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NFT: Same ole Wilpon Mets fails and curses help me off

giantsFC : 5/16/2019 9:05 pm
the ledge
Canít win a series outside of playing the worst team in baseball
Conforto Concussion
McNeil abdominal ďtightnessĒ
Gio Gonzalez fail
Mickey Callaway
Brodie Van Stupid
And now garbage Keon Broxton complaining about playing time of all delusional things

Itís just tiring being a Mets fan. If it wasnít for 1986 and the 80ís baseball era in general, then I probably would have been a Yankees fan.
If it werenít for the Ď86 World Series team, there wouldnít be  
PhiPsi125 : 5/16/2019 9:11 pm : link
very many Mets fans left at all. I certainly wouldnít be one considering the rest of my family are Yankee fans. What would be the point?

This team can never get out of its own way. I wish I could go back in time and make sure Doubleday kept control of the team.
.  
Jim in Fairfax : 5/16/2019 9:11 pm : link
That pic  
giantsFC : 5/16/2019 9:19 pm : link
Sums it all up 😂

And yeah my parents were a split of Yankees and Mets but the rest of close family all Mets so I guess that won out. And it was the one era in baseball where the Mets ruled and Yankees kinda stunk

And Doubleday, boy if we could have gone back and had almost anyone else own the team (minus Dolan and some others). Or a few years ago when they ALMOST sold the team to whatever crap group.
But but but  
moze1021 : 5/16/2019 9:22 pm : link
Brodie said that they have best team in the division!! And they added Wilson Ramos to fill the role of "middle of the order RH bat"!! And Jed Lowrie was the best value signing in baseball!!

I don't understand why it didn't work!!

this team ain't going anywhere this season  
spike : 5/16/2019 9:26 pm : link
they dont have the horses.
I'm not as pessimistic as you guys.  
81_Great_Dane : 5/16/2019 10:06 pm : link
They're better than last year, mainly thanks to McNeil and Alonso. That's kind of a low bar, though.

I'm very concerned about the starting pitching depth; yeah, Gio was a fail. We may well see Kay in Queens before September.

Broxton and Frazier have to go, but I think they will, soon. We'll see Gomez for Broxton and some day, maybe, Lowrie for Frazier, but I don't think BVW is going to be too patient with Frazier, whom he didn't sign in the first place.

Cano, well, we'll see. I never liked that acquisition because I want McNeil playing every day at 2nd. But Diaz was the real target in that trade, and I like him as the closer.

Familia, meh. He's half arsonist.

It's a long season. There's a lot of time for ups and downs. We're getting past the "small sample size" phase so they will need to start adjusting, especially if they're going to be "merit-based," as BVW says.
Bvw is horrible  
bhill410 : 5/16/2019 11:09 pm : link
Even z would struggle to defend this off-season.
Not signing gio a couple weeks ago is frankly either fireable or a sign they are broke and canít afford
RE: I'm not as pessimistic as you guys.  
Deejboy : 5/16/2019 11:13 pm : link
In comment 14446722 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
They're better than last year, mainly thanks to McNeil and Alonso. That's kind of a low bar, though.

I'm very concerned about the starting pitching depth; yeah, Gio was a fail. We may well see Kay in Queens before September.

Broxton and Frazier have to go, but I think they will, soon. We'll see Gomez for Broxton and some day, maybe, Lowrie for Frazier, but I don't think BVW is going to be too patient with Frazier, whom he didn't sign in the first place.

Cano, well, we'll see. I never liked that acquisition because I want McNeil playing every day at 2nd. But Diaz was the real target in that trade, and I like him as the closer.

Familia, meh. He's half arsonist.

It's a long season. There's a lot of time for ups and downs. We're getting past the "small sample size" phase so they will need to start adjusting, especially if they're going to be "merit-based," as BVW says.

Even if you like Diaz as a closer, if Cano is a lost cause, than that is a bad trade. You could have just signed Kimbrel and you wouldn't have had to take back a broken down very expensive player who is signed through 2023. That was the huge risk in getting Diaz. You had to take back Cano and if Cano finally looked old it would be a disaster cause you can't hide him at DH.

The Mets were hoping to at least get two more 2017 level Cano years out of him. The nightmare is him falling apart this year. Hopefully he bounces back in the second half as he did in previous years. But as you get older that is much harder to do. Diaz will be arbitration eligible after this year and will get a huge pay raise as he deserves so he isn't going to be cheap anymore. That is another reason the Mariners were open to moving him.
Cano  
Samiam : 5/16/2019 11:25 pm : link
I think that when the weather turns warm for good, youíll see Canoís bat come alive. That might be true for other hitters. By the way, regarding the comment that Kimbrel should have been signed, is there any public information about what his salary demands are? Itís easy to sign this guy or that guy
Ahh, the old ďcold weatherĒ excuse again for the Mets.  
PhiPsi125 : 5/17/2019 12:13 am : link
Itís amazing how so many other teams have the ability to not suck in the cold weather. You know, if you need a couple of months for weather to warm up then you probably just arenít that good. Ironically, for all the cold weather excuses, the Mets were hitting at a historic pace the first 2/3 weeks of the season (the coldest part of the season). Iím going to help you guys out, the Mets issues arenít the weather.

Cano will likely have a great week here and there throughout the season, but it ainít because the sun is shining a little brighter. Iím pretty confident that we arenít going to get anything close to ďgoodĒ Cano for the next five years. This is a 36 year old, recent PED user, known lazy player, on the back half of his last contract. Itís a blueprint for everything a GM should avoid. But hey, we got a relief pitcher out of it...soooo, awesome.

Cano fits nicely on the team with the 2nd best NL offensive hitter in 2018 Brandon Nimmo. You know...Yelich 2.0.
All of the above  
giantsFC : 5/17/2019 12:29 am : link
Sorry but itís negative sounding but I must also agree

And the cold weather thing is almost more a Mets fail. I vividly remember Cespedes and company wearing ski masks and shit looking like it was the tundra of the 1980ís Serbia out there during the World Series and not hitting a lick.

God toughen up your players a bit, itís NY. Or scout those who want and can play in cold weather.

Baseball has been around since the 1800ks in the north. Why is it only the Mets seem to suck in cold weather?

BVW wildly overestimated some of his old clients - still time to save  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 10:02 am : link
the season but he's got to be active changing up what isn't working. He talked about accountability a lot - can't keep losing series to everyone other than the Marlins.

Gomez is coming up, Broxton needs to be cut (especially after the comments he made). Frazier needs to not start another game until he actually does something to earn it.

They need to find a way to add to the pitching staff and they need to not give up any more prospects from their system. Keuchel or Kimbrel once the draft pick goes away is a hailmary that they almost have to go for.

Cano and Callaway are 2 train wrecks in slow motion. No easy answers there. Welcome to the Mets Brodie!
When you go below .500  
Metnut : 5/17/2019 10:15 am : link
with pretty good injury luck from training camp and onward, you really put yourself in a tough spot. Aside from Lowrie, you have Degrom missing a start, Matz missing a few starts (who is always hurt), and Vargas and Frazier (who both stink anyway) missing some time.

That's not bad, and should've been a time to capitilize. We're lucky that the NL East has turned out to be overrated. Season isn't over yet, but we're treading water.

We're going to run out of games vs the Marlins to beat up on soon. The hope is that the team can hang around .500 long enough and "get hot."

Awful offseason  
TyreeHelmet : 5/17/2019 11:00 am : link
You get what you pay for.
Cano deal is why most were afraid of going out of the box w/ GM hire  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 11:19 am : link
especially after the Callaway debacle. I have a lot more faith in BVW figuring things out than Callaway, but the risk is the same. Hiring a first time anything is a risk. Especially in his case since he'd never had experience building an organization.

The core problem of this org will always be the wilpons. They have proven to be awful evaluators in terms of their own hiring decisions. And they generally under resource their leadership. the more they change things the more they stay the same.
RE: Bvw is horrible  
schabadoo : 5/17/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14446751 bhill410 said:
Quote:
Even z would struggle to defend this off-season.
Not signing gio a couple weeks ago is frankly either fireable or a sign they are broke and canít afford


They tried to sign Gio at that time. He chose the Ms.
Hard to blame this Wilpons  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 12:08 pm : link
for a lot of what's wrong with the Mets currently.

Imagine a world where they did not trade for Cano and Diaz?

Yes, they'd still have Kelenic, Dunn, Bruce, Bautista, and Swarzak, but would they be a better major league team?

I was one of the more vocal people about hating the trade and I do and did hate the trade, but this start is on the starting pitchers being very erratic, Nimmo, Cespedes, Familia, and BVW for the lack of starting pitching depth - and Callaway for some head scratching managerial decisions.

but the season is not over. While the Mets fan in me says it's going to get worse. If the Mets have a 2nd half like last year while avoiding a May/June (really June) like last year, they'll be in playoff contention.

My goal for the season was meaningful August baseball. I didn't think it was a lofty goal.

Now, I'm not so sure.
RE: Hard to blame this Wilpons  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14447205 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
for a lot of what's wrong with the Mets currently.

Imagine a world where they did not trade for Cano and Diaz?

Yes, they'd still have Kelenic, Dunn, Bruce, Bautista, and Swarzak, but would they be a better major league team?

I was one of the more vocal people about hating the trade and I do and did hate the trade, but this start is on the starting pitchers being very erratic, Nimmo, Cespedes, Familia, and BVW for the lack of starting pitching depth - and Callaway for some head scratching managerial decisions.

but the season is not over. While the Mets fan in me says it's going to get worse. If the Mets have a 2nd half like last year while avoiding a May/June (really June) like last year, they'll be in playoff contention.

My goal for the season was meaningful August baseball. I didn't think it was a lofty goal.

Now, I'm not so sure.


So far the offseason has been a disaster - starting with Cano. The Wilpons made a decision that was widely considered risky in hiring BVW, and his decisions this offseason have possibly set the franchise back without impacting the results on the field much. That can certainly change but the Wilpons ultimately chose the "go for it" approach and bought into BVW's vision. They also presumably dictated that Machado/Harper were out of the price range. But the same way neither of those guys have lit the world on fire yet with their new teams it's still early. Just frustrating that we gave up more talent from our system than any other team and a lot of money to a 36 year old and don't have much to show for it yet.
Like when Callaway  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 12:35 pm : link
was hired, most fans applauded the approach when BVW was hired. At least that's my recollection. Maybe because Mets fans were terrified of luring Doug Melvin out of semi-retirement of whatever he's in, but I thought most fans were if not in full support, at least relieved with the BVW hiring.

If I were to dole out blame (a pointless exercise, but whatever) here is how I would do it:

1. Wilpons for hiring BVW, which I think he deserves more than 2 months of a season to call him a failure

2. BVW for the Cano trade

3. BVW for lack of pitching depth

4. Nimmo and his fans for penciling him in as "superstar 2nd highest OPS" or whatever the bullshit was every year going forward

5. Familia for pitching like a dick

6. The starters (JDG, Thor, Wheeler, and Matz) for being erratic and inconsistent

7. Callaway for unhinged lineup decisions and pitching changes

all fixable (short-term) with player execution.
Of course fans applauded when Mickey was hired. Dealing with  
PhiPsi125 : 5/17/2019 1:16 pm : link
years of Terry Collins will make fans applaud if a deck chair was hired to manage the team. Yes, it was risky but it looked to be a quality choice since he was a highly regarded pitching coach. But in true Mets fashion, heís been a disaster and the pitching has actually gotten worse.

To blame the Mets struggles mostly on the pitching is not correct. The offense has been horrible (supposedly due to the cold weather). Pitching hasnít been great but itís certainly been improving. The pitching has been giving the Mets the chance to win games. Unfortunately, the Mets strike out way too much and the manager has no idea how to put together a lineup.

And people need to stop saying the Mets should have signed Gio a few weeks ago. He wasnít coming to the Mets - nor would I given the options. The time to sign him was in the offseason when he had to settle for a minor league deal.
LGM...  
BamaBlue : 5/17/2019 1:21 pm : link
or not.

RE: Of course fans applauded when Mickey was hired. Dealing with  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 1:46 pm : link
In comment 14447319 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
years of Terry Collins will make fans applaud if a deck chair was hired to manage the team. Yes, it was risky but it looked to be a quality choice since he was a highly regarded pitching coach. But in true Mets fashion, heís been a disaster and the pitching has actually gotten worse.

To blame the Mets struggles mostly on the pitching is not correct. The offense has been horrible (supposedly due to the cold weather). Pitching hasnít been great but itís certainly been improving. The pitching has been giving the Mets the chance to win games. Unfortunately, the Mets strike out way too much and the manager has no idea how to put together a lineup.

And people need to stop saying the Mets should have signed Gio a few weeks ago. He wasnít coming to the Mets - nor would I given the options. The time to sign him was in the offseason when he had to settle for a minor league deal.


Not just pitching, but the erratic starts of Thor and deGrom absolutely contributed to the Mets current plight.

The Mets have the 4th highest ERA in the NL (and that's with better pitching lately).

The Mets have the 4th highest BAA in the NL.

Batting hasn't been great, bu the Mets have just the 7th worst OPS (middle of the pack)

and most fans felt like the offense only needed to be middle of the pack, and the pitching needed to pitch to their capability for the Mets to compete.

and agree on Gio, but to me Gio is symbolic, it didn't need to be Gio. It could have been Buchholz, Santana, Liriano, Cahill, etc. I supported Corbin or Keuchel (make your strength stronger).

but agree, this (weakness of the 5th starter and pitching depth) should have been acknowledged and addressed in the fall/winter - not trading assets for Font. LOL.
RE: Like when Callaway  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14447245 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
was hired, most fans applauded the approach when BVW was hired. At least that's my recollection. Maybe because Mets fans were terrified of luring Doug Melvin out of semi-retirement of whatever he's in, but I thought most fans were if not in full support, at least relieved with the BVW hiring.


Not accurate - when Callaway was hired he was the fans near unanimous choice whereas BVW was much more of an unknown. If there was a "fans choice" it would have been Bloom, at least from what I recall. I don't recall many taking BVW that seriously as a candidate until it came out he got the job. When he got the job I recall a lot of hesitation until his opening press conference, where he showed very well.

Most were skeptical and I think this article Ken Rosenthal wrote at the time overviewing the final 2 candidates pretty accurately reflected consensus opinion. BVW was viewed as a risk and when people started to hear from him more he not only did a great job selling his vision, but also earned praise with the hires he made in the front office - which was among the biggest concern with hiring someone who had never worked in a FO before.
Rosenthal: For the Mets, two candidates remain but one clear choice - ( New Window )
figured I  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 2:19 pm : link
If I were to dole out blame (a pointless exercise, but whatever) here is how I would do it:

1. Wilpons for hiring BVW, which I think he deserves more than 2 months of a season to call him a failure

2. BVW for the Cano trade

3. BVW for lack of pitching depth

4. Nimmo and his fans for penciling him in as "superstar 2nd highest OPS" or whatever the bullshit was every year going forward

5. Familia for pitching like a dick

6. The starters (JDG, Thor, Wheeler, and Matz) for being erratic and inconsistent

7. Callaway for unhinged lineup decisions and pitching changes

all fixable (short-term) with player execution. [/quote]
RE: RE: Like when Callaway  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14447461 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14447245 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


was hired, most fans applauded the approach when BVW was hired. At least that's my recollection. Maybe because Mets fans were terrified of luring Doug Melvin out of semi-retirement of whatever he's in, but I thought most fans were if not in full support, at least relieved with the BVW hiring.




Not accurate - when Callaway was hired he was the fans near unanimous choice whereas BVW was much more of an unknown. If there was a "fans choice" it would have been Bloom, at least from what I recall. I don't recall many taking BVW that seriously as a candidate until it came out he got the job. When he got the job I recall a lot of hesitation until his opening press conference, where he showed very well.

Most were skeptical and I think this article Ken Rosenthal wrote at the time overviewing the final 2 candidates pretty accurately reflected consensus opinion. BVW was viewed as a risk and when people started to hear from him more he not only did a great job selling his vision, but also earned praise with the hires he made in the front office - which was among the biggest concern with hiring someone who had never worked in a FO before. Rosenthal: For the Mets, two candidates remain but one clear choice - ( New Window )


Either way, the revisionist history of the "wilpons botched another one. First Callaway, now BVW like I knew they did" is just that (for the most part) revisionist history.

even if there were concerns with BVW and the one I heard the most was around the JDG extension, it was conflict of interest stuff vs lack of experience. Among fans at least.

Either way, less than 2 months in to his first season, I think is a little early to close the book on him.


sorry hit a random key and posted that last quote of PJ too soon  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 2:26 pm : link
re: the dole out of blame.

1. Agreed. I still like BVW but he needs to take stock of his mistakes and not repeat them. I think his vision was sound, just made some rookie mistakes. Chief among them over relying on some aging players.

2&3. Agreed - and a lot of people first guessed these. These were possibly 2 grave miscalculations, though possibly salvageable with some luck.

4 & 5. Anyone can have an off year. That's where BVW's strategy made sense in the scope of adding depth and eliminating "ifs", just fell short of doing it by about 1 player for each of the 3 main areas of the team.

6. SP hasn't been great but hasn't been terrible either. At least they've been healthy.

7. I'd probably put Callaway higher on this list. Thoroughly disappointed at the lack of growth between year 1 and year 2.
RE: RE: RE: Like when Callaway  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 2:41 pm : link
In comment 14447469 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

Either way, the revisionist history of the "wilpons botched another one. First Callaway, now BVW like I knew they did" is just that (for the most part) revisionist history.

even if there were concerns with BVW and the one I heard the most was around the JDG extension, it was conflict of interest stuff vs lack of experience. Among fans at least.

Either way, less than 2 months in to his first season, I think is a little early to close the book on him.



I don't see anyone closing the book on him but I don't know how you can't lay the blame at least some of the blame at the feet of the Wilpons. I'd also remind that probably the 2 candidates with the best track records of those they reached out to refused to even interview with them. 1 whom they could have hired last year but vetoed Sandy and chose Omar instead (Cherington).

I'd encourage you to read the article from Rosenthal I linked above because reading back through it, even though it was written pre-hire, it was extremely predictive of many things that ended up playing out specifically the bolded parts in the quote below.

Quote:
Why would the Mets hire Van Wagenen, an agent with zero experience in baseball operations, over a rising star such as Bloom, who fits the mold of many recent hires for top executive positions, not to mention the mold the Giants currently are seeking for their own opening?

Perhaps because Mets majority owner Fred Wilpon and his son Jeff believe they would draw praise for an outside-the-box choice. Perhaps because they are familiar with Van Wagenen, who represents some of the teamís biggest stars ó pitchers Jacob deGrom and Noah Syndergaard, outfielder Yoenis Cespedes, third baseman Todd Frazier. Perhaps because they think Van Wagenen would be more polished with the media than Bloom, a factor that should not be as important to the Wilpons as it always seems to be.

Van Wagenen is personable, intelligent and highly successful in his chosen field, the kind of person who would be a good bet to conquer a new challenge. The Mets would need to reach agreement with him on a contract if he was their choice, and remain engaged with Bloom in the event a deal fell apart. But the moment Van Wagenen became official, the questions would come.

Questions for Van Wagenen. Questions for the Wilpons. Questions that could not be brushed aside at a celebratory news conference at Citi Field, with the Wilpons acting all excited over their shiny new toy.

Among the questions Rosenthal posed (and everyone had) heading into the introductory press conference I think BVW has answered a lot of them very well. He's hired a lot of well regarded people for the FO. He's committed to more of a contact hitting approach many have called for. But at the core the main question of his decision making/evaluation ability in a role that has completely different demands than his previous role on are still very much as a question.
Good stuff guys...  
Metnut : 5/17/2019 3:01 pm : link
good thread to read.

I agree that it looks like BVW's offseason might turn out to be bad (really bad if Cano is toast and Kelenic turns into a super-prospect).

However, i think it's worth noting again (this was touched on above) that one bad offseason doesn't necessarily mean he's a bust of a GM. BVW did a few things I really liked this offseason too. He built a whole new analytics department for the Mets with some really (IMO) inspired hires (some cutting edge writers included).

The early returns don't look good, and I wish we would've hired Chain Bloom (who looked like a HR hire), but BVW is likely here for the long haul, so hopefully he can succeed.

Would also be nice if Mickey can get JD Davis every day ABs, so one of BVWs few true "wins" gets a chance to shine.
I blame the Wilpons  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 3:37 pm : link
for the points mentioned. No Machado or Harper more likely than not lies squarely with the Wilpons. No matter how anyone spins it, both were good fits.

We probably don't have Keuchel in the rotation right now because of the Wilpons.

But I said I have trouble blaming a lot of where the team is today on the Wilpons.

If the players here performed as expected the Mets record would be a lot better, so that's what I meant by not blaming a lot about the 2019 Mets on the Wilpons.

Broxton  
GF1080 : 5/17/2019 4:34 pm : link
Broxton DFA'd. Conforto to IL. Gomez and Sewald up.

Lineup tonight:

1. Nimmo LF
2. Rosario SS
3. Cano 2B
4. Alonso 1B
5. Ramos C
6. Gomez RF
7. Frazier 3B
8. Lagares CF
9. deGrom SP
Canít find a spot in the lineup for Davis  
Metnut : 5/17/2019 5:26 pm : link
even with Conforto, McNeil and Lowrie out Mickey?
RE: I blame the Wilpons  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 6:00 pm : link
In comment 14447560 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
for the points mentioned. No Machado or Harper more likely than not lies squarely with the Wilpons. No matter how anyone spins it, both were good fits.

We probably don't have Keuchel in the rotation right now because of the Wilpons.

But I said I have trouble blaming a lot of where the team is today on the Wilpons.

If the players here performed as expected the Mets record would be a lot better, so that's what I meant by not blaming a lot about the 2019 Mets on the Wilpons.


Absolutely fair. If you changed nothing else but Cano was playing like a top player right now this team would probably be within a game of first place. The line between winning and losing is sometimes 1 wrong move, and right now it looks like BVW's signature move of the offseason was his biggest dud. Last year Cano played in 80 games and was worth 3 wins above replacement. In half that number of games he has been worth .1 wins above replacement. That's the main story of the first 25% of the season.
Mets GM talks Broxton, Gomez, and status of Calloway  
Canton : 5/17/2019 7:54 pm : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
JDG already given up 4 (3 ER i think)  
ChaChing : 5/17/2019 8:33 pm : link
When that happens, not much anyone on the Mets can do

Marlins came in w/ 2 straight shut outs, but playing the Mets always heals what ails ya. Brewers won 1/8 coming in, W 5/6 vs NYM. Reds can't hit? Bats wake up. Nats struggling? W 2/3...
Fargin  
ChaChing : 5/17/2019 8:34 pm : link
Bastages
.  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 8:50 pm : link

Zach Braziller
‏Verified account @NYPost_Brazille

If the #mets are bad this year, and it looks like that may be the case, thatís not the problem. The real problem is how they damaged their future with that fake ďall-inĒ offseason. Trading prospects, adding big payroll to on the wrong side veterans to a mediocre team is the issue
8:45 PM - 17 May 2019 from Manhattan, NY
.  
pjcas18 : 5/17/2019 8:51 pm : link

Zach Braziller
‏Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago

Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller

They didnít spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets
JDG getting hammered  
ChaChing : 5/17/2019 8:53 pm : link
7-1 bot 5th
8-4  
ChaChing : 5/17/2019 9:36 pm : link
Alonso w/ his 2nd 1 run HR today, JD came in and blasted a 2 run HR prior inning

And Ramos w/ a hit...no outs top 8th
RE: .  
PhiPsi125 : 5/17/2019 9:37 pm : link
In comment 14447818 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

Zach Braziller
‏Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago

Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller

They didnít spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets


Dead on accurate.

Another year, another bad Mets team. The only thing they are consistent at...sucking.
Now Frazier w/ a big hit  
ChaChing : 5/17/2019 9:44 pm : link
bases loaded 0-outs, Lagares up, JD on deck...

Both Nimmo & Ramos got one too

Kind of need at least 2 to make this a game for the 9th
RE: .  
Eric on Li : 5/17/2019 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14447818 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

Zach Braziller
‏Verified account @NYPost_Brazille
3m3 minutes ago

Zach Braziller Retweeted Zach Braziller

They didnít spend on any big free agents and instead traded good prospects. Idea they were trying to really win was nonsense. They were trying to possibly compete. #mets


Bingo. The Cano deal helped them "spend more" this year the same way madoff profits helped them spend more those few years the payroll spiked under Omar. Except this time the risk of implosion was more predictable.

Rereading that Rosenthal quote about what the Wilpons liked about BVW reminded me just how susceptible they are to a glossy sales pitch that allows them to have their cake and eat it too, while not increasing the money they spend out of pocket. Not saying BVW won't deliver but turning around a mediocre team with a mediocre budget is a difficult ask for anyone.
No game day thread and another  
Rob in Rockaway : 5/18/2019 7:18 pm : link
lifeless loss to an awful team. We are approaching the death spiral. Time to rearrange the deck chairs by firing Mickey and Staff.
Take this with a boulder of salt  
Shecky : 5/18/2019 8:10 pm : link
ďTrue. Another reason Callaway will be fired on Monday is if you look at the dugout all you see is guys joking with each other. No oneís paying attention no one gives a shit. No accountability whatsoever.Ē
All I asked for was meaningful  
pjcas18 : 5/18/2019 8:17 pm : link
August baseball.

I'm not asking for 90+ wins, a division title, even a wild card.

I just want to care in August.

And this shit show of a team is firing their manager by Memorial Day.

I should have lowered the bar.
I was for hiring Callaway and I would have fired him last year  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2019 9:26 pm : link
Sometimes you roll the dice on a boom or bust option and right away itís clear the guy is completely over his head - this seemed to be one of those cases. This may seem harsh but I canít think of 1 good thing about his tenure. He had a very Mcadoo vibe from the moment that first winning streak ended.

On the contrary BVW was a similar dice roll, who was not my preferred candidate, and while he has certainly made mistakes I can think of a bunch of good things heís done. Not the case with Callaway. Riggleman probably ends up with the job, but Iíd honestly prefer Collins. I believe heís still in the org in some capacity?
RE: Ahh, the old ďcold weatherĒ excuse again for the Mets.  
Rob in Rockaway : 5/19/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14446762 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
Cano will likely have a great week here and there throughout the season, but it ainít because the sun is shining a little brighter. Iím pretty confident that we arenít going to get anything close to ďgoodĒ Cano for the next five years. This is a 36 year old, recent PED user, known lazy player, on the back half of his last contract. Itís a blueprint for everything a GM should avoid. But hey, we got a relief pitcher out of it...soooo, awesome.


This is the best take on Cano that I have seen. Agree 100%. Watching his decline as a player and his absolute refusal to hustle is going to be a nightmare throughout this contract. What an absolute mess BVW has made.
Letís look at it another way.  
PhiPsi125 : 5/19/2019 2:33 pm : link
We traded for a player (and his $20 million per year price tag) with the HOPE that he can give us a good player for 1 or 2 years out of the 5 we have him for. LOL, most people gave up on getting any valuable production out of Canoís last three years before the trade was even completed.

With all the bullshit around Cano - we should have taken the Mariners to the cleaners on that deal. The only leverage they had was to simply not make the deal. Nobody else was touching Cano and the Mariners wanted out of the contract.

But this is the Mets. And acquiring Cano was their way of making the cheapest ďBIGĒ move of the offseason. Yeah, that worked out when we signed Jason Bay too.
RE: Letís look at it another way.  
Eric on Li : 5/19/2019 4:02 pm : link
In comment 14448821 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
We traded for a player (and his $20 million per year price tag) with the HOPE that he can give us a good player for 1 or 2 years out of the 5 we have him for. LOL, most people gave up on getting any valuable production out of Canoís last three years before the trade was even completed.

With all the bullshit around Cano - we should have taken the Mariners to the cleaners on that deal. The only leverage they had was to simply not make the deal. Nobody else was touching Cano and the Mariners wanted out of the contract.

But this is the Mets. And acquiring Cano was their way of making the cheapest ďBIGĒ move of the offseason. Yeah, that worked out when we signed Jason Bay too.


The Cano move fits so many parallels with every disastrous move this org has made the past 20 years - the ridiculous financial risk of acquiring Mo Vaughn and bringing him to a new league, the ignoring of basic biology warning signs displayed by Robbie Alomar, the insane penny pinching to ignore a slightly more expensive premium options in favor of a tier 2 "star" like Jason Bay. The "former client" bias was new but other than that it really hit all the notes from the Wilpon's greatest hits.
If the Cano  
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 4:30 pm : link
deal didn't involve Kelenic I wouldn't have cared about it as much.

And don't give me bullshit about Diaz. Closers are not a position you give up premium assets for except at the deadline I guess if you're a contender and that bullpen strength helps put you over the top (See Cubs and Indians).

I hate to rehash this trade, I hated it when it was announced, i hoped it worked out, so far it looks like the Mets got fleeced like Bart Simpson when he switched IQ tests with Martin and went to the school for geniuses and all the real geniuses swindled him out of his lunch.

So demoralizing to have a shitty major league team and it came at the cost of what would probably be the two best prospects, shitty team, shitty farm.

and it's not even Memorial Day.
RE: If the Cano  
Eric on Li : 5/19/2019 4:33 pm : link
In comment 14448987 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
deal didn't involve Kelenic I wouldn't have cared about it as much.

And don't give me bullshit about Diaz. Closers are not a position you give up premium assets for except at the deadline I guess if you're a contender and that bullpen strength helps put you over the top (See Cubs and Indians).

I hate to rehash this trade, I hated it when it was announced, i hoped it worked out, so far it looks like the Mets got fleeced like Bart Simpson when he switched IQ tests with Martin and went to the school for geniuses and all the real geniuses swindled him out of his lunch.

So demoralizing to have a shitty major league team and it came at the cost of what would probably be the two best prospects, shitty team, shitty farm.

and it's not even Memorial Day.


Dunn has cooled off and still seems like a back end option or BP guy. I'd rather have him than not but not a huge loss. Kelenic stings no doubt. Thank god they pulled Mcneil back. Imagine if they'd given him up too?
btw it seems the biggest misfire of the Cano deal was BVW's eval  
Eric on Li : 5/19/2019 4:36 pm : link
of him as the guy to build his lockerroom around. That's not a biological unknown. Or a variable like hitting performance when changing leagues. He was his agent and seems to have really misevaluated Cano across the board.
Even with Dunn's  
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 4:38 pm : link
latest struggles (his last start was a good one, in fact he's only had a handful of bad starts all season), he'd be the Mets 2nd best prospect and a potential rotation option if the Mets were contenders (or just needed an arm).

I'd almost rather have included McNeil than Kelenic for a couple reasons.

One, McNeil is injury prone

two, his main position is 2B and there are many options at 2B, including Cano

three, OF bats, who can play CF, are far more valuable than McNeils

of course there was risk with Kelenic (and still is), but it's one I'd have taken.

I even said Gimenez would have been a no-brainer over Kelenic (but you definitely didn't want that - and I still think Gimenez is Ruben Tejada (maybe with upside, but that's his comp IMO)
Holy shit if that's true  
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 4:41 pm : link
the guy is definitely wrong for the job. When Mariano Rivera calls you out as a teammate you're not a guy I want leading the clubhouse.
RE: Holy shit if that's true  
Eric on Li : 5/19/2019 4:52 pm : link
In comment 14449004 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
the guy is definitely wrong for the job. When Mariano Rivera calls you out as a teammate you're not a guy I want leading the clubhouse.


is this just in response to the thought of bvw thinking Cano would be the leader in the clubhouse or did I miss something new?

Re: McNeil I disagree - the guy has a rare and seemingly elite contact skillset. He's young, cheap, versatile, reasonably athletic. It is not at all a stretch to see him being our version of Zobrist, and still on his rookie contract that's enormously valuable. From 2008-2018 Zobrist was the 12th highest fwar in all MLB.

Re: Dunn, Kay's been better than him this year so he almost definitely wouldn't be the 2nd most valuable prospect we have right now. But again, he's got value and I'd much rather have another good pitching prospect than not having one. The overall deal could not look worse for BVW right now.
Yes, it was in response to Cano  
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 5:07 pm : link
being a leader.

You don't have Cano and McNeil on the same team IMO. They both play 2B and the NL does not have a DH yet. McNeil can play elsewhere, but he's a 2B.

I'm not sold on Kay yet (as a top 1 or 2 system prospect), I don't think you adjust prospect rankings based on 8 starts, plus he projects as a bullpen guy from what I've read.
RE: Yes, it was in response to Cano  
Eric on Li : 5/19/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14449027 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
being a leader.

You don't have Cano and McNeil on the same team IMO. They both play 2B and the NL does not have a DH yet. McNeil can play elsewhere, but he's a 2B.

I'm not sold on Kay yet (as a top 1 or 2 system prospect), I don't think you adjust prospect rankings based on 8 starts, plus he projects as a bullpen guy from what I've read.


I'm not really sold on either Dunn or Kay. Both seem like solid depth prospects but probably nothing more (both seem like Aaron Heilman's, not Wheeler/Harvey/Thor). I don't think either of them is close to whoever the 2nd best prospect in the system is right now. I think Law was the only writer who had Kelenic/Dunn 1-2 in the system. Looks like he was very right to be so bullish on Kelenic but Dunn is still having trouble with lefties in AA and the way the market is now if guys like Gio Gonzalez are truly that easy to find on 1 year deals I don't know how much value any back end P prospect has.
So in a barren system  
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 5:25 pm : link
Dunn is at worst 3 or 4.

either way, same point.

and even if Dunn's value is BOR starter, I'd rather seem him every 5th day than Vargas or Font.
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