Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Brief Giants Study I did

CMicks3110 : 5/18/2019 9:38 pm
since 2010, the Giants have had about 4 continuous starters come from pick 75 or later in the draft (including UDFA):

WR-Victor Cruz
LB-BJ Goodson
LB-Devon Kennard
PK-Aldrick Rosas

From 2001-2008 the Giants had

Rich Seubert
David Dieh*l
Gibril Wilson
Reggie Torbor
Derrick Ward
Mario Manningham
Brandon Jacobs
James Butler
Chase Blackburn
Justin Tuck*
Barry Cofield
Kevin Boss
Amed Bradshaw
Zak DeOssie

The Giants also really didn't miss on a high round pick from 2002-2008 outside of William Joseph.

Since 2010, we missed bad on Marvin Austin, David Wilson career ended, plus debacles in the form Ereck Flowers, Eli Apple, Owa Odighizuwa, Damontre Moore, JPP hand blown off, Ruben Randle, Davis Webb, Richburg,

We really only had meaningful contributions from Nicks, Linval (who we let go) Healthy JPP, Hankins (who we let go), OBJ, Collins.

Because of what Gettelman has done in the draft the past 2 seasons, I am quite optimistic about the way we're headed, I don't think he missed on anyone in '18 and i'm quite optimistic about his '19 class. We really need to see if some of his lower round picks and UDFA start to make a difference.

The Patriots for example and comparison, had some really elite players after pick 75 like (David Andrews
J.C. Jackson, Malcom Butler, Marcus Cannon, Shaq Mason, Trey Flowers)
Giants have a ton of young talent right now  
CMicks3110 : 5/18/2019 9:43 pm : link
in terms of quantity and hopefully quality

Jones, Barkley, Shepard, Engram, Hernandez, Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, Baker, Carter, Beal.

That's 11 starters, 9 across 2 drafts and without major investments in Free Agency.

Even 2 acquisitions from late round or waivers pans out, such as C.Coleman, Love, Ballentine, Slayton, Asafo-Adjei, Halapio, McIntosh, Ximenes, then we're hopefully going to be in a good cycle.
Good take  
DavidinBMNY : 5/18/2019 9:46 pm : link
Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.

It's depressing when you consider  
Jay on the Island : 5/18/2019 9:52 pm : link
that Dave Gettleman had more success in the 3rd round of his first draft than Reese and Ross had in 10. BJ Hill and Lorenzo Carter have already shown that they will be long term building blocks. Mario Manningham was Reese's only hit in the 3rd round during his tenure.
RE: Good take  
Jay on the Island : 5/18/2019 9:52 pm : link
In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:
Quote:
Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.

To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.
It is also interesting  
TrueBlue56 : 5/18/2019 9:55 pm : link
That it coincides with Marc Ross being promoted and Gettleman leaving.

Reese and the giants made some big mistakes, but to me the biggest mistake by far was promoting Ross and he proves it more and more with each interview he does with ESPN.
interesting post - I always thought Reese was solid in rd 1  
Eric on Li : 5/18/2019 10:03 pm : link
but this shows exactly why things went off the rails. He generally hit on most of his 1st/2nd rounders and then went 0-decade after that. And obviously once he wasted a couple early picks in Flowers/Apple the house of cards really came crashing down.

For the all the complicated analysis about how much this organization got wrong, in my mind so much of it is articulated in this post. They had a terrible decade of evaluations beyond rounds 1/2, and bad luck with the picks they hit in rounds 1/2 who mostly had short careers. Smith, Nicks, Phillips, JPP, T. Thomas, Beatty etc.
RE: RE: Good take  
eric2425ny : 5/18/2019 10:03 pm : link
In comment 14448433 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:


Quote:


Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.



To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.


This x 1,000,000
that doesn't even include  
CMicks3110 : 5/18/2019 10:03 pm : link
contributors like Kevin Dockery, MIke Matthews, David Tyree, Jay Alford, Derrick Ward, Dave Tollefson, Craig Dahl, Domenik Hixon, Madison Hedgecock, and Michael Johnson.

I'm purposefully leaving out the major free agent signings because I think we've continued to do pretty well in that department.
Why did you pick 2010?  
BH28 : 5/18/2019 10:56 pm : link
If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.
RE: Why did you pick 2010?  
Jay on the Island : 5/18/2019 11:38 pm : link
In comment 14448450 BH28 said:
Quote:
If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.

Because thatís when Gettleman left.
RE: RE: Why did you pick 2010?  
BH28 : 5/19/2019 12:34 am : link
In comment 14448469 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14448450 BH28 said:


Quote:


If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.


Because thatís when Gettleman left.


So are we basically blaming Marc Ross for everything that happened post 2010? Gettleman leaving was the sole reason the Giants have made terrible personnel decisions?

If the correlation is that Gettleman was the glue in the front office for the Giants, then it would be interesting to see how many pick 75 or later ended up being starters on the Panthers.

When we hired Ross I thought it was a bad move  
NY-Fan : 5/19/2019 2:13 am : link
He actually had a poor track record before the Giants. I do believe it would have been much different if Ross was never here. He was absolutely terrible.
DG drafts with the Panthers were strong  
George from PA : 5/19/2019 2:23 am : link

Several late round hog mollie gems.

His choices of WRs were meh.
CMicks,  
Big Blue '56 : 5/19/2019 5:58 am : link
Quote:


The Patriots for example and comparison, had some really elite players after pick 75 like (David Andrews
J.C. Jackson, Malcom Butler, Marcus Cannon, Shaq Mason, Trey Flowers)



The elite players you list are Belichick..:)
RE: RE: RE: Why did you pick 2010?  
Breaker : 5/19/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14448484 BH28 said:
Quote:
In comment 14448469 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448450 BH28 said:


Quote:


If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.


Because thatís when Gettleman left.



So are we basically blaming Marc Ross for everything that happened post 2010? Gettleman leaving was the sole reason the Giants have made terrible personnel decisions?

If the correlation is that Gettleman was the glue in the front office for the Giants, then it would be interesting to see how many pick 75 or later ended up being starters on the Panthers.


Time will tell. But a big thing with me is DG is returning the Giants to the philosophy than won the super bowls. Strong physical offensive line and front seven on defense. Balanced offense so we can run ball especially in red zone. Competent receivers but not outrageous cap allocation to any one of them.

The single most depressing thing over recent years has been the giants getting manhandled physically by teams like the Seahawks, Eagles etc. Several years ago when we shied away from tackling Lynch during the game. Many other teams abused our DL and have stuffed our run consistently. Turning this around is the single biggest key in my mind. Leads to success in all other aspects of game. That and drafting your next QB.

There was no sense of building this foundation under Reese. He once said if he had two equally rated players and one was a skill position and one was a lineman he would choose the skill position every time. That and calling football basketball on grass told you all you need to know. All recent super bowl winners have physical defenses and can run the ball while having a balanced attack.

DG deserves credit for getting us back to a winning philosophy.
Any GM or scout can open up a newspaper or watch TV  
Scuzzlebutt : 5/19/2019 8:28 am : link
and be able to pick the first or second rounders. There are always some hits and misses, but we did ok there with a few notable exceptions.

Picking after round 2 is where the front office earns its money and that was the Giants downfall in recent years. As has been stated, it seems to coincide with Rossí arrival and DGís departure.
In Gettleman we trust, right?  
UberAlias : 5/19/2019 9:25 am : link
I canít seem to recall where that expression originated... it will come to me. I used to laugh at Jets fans always talking up their unknown players and drafts. Funny how the view of things by the fans and everyone else isnít always the same, isnít it?

The jury is very much out in DG and PS. Iíd love to join in and give them the benefit of the doubt, but this is not a team thatís earned that. Far too many questionable decisions need to play themselves out.
RE: interesting post - I always thought Reese was solid in rd 1  
ColHowPepper : 5/19/2019 10:07 am : link
In comment 14448436 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
but this shows exactly why things went off the rails. He generally hit on most of his 1st/2nd rounders and then went 0-decade after that. And obviously once he wasted a couple early picks in Flowers/Apple the house of cards really came crashing down....
Giants ineptitude in the R/R drafts were classic negative feedback loop: the more years they went drafting poorly, the more extreme the talent gaps at key positions (OL being the signature example but far from unique], the more extreme and obvious their needs in successive drafts: over-reaching, drafting for the current year rather than building.
Prior to BJ Hill  
GothamGiants : 5/19/2019 10:42 am : link
The Giants havenít hit on a 3rd round pick since Manningham ... a decade ago.

These pre-DG drafts have been an absolute disaster over the last 5+ years
RE: RE: Good take  
Optimus-NY : 5/19/2019 10:44 am : link
In comment 14448433 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:


Quote:


Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.



To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.


Ross and Chris Mara were the keys to me.
RE: RE: RE: Good take  
Breaker : 5/19/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14448595 Optimus-NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14448433 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:



Quote:


Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.



To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.



Ross and Chris Mara were the keys to me.



Does anyone know why Reese went away from the way Acorsi built the team emphasizing line play, the running game and an overall more physical approach to the game?
breaker  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/19/2019 5:42 pm : link
you are spot on with your post.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why did you pick 2010?  
BH28 : 5/19/2019 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14448532 Breaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14448484 BH28 said:


Quote:


In comment 14448469 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448450 BH28 said:


Quote:


If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.


Because thatís when Gettleman left.



So are we basically blaming Marc Ross for everything that happened post 2010? Gettleman leaving was the sole reason the Giants have made terrible personnel decisions?

If the correlation is that Gettleman was the glue in the front office for the Giants, then it would be interesting to see how many pick 75 or later ended up being starters on the Panthers.




Time will tell. But a big thing with me is DG is returning the Giants to the philosophy than won the super bowls. Strong physical offensive line and front seven on defense. Balanced offense so we can run ball especially in red zone. Competent receivers but not outrageous cap allocation to any one of them.

The single most depressing thing over recent years has been the giants getting manhandled physically by teams like the Seahawks, Eagles etc. Several years ago when we shied away from tackling Lynch during the game. Many other teams abused our DL and have stuffed our run consistently. Turning this around is the single biggest key in my mind. Leads to success in all other aspects of game. That and drafting your next QB.

There was no sense of building this foundation under Reese. He once said if he had two equally rated players and one was a skill position and one was a lineman he would choose the skill position every time. That and calling football basketball on grass told you all you need to know. All recent super bowl winners have physical defenses and can run the ball while having a balanced attack.

DG deserves credit for getting us back to a winning philosophy.


Let's get back to winning before we call it a winning philosophy. Again, before we anoint DG as the reason why the pre-2010 giants were good and the post 2010 giants were not, I'd take a look at the continuous starters the panthers have had from 2011-2017 in the 75+ draft pick position. It's nothing to write home about.

Drafting is hard, just look at the historic hit rates of picks. It could be the giants had a string of good luck to 2010. I think people are trying to hard to pin the giants failures on one singular piece, like DG leaving. It was a systematic failure for years. There is no smoking gun.
link - ( New Window )
and Goodson stinks  
Torrag : 5/19/2019 11:33 pm : link
I'm hoping his replacement is somewhere on the roster right now.
I am pretty happy with what DG has done so far ..  
Bluesbreaker : 5/20/2019 2:20 am : link
This team was a friggen mess and repairing the O-line
isn't easy to do in one season with what he had to work
with . We are headed in the right direction ,
The QB has been chosen and I think they did they right
thing Jones will be a solid pick he just needs to get his feet wet and learn the playbook having Eli here we know
he will have the time to prepare when called upon
sure we still need some pieces but right now I think we
will be very competitive although we have a lot of youth
they are hungry to prove themselves .
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why did you pick 2010?  
Breaker : 5/20/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14449192 BH28 said:
Quote:
In comment 14448532 Breaker said:

The approach is proven regardless of DG drafting prowess. As a said. will see. But the focusis in the right areas. Stop the run. Run the ball. And rush the passer. Thats a proven winning focus.
Quote:


In comment 14448484 BH28 said:


Quote:


In comment 14448469 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448450 BH28 said:


Quote:


If you are going to compare and contrast Reese to Gettleman, you should at least go back to 2007.


Because thatís when Gettleman left.



So are we basically blaming Marc Ross for everything that happened post 2010? Gettleman leaving was the sole reason the Giants have made terrible personnel decisions?

If the correlation is that Gettleman was the glue in the front office for the Giants, then it would be interesting to see how many pick 75 or later ended up being starters on the Panthers.




Time will tell. But a big thing with me is DG is returning the Giants to the philosophy than won the super bowls. Strong physical offensive line and front seven on defense. Balanced offense so we can run ball especially in red zone. Competent receivers but not outrageous cap allocation to any one of them.

The single most depressing thing over recent years has been the giants getting manhandled physically by teams like the Seahawks, Eagles etc. Several years ago when we shied away from tackling Lynch during the game. Many other teams abused our DL and have stuffed our run consistently. Turning this around is the single biggest key in my mind. Leads to success in all other aspects of game. That and drafting your next QB.

There was no sense of building this foundation under Reese. He once said if he had two equally rated players and one was a skill position and one was a lineman he would choose the skill position every time. That and calling football basketball on grass told you all you need to know. All recent super bowl winners have physical defenses and can run the ball while having a balanced attack.

DG deserves credit for getting us back to a winning philosophy.



Let's get back to winning before we call it a winning philosophy. Again, before we anoint DG as the reason why the pre-2010 giants were good and the post 2010 giants were not, I'd take a look at the continuous starters the panthers have had from 2011-2017 in the 75+ draft pick position. It's nothing to write home about.

Drafting is hard, just look at the historic hit rates of picks. It could be the giants had a string of good luck to 2010. I think people are trying to hard to pin the giants failures on one singular piece, like DG leaving. It was a systematic failure for years. There is no smoking gun. link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: Good take  
justafan : 5/21/2019 12:15 am : link
In comment 14448631 Breaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14448595 Optimus-NY said:


Quote:


In comment 14448433 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:



Quote:


Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.



To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.



Ross and Chris Mara were the keys to me.




Does anyone know why Reese went away from the way Acorsi built the team emphasizing line play, the running game and an overall more physical approach to the game?


First year as GM wins it all and part of that was due to the contributions of his 2007 rookie class. Wins it all again in 2011 confirming what he's doing. He put a damn fine WR core in place for that ran and Eli mad it happen. But 2011 was the last gasp of the defensive and offensive lines. Success can go to your head.

Look at how much more competitive Seattle has remained over a 7 year stretch compared to the Giants under Reese. Six playoff appearances out of 7 seasons and back-to-back Super Bowl appearances with one championship. They eventually had to pay Wilson (twice now) and have lost most of that original core. But they keep on trucking and have done it against good San Francisco teams and now LA Rams.

Pete Carol has missed the playoffs twice in his nine seasons, granted one of those was a 7-9 appearance, but they did win a playoff game in that appearance. In those appearances they have been one and done only once.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Good take  
GothamGiants : 5/21/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14450606 justafan said:
Quote:
In comment 14448631 Breaker said:


Quote:


In comment 14448595 Optimus-NY said:


Quote:


In comment 14448433 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14448430 DavidinBMNY said:



Quote:


Interesting to see the data of how badd Ross /Reese were.



To this day I wonder how different Reese's tenure would have gone had he never hired Marc Ross.



Ross and Chris Mara were the keys to me.




Does anyone know why Reese went away from the way Acorsi built the team emphasizing line play, the running game and an overall more physical approach to the game?



First year as GM wins it all and part of that was due to the contributions of his 2007 rookie class. Wins it all again in 2011 confirming what he's doing. He put a damn fine WR core in place for that ran and Eli mad it happen. But 2011 was the last gasp of the defensive and offensive lines. Success can go to your head.

Look at how much more competitive Seattle has remained over a 7 year stretch compared to the Giants under Reese. Six playoff appearances out of 7 seasons and back-to-back Super Bowl appearances with one championship. They eventually had to pay Wilson (twice now) and have lost most of that original core. But they keep on trucking and have done it against good San Francisco teams and now LA Rams.

Pete Carol has missed the playoffs twice in his nine seasons, granted one of those was a 7-9 appearance, but they did win a playoff game in that appearance. In those appearances they have been one and done only once.


SEAís offensive line has been as bad/worse than ours in recent years ... the difference is they had a great mobile QB playing on a rookie deal for most of that time while weíve had an immobile 30+ year old eating up a ton of cap room.

Itís a whole lot easier to build a competitive team when your paying your star QB 3M over 4 years ... and that QB can actually make plays on his own. Now that Wilson is being paid, they keep on trucking because Russel Wilson is a much better player than Eli Manning

A mobile QB covers up a lot of weaknesses, and Wilson is simply more capable of creating plays on his own. This isnít anti-Eli, and certainly not pro-Reese ... more of a testament to how good Russel Wilson is.

Heís an incredible player and the primary reason SEA remains competitive. He covers up a lot of that teams deficiencies - because he has the athletic ability to make plays that Eli (and a lot of other QBs) physically cant.
Back to the Corner