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NGT: Matt Ryan and Phillip Rivers

Brown Recluse : 5/19/2019 10:34 am
Emory Hunt mentioned on Twitter that Matt Ryans career will be looked on more favorably after he retires than it is currently and considers him a HOF caliber QB. Someone responded pointing out his career similarities to Phillip Rivers, yet Rivers gets the credit he deserves.

I thought it was an interesting comparison and example of how perception often trumps reality. Two QB’s with similar statistics and career success. But one is often viewed very differently than the other.

Fair comparison? Is Ryan underrated as a QB? If not, does that mean Rivers is overrated? Are they both HoF candidates?



...  
GothamGiants : 5/19/2019 10:40 am : link
Neither of them are HOFers in my eyes

Good QBs, nowhere near “all time greats”
Once players retire  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 10:40 am : link
and the grace period is over, voters look back on their careers a bit more objectively. In the moment articles and opinions are written to drum up buzz. That fades when a player is retired.

I don’t think Matt Ryan is a clutch QB and shouldn’t be in the HoF but by the end his stats will get him in most likely.
RE: ...  
CV36 : 5/19/2019 10:58 am : link
In comment 14448590 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
Neither of them are HOFers in my eyes

Good QBs, nowhere near “all time greats”


This. Well put.
No Super Bowl appearances for  
MBavaro : 5/19/2019 11:01 am : link
Rivers, yet.

Ryan would be better off to be in the same category after 28-3, whether or not it was his fault. Voters will always have that in the back of their head.

They are not HOF's right now.
Rivers definitely in  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 11:06 am : link
he will have 400 tds after this season most likely. Coupled with a better than 2:1 ratio and hovering around 60,000 yards, he’s as much a lock as you’ll find from someone who didn’t win a title.
Ryan Choked in the SuperBowl with the sack  
ZogZerg : 5/19/2019 11:07 am : link
Rivers Chokes in the playoffs
They are both good at compiling stats
Ryan stills has some good years left to prove himself.
Rivers has a STACKED team this year. He needs to get to the Superbowl this year. If he can do that and win it, he is a lock.
Matty Ice can thank stiffs like  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/19/2019 11:45 am : link
Kirk Cousins and Dak grabbing the most over rated QB title.

Ryan IMO is much better than both but not HOF worthy. Very good and meaningless stats rule today. . For the the shit that Eli gets Ryan sucked when his OL was total shit. If Ryan is a HOF guy then Eli is by a wide margin
Neither one of them has ever done anything  
arniefez : 5/19/2019 11:47 am : link
worth even mentioning them for the HOF.
I think both Qb’s are very good  
Festina Lente : 5/19/2019 11:50 am : link
I believe they are both underrated in their own way (people overshoot criticism of Matt Ryan) I think Rivers is a HOF QB that spent most of his career in a disfunctional club. Ryan is not a hof in my eyes.
Unless you have “elite” numbers  
superspynyg : 5/19/2019 11:50 am : link
Like Dan Marino do you deserve to be hit the hall of fame without a Super Bowl win?
RE: Unless you have “elite” numbers  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14448647 superspynyg said:
Quote:
Like Dan Marino do you deserve to be hit the hall of fame without a Super Bowl win?


At this point it’s subjective. Fact is Rivers is getting in, I’d bet my savings on it. Ryan probably does too, but I wouldn’t put money down on it.
The bar is set low  
UberAlias : 5/19/2019 11:57 am : link
If we’re looking at them as all time greats.
Rivers IN - Ryan OUT -- right now but  
giantstock : 5/19/2019 12:01 pm : link
Give Ryn a few more years at the pace he's going and a bit more playoff success then I'd put him in. I think Rivers gets in because of last season -- then you look back and realize he was a stud.

Ryan just needs a few more years with some playoff success.
Or one very, very big year with playoff success.
RE: The bar is set low  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14448651 UberAlias said:
Quote:
If we’re looking at them as all time greats.


If all time greats is your criteria than maybe not. But non all time greats get in all the time so that’s what I’m going off of.
If Rivers is "in", is Eli also?  
JohnB : 5/19/2019 12:32 pm : link
.
Ryan  
WillVAB : 5/19/2019 12:56 pm : link
Is extremely overrated. That organization has bent over backwards to surround him with talent up front and at the skill positions yet they have nothing to show for it.
RE: RE: The bar is set low  
UberAlias : 5/19/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14448666 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14448651 UberAlias said:


Quote:


If we’re looking at them as all time greats.



If all time greats is your criteria than maybe not. But non all time greats get in all the time so that’s what I’m going off of.
They do get in all the time. Hence the bar is low. They've got a long list of HOF QBs lined up: Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, Luck, Wilson. They'll be hearing arguments for Romo, Ryan, Stafford, Newton. Then I'm sure we'll see a list from the young crop Mahomes, et al. Are there really that many hall of famers?
Matt Ryan...  
bw in dc : 5/19/2019 1:07 pm : link
should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.
RE: If Rivers is  
giantstock : 5/19/2019 1:14 pm : link
In comment 14448682 JohnB said:
Quote:
.


Eli is in.
RE: RE: RE: The bar is set low  
giantstock : 5/19/2019 1:19 pm : link
In comment 14448713 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14448666 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


In comment 14448651 UberAlias said:


Quote:


If we’re looking at them as all time greats.



If all time greats is your criteria than maybe not. But non all time greats get in all the time so that’s what I’m going off of.

They do get in all the time. Hence the bar is low. They've got a long list of HOF QBs lined up: Peyton, Brady, Brees, Ben, Eli, Rivers, Rodgers, Luck, Wilson. They'll be hearing arguments for Romo, Ryan, Stafford, Newton. Then I'm sure we'll see a list from the young crop Mahomes, et al. Are there really that many hall of famers?


No to Romo and so far no to Stafford.
Romo didn’t play long enough  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 1:22 pm : link
and doesn’t even have a post season resume, let alone anything close to “almost a super bowl” that at least Ryan has. Had he played a few more years he’d probably get the stats to get in.
RE: Romo didn’t play long enough  
giantstock : 5/19/2019 1:51 pm : link
In comment 14448749 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and doesn’t even have a post season resume, let alone anything close to “almost a super bowl” that at least Ryan has. Had he played a few more years he’d probably get the stats to get in.


Stafford is not close either.
...  
christian : 5/19/2019 2:10 pm : link
Ryan has missed 2 games in his career and is 30 games over .500.

If he plays out his career on that trajectory and he eclipses 70K yards and 450TDs, and wins 150 games, he's getting in the HOF on the first ballet.
RE: Unless you have “elite” numbers  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/19/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14448647 superspynyg said:
Quote:
Like Dan Marino do you deserve to be hit the hall of fame without a Super Bowl win?

Marino had elite numbers that were best in the league and drastically better than almost everyone.

In comparison, Ryan and Rivers numbers are almost pedestrian nowadays, numbers a top 10 questions puts up.
RE: Romo didn’t play long enough  
UberAlias : 5/19/2019 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14448749 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
and doesn’t even have a post season resume, let alone anything close to “almost a super bowl” that at least Ryan has. Had he played a few more years he’d probably get the stats to get in.
I’d say no to a lot more than that. But there is going to be degrees debate about these guys.
I think both are borderline  
Bockman : 5/19/2019 4:10 pm : link
but Rivers deserves it more than Ryan.
If they get into the HoF Eli surely is a HoF qb!  
SterlingArcher : 5/19/2019 4:13 pm : link
.
...  
christian : 5/19/2019 4:21 pm : link
If this is a numbers debate, and Rivers is getting called pedestrian I'll assume you just haven't looked at the numbers, which with a great statistical year last and a good team will go up.

Rivers:
64.5 completion % (9th all time)
54,656 yards (8th all time)
374 TDs (6th all time)
95.6 Passer Rating (8th all time)

It's a passing era, and Rivers arguably overall numbers wise is 3rd behind Brady and Brees in overall productivity.

Being 3rd in an era is like saying Warren Moon isn't a Hall of Famer because Marino and Elway had better numbers.
Rivers is a lock  
UConn4523 : 5/19/2019 4:25 pm : link
I have no idea what some of you are talking about. I really don’t even like him, but he’s had a stellar career playing for a poorly run franchise in a shit hole sports town.
Rivers is the goods  
JerseyCityJoe : 5/19/2019 5:04 pm : link
Matt Ryan JAG in my view.
Rivers is going to the HOF...  
M.S. : 5/19/2019 5:14 pm : link

...depend upon it.
Rivers  
Lines of Scrimmage : 5/19/2019 5:28 pm : link
and Ryan will most likely get in but quite a few years down the road unless they win a Super Bowl.

One thing the majority of QB's who are in or will be in is Super Bowls. Rivers has played on plenty of very talented teams (LDT, Gates, Jackson, etc.) Atlanta has built much more heavily on the offensive side. Both are still ringless.

Regarding stats; I think the HOF is going to have to start looking at QB's differently. Almost half the league had QB's with over 4k yards. Scoring is up, rules favor passing, and QB's are playing longer than ever before since they are so well protected which has led to much longer careers and total numbers.

If I were to ask you 15 years from now something like tell me a signature moment for Ryan or Rivers what would it be?

Someone like Eli and many of those in have those defining moments.
RE: Matt Ryan...  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/19/2019 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14448729 bw in dc said:
Quote:
should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.


You shit in Eli in 100s of thread and a guy who has had Tony G and Julio Jones to make him look good should waltz into Canton. Congrats. Opinions can vary but you need to go to AA. Quick
...  
christian : 5/19/2019 6:26 pm : link
What are Marino's, Moon's, and Kelly's defining moments? Marino and Kelly are more known for the games they lost.

As far as stats, the only active guys not in the top 10 in the major categories threatening to get there are Ryan, Rodgers, and Stafford. Like it or not those guys have been insanely consistent.

Maybe Ryan and Stafford will be viewed differently by history and a different measuring stick. And maybe Rodgers as well. If he called it quits or injuries cut his career now, he's a no question HOFer, right?

The game definitely favors the QB now, but conversely QB is far more important and impactful than any other position.

It's difficult to ever imagine voters looking at a guy who plays 15 years, has a great winning percentage, and is top 10 in the major categories and saying no.
Both Rivers and Ryan will moonwalk into the HOF  
Go Terps : 5/19/2019 6:36 pm : link
.
RE: RE: Matt Ryan...  
bw in dc : 5/19/2019 7:50 pm : link
In comment 14449077 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 14448729 bw in dc said:


Quote:


should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.



You shit in Eli in 100s of thread and a guy who has had Tony G and Julio Jones to make him look good should waltz into Canton. Congrats. Opinions can vary but you need to go to AA. Quick


Which HoF QB didn't have excellent players around him? So Ryan isn't some outlier there. That's just such a silly, lazy argument.

I've been slow to come around on Ryan because I think indoor QBs have an advantage. So you have to study their splits, especially indoor/outdoor, home/road, etc, and by and large Ryan is very solid. He has a winning record, 63%+ completion, and a better than 2:1 TD/INT ratio on the road (more career TDs on the road).




sorry bw but in this era  
BigBlueCane : 5/19/2019 8:14 pm : link
of inflated Offensive stats, the one thing that still carries the most weight are SB rings.

...  
christian : 5/19/2019 8:40 pm : link
If Ryan stays healthy into his late 30s he's got a shot to hit 70K/400TDs -- which would put him with Peyton, Brees, Favre, and Brady.

The only player who's going to sniff that for a while is Rodgers.
When it's all said done,  
Mike in Long Beach : 5/20/2019 10:10 am : link
Matt Ryan has an outside chance at having the most passing yards of all time. Say he plays through age 40 and averaged 4000 yards per year until then--and for context on that, since 2010, his 3 worst seasons have been 4095, 4177, and 4515--that'd be 74,720 passing yards. That would give him the most ever by 35 yards (though granted, Drew Brees will inevitably be throwing for more yards).

But my point, there's a very realistic chance of Matt Ryan retires in the Top 3 of all time in passing yards and Top 5 in passing touchdowns.

The whole point of the OP here is that the perception of Matt Ryan is smudging the facts. And the facts are, if he continues on the trajectory he's currently on, he's going to be one of the best quarterbacks of all time and should be in the Hall of Fame, regardless of how we all "feel" about him.
Difficult to use the tag “all time great” so loosely based on  
Jimmy Googs : 5/20/2019 10:16 am : link
certain candidates that make it every year, but anybody on this thread that thinks Rivers and Ryan aren’t going to be in the HOF is a chucklehead...
If Matt Ryan  
Harvest Blend : 5/20/2019 10:42 am : link
makes the HOF they should shut it down.
RE: sorry bw but in this era  
UConn4523 : 5/20/2019 11:15 am : link
In comment 14449148 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
of inflated Offensive stats, the one thing that still carries the most weight are SB rings.


I don't agree. Everyone is going to be compared against their peers so if stats are to be had, then we will know who's got more than who on a pretty even playing field.

Superbowls matter more when the stats aren't there (see Terrell Davis).
Just for..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 11:21 am : link
some perspective, bw has been on record saying Eli is not a certain HoF'er:

Quote:
Matt Ryan...
bw in dc : 5/19/2019 1:07 pm : link : reply
should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.


This just cements the bias.
RE: RE: RE: Matt Ryan...  
LauderdaleMatty : 5/20/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14449136 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14449077 LauderdaleMatty said:


Quote:


In comment 14448729 bw in dc said:


Quote:


should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.



You shit in Eli in 100s of thread and a guy who has had Tony G and Julio Jones to make him look good should waltz into Canton. Congrats. Opinions can vary but you need to go to AA. Quick



Which HoF QB didn't have excellent players around him? So Ryan isn't some outlier there. That's just such a silly, lazy argument.

I've been slow to come around on Ryan because I think indoor QBs have an advantage. So you have to study their splits, especially indoor/outdoor, home/road, etc, and by and large Ryan is very solid. He has a winning record, 63%+ completion, and a better than 2:1 TD/INT ratio on the road (more career TDs on the road).





Lol. Excellent or HOF worthy also. Ryan sucked when he had a shitty and no running game. They. Get better at both and he’s great again. But when Eli is surrounded by trans he sucks.

Got it.
RE: Just for..  
bw in dc : 5/20/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14449761 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
some perspective, bw has been on record saying Eli is not a certain HoF'er:



Quote:


Matt Ryan...
bw in dc : 5/19/2019 1:07 pm : link : reply
should waltz into Canton. Guy has an MVP, great stats, solid QBR, very good W/L record, and should have a SB if not for some poor coaching down the stretch. If you look at his playoff stats, especially in 2016, his numbers are very good, too.



This just cements the bias.


What bias? I never brought up Eli in this discussion. I suggest you take a deeper dive on Ryan's numbers. They are very good vis-a-vis his peers.
The bias..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 12:19 pm : link
that Ryan is a shoo-in while Eli might make it if he's lucky.
RE: The bias..  
bw in dc : 5/20/2019 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14449841 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that Ryan is a shoo-in while Eli might make it if he's lucky.


Eli will likely get in - because of the weight of the SB wins over New England - but it's not unreasonable at all to say there are significant holes in Eli's resume that could make it a struggle.

His regular season numbers by themselves don't validate a HoF QB, IMV, especially in this era where the QB has never been more protected and it's never been easier to be a wide receiver.
So like I said...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 12:41 pm : link
Ryan "waltzes" in, while Eli could get in if the holes in his resume don't get in the way.......

Falcon's running game and O-line had plenty of problems  
Jimmy Googs : 5/20/2019 4:16 pm : link
in 2018 with RB injuries and other issues.

Thought Ryan's game, at least from a statistical perspective, was off the charts. No?
RE: If Rivers is  
FStubbs : 5/20/2019 10:44 pm : link
In comment 14448682 JohnB said:
Quote:
.


No way. Eli will have 3 things going against him.

1 - anti NY bias
2 - losing career record
3 - lack of respect around the league (most players in the league seem to see Eli as a Rex Grossman level QB who got lucky twice)

Eli's candidacy was hurt a lot when Nick Foles beat the Patriots. I think if the Eagles lose that game, Eli would get in based solely on being the only one to beat Brady. He'd need to somehow get a third ring to get in IMO.
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