. Familia for pitching like a dick
6. The starters (JDG, Thor, Wheeler, and Matz) for being erratic and inconsistent
7. Callaway for unhinged lineup decisions and pitching changes
all fixable (short-term) with player execution. [/quote]
Quote:
was hired, most fans applauded the approach when BVW was hired. At least that's my recollection. Maybe because Mets fans were terrified of luring Doug Melvin out of semi-retirement of whatever he's in, but I thought most fans were if not in full support, at least relieved with the BVW hiring.
Not accurate - when Callaway was hired he was the fans near unanimous choice whereas BVW was much more of an unknown. If there was a "fans choice" it would have been Bloom, at least from what I recall. I don't recall many taking BVW that seriously as a candidate until it came out he got the job. When he got the job I recall a lot of hesitation until his opening press conference, where he showed very well.
Most were skeptical and I think this article Ken Rosenthal wrote at the time overviewing the final 2 candidates pretty accurately reflected consensus opinion. BVW was viewed as a risk and when people started to hear from him more he not only did a great job selling his vision, but also earned praise with the hires he made in the front office - which was among the biggest concern with hiring someone who had never worked in a FO before. Rosenthal: For the Mets, two candidates remain but one clear choice - ( New Window )
Either way, the revisionist history of the "wilpons botched another one. First Callaway, now BVW like I knew they did" is just that (for the most part) revisionist history.
even if there were concerns with BVW and the one I heard the most was around the JDG extension, it was conflict of interest stuff vs lack of experience. Among fans at least.
Either way, less than 2 months in to his first season, I think is a little early to close the book on him.
1. Agreed. I still like BVW but he needs to take stock of his mistakes and not repeat them. I think his vision was sound, just made some rookie mistakes. Chief among them over relying on some aging players.
2&3. Agreed - and a lot of people first guessed these. These were possibly 2 grave miscalculations, though possibly salvageable with some luck.
4 & 5. Anyone can have an off year. That's where BVW's strategy made sense in the scope of adding depth and eliminating "ifs", just fell short of doing it by about 1 player for each of the 3 main areas of the team.
6. SP hasn't been great but hasn't been terrible either. At least they've been healthy.
7. I'd probably put Callaway higher on this list. Thoroughly disappointed at the lack of growth between year 1 and year 2.
Either way, the revisionist history of the "wilpons botched another one. First Callaway, now BVW like I knew they did" is just that (for the most part) revisionist history.
even if there were concerns with BVW and the one I heard the most was around the JDG extension, it was conflict of interest stuff vs lack of experience. Among fans at least.
Either way, less than 2 months in to his first season, I think is a little early to close the book on him.
I don't see anyone closing the book on him but I don't know how you can't lay the blame at least some of the blame at the feet of the Wilpons. I'd also remind that probably the 2 candidates with the best track records of those they reached out to refused to even interview with them. 1 whom they could have hired last year but vetoed Sandy and chose Omar instead (Cherington).
I'd encourage you to read the article from Rosenthal I linked above because reading back through it, even though it was written pre-hire, it was extremely predictive of many things that ended up playing out specifically the bolded parts in the quote below.
Perhaps because Mets majority owner Fred Wilpon and his son Jeff believe they would draw praise for an outside-the-box choice. Perhaps because they are familiar with Van Wagenen, who represents some of the teams biggest stars pitchers Jacob deGrom and Noah Syndergaard, outfielder Yoenis Cespedes, third baseman Todd Frazier. Perhaps because they think Van Wagenen would be more polished with the media than Bloom, a factor that should not be as important to the Wilpons as it always seems to be.
Van Wagenen is personable, intelligent and highly successful in his chosen field, the kind of person who would be a good bet to conquer a new challenge. The Mets would need to reach agreement with him on a contract if he was their choice, and remain engaged with Bloom in the event a deal fell apart. But the moment Van Wagenen became official, the questions would come.
Questions for Van Wagenen. Questions for the Wilpons. Questions that could not be brushed aside at a celebratory news conference at Citi Field, with the Wilpons acting all excited over their shiny new toy.
Among the questions Rosenthal posed (and everyone had) heading into the introductory press conference I think BVW has answered a lot of them very well. He's hired a lot of well regarded people for the FO. He's committed to more of a contact hitting approach many have called for. But at the core the main question of his decision making/evaluation ability in a role that has completely different demands than his previous role on are still very much as a question.
I agree that it looks like BVW's offseason might turn out to be bad (really bad if Cano is toast and Kelenic turns into a super-prospect).
However, i think it's worth noting again (this was touched on above) that one bad offseason doesn't necessarily mean he's a bust of a GM. BVW did a few things I really liked this offseason too. He built a whole new analytics department for the Mets with some really (IMO) inspired hires (some cutting edge writers included).
The early returns don't look good, and I wish we would've hired Chain Bloom (who looked like a HR hire), but BVW is likely here for the long haul, so hopefully he can succeed.
Would also be nice if Mickey can get JD Davis every day ABs, so one of BVWs few true "wins" gets a chance to shine.
We probably don't have Keuchel in the rotation right now because of the Wilpons.
But I said I have trouble blaming a lot of where the team is today on the Wilpons.
If the players here performed as expected the Mets record would be a lot better, so that's what I meant by not blaming a lot about the 2019 Mets on the Wilpons.
Lineup tonight:
1. Nimmo LF
2. Rosario SS
3. Cano 2B
4. Alonso 1B
5. Ramos C
6. Gomez RF
7. Frazier 3B
8. Lagares CF
9. deGrom SP
We probably don't have Keuchel in the rotation right now because of the Wilpons.
But I said I have trouble blaming a lot of where the team is today on the Wilpons.
If the players here performed as expected the Mets record would be a lot better, so that's what I meant by not blaming a lot about the 2019 Mets on the Wilpons.
Absolutely fair. If you changed nothing else but Cano was playing like a top player right now this team would probably be within a game of first place. The line between winning and losing is sometimes 1 wrong move, and right now it looks like BVW's signature move of the offseason was his biggest dud. Last year Cano played in 80 games and was worth 3 wins above replacement. In half that number of games he has been worth .1 wins above replacement. That's the main story of the first 25% of the season.
Link - ( New Window )
Marlins came in w/ 2 straight shut outs, but playing the Mets always heals what ails ya. Brewers won 1/8 coming in, W 5/6 vs NYM. Reds can't hit? Bats wake up. Nats struggling? W 2/3...
Zach Braziller
Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
If the #mets are bad this year, and it looks like that may be the case, thats not the problem. The real problem is how they damaged their future with that fake all-in offseason. Trading prospects, adding big payroll to on the wrong side veterans to a mediocre team is the issue
8:45 PM - 17 May 2019 from Manhattan, NY
Zach Braziller
Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago
Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller
They didnt spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets
And Ramos w/ a hit...no outs top 8th
Zach Braziller
Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago
Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller
They didnt spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets
Dead on accurate.
Another year, another bad Mets team. The only thing they are consistent at...sucking.
Both Nimmo & Ramos got one too
Kind of need at least 2 to make this a game for the 9th
Zach Braziller
Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago
Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller
They didnt spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets
Bingo. The Cano deal helped them "spend more" this year the same way madoff profits helped them spend more those few years the payroll spiked under Omar. Except this time the risk of implosion was more predictable.
Rereading that Rosenthal quote about what the Wilpons liked about BVW reminded me just how susceptible they are to a glossy sales pitch that allows them to have their cake and eat it too, while not increasing the money they spend out of pocket. Not saying BVW won't deliver but turning around a mediocre team with a mediocre budget is a difficult ask for anyone.
I'm not asking for 90+ wins, a division title, even a wild card.
I just want to care in August.
And this shit show of a team is firing their manager by Memorial Day.
I should have lowered the bar.
On the contrary BVW was a similar dice roll, who was not my preferred candidate, and while he has certainly made mistakes I can think of a bunch of good things hes done. Not the case with Callaway. Riggleman probably ends up with the job, but Id honestly prefer Collins. I believe hes still in the org in some capacity?
This is the best take on Cano that I have seen. Agree 100%. Watching his decline as a player and his absolute refusal to hustle is going to be a nightmare throughout this contract. What an absolute mess BVW has made.
With all the bullshit around Cano - we should have taken the Mariners to the cleaners on that deal. The only leverage they had was to simply not make the deal. Nobody else was touching Cano and the Mariners wanted out of the contract.
But this is the Mets. And acquiring Cano was their way of making the cheapest BIG move of the offseason. Yeah, that worked out when we signed Jason Bay too.
With all the bullshit around Cano - we should have taken the Mariners to the cleaners on that deal. The only leverage they had was to simply not make the deal. Nobody else was touching Cano and the Mariners wanted out of the contract.
But this is the Mets. And acquiring Cano was their way of making the cheapest BIG move of the offseason. Yeah, that worked out when we signed Jason Bay too.
The Cano move fits so many parallels with every disastrous move this org has made the past 20 years - the ridiculous financial risk of acquiring Mo Vaughn and bringing him to a new league, the ignoring of basic biology warning signs displayed by Robbie Alomar, the insane penny pinching to ignore a slightly more expensive premium options in favor of a tier 2 "star" like Jason Bay. The "former client" bias was new but other than that it really hit all the notes from the Wilpon's greatest hits.
And don't give me bullshit about Diaz. Closers are not a position you give up premium assets for except at the deadline I guess if you're a contender and that bullpen strength helps put you over the top (See Cubs and Indians).
I hate to rehash this trade, I hated it when it was announced, i hoped it worked out, so far it looks like the Mets got fleeced like Bart Simpson when he switched IQ tests with Martin and went to the school for geniuses and all the real geniuses swindled him out of his lunch.
So demoralizing to have a shitty major league team and it came at the cost of what would probably be the two best prospects, shitty team, shitty farm.
and it's not even Memorial Day.
And don't give me bullshit about Diaz. Closers are not a position you give up premium assets for except at the deadline I guess if you're a contender and that bullpen strength helps put you over the top (See Cubs and Indians).
I hate to rehash this trade, I hated it when it was announced, i hoped it worked out, so far it looks like the Mets got fleeced like Bart Simpson when he switched IQ tests with Martin and went to the school for geniuses and all the real geniuses swindled him out of his lunch.
So demoralizing to have a shitty major league team and it came at the cost of what would probably be the two best prospects, shitty team, shitty farm.
and it's not even Memorial Day.
Dunn has cooled off and still seems like a back end option or BP guy. I'd rather have him than not but not a huge loss. Kelenic stings no doubt. Thank god they pulled Mcneil back. Imagine if they'd given him up too?
I'd almost rather have included McNeil than Kelenic for a couple reasons.
One, McNeil is injury prone
two, his main position is 2B and there are many options at 2B, including Cano
three, OF bats, who can play CF, are far more valuable than McNeils
of course there was risk with Kelenic (and still is), but it's one I'd have taken.
I even said Gimenez would have been a no-brainer over Kelenic (but you definitely didn't want that - and I still think Gimenez is Ruben Tejada (maybe with upside, but that's his comp IMO)
is this just in response to the thought of bvw thinking Cano would be the leader in the clubhouse or did I miss something new?
Re: McNeil I disagree - the guy has a rare and seemingly elite contact skillset. He's young, cheap, versatile, reasonably athletic. It is not at all a stretch to see him being our version of Zobrist, and still on his rookie contract that's enormously valuable. From 2008-2018 Zobrist was the 12th highest fwar in all MLB.
Re: Dunn, Kay's been better than him this year so he almost definitely wouldn't be the 2nd most valuable prospect we have right now. But again, he's got value and I'd much rather have another good pitching prospect than not having one. The overall deal could not look worse for BVW right now.
You don't have Cano and McNeil on the same team IMO. They both play 2B and the NL does not have a DH yet. McNeil can play elsewhere, but he's a 2B.
I'm not sold on Kay yet (as a top 1 or 2 system prospect), I don't think you adjust prospect rankings based on 8 starts, plus he projects as a bullpen guy from what I've read.
You don't have Cano and McNeil on the same team IMO. They both play 2B and the NL does not have a DH yet. McNeil can play elsewhere, but he's a 2B.
I'm not sold on Kay yet (as a top 1 or 2 system prospect), I don't think you adjust prospect rankings based on 8 starts, plus he projects as a bullpen guy from what I've read.
I'm not really sold on either Dunn or Kay. Both seem like solid depth prospects but probably nothing more (both seem like Aaron Heilman's, not Wheeler/Harvey/Thor). I don't think either of them is close to whoever the 2nd best prospect in the system is right now. I think Law was the only writer who had Kelenic/Dunn 1-2 in the system. Looks like he was very right to be so bullish on Kelenic but Dunn is still having trouble with lefties in AA and the way the market is now if guys like Gio Gonzalez are truly that easy to find on 1 year deals I don't know how much value any back end P prospect has.
either way, same point.
and even if Dunn's value is BOR starter, I'd rather seem him every 5th day than Vargas or Font.