Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
I did not Know the NK was not in the books.
Interesting. But then I will Change it to Bran somehow creating/ressurecting the NK to kill Dany. He saw the creationof the NK in a vision. (At leastin the show)
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
I did not Know the NK was not in the books.
Interesting. But then I will Change it to Bran somehow creating/ressurecting the NK to kill Dany. He saw the creationof the NK in a vision. (At leastin the show)
The NK in theory could be introduced in Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring. But there is already a book character called the Night's King that is different from the Night King, so I doubt it.
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
The show is a cash cow. Let's not make excuses for Benioff and Weiss.
Maybe? Could be? I don't have a fooking clue!
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
Maybe? Could be? I don't have a fooking clue!
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
Gonna be disappointing if Arya doesn’t pull a Faceless Men and put on the face of someone else.
Maybe? Could be? I don't have a fooking clue!
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
Gonna be disappointing if Arya doesn’t pull a Faceless Men and put on the face of someone else.
Yes, Arya learned all these crazy skills in the House of Black and White and has basically only used them to kill Walder Frey. Another failure of the writers.
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
Personally I am enjoying it but I understand what the criticism is. But with that said the one thing that I will criticize is that HBO went to them and offered the time and money to make this a full season even with extended episodes and D&D refused which tells me they were ready to be done with it and move on to the next Star Wars trilogy
Personally I am enjoying it but I understand what the criticism is. But with that said the one thing that I will criticize is that HBO went to them and offered the time and money to make this a full season even with extended episodes and D&D refused which tells me they were ready to be done with it and move on to the next Star Wars trilogy
Agreed. I think these last 2 years were a big writing challenge for them getting so far beyond the source material and they just wanted to end it as simply as they could. S6 was beyond the source material, but all the starting points were setup. Over the normal 10 episodes each major thing that happened got it's own episode and room to breathe. Not everything was perfect, but most of it was well done (the door, sansa/jon, etc) and some of it excellent (finale).
S7 was a contrived plot rush to setup S8 in a certain way, and now S8 has been a sprint to wrap up 10-20 characters plots 7+ years in development. Some worked, far more didn't due to rushed sloppiness - which as you mentioned was their choice. There would have been risks extending it to more episodes also, like dragging things out too much, but at this point it's hard to argue they made the right choice. I think splitting up the 2 major plot resolutions north/south over 2 separate seasons may have been better. S7 could have easily been entirely focused on resolving the white walker storyline, kept Cersei in the south trying to find a way to strengthen her armies, and then let S8 focus on the entire march south.
RE: Petition to redo Season 8 now at 1 million signatures Â
They need a redo on both 7 & 8. S7 should have been all about Jon convincing Dany to go North and concluding with the battle of winterfell and their forces weakened as Cersei built up her forces in the south. Then s8 could have entirely focused on the battle for KL and the political maneuvering in westeros.
Just read the finale length was changed twice recently Â
First four minutes removed then seven minutes added plus Kit Harington had to miss a charity event for a meeting with the writers and I think HBO. Could of been planned all along to throw off leakers but who knows at this point
On BBI, I was one of the original people who said this season has been subpar, but I feel strongly that people are now overreacting. The epitome of this is the petition to have HBO produce season 8 all over again. (Don't get me started on the over-inflated, narcissistic mentality of the social media warrior who thinks his/her opinion means a damn thing).
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
On BBI, I was one of the original people who said this season has been subpar, but I feel strongly that people are now overreacting. The epitome of this is the petition to have HBO produce season 8 all over again. (Don't get me started on the over-inflated, narcissistic mentality of the social media warrior who thinks his/her opinion means a damn thing).
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
2 thoughts -
1) I don't think anyone actually signs petitions expecting anything to happen. I'd venture to guess 99% of people who signed it think it's a joke.
2) the bolded part above is more than little pot calling the kettle black considering all of us here have been inflicted with the same silly notion that our opinions matter about a host of things for 20 years now. It's kind of the entire premise of a message board, which is basically just longer form social media.
And I don't think it is a joke. Have you seen the online reaction videos of people actually breaking down and crying or acting like someone just shot their dog?
How many parents have named their babies after Daenerys?
We're talking about people who are having a hard time separating fictional entertainment with reality.
And I don't think it is a joke. Have you seen the online reaction videos of people actually breaking down and crying or acting like someone just shot their dog?
How many parents have named their babies after Daenerys?
We're talking about people who are having a hard time separating fictional entertainment with reality.
Did you see the videos after Daniel Jones was drafted? Have you seen the videos of that 50 something year old giants fan Vic ranting and raving over the past several years? Have you seen sports fans literally pay money to fly planes with banners or buy billboard space to get coaches fired? Is that behavior really all that different just because the subject in question is a different genre of entertainment?
On BBI, I was one of the original people who said this season has been subpar, but I feel strongly that people are now overreacting. The epitome of this is the petition to have HBO produce season 8 all over again. (Don't get me started on the over-inflated, narcissistic mentality of the social media warrior who thinks his/her opinion means a damn thing).
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
2 thoughts -
1) I don't think anyone actually signs petitions expecting anything to happen. I'd venture to guess 99% of people who signed it think it's a joke.
2) the bolded part above is more than little pot calling the kettle black considering all of us here have been inflicted with the same silly notion that our opinions matter about a host of things for 20 years now. It's kind of the entire premise of a message board, which is basically just longer form social media.
I don't use BBI thinking/hoping that the Giants give a rat's ass what I think. I come here to discuss football and other non-football topics with Giants fans I have come to know (digitally) over the years. I think it's a pretty big difference.
storyline wise. I think most people who are upset and want the whole season redone are Dany fans who hated seeing their beloved queen essentially turn to the dark side. But if you're upset by that, you haven't been paying attention to the story from the beginning or you're just upset that a strong woman isn't finishing on top. The real issue for me is how rushed everything feels in this season. There's no way they can conclude everything in tonight's episode and make it feel right, no matter what happens. Everything needs more time - what Jon is going to do, how everyone settles in after the fact of whatever happens, setting up what characters might do in the future after this, etc.
It really feels like last weeks episode should've been a season finale and that there should be one more season. To know they're going to squeeze a bunch of character's outcomes into 80 minutes feels ridiculous. I've been watching from the very beginning so I'm excited for the episode but at the same time, there's a little bit of dread knowing there's almost zero chance they can do this justice with how rushed it is. I don't mind their writing that much, some of the decisions are stupid, but the real issue with Benioff and Weiss is them trying to fit everything into one season when they needed at least two more. It just shows terrible foresight from them that they didn't see this reaction coming and that they thought they could pull it off after having so many people get invested in their show for so long. It deserved a little more time. But oh well. Here we are. Let's see how they finish it.
Yes, people have too much time on their hands. But the complaints, petitions, etc. aren't just the result of some snowflake revolution. The writing has been bad for a few years now and any hope of pulling out of the nosedive is gone. My expectations have been low for a while now, but I think the reality is setting in now for many.
Breaking Bad lived in the internet age, and while not everyone was completely satisfied with the end, there wasn't a giant petition to reshoot anything. I don't think most of those million signers really expect a reshoot of season 8.
They're voicing their displeasure. To write off their opinions as some sign of the times is excuse making for what used to be a pretty tightly written show in my opinion.
Yes, people have too much time on their hands. But the complaints, petitions, etc. aren't just the result of some snowflake revolution. The writing has been bad for a few years now and any hope of pulling out of the nosedive is gone. My expectations have been low for a while now, but I think the reality is setting in now for many.
Breaking Bad lived in the internet age, and while not everyone was completely satisfied with the end, there wasn't a giant petition to reshoot anything. I don't think most of those million signers really expect a reshoot of season 8.
They're voicing their displeasure. To write off their opinions as some sign of the times is excuse making for what used to be a pretty tightly written show in my opinion.
I'm hear for your outrage over the outrage over the outrage.
Jokes aside, parts of it do feel a little rushed, but I've thoroughly enjoyed it. (Euron sucks, was anyone even remotely afraid of that guy?)
They need a redo on both 7 & 8. S7 should have been all about Jon convincing Dany to go North and concluding with the battle of winterfell and their forces weakened as Cersei built up her forces in the south. Then s8 could have entirely focused on the battle for KL and the political maneuvering in westeros.
That would have been more sensible.
Jon kills Dany. (Arya a possibility with that face things she does) Â
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
Couldn’t agree more.
This season has sucked. First 2 episodes could’ve been 1 episode, the battle goes from epic to “let’s have Arya come out of nowhere and end 7 seasons of impending doom in 5 seconds” ... The Lannister storyline, especially Jamie, was awful ...
The cgi on the dragons has been beautiful. I’ve pretty much hated everything about this season otherwise, so formulaic and predictable at times. Amazing how bad the writing gets once the book’s author is doing the work for them.
And no one sits on the iron throne. I laid my thoughts out on last week's thread, but basically the 7 realms become independent - lead by Sansa, Tyrion, Gendry, Yara, Robin Arryn, the unnamed Prince of Dorne, and Bronn.
And no one sits on the iron throne. I laid my thoughts out on last week's thread, but basically the 7 realms become independent - lead by Sansa, Tyrion, Gendry, Yara, Robin Arryn, the unnamed Prince of Dorne, and Bronn.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
What would he save her from? That story arc is all but done.
What a bunch of hokey, sentimental garbage. That last episode was thoroughly unenjoyable, just like the rest of the season (with the exception of the penultimate episode).
Oh well, I’m sure some people loved the last 3 episodes and especially this finale. More power to them. I would rather love and feel thrilled more than feel let down any day of the week.
all of those people to death. Dany should've just let the Night King kill them all, especially Sansa.
Drogon sees his mother die and instead of burning the person who killed her, Drogon knows that the cause of her downfall was the Iron Throne so he burns it. Awesome. Nice to know a dragon has that kind of awareness.
That's about as forced of a poetic justice as I've ever seen
The entire show made perfect sense. From Tyrion's reaction and throwing down his hand emblem, to Dany sentencing him to death, to the conversation between Jon and Tyrion, to Jon finally realizing that she had to die for the sake of humanity.
The entire show made perfect sense. From Tyrion's reaction and throwing down his hand emblem, to Dany sentencing him to death, to the conversation between Jon and Tyrion, to Jon finally realizing that she had to die for the sake of humanity.
The end of this story feels very much to me as a study steeped in existential nihilism. These characters are insignificant in the grand scheme of things and Westeros is actually a never-ending dystopia set in a fantasy world.
I guess it's about as happy as any of them can hope for in the world they live in.
I feel like I was watching the end of a sappy comedy
I took some heat for criticizing the writing last week...I’m sure there will be some here who absolutely loved this finale and will be upset in those who don’t. But that is okay....there are some here who are also mad at me for loving our draft and our future phenom qb. I have thick skin.
The end of this story feels very much to me as a study steeped in existential nihilism. These characters are insignificant in the grand scheme of things and Westeros is actually a never-ending dystopia set in a fantasy world.
I guess it's about as happy as any of them can hope for in the world they live in.
That's what history is.
I'd argue her downfall was giving a shit about any of these people. Â
Dany, the dragons, the Dothraki, and Unsullied did the heavy lifting against the supposed existential threat in the Night King, then everyone said, "Thank GOD" she's gone.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
the dragons had a connection to Jon to. Perhaps you missed that?
He. Killed. His. Mother.
A few seasons ago, Tyrian said something that dragons are as intelligent as humans, if not more. The dragon knew the throne was her downfall and cause of all the wars. So he burned it.
Predictable in the sense that there was no way Dany could sit on the thrown. That was predestined, unless you wanted EVERYONE ELSE to die.
Again, that was expected. Everyone and their mother knew Dany was a goner this episode. But the rest of the episode? Sentimental garbage that was not at all in tune with the previous seasons. That was the good thing about GoT: they cut out the generic, typical Hollywood bullshit and replaced it with raw honesty and realism. This felt like a Hollywood ending if ever there was one.
Dany, the dragons, the Dothraki, and Unsullied did the heavy lifting against the supposed existential threat in the Night King, then everyone said, "Thank GOD" she's gone.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
Wow, you're really wrapped up in this fictional character Dany, aren't you? Relative of the actress?
Was fine. How they got there In the last season was atrocious.
When I realized the scene In front of the tribunal wasn’t a dream of Tyrion’s and it was really happening I thought maybe Bron would turn into the NK. Then it just kept going where it was heading. It’s the how they got to the end that was just flat.
Dany, the dragons, the Dothraki, and Unsullied did the heavy lifting against the supposed existential threat in the Night King, then everyone said, "Thank GOD" she's gone.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
Wow, you're really wrapped up in this fictional character Dany, aren't you? Relative of the actress?
You're commenting on a fictional show too. Don't pretend you're on a higher plane of rationality.
Was it a great ending...no. They tied a pretty bow on what became a poorly written show. No one can be terribly upset at the ending...but it feels like they gave up.
a Grey worm vs John Snow boss fight. But how they ended the story is fine with everybody going their own way really no other way to wrap up the show any better then they did.
The only thing I didn't like was grey worm being appeased so easily. It always seemed to me the unsullied, being eunochs don't want sex, don't want power, don't want material gain, they just want a leaser to be loyal to and orders to follow - they seemed to take pride in their slavery.
thought that was kind of weak.
I wish Bran spoke more, seems like every time he opens his mouth it's like "Confucius says..."
not what I predicted or expected, but no real complaints that are impactful.
better ending than many shows that went this long.
That's how I feel. I didn't expect them to sum things up that well in one episode, not that it was something great or amazing but they tied stuff together well enough considering what they had to work with.
Wasn't an amazing finale but it wasn't the worst piece of shit ever which is what most people will say. Most people will be pissed off because characters didn't end up where they wanted them to, though. I think the worst send off was arya's. I guess it's the only thing that makes sense for her character but it's just kind of lame. On the flip side, it's nice to see those characters end up on the council at the end.
The entire show made perfect sense. From Tyrion's reaction and throwing down his hand emblem, to Dany sentencing him to death, to the conversation between Jon and Tyrion, to Jon finally realizing that she had to die for the sake of humanity.
Eric I’m glad you loved it but the whole world knew this ending would happen save Bran become top ruler.
Like I previously said I’m glad you few people out there who liked it, can go to sleep with a big smile of contentment. For what it’s worth, I’m sure this will be the lowest rated episode of all of them.
got nothing for tonight. I can’t believe anyone enjoyed that episode or this season.
My only surprise/gripe was the Bran/Jon angle. Thought Jon should have been the kind but then people would have just said it was even more obvious and predictable. In the end, the Starks all ended up going out the way they wanted it seemed.
The Dany/Dragon stuff prior was perfect. We all knew she had to die and Jon was likely the guy to do it. They executed it well.
Might have helped if Dany had dismissed the Queen’s Guard to allow her a private audience with Jon. Her scene alone in the throne room was more like a vision from the House of Black & White than anything close to reality. So that was dumb, but they topped it in the Dragon Pit. Yikes.
I actually liked the Small Council meeting. Nice reminder that after all the big drama of war and magic, there are bills to pay and a kingdom to rebuild, as there were after Robert’s rebellion and all the wars before and since. As Joffrey’s Hand, Tyrion was just keeping the seat warm for Tywin. Now he’s really doing the job, and might be ready for it.
The final montage was OK. Missed opportunities there, especially the chance to show a visual clue about the White Walker Spirogram as Jon rose north with the Wildlings.
I would say that was the only scene that will stick out as memorable Â
Arya goes on to do whatever the hell she wants...
Bran/ Tyrion/ Sansa et al, sentence john to a nigt's watch that doesn't exist and allows him to live the way he was happiest: north of the wall. Bran being king... whatever, but at least Sansa declared her independence. I really thought this was a great ending to a phenomenal series. And not for nothing, but those of you that are complaining about the last 2 seasons shouldn't be bitching to the showrunners, you should be banging down the door of GRRM. It doesn't take six fucking years to write a book.
The only thing I didn't like was grey worm being appeased so easily. It always seemed to me the unsullied, being eunochs don't want sex, don't want power, don't want material gain, they just want a leaser to be loyal to and orders to follow - they seemed to take pride in their slavery.
thought that was kind of weak.
I wish Bran spoke more, seems like every time he opens his mouth it's like "Confucius says..."
not what I predicted or expected, but no real complaints that are impactful.
better ending than many shows that went this long.
Well said.
RE: RE: Thought they tied it up the best they could Â
That's how I feel. I didn't expect them to sum things up that well in one episode, not that it was something great or amazing but they tied stuff together well enough considering what they had to work with.
Wasn't an amazing finale but it wasn't the worst piece of shit ever which is what most people will say. Most people will be pissed off because characters didn't end up where they wanted them to, though. I think the worst send off was arya's. I guess it's the only thing that makes sense for her character but it's just kind of lame. On the flip side, it's nice to see those characters end up on the council at the end.
Arya didn't want to rule so it made sense she would want to explore/discover the world. Agree with your sentiment.
the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
I'm as critical as they come. My wife sometimes "lovingly" calls me "the bitcher."
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now. I'm not sure what some of you expected. This show was always going to have a bittersweet ending... it was just a matter of who lived and who died. Most of the characters were tragic in nature.
Most of the character arcs felt "right." It felt right for Jamie to die with Cersi. It felt right for Sansa to become queen (of the north). It felt right for Arya to go off on her own. Dany's end was predestined.
After a weak middle, I thought they ended strong. I now want to re-watch it all again to pick up the cues, which are there.
Anyone surprised they had never gone West passed Â
Westeros? I mean you’ve been fighting over the realms all these years. Turns out you could just go west and nobody would bother you. That would have been my escape route in season 4 or 5 if I was Tyrion when he had to be snuck out after killing his father. GO WEST THEY WILL NEVER LOOK FOR US THERE.
Just curious and I know this is a really open-ended question Â
the size of the army ridiculous, I thought the Dothraki were annihilated.
time travel everyone from all parts are there for a councel in a day.
other than that John belonged in the North, Sansa wanted winterfell to be on it's own and was granted, They sure can clean up a devastated city pretty quick
Westeros? I mean you’ve been fighting over the realms all these years. Turns out you could just go west and nobody would bother you. That would have been my escape route in season 4 or 5 if I was Tyrion when he had to be snuck out after killing his father. GO WEST THEY WILL NEVER LOOK FOR US THERE.
For the same reason why it took so long for Europeans to cross the Atlantic.
the size of the army ridiculous, I thought the Dothraki were annihilated.
time travel everyone from all parts are there for a councel in a day.
other than that John belonged in the North, Sansa wanted winterfell to be on it's own and was granted, They sure can clean up a devastated city pretty quick
You didn't pick up the fact that Tyrion was in the cell for weeks. Not only did they mention it, but his beard was much longer.
Again, I haven't read comments yet, but I am VERY pleased with the way that ended.
Agreed! Absolutely, it was tragic, painful, and epic. That whole Grapes of Wrath thing with Dani was absolutely gut-wrenching. The whole episode had a beauty to it.
RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
On the other hand, he immediately blows off his punishment and heads north with his injured pet and his best friend, doubtless to father lots of Quarter-dragonblooded children with hot redheads.
RE: RE: Anyone surprised they had never gone West passed Â
Westeros? I mean you’ve been fighting over the realms all these years. Turns out you could just go west and nobody would bother you. That would have been my escape route in season 4 or 5 if I was Tyrion when he had to be snuck out after killing his father. GO WEST THEY WILL NEVER LOOK FOR US THERE.
For the same reason why it took so long for Europeans to cross the Atlantic.
Eh, Targaryens could fly there on their dragons. And the iron island folks never thought about sailing there? I know it’s nitpicking but it was many head scratchers.
RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
one of the biggest story lines they were building toward was Jon Snow's true identity (plenty thought it was the biggest story). Did it even really end up impacting the story in any significant way? If he was only King in the North doesn't everything probably still play out the same?
punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
On the other hand, he immediately blows off his punishment and heads north with his injured pet and his best friend, doubtless to father lots of Quarter-dragonblooded children with hot redheads.
Fairly certain all the Nights Watch were dead. And what's there to watch, anyways?
I'm as critical as they come. My wife sometimes "lovingly" calls me "the bitcher."
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now. I'm not sure what some of you expected. This show was always going to have a bittersweet ending... it was just a matter of who lived and who died. Most of the characters were tragic in nature.
agree 10000000%
Most of the character arcs felt "right." It felt right for Jamie to die with Cersi. It felt right for Sansa to become queen (of the north). It felt right for Arya to go off on her own. Dany's end was predestined.
After a weak middle, I thought they ended strong. I now want to re-watch it all again to pick up the cues, which are there.
RE: Just curious and I know this is a really open-ended question Â
But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
Last week they played her up so much, even though she was just running around escaping death for no real reason. I thought that they were building her up and building up her presence in KL for a reason. Turned out the reason was t turn her into an extra this week so she could grab one more paycheck.
The Bran is king part makes no sense. Nobody but maybe three people on the dais knew his story and likely only those three people had ever heard of the term 3-eyed raven. These big medieval guys are just going to accept a cripple as king because a dwarf they all hated told a story? And, they’re going to put a northerner, who was always an arch enemy of the Iron Born and something completely foreign to the southerners on the throne? Unh-huh.
I do get why it couldn’t be Jon though. The way it played it, no way it could be him.
I, and probably every other person watching, knew that someone was getting knifed in the embrace (a very formulaic, clicheic action for tv, btw) it I was 50-50 on who it was going to be.
But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
So basically what this whole season was...
RE: RE: Just curious and I know this is a really open-ended question Â
But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
well, you *did* get bad acting and bad writing. So, it must be all or none for you. (I suspect you’re fibbing. You would have applauded a test pattern).
I guess Jon killing Dany is the third “holy shit” moment that GRRM told the show runners.
I think the 3rd oh shit moment last week. This week was highly predictable after the bells rung last week..
Overall this was good.. the problems over the past 2 season had to do with pacing.. and not showing the proper character development to get Dany from khaleesi to Mad Queen.. but outside of that the overall story and the show was really good.
one of the biggest story lines they were building toward was Jon Snow's true identity (plenty thought it was the biggest story). Did it even really end up impacting the story in any significant way? If he was only King in the North doesn't everything probably still play out the same?
Sure it did. It prevented a Jon-Dany union earlier, and directly led to her conclusion that she could only rule by fear. The word was already out on Jon. The tragedy of her character was that in many ways, she was right. It also became ironic that the woman who was born of royal blood in that land ultimately was perceived as an outsider at the head of a foreign invaders.
Dany was the epitome of the tragic figure. In some ways, a tragic heroine who outlived her usefulness as soon as the undead were destroyed. There are many parallels to this in Greek mythology, American Westerns, and hell even Dirty Harry.
There are people who try to act upon the world they have and people who just observe.
Many of the end crew had ambition in their arc. Many moved through the narrative by making choices and acting upon those choices. The books are about those who act
To me, Bran the Broken ( who makes no choices and is the very definition of an observers observer) is a way to appease all the fans who would have jumped out a tower window if their fave did not win.
This ending set up the maximum number of sequels and had the maximum number of characters live.
Im glad some degree of merit within an oligarchy replaces inheritance in the mad world but other than that, notice the ending served to start spinoffs?
Thankfully, that pirate cartoon character wont be in one of them
Epic episode. Dany's death scene had a beautiful and painful Â
But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
well, you *did* get bad acting and bad writing. So, it must be all or none for you. (I suspect you’re fibbing. You would have applauded a test pattern).
they absolutely butt fumbled the finish of this story. The speed which with they moved through the final plot points was ridiculous and as a result any foreshadowing had the subtly of a sledgehammer.
They were never going to go out guns blazing - that would just have us making comparisons to Episode 2 and Episode 5.
As they wrapped up the scene with the small council, and all the guys arguing with each other, I did kinda get a Seinfeld, "jail cell" vibe.
I'll bet you anything HBO does a feature where we get some continuation of the story, like they did for Deadwood. Hopefully not making us wait 15 years to see it.
Dany was basically Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Â
master of Whispers. That could have been a cooler alternative than her just going off to do whatever aimlessly.
Not the worst ending. Knew what was going to happen with Dany and it had to be Jon. A little disappointing it wasn’t him ruling he is the last Targaryen, would be a dissapointing way for his arc to go if that is how it is in the book.
Just feel that this show was at its peak when it actually ran a little slow. We had he beat writing and acting, best character developments, and it is what made this show what it was. The past 2 seasons where the pace picked up and the show got beyond the material of the books a lot suffered and it became obvious. Certainly wasn’t awful, he’ll I kept watching, but it’s more like their were 2 eras for this show after a certain point.
RE: As someone that has spent the last 25yrs in a steel foundry, Â
punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Not quite. Only the people who knew Jon cared for him being treated leniently. The rest of Westeros is still operating under the idea that killing a king/queen is bad no matter who it is. Yara was another person that spoke up about this - it wasn't just the unsullied.
master of Whispers. That could have been a cooler alternative than her just going off to do whatever aimlessly.
Not the worst ending. Knew what was going to happen with Dany and it had to be Jon. A little disappointing it wasn’t him ruling he is the last Targaryen, would be a dissapointing way for his arc to go if that is how it is in the book.
Just feel that this show was at its peak when it actually ran a little slow. We had he beat writing and acting, best character developments, and it is what made this show what it was. The past 2 seasons where the pace picked up and the show got beyond the material of the books a lot suffered and it became obvious. Certainly wasn’t awful, he’ll I kept watching, but it’s more like their were 2 eras for this show after a certain point.
Agreed about the eras. The Martin era and the Hollywood era.
'I like how all the lords of the other kingdoms unanimously agreed that a Stark should be king AND the North should be independent and also ruled by Starks, and never once argued in favor of their own interests. Stark supremacy and Northern-exclusive independence just made sense to everyone, I guess. '
'Dragons understand the concept of symbolism confirmed.'
'I legitimately can't believe how quickly they breezed over Daenerys's death, one of the most important characters in the entire series. The scene IMMEDIATELY following her being stabbed to death had an almost laughably relaxed tone, everyone just sitting around casually shooting the shit about who to pick to replace her. It was literally meant to be a comedy scene with like 3 or 4 jokes and almost zero mention of Daenerys. That is a comically jarring decision by the writers that completely decimated any emotional impact her death may have had. Was this written by a middle schooler?'
The show was exactly what it was. A series started by a creative novelist who hooked us all onto something fresh and lured in people who love books, and then had the baton passed to tv writers who focused on viewers and what’s worked in the past and gave us a medieval “Rich Man, Poor Man”.
The writers were in an unenviable position...
pleasing everyone.
Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
RE: Epic episode. Dany's death scene had a beautiful and painful Â
I think the hallmark of the entire show from beginning to end will be the characters and the interaction between the characters. For most of the series, the "plot" felt like more natural background to the interplay by the characters. Part of the problem for the last season was the pacing. That was my biggest criticism, followed by there were better ways to get from one point of the story to the other.
But the final season was always going to have the structural issue that THE PLOT was going to have to overtake the character interplay because they had to wrap this up. I think that's why it FELT different to so many. (And that indirectly affected the pacing).
What I will remember most about this series is how they made these fictional characters mean something to the viewer. It felt natural and real. Very few characters were pure good (Brienne) or evil (Ramseys, Joffre). Most were shades of gray. Many ended up being tragic figures. But that's kind of like how life really is.
RE: Dany was basically Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Â
Fine. I can dig that. And like I said, I liked how Cersei and Jaime died in each other's arms. It was a nice touch.
Jon's ending? Garbage.
Arya? Suiting, but boring.
Sansa? Predictable.
Tyrion? Boring.
And Bronn comes out of nowhere and is a good guy again. Cool.
What else could you really want for Sansa and Tyrion? Unless he's ruling over Casterly Rock, hand of the king is about the best Tyrion could do at this point. Like Bran said, he kind of deserves it. Can't be upset about him being in that spot. What would unpredictable be for him? Killed off? Then you'd really see people in an uproar and it would seem like they're only doing it for shock value, not for the story.
I saw lots of people saying they wanted Sansa on the iron throne. That was never going to happen but she ends up as Queen in the north. Which is where she belongs, really. What would be unpredictable for her aside from being queen of the seven kingdoms? Which was never going to happen unless you thought Bran would be king in the north. You could maybe swap them but that's about it.
'I like how all the lords of the other kingdoms unanimously agreed that a Stark should be king AND the North should be independent and also ruled by Starks, and never once argued in favor of their own interests. Stark supremacy and Northern-exclusive independence just made sense to everyone, I guess. '
'Dragons understand the concept of symbolism confirmed.'
'I legitimately can't believe how quickly they breezed over Daenerys's death, one of the most important characters in the entire series. The scene IMMEDIATELY following her being stabbed to death had an almost laughably relaxed tone, everyone just sitting around casually shooting the shit about who to pick to replace her. It was literally meant to be a comedy scene with like 3 or 4 jokes and almost zero mention of Daenerys. That is a comically jarring decision by the writers that completely decimated any emotional impact her death may have had. Was this written by a middle schooler?'
I feel you on this post. As for Winterfell being special, it just had to be that way. They never did want to bend the knee to anyone so they got what they always wanted. Like you said, the other thrones obviously don’t care like they do. Don’t ask me why not? I asked the same question to my wife and she didn’t have an answer either.
Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
I seem to recall a lot of people bitching about the final season of Breaking Bad too. And The Wire and The Sopranos. Maybe that's just something we do. Maybe the writing has no choice but to fall off after several seasons.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now
The same mob that absolutely adored this show for almost a decade? Why was their opinion valid in the beginning but isn't now?
The answer that appears to me is....Eric is calling those who don’t like some episodes that he likes .....the mob. I don’t think he would be calling us the mob if he disliked the writing as much as we have.
So apparently if you’re a deceitful backstabbing weasel, Â
That was the only thing about the episode that sort of pissed me off. Jon rides north with the Freefolk, right into the area where the first massacre took place in S1E1. The showrunners could easily have tossed us a bone with a visual reference to the spirals. Even if it was a Rosebud-style letdown, we would have gotten something.
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now
The same mob that absolutely adored this show for almost a decade? Why was their opinion valid in the beginning but isn't now?
The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
From beginning to end, Game of Thrones was a treat. And it's one of the very few series I have and will re-watch multiple times.
RE: RE: RE: Did I love it? No. Was it horrible? No. Â
Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
I seem to recall a lot of people bitching about the final season of Breaking Bad too. And The Wire and The Sopranos. Maybe that's just something we do. Maybe the writing has no choice but to fall off after several seasons.
Not the entire seasons. Hating an ending is a given for at least half an audience. Hating every aspect of a season is a whole other ball of wax. Sopranos final season was epic. The end wasn’t what everyone wanted. But that was only the last five seconds of the show. Not 6 episodes.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
at least his vote was credible: He goes along with whatever Yohn Royce does. “Um, yeah... King Bran? OK, whatever. Hey, can you get Cousin Sansa’s number for me?”
because her death was very anti climatic - and it seemed a little inconsistent that she was so trusting of him at that moment after feeling betrayed by him.
And Tyrion's speech was a little too "explainy" about why Bran should be King - that scene could have been done more smoothly. But overall I liked the rest of the episode.
Glad that they brought back some characters that we thought we wouldn't see again after episode 4, including Ghost. Tyrion hosting the counsil meeting with Davos, Bronn, Sam, Brienne was really entertaining.
Eric I don't really see how believe your contrarianism Â
is the enlightened position - this was abjectly terrible and sometimes the mob is correct. You are cartwheeling explanations in there about massive plot holes as if people already decided they were going to hate it and therefore don't see the 'brilliance' which set things up but the reality is the showrunners wanted to fuck off to Star Wars and put a perfunctory effort into ending what could've been the best show put to television.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think we're getting a feature in a few years. Drogon carrying Dany off was just weird. Maybe she comes back as the Ice Queen. That'd be bad ass.
I didn't recognize Robin Arryn without his mom's boob Â
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think they showed the pattern maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of the series. I never thought it was a big deal - just figured that it was some sort of trademark that they tend leave.
that GRRM had NO IDEA how this was going to end. He kept going off on tangents in the books, and I very much doubt that he'll ever finish the books. So the HBO writers did what HBO writers do, they cobbled together some BS ending that sort of, kind of, if you overlook a lot of things makes sense ending. Can't blame the series for ending up rather lame when GRRM has no vision on the ending.
RE: Eric I don't really see how believe your contrarianism Â
is the enlightened position - this was abjectly terrible and sometimes the mob is correct. You are cartwheeling explanations in there about massive plot holes as if people already decided they were going to hate it and therefore don't see the 'brilliance' which set things up but the reality is the showrunners wanted to fuck off to Star Wars and put a perfunctory effort into ending what could've been the best show put to television.
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I didn't hate it given what's led up to it, but it did kinda go downhill after Dany was killed. The only things I really hated were the choosing of the king and then the small council. They took something serious and made it a joke. Edmure Tully made a mistake in battle and now he's George Costanza. The only members of the small council that made sense was Davos and Sam. WTF qualifies Bronn for master of coin? What's the point of being the lord of the richest land (which earlier they say is somehow completely empty), if you are stuck in King's Landing. I know they wanted a farewell for the character, but that was an awful scene even if you ignore the logic issues.
that GRRM had NO IDEA how this was going to end. He kept going off on tangents in the books, and I very much doubt that he'll ever finish the books. So the HBO writers did what HBO writers do, they cobbled together some BS ending that sort of, kind of, if you overlook a lot of things makes sense ending. Can't blame the series for ending up rather lame when GRRM has no vision on the ending.
The author has been a consultant on the series. The foreshadowing of the end was there in the earlier seasons.
The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
1. I think the simpler explanation is that the show just declined substantially in quality. That same mob probably watched Breaking Bad. Where was the mass outcry when that ended? Some weren't completely satisfied, but the overall reviews for the final season and the series were outstanding. It was a well written show that didn't leave any loose ends, didn't build characters for years only to fumble for an ending. The reviews for GoT final two seasons, professionals and fans, are mixed at best. By the way, the mob includes the cast of the show.
2. While many are shocked and upset by Dany, I would argue more people are in the camp that the show generally just did a poor job bringing everything to the screen. There was a building criticism of the show from last season until before Dany turned. How do you explain that? That's not just emotional attachment to one character.
RE: RE: Eric I don't really see how believe your contrarianism Â
is the enlightened position - this was abjectly terrible and sometimes the mob is correct. You are cartwheeling explanations in there about massive plot holes as if people already decided they were going to hate it and therefore don't see the 'brilliance' which set things up but the reality is the showrunners wanted to fuck off to Star Wars and put a perfunctory effort into ending what could've been the best show put to television.
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I think the people who hated it for the sake of hating it are matched by those who liked it for the sake of liking it. I’m pretty agnostic but I do feel that to really come out of it liking it, you have to put aside any inquisitiveness whatsoever and just like it because they gave it to you.
RE: RE: Eric I don't really see how believe your contrarianism Â
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I mean by tonight there was only so much recovering from the irrevocable tailspin they had been diving in for half a 'season'. Again - it's not the conclusions they drew, for the most part they're all... fine. It's the unearned and rushed paths they used to get there.
The final three seasons suffered from a drop in writing but mostly suffered from awful pacing which directly contradicted the show's time rules and approach which preceded it. A season to get to King's Landing early on - now you can teleport as the plot demands.
I actually anticipate the opposite - what's going to happen is people who didn't watch will ask their friends who did if they should bother, and it's hard to recommend something which despite it's high points basically finished in such an anti-climatic blue balls. This is Lost 2.0, and what's the lasting legacy of that show?
RE: I would say that was the only scene that will stick out as memorable Â
The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
1. I think the simpler explanation is that the show just declined substantially in quality. That same mob probably watched Breaking Bad. Where was the mass outcry when that ended? Some weren't completely satisfied, but the overall reviews for the final season and the series were outstanding. It was a well written show that didn't leave any loose ends, didn't build characters for years only to fumble for an ending. The reviews for GoT final two seasons, professionals and fans, are mixed at best. By the way, the mob includes the cast of the show.
2. While many are shocked and upset by Dany, I would argue more people are in the camp that the show generally just did a poor job bringing everything to the screen. There was a building criticism of the show from last season until before Dany turned. How do you explain that? That's not just emotional attachment to one character.
it think it’s pretty much what I said earlier. They turned it over to tv people who turned it into a tv show
But at least they discarded the idea of Bran giving a king’s acceptance speech and thanking his second family, like Meera, Hodar, Howard, and Raj.
I liked it a lot. Jon's ending was weak but other than that I thought it was a really good ending.
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
I think GRRM checked out on GOT years ago. Even if he was "consulted", his just saying "yup, sounds good to me" is no writing. He set story lines in motion that he had no clue on the endings of, and accepted a Big Paycheck to nod and smile about the BS we saw tonight.
(1) Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones are completely different animals. Somehow, Game of Thrones has taken on a cultural importance with people losing their minds over the SJW interpretation of it alone. Christ, people have been naming their babies after Dany and other characters.
(2) When I came on BBI after episode #1 and #3 of this season and criticized it, people on this site jumped down my throat. Something really snapped around episode #4 and #5 for most people. The herd went in the opposite direction. What's funny is you have Star Wars YouTubers out there mocking the show, and yet they freely admit they don't even watch. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon now.
I stick with my original criticisms: episodes #1, #3, and #4 could have been done far better. But I really enjoyed #2, #5, and #6. The highlight was #5. I'll always remember that episode for it's sheer impact from start to finish with multiple characters (the scene where Jamie and Tyrion part is superb for example). My main criticism overall was the pacing. But the end made sense to me. Tragic sense. It wasn't a Hollywood finish. It was bittersweet.
RE: IMHO, the problem with the series always was Â
that GRRM had NO IDEA how this was going to end. He kept going off on tangents in the books, and I very much doubt that he'll ever finish the books. So the HBO writers did what HBO writers do, they cobbled together some BS ending that sort of, kind of, if you overlook a lot of things makes sense ending. Can't blame the series for ending up rather lame when GRRM has no vision on the ending.
Lol, I can just imagine GRRM reading the internet and saying "Note to self: the last two books should be very different from the show."
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
RE: RE: I would say that was the only scene that will stick out as memorable Â
saves Tyrion's life, then Tyrion is named hand of the king while Jon is sent back into exile as a tortured soul instead of taking his rightful place as king? I'm not one of the "mob" bitching about the show, but it was tough seeing that play out. And why the hell didn't Sam speak up on his behalf?
One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
(1) Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones are completely different animals. Somehow, Game of Thrones has taken on a cultural importance with people losing their minds over the SJW interpretation of it alone. Christ, people have been naming their babies after Dany and other characters.
(2) When I came on BBI after episode #1 and #3 of this season and criticized it, people on this site jumped down my throat. Something really snapped around episode #4 and #5 for most people. The herd went in the opposite direction. What's funny is you have Star Wars YouTubers out there mocking the show, and yet they freely admit they don't even watch. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon now.
I stick with my original criticisms: episodes #1, #3, and #4 could have been done far better. But I really enjoyed #2, #5, and #6. The highlight was #5. I'll always remember that episode for it's sheer impact from start to finish with multiple characters (the scene where Jamie and Tyrion part is superb for example). My main criticism overall was the pacing. But the end made sense to me. Tragic sense. It wasn't a Hollywood finish. It was bittersweet.
I have to admit I am taking great pleasure in all the people who named their daughters "Khaleesi."
I think the Star Wars link is that D&D are going to be the writer/directors of future Star Wars movies. I know some of my Star Wars buds are not happy at that prospect now.
Agree to disagree on the show, but I'm glad it was satisfying to someone.
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
I posted a warning. It’s inevitable that someone would post a spoiler, that’s just the nature of message boards.
RE: So Tyrion manipulates Jon into killing Dany, which conveniently Â
One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
I liked it a lot. Jon's ending was weak but other than that I thought it was a really good ending.
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
just like those that spoiled the Avengers Endgame ending. F U
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
Intentionally stayed off the internet today to avoid that, but really sad to hear someone did that on BBI, which is generally pretty good about such things. Fuck him for posting spoilers.
As for the ending, I’m fine with it. Predictable, sure. After Dany’s death, they really could have used another episode to play out the ending, but oh well.
High notes of the finale: Brienne finishing Jaime’s page, Sansa holding out for independence, and the final small council meeting was amusing.
Shows that get this big are almost impossible to write to a satisfying ending. I figured this thread would turn into a colossal bitch fest, which is of course every fan’s right. But I also agree a lot of folks (not just here) have gone way over the top with the obsessive criticism.
But whatever...it’s been fun discussing the show on here with y’all over the years.
I mean by tonight there was only so much recovering from the irrevocable tailspin they had been diving in for half a 'season'. Again - it's not the conclusions they drew, for the most part they're all... fine. It's the unearned and rushed paths they used to get there.
I think that's pretty spot on. If you had told me after season 5 that Dany would wind up turning mad, Jon's destiny was to stop her, Tyrion would become Hand of the King, and Bran would be the king, I would have been fine with it and thought it all plausible. I would have been most doubtful of Bran's ending, but they obviously were trying to build him up to be something important in books and show.
How they got there and the fact that D&D asked for the last two seasons to be shorter is a mystery to me.
The dragons are much smarter and perceptive than some posters realize and this was explained on the show (as someone above pointed out)
Overall I thought the ep itself was a little boring but I feel that way about most of the last eps in each season. The penultimate ep is always the best of each season and that was the case this season. I liked most of the character endings (Sansa, brienne, jon, sam, and Tyrion). Really glad Tyrion didn’t go out and got some redemption after bumbling around the last season or two
Agree on Brienne succeeding Jaime as Lord Commander and finishing his entry and Sansa remaining independent. But brutal backhand from Sansa to Bran before the, uh, election. Lol.
Oh and yeah, Joey's behavior was pathetic as usual Â
spoiling the show's finale is purely mean-spirited. Old idiot acts so tough here as if people don't have memories about him bleating about downturns in his personal life. We know who you really are, bro.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think they showed the pattern maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of the series. I never thought it was a big deal - just figured that it was some sort of trademark that they tend leave.
It was explained I believe by the writers that the circle pattern was the symbol of the children of the forest and basically the NK giving them the equivalent of the finger
that the killing of the Masters of Astapor (for example) was somehow a prescient warning for Dany deciding to kill innocent people in King's Landing in episode 72 of 73. If that was always her fate, then they needed to do a better job of showing that part of her character. Hell, why did she waste any time fighting the Night King when she could've dismissed Cersei and sat on the throne last season? It doesn't make much sense.
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
re: "Lol, I can just imagine GRRM reading the internet and saying Â
'Note to self: the last two books should be very different from the show.'" No, but I can see GRRM downing a 3rd Pina Colada on some Caribbean Island and saying "WTF do I care: Jon Snow is king, or not, the North is independent, or a vassal.... Never really got that far myself and, ya know, I got mine $$$ now so...whatever".
RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
That and also Dany’s speech saying that she gets to choose to rule the masses with mass murder. Writers made her into Stalin to justify the abrupt assasination.
RE: RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
My question is, where the hell was everyone going in that last shot? What's north of the wall?
After the battle of Winterfell, Tormund said he would take his people back North of the wall to wander. He also dropped the line to Jon that he has the “real” North in him.
I think what they were going for in the end was Jon was miserable after what he had to do (kill Dany), then by being sent back to Castle Black. But once he went North of the wall again with the free folk, he realized they were his actually people and he was going home.
The council laughed at Sam’s idea of the people choosing their ruler Â
One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
That and also Dany’s speech saying that she gets to choose to rule the masses with mass murder. Writers made her into Stalin to justify the abrupt assasination.
A true Stalin would never let herself be assassinated so easily. These types are paranoid of everyone. There's a reason for the purges and night of long knives type stuff. Dany wasn't really that way. Maybe in time she would have been but the writers didn't really show us that. The turn last week just didn't work for me and that made tonight's show inevitably a fail.
And hard to think which is lamer Bran as King or Tyrion getting to play king maker. Very unlike early Game of Thrones where power would have decided these things not speeches. The Unsullied and Dothraki seemingly had a lot of troops however implausible that seems after the Battle of Winterfell and they just abdicate it and say yeah okay, we'll leave and let this kid take over and let Tyrion who betrayed our beloved Queen and Jon who killed her off the hook? Didn't buy it.
They also left a pretty big plot hole with the remaining Dothraki Â
Their entire existence is based on raping and pillaging, but they agreed to follow Daenerys. Are we to assume after she gets murdered they’ll agree to live and serve peacefully under King Bran? More likely they’ll go back to Essos, but we’ll never know.
I should really stop pondering these things and live with the ending
- Tyrion’s line about ask me in ten years if killing Dany was right
- The banter, and seeming pointlessness of the high council discussion post Dany
- Jon feeling empty after the deed and after his hemorrhage of power
The season (and ending) was deeply unsatisfying, which is likely the point.
At the end of the day what the people want is a warm bed and freedom from war/death and Bran was the compromise candidate that everyone could tolerate.
Still think the whole night king thing was bungled and mostly seemed pointless
Night King was supposed to be an existential threat, Â
but was really pointless. Killing him didn't even create any goodwill among the parties involved. All the storyline did was get people Dany cared about killed after she went north as opposed to just getting rid of Cersei ASAP.
Sansa got to declare independence. Why couldn't Yara say, "Oh wait... that's an option? I want to be independent too!"
RE: I do agree with the why is there still a Nights Watch question Â
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
Yeah, that was handled terribly. Why didn't Sam speak up on Jon's behalf? Jon should've told Tyrion, Bran, Grey Worm and the rest to go home and get their shine boxes.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
Yeah, that was handled terribly. Why didn't Sam speak up on Jon's behalf? Jon should've told Tyrion, Bran, Grey Worm and the rest to go home and get their shine boxes.
Yea...someone could have at least mentioned the fact that Jon is actually Aegon Targaryen and has claim to the throne.
Not saying he had to be the King, but no one thought that was important??? The only reason it was written into the show was to drive a wedge between him and Dany?
A lot of $$ was spent on long (and great) battle scenes and special effects (Dragons & destruction) in the later seasons. This meant fewer episodes and less time for character and plot development. This is the result.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I'm with Eric on this. Liked this ending -- maybe because it went pretty much where I figured it was going to go. George R.R. Martin's answer to "Who should sit on the Iron Throne?" was always going to be "No one." I know some people look at this season as some kind of betrayal of him, but Martin told Benioff & Weiss the story. It's his ending, not theirs. And everything about this season has been totally George R.R. Martin, except maybe that they actually finished the thing.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
This episode was more of the same - people checked out after eps 3/4 Â
because poof - the white walker storyline was gone like that with minimal explanation. The "great war" was a great battle episode lacking context. I'm not quibbling over a minor issue with military tactics or how they killed the NK (who will probably only end up a TV show character) - I actually thought both were really well done - but the mile wide gaps in the overall story telling were too half baked to miss. Especially in these last 2 episodes. I guess when the Night King rose the dead most of those unsullied and Dothraki were allowed to remain alive.
There were things in this episode that were well done but by and large most of the narrative stopped making sense when they decided to try to capture a wight and I guess there just wasn't much they could do to "unfuck" everything. These last 2 seasons were a handful of good moments, extremely well done battle sequences, and writing stringing it all together that was so far beneath the 6 seasons that came prior it kind of amazes me that anyone is being critical of those disappointed. I don't care that they killed Dany. I don't care that they turned her into a heel. I'm disappointed that the past 2 seasons were sloppy, rushed, and extremely bizarre in their choices of what to do with characters. But hey, at least we got to see Edmure's elevator pitch to be king. That was definitely time well spent.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
If you read between the lines of interviews with D&D and GRRM, it's apparent that D&D changed things in the show whenever the audience was able to guess outcomes of major plot points. I think that explains why Arya was the surprise killer of the Night King and Jon's Targaryen lineage and magical resurrection had zero bearing on the plot. In the books, Jon and/or Bran are the likely heroes against the Others and the Azor Azhai prophecy probably means something.
Tyrion walking through the devastation went on a little too long. Discovering Jamie was pro forma heart tug
But the episode was good because the people who can act--Tyrion and Jon--were the focus.
Massie Williams was a cute kid but she is just awful as an adult trying to act. Sansa and Dany are OK in small doses.
But a lot of the minor players, most of whom can act, such as Ser Davos and Bronn and Samwell, were able to take take center stage at the end.
Also, Jon returning to the Night Watch was a twist that nobody saw coming.
But finally the show, as a viewer, was about the 8 years of life that you spent with family, friends and loved ones watching the show. It is bittersweet--like life itself--and I thought they did a good job capturing that with the three Starks all going to their own endings.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Agree to disagree, i guess. I don't need every supernatural element explained, and that wasnt what i was talking about.
To me the most important thing is humans act human - that is, we are driven by motivations logical or emotional. The vital part in writing people is that their actions are driven by something that feels real as an audience member.
I listened to the Breaking Bad insider podcast and know that as they broke the season (sketched episode plots) they ALWAYS started with: where are the characters emotionally, and what do they want? Even if you disagree or it’s illogical, they gave you reasons. WW had chances to stop the meth game, but he turned back into it for ego and because he liked being so good at it, it stopped being financial. Each decision was earned by the character development to that point.
This is where GoT broke down, either in motivation, giving the audience enough time to justify big emotional turns, or not having characters just tell or show why they do things. We have to assume everything.
Dany feels rejected by Jon, but he never explains why he can’t return her feelings - is it the aunt thing? That his family hates her? She turns away and says “It’s fear then...” wouldn’t Jon say “wait, Dany, I do love you but understand my perspective...”
Or when the bells ring, she grimaces and just burns KL down. How about a quick flashback to the beheading of her friend and her friend saying “dracarys!” Or have her say something that lets us to know what’s in her head at that critical moment. In the finale Jon never asks her the obvious - why? She says (unasked) she “had to” as Cerce saw her mercy as weakness....but, that explains why burn the whole red keep despite the human shields, not the entire city. That’s a major turn for a character that protects the innocent. Very little explanation that makes sense is given, a couple of nonsensical lines. I get that she was supposed to feel alone, betrayed, maybe paranoid. But was she crazy? angry and out for blood? Her explanation doesn’t fully mesh with either.
Sansa declares the North independent, the other lands weren’t like, “wait, us too then!” No explanation.
Grey Worm just accepts that Jon who KILLED his queen, liberator, and friend of years will be sent North and Tyrion who betrayed her is the hand? No explanation. So the unsullied are like, oh well...(shrug)
The outcomes were mostly ok, but how they got to them was terribly rushed. Very little dialogue. The finale at least had some, like Tyrion’s speech to Jon about how they let Dany’s power grow. So I like the finale ok. But even the killing of Dany felt rushed and she says...nothing as she dies. Not even: why or you betrayed me again or anything? And the dragon burning the throne? That is an anthropomorphism of the dragon that was not earned by any prior action (not killing Jon, ...ok he’s a Targ, I get that)
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
I totally disagree with Bran being beyond such matters and him being king is inconsistent to his character. He wasn't going to go back to meld with the tree and just observe the world dispassionately. There is no more NK. There is no real wall now. There is no more Children of the forest. As the last greenseer Bran was the only one that made any sense to rule.
was really terrible. I knew it wouldn’t be good, but in my opinion it was just completely awful. There was a lot of great stuff with the the show early on, but this season and especially the finale were brutal. I’m glad some people sound like they enjoyed it though. The ending to me turned it into a show I would never go back and rewatch.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Yes, that's the main reason why it was written. The most important element in how this story concludes is discovering how Dany responds when she is threatened by someone who is not clearly evil (like the slave masters).
The first act of the episode was almost entirely dedicated to exploring how flawed her mindset is, with the revelation of Jon being the true heir to the throne really being the initial trigger for all of her rage thereafter. Without that it may have been too late before everyone saw her true colors.
The second reason is that it allowed all of leaders of the great houses to more easily come to the consensus that Kings should no longer be given their title just because of their blood line. The choice became binary - either have some sort of "republic" where the King is chosen by the leaders, or go back to endless wars over who should be the King of the 7 kingdoms. The discovery of Jon's lineage and his reluctance to take the mantle is what ultimately got us to this point.
I have yet to read the books, bay I am aware of the Â
differences in the story between the series, and the books. I believe that if they followed the books closer, (assuming the books get finished) and included more detail, and paced the show as in the first 4 seasons, GOT could have ran for 15 seasons. We all know it was that good. It was so good it drew us into 2 shortened seasons over 3 years, of what many thought was subpar television.
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
RE: Oh and yeah, Joey's behavior was pathetic as usual Â
spoiling the show's finale is purely mean-spirited. Old idiot acts so tough here as if people don't have memories about him bleating about downturns in his personal life. We know who you really are, bro.
Fuck him.
You know nothing Jon Nitro
I'm glad it's over. If anything, for me, it was too long. I have to Â
say that the best line in this last episode was when Bran said, "Why do you think I came all this way?" But I do think that George R R Martin could have come up with a better name for the character that becomes the ruler at the end of this story than Bran.
that the killing of the Masters of Astapor (for example) was somehow a prescient warning for Dany deciding to kill innocent people in King's Landing in episode 72 of 73. If that was always her fate, then they needed to do a better job of showing that part of her character. Hell, why did she waste any time fighting the Night King when she could've dismissed Cersei and sat on the throne last season? It doesn't make much sense.
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
It doesn’t make sense to me either. In fact, even Tyrion stated to Jon the three things Dany did “and we rejoiced and followed her” for it. That event was one of the three.
People see what they want to see, so no big deal.
RE: RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
Lol, that was pretty funny. I think someone said it last night....the show attempted to be a comedy after Dany’s death. In my opinion, it succeeded at that much better than as a drama. There were some pretty funny scenes including Drogon burning the throne and caring Dany away.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The last two seasons sucked. To finish this story without the book material was way above the writer's pay grade. They were not up to the task and this combined with their expressed lack of enthusiasm and desire to finish the show quick doomed the ending.
For example, the most iconic character is Tyrion, and his whole character died once the book material was out. The great writing from the books which gave birth to the TV Tyrion ran out and his character finished on empty. Same with Varys and Littlefinger.
If you are into the books they will never be finished. Give up on it. Game of Thrones the novel was written I think, in 1996. 1996! Think of your life then and all that has transpired. That was a loooong time ago. Resign yourself to the fact that the absurdity that was this season was the only ending to this story you will ever get.
All the fantasy elements the show writers showed no interest in writing. They invented the Night King and did not even have a story for him. These guys hit entertainment lotto and adapted the book material excellently. As that material ran out, these guys mailed it in and and the combination of incompetence and indifference gave us seasons 7 and 8.
As a final note, the abandonment of Jon Snow as a real character and the joke that was his part in this final season is the biggest crime.
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Jon goes north of The Wall to become a lumberjack.
Lol Gary. My wife immediately said this after it ended. She said I didn’t think there could be an ending worse than Dexter until today. I wasn’t a fan of the Dexter ending either, but it didn’t bother me THAT much, just somewhat.
RE: RE: RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
They rushed the show and botched because of it. Moved through plot points too quickly. Dialogue became too simple and some of the acting was really bad. To me it seemed liked everyone on the show was ready for it to end. Liked Jon killing Dany. Didn't like how everyone just seemed completely ok with him being fucked? One quick little "sorry we tried" from the Stark gang? Sam didn't say a word to vouch for his best friend? The man who raised an army to defeat the dead? It epitomized how poor this season was.
Bran wants to rule now? The same character they made a point of showing us turn into a cold, silent all seeing man is now the leader of Westeros? The dude who repeatedly said "i'm not bran anymore" is king? You could talk me into many characters ending up on the throne but he doesn't make the list.
you knew this was the final season, you knew they decided to quicken the pacing, and would not go into the same level of development as the book material did or even prior seasons of the show post book material.
the one quibble I have other than the one I first mentioned is why would Dany feel like the Kings Landing townspeople have sworn allegiance to Cersei? I didn't read about one person in any book or see one person in any show act even benevolently toward Cersei besides Qyburn, The Mountain, and Jaime. everyone else hated her.
but it's a minor quibble, they needed some reason to show Dany as destructive, bent on "liberating" those who didn't need or want her liberating.
this ending was nothing like Dexter. I also read most of the Dexter books and the last few seasons of Dexter was like it was written by an intern.
in this show including me. People sat on the edge of their seats on Sunday nights. I accepted each episode for what it was, including last night's and so should everybody else.
For people to stomp their feet and want a "do over" is either very comical or very sad, and probably both.
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Yep I think 10 episodes in each of the last two seasons with similar endings would have alleviated many of the problems and complaints.
I'm guessing these are the endings that GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss five years ago. Bran as King is a dead give away. He's always been much better fleshed out in the books than in the show. Hell the show just got rid of him for an entire season and basically turned him into a meme the last two seasons. So it seems completely out of nowhere based on show plotting, but would make more sense in the books and is likely what George told them.
The whole dragon pit scene and ultimate resolution of King was clunky and a bit tough to understand. But the ending montage and opening leading to Dany's death salvaged the finale enough for me.
Still love this series, any issues from these last two seasons won't take away what the entire show meant to me.
What about when Bran was talking with his advisors Â
And they say, last they saw of Drogon was that he was heading west...Bran is like I will find him.
What does that mean? He has the ability to warg into the dragon? If that's the case, he couldn't have done that before Euron was taking pot shots with arrows?
I also hated the line, "you were where you were supposed to be." So the whole time, he saw into the future and knew he was going to be king.
I didn't mind the last episode, but just seemed odd to me.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
Seems stupid for that to be the only reason its mentioned.
Maybe the books will explain it better, but the show did a terrible job.
Ive been a fan of the story the entire way until the finale.
and maybe I missed it, but how did they know that Jon killed Dany? I mean the Drogon takes here away, there is blood on the floor, but did he just admit to killing her?
They fast forwarded a "few weeks" to the council in the dragon pit, but maybe I missed how they knew that Jon killed her?
It's a shame the decision was made to end it sooner than later Â
Season 7 could've been two seasons, only six episodes to finish the entire story could've been twelve episodes or more. Still enjoyed it as a whole but the last two seasons feel like a missed opportunity.
over the last two seasons for the worse. Once it got ahead of the books the quality of everything (writing, acting, production, direction) felt off to terrible at times.
I think the part with Bran was lame...the rest of it I could have lived with if it was executed properly, but I dont feel it was.
All the goodbyes were ridiculous and many were unnecessary. "Do you have your needle?" Give me a fucking break.
you dont end a series with a ton of spinoff capabilities Â
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
has mentioned a couple times that the showrunners and actors want to move onto other things. That's probably a big reason why the show was rushed. HBO likely wouldn't care about it going on longer. There's a lot of people with HBO only for GoT.
One thing that bugged me with their incessant call backs to earlier seasons the past 2 years is that with all the reminiscing none of the Starks bring up Ned or Cat. Their deaths have been a couple years past now, but you'd think that being together for the first time in years it'd come up.
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't understand the purpose of re-animating the Mountain. Â
All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
Sam’s character evolved tremendously throughout the show:
1. Very wise
2. Killed a Whitewalker
3. Fiercely loyal
4. Instrumental in getting dragonglass
5. Surrounds himself with good people
6. Extremely compassionate
I will stop there. Had they gone there (to Sam), I certainly would have changed my 3 of 10 to probably a 6 of 10 IMDB rating. Bran the Broken was pretty bad imo.
But it was obvious to me....the finale was mostly about the STARK family, so Sam loses out there.
RE: Would have been nice to see the scene after Jon kills Dany Â
I mean, she's not there. Did he confess to her murder? I guess he did because he's a fucking moron.
Hi guys. Guess what. Daenerys got on her dragon and flew away. Just flew away.
She didn't say when she's be back but she said I'm totally in charge while she's gone.
I wondered that as well. How did anyone know Jon drove a dagger into Daenerys?
Jon is an honest guy carrying a lot of guilt as it was.....he would not deceive anyone. Besides, What would the audience think of his character had he done that? It was never the writers intention to cast Jon in a negative light. He has always been a favorite with the people.....that really would have had people in an uproar had they made him change like that so suddenly. Dany was bad enough don’t you think?
RE: I have yet to read the books, bay I am aware of the Â
differences in the story between the series, and the books. I believe that if they followed the books closer, (assuming the books get finished) and included more detail, and paced the show as in the first 4 seasons, GOT could have ran for 15 seasons. We all know it was that good. It was so good it drew us into 2 shortened seasons over 3 years, of what many thought was subpar television.
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
That "Bran played the game better" sounds like the line from "War Games" where the only way to win is not to play at all. Which he truly did not.
Jon has Ned's honor. He likely confessed. Now how he did it without getting killed on the spot is a wonder. I assume he gathered some northmen before confessing. Greyworm has never shown to be a calm, calculating individual so it wouldn't believable to have Jon tell him he just made Dany more aerodynamic for Drogon
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
+ 1
RE: I don't understand the purpose of re-animating the Mountain. Â
All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
I think there were several purposes:
1. to introduce qyburn as the "mad scientist" doing shit that got him kicked out of the Citadel. And carrying this point past book material to the show if the first real introduction you had to Qbyurn was creating a rotating harpoon that could kill a dragon you might wonder who the F is this guy? IOW you might expect someone as resourceful as Qbyburn to come up with a plan to combat a dragon.
2. the Mountain provided to be a formidable and loyal body guard for Cersei
3. To keep The Hound's story and motivation alive. He lived for and was motivated by revenge vs his brother.
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
There's just logic problems all over the place. Almost everyone on the high council came from ingrained generational power. In fact, they reinforced that when they laughed at Sam's democracy suggestion. It's ludicrous to think that some or most of them did not have ruling ambitions of their own.
Unlike all the other lords, Bran had no standing. He had already rejected Winterfell. His "story" would sound ridiculous to nearly every other Lord. In fact, the 3-eyed raven part is grounded in religion; a religion that only the old time Northerners held to. All of the other Lords believed in the Seven. There was no reason on earth for them to agree to having Bran be king, even as a compromise candidate. In fact, as soon as Sansa took Winterfell out of the Westeros equation,Bran himself became a foreigner in Westeros. And we're talking about mainly Southerners here.
The logic of the Night's Watch continued existence has been discussed here, but there is another element that makes it illogical. That is, once Sansa made the North a different country, the Wall (and the people who guard it) are no longer part of Westeros. So, there was no legitimacy in the Westeros punishment from that perspective.
One nit, or question...what voting right did the Iron Islands have on the question of king? My recollection is that they were a conquered protectorate and not one of the 7 kingdoms. Theon was a hostage taken after an invasion (not rebellion) by the Iron Born.
Ultimately...the showrunners decided they needed to end the show and this is what we got. Dany going COMPLETELY bonkers sealed her fate by Jon which took him out of the running for the throne as well. Bran is such an undeserving character for the throne. He was nothing but a conduit to move the story forward with his access to backstory. I can't imagine why the Lords of the 6 kingdoms would submit to rule by Bran anyway especially after his sister would not (for good reasons)
And a rant....why were there any Dothraki alive after the Battle of Winterfell? Seems like an awful lot of Unsullied survived as well. And why did Grey Worm not lop off Jon's head after finding out he killed Dany? He certainly had no qualms about killing anyone else who opposed Dany.
If it was my show I have Dany kill Jon after finding out his claim to the throne. Setting up a struggle between Sansa/Arya and Dany. It would have been more interesting. I would also have dived a little deeper into the whole White Walker/Night King story line. For such an overriding threat they really did a horrible job with that whole part of the show.
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't think the story choices are what made me unhappy. It was the decision to ditch so much hard work with fantastic story telling that was formerly given to us. Building 7+ seasons of Winter to have that ending with the Night King and then to have Dany turn on a dime (this has been argued ad nauseam but I still think it was horribly done) to then wrap everything up like nothing really happened at all was beyond a let down.
I've got a group chat of 12 of us, all watch the show. No one liked it, and it consists of people who've defended it pretty hard over the years. Just felt like a giant waste of time in the end.
RE: RE: I don't understand the purpose of re-animating the Mountain. Â
All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
I think there were several purposes:
1. to introduce qyburn as the "mad scientist" doing shit that got him kicked out of the Citadel. And carrying this point past book material to the show if the first real introduction you had to Qbyurn was creating a rotating harpoon that could kill a dragon you might wonder who the F is this guy? IOW you might expect someone as resourceful as Qbyburn to come up with a plan to combat a dragon.
2. the Mountain provided to be a formidable and loyal body guard for Cersei
3. To keep The Hound's story and motivation alive. He lived for and was motivated by revenge vs his brother.
just a few off the top of my head.
1. Qyburn wasn't an important character. So putting resources into his story was a waste.
2. Cersei would have had a bodyguard had the Mountain stayed dead. It wasn't necessary to re-animate him for that simple purpose.
3. Why keep the Hound alive? What was left in his story?
I keep hearing that the poor showrunners were in an impossible situation because they had so much to resolve. The truth is, they should have been working on that the last two seasons by reducing the number of characters. The Mountain, Qyburn, and the Hound (as well as others) could have been gone and forgotten 10+ episodes ago. They didn't need to stick around until the very end.
even go to the wall with the Unsullied fully leaving the realm? Why did they let the Unsullied leave to go rampage somewhere else? How are there so many damn Dothraki, haha?
Jon had no interest in being King. He never wanted to rule anything much like Ned. Robert didn't want to be King either. Jon Arryn may have led the rebellion, but Robert was the one people rallied behind and Baratheon's have Targaryen blood so after the war it was kinda forced upon him for the sake of the realm.
Stannis probably would have been the best king, imo. I'm curious how his fate plays out in the books
after killing the Mad King. Why is it a problem for Jon?
Jaime killed the Mad King.
and it wasn't a problem for him either, though it should be noted Ned Stark wanted Jaime to take the black and be sent to the wall for being a king slayer, but Tywin refused to allow it and Robert, sided with his wife/father-in-law over his hand and pardoned Jaime.
maybe semi-ironic in what comes full circle. Jaime kills the king is pushed to go to the wall, but his family stands up for him, Jon kills the queen, and get sent to the wall.
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't think the story choices are what made me unhappy. It was the decision to ditch so much hard work with fantastic story telling that was formerly given to us. Building 7+ seasons of Winter to have that ending with the Night King and then to have Dany turn on a dime (this has been argued ad nauseam but I still think it was horribly done) to then wrap everything up like nothing really happened at all was beyond a let down.
I've got a group chat of 12 of us, all watch the show. No one liked it, and it consists of people who've defended it pretty hard over the years. Just felt like a giant waste of time in the end.
But don't you think that meticulous story building going by the wayside is an effect of just not giving themselves enough time to end it properly? Yeah even though it was foreshadowed, Dany did turn on a dime. Normally that would play out over a full season, but that wasn't possible. The Long Night had to last one episode because there was no time to let it go beyond one episode.
It's just tough to do this show in 6 episode seasons. It requires a lot of leaps and gaps in logic. I left last night's finale feeling pretty good about it all things considered. I've been a bit surprised the reaction has been so one-sided against it.
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
I didn't have a problem with Bran, just the transition from Dannys death to the crowning of Bran. The confrontation with grey Worm was building for episodes, and then nothing but a dirty look at the very end? No payoff - Jon should have killed him mano a mano.
As for Jon riding off into the sunset, great ending but he should have faked his death and fled North to avoid ruling, which he never wanted. North of the wall was the only place he could be free. Banishing him there as punishment for saving the world just to make Grey Worm happy was silly.
Very ho hum way to finish thngs off.
RE: I don't understand the purpose of re-animating the Mountain. Â
All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
It probably stemmed from the books. Qyburn is allowed to do all sorts of twisted experiments and decides to re-animate the mountain as Ser Robert Strong. While it appears he was gonna re-animate him anyway, his main purpose is to serve as Cersei's champion during the trial by combat. They dropped that in the show so they decided to use him for the improbable Clegane bowl
and I have basically read nothing of this thread or anywhere else as I wanted to have an opinion unvarnished by outside influences is that I don't understand how Bran from the North from the House of Stark gets to rule the Six Kingdoms he and his family just seceded from. That's like the North and South having a peace agreement to end the civil war where the South secedes but Jefferson Davis rules the North. It makes no logical sense to me, even if you think that he would be a wise king because of the information he has stored in his head and his ability to see the future. My minor problem was that everything happened too fast again. Tyrion just popping out of jail a few weeks later. How did they get assembled. What happened to Jon Snow? The unsullied just murdered soldiers who they thought were loyal to the Lannister's but they took Jon Snow to a cell and let him live? Seems odd and not very congruous in terms of plot planning.
that's been my beef for years. These shortened seasons are a joke. Its funny how this was Tyrion's best showing since season 6. They actually wrote him well for the first time in years. I don't think him walking through the city took too long either, if anything that's an example of what they needed to do this entire time. To those saying that "they needed to end it" I say, "bullshit, they just showed you why they shouldn't have taken short cuts."
This story was too intricate, too massive to devote such little time to in closing it out. I really just didn't enjoy the speedrun, i'm thoroughly unsatisfied with the ending.
Ohh Dany's dead? Ok cool, speed run to picking a new king and that's wrap! Awful.
Absolutely awful. I thought everything was executed atrociously. They could have had the same major plot points and succeeded if they didn't bungle the last season or two.
Bran has been entirely useless the entire show. Worse yet, didn't he cause the war with the White Walkers by being touched? There's been no evidence he's useful, wise, thoughtful.
and I have basically read nothing of this thread or anywhere else as I wanted to have an opinion unvarnished by outside influences is that I don't understand how Bran from the North from the House of Stark gets to rule the Six Kingdoms he and his family just seceded from. That's like the North and South having a peace agreement to end the civil war where the South secedes but Jefferson Davis rules the North. It makes no logical sense to me, even if you think that he would be a wise king because of the information he has stored in his head and his ability to see the future. My minor problem was that everything happened too fast again. Tyrion just popping out of jail a few weeks later. How did they get assembled. What happened to Jon Snow? The unsullied just murdered soldiers who they thought were loyal to the Lannister's but they took Jon Snow to a cell and let him live? Seems odd and not very congruous in terms of plot planning.
You hit on the major plot hole that trumps all the others IMO.
Upon finding out Jon killed Dany (however it was revealed), we're to believe the Unsullied and Dothraki agreed to chill out peacefully for a month or so until the lords of Westeros gathered to come up with a political solution to the power vacuum?
I thought Jon was going to hop on Drogon, which would somehow show Dany's armies that he was now the one to follow.
But that would have prevented the plot twist of Jon getting sent to the Night's Watch in the end - which was a reach too.
IMO a better result is Jon's ancestry is revealed, he claims power, secures peace, then abdicates the throne, allowing for Dany's oft-mentioned 'breaking the wheel'.
Then the lords of Westeros gather to decide how to elect a new ruler - no issue with choosing Bran at that point.
Then Jon could have traveled North of the wall by his own choice at the end, not bc he'd been banished there.
Really this season needed to be 9-10 episodes. Really hard to make all this work when it was so rushed.
The finale could have been 4 episodes itself...
1 Episode: Dany's death / Jon's surrender / Sansa arrives
2 Episode: Formation of the council / negotiations / Bran
3 Episode: Negotiations: dothraki/unsullied exits, snow plea
4 Episode: Kings council discussion, Sansa, Jon, Arya, Tarley, Bron in their new settings
The only concept that really bugged me was that there should have been a ceremonial pact obligating each of the houses to the king succession plans.
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
Agree with this post completely. Reducing the number of episodes was the start of their writing mistakes, and I think the second mistake was further complicating things for themselves by intermingling the 2 big events into 6 episodes. Hard to resolve 2 long running plotlines driven towards the biggest battles in show history within 3 episodes of each other (especially when they also occur on 2 sides of the continent).
Yes we knew these were abbreviated seasons going in - but we obviously didn't know exactly how they were planning to pace the story. It could have just been that there wasn't enough material for full seasons. Turns out there was probably a lot more to conclude than typical 10 episode seasons (at least in s8) and the rushed timeframe impacted the writing substantially.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
The start of S7 reset everything on the equivalent of a blank page and everything that played out from that point felt more to serve the purpose of ending the show as quickly as possible vs. establishing deeper motivations. Character decisions/endings felt more like justifications than natural conclusions. S7 baked in some plot events that were illogical (expedition North, Tyrion trusting Cersei) and then S8 leveraged those events as key story aspects for what came after.
I thought it was good. It got me emotional in several places. It mostly made sense.
Were seasons 7 and 8 the same quality as the previous seasons? No. Am I still happy I got to see them? F*** yes.
There are some very valid criticisms on here and some that miss the mark. For example, someone offered the last season of the Wire as an example of a good last season of television. That does not make sense to me.
This ending is GRRM's ending, more or less. If you don't like the pacing, writing, etc., that's on the showrunners. If you don't like the substance of the ending, take it up with George.
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
I just came to accept the show for what it was over the past two seasons. It was changed, but ultimately still entertaining to watch. An incredible spectacle, effects and direction we may never see on television ever again. Along with tremendous acting
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
I thought it was good. It got me emotional in several places. It mostly made sense.
Were seasons 7 and 8 the same quality as the previous seasons? No. Am I still happy I got to see them? F*** yes.
There are some very valid criticisms on here and some that miss the mark. For example, someone offered the last season of the Wire as an example of a good last season of television. That does not make sense to me.
This ending is GRRM's ending, more or less. If you don't like the pacing, writing, etc., that's on the showrunners. If you don't like the substance of the ending, take it up with George.
That's all fair and I agree, though I do think the last season of the wire was closer to the first 4 than this was. I also thought the Wire did a better job wrapping everything up in the finale montage as we saw how so many characters had come full circle and informed how they'd become what they were in S1 in the first place.
To your last point I agree that this is probably very close to GRRM's ending and a lot of it has parallels to the way LOTR ended, which he'd always alluded to admiring. The end points for many of the characters were ok, just unsatisfying in how they got there due to the rushed writing. We are left filling in the blanks ourselves to get to make sense of some of the bigger decisions they made (the past 3 episodes especially). Why did the NK care about Bran so much? Why didn't Dany fly straight to kill Cersei - who had literally lied/betrayed her more than any other character? Why did everyone just accept Bran as the new king and the North as its' own kingdom? Would Yara especially have done the same? And probably whoever that guy from Dorne was too.
I just came to accept the show for what it was over the past two seasons. It was changed, but ultimately still entertaining to watch. An incredible spectacle, effects and direction we may never see on television ever again. Along with tremendous acting
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
Agreed I'm in the same exact place. There were things I liked about this season and in particular I thought the 2 action episodes were as good or better than anything I've seen in a movie the last decade. The fact that the show runners took an extra year between s7 and s8, and explicitly chose to do less episodes is just salt in fresh wounds of seeing the rapid degradation of a story that many of us have followed for over a decade and also happens to be probably the last major network TV show.
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
I just came to accept the show for what it was over the past two seasons. It was changed, but ultimately still entertaining to watch. An incredible spectacle, effects and direction we may never see on television ever again. Along with tremendous acting
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
Agreed I'm in the same exact place. There were things I liked about this season and in particular I thought the 2 action episodes were as good or better than anything I've seen in a movie the last decade. The fact that the show runners took an extra year between s7 and s8, and explicitly chose to do less episodes is just salt in fresh wounds of seeing the rapid degradation of a story that many of us have followed for over a decade and also happens to be probably the last major network TV show.
It's very easy for me to say sitting on my couch, you watch these inside the episode features and the work, time, and dedication that has to go into producing these episodes is truly incredible. I can understand how maybe some fatigue would set in and they wanted to wrap it up. But it's always be tough for me to accept, and I'll wonder what could have been if they just committed to two more full seasons.
It's very easy for me to say sitting on my couch, you watch these inside the episode features and the work, time, and dedication that has to go into producing these episodes is truly incredible. I can understand how maybe some fatigue would set in and they wanted to wrap it up. But it's always be tough for me to accept, and I'll wonder what could have been if they just committed to two more full seasons.
Exactly. Especially since fans were pretty understanding with the extra time in between seasons and the complicated battles that took forever to shoot were done great. It was literally just extra writing/talking/character moments that probably could have even saved the exact same general plot. Though I do think they made some plot mistakes too that made their version of the story a more difficult sell than it needed to be. Reverse engineering doesn't always result in the exact result you're looking for.
RE: RE: All they really had to do IMO if they wanted to save Jon Â
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
yes, in the end he got what he wanted, but he seemed melancholy - at least having the decision made for him - or who knows how he really felt he always seemed melancholy. but by save him I meant from any "punishment" at all.
I was even happy with yesterday's episode until the moments following Dany's death. I thought the time jump from Drogon flying off with her to seeing Tyrion lying in his cell was really clumsy. I was left with what I thought were important questions:
- Why didn't Drogon kill Jon?
- Why didn't the Unsullied or Dothraki kill Jon?
- How did people even find out Dany was dead?
I suppose Jon gave himself up and told them what he did? And we're supposed to believe he wouldn't have been executed for that... That they would imprison him? I'm not someone that demands the story go a certain way, but this felt like massively important shit. I would rather have had those questions answered than to see the cheesy scenes that comprised the second half of the episode.
Their error, IMO, was the need to wrap up characters that didn't need wrapping up. The whole second half would have been better had it focused solely on Jon after he killed Dany.
This show went from being one of the best ever to ho-hum in just two short seasons. It was such a steady downhill trajectory that got worse with each and every episode
There's also the question of how people knew that Jon killed Â
Dany. Only Drogon was there and it's not like he can talk. Dany gets whisked away, never to be seen again.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
It's Jon, so he's both honorable enough and stupid enough to fess up.
Not sure how the Unsullied guarding the Queen, presumably right outside the throne room, wouldn't have come in to investigate while Drogon was destroying things...
If there's one thing we know about Jon, he's his "uncle's son" and he wouldn't lie about what happened. He definitely just fessed up. How he avoided being murdered on the spot by the armies is another story. Agree with Terps that the time jump after the murder leaves a lot of questions unanswered. I thought everything up to that point was pretty great. But again, time was of the essence.
Already is naive. Please post your social security number so I can buy some crap on the internet.
We were told the last book was done how many times? Guy has lied out of his ass for going on 20 years about time lines and stuff about not all this. The one thing I do believe is that he writes stuff and then rips it up and starts over.
I was never emotionally invested In The TV series as an avid book reader. They made more than enough dumb choices once the years but people loved the character so they go away w most. And as its men mentioned over an over it’s obvious once the road map
Of source material was gone it and to shit. Martin cant even
Finish the last book but he can guide them
When he Can’t guide himself.
You can’t please Everyone but only the desperate fans want to shine the turd this season was. And if they want to like it fine w me. I’m just waiting formMartin and Patrick Rothfuss to write a series together. That would be great. Four score and 7 years ago we wrote a book
For me, this was like Prince Seigfried having to kill Â
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is Sansa easily getting independence. They used to all be separate realms and they have all been ravaged yet only the north gets independence
and I thought they tied up everything as well as one could hope for given that it's a series finale of an epic with the scope of Game of Thrones. All of the characters' moves and maneuvers made sense to me. And the visuals were stunning.
I thought this "shot" (not a "shot," per se, since it's CGI) was one of the coolest visuals I've seen in any show, ever.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
On the Throne, Davos as his Hand.. Tyrion as master of coin.. Grey Worm dead.. Sansa ruling the North, Bran as master of whispers (he knows everything).
As for the Dragons, they are meant to be very intelligent. Not to mention magical creatures, him burning the throne was a little much IMO but I believe Drogon was intelligent enough to recognize what destroyed his brothers and mother. To be honest I was expecting Dany to be paranoid and order Drogon to kill Jon right in front of the throne (ala the mad king burning people in the throne rooml, Drogon refusing (due to him being of dragons blood) and flying away as Jon approaches her and slays her with Longclaw to the heart.
Whatever
RE: The dragon was smart. he knew what was going on Â
Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
RE: RE: The dragon was smart. he knew what was going on Â
Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I think the Bran scheming thing is 1 of the most interesting unexplored aspects of this resolution. It certainly gives potential justification for why the NK may have viewed him as a high value target (assuming he and Bran shared a similar ability to see into the future). Also gives a lot more incentive in terms of why Bran was so hush hush about anything that happened. His character really got back burner treatment since going back to WF and maybe on a rewatch there will be moments we glossed over that take on a greater importance, but I think it's likely they should have just given him more moments.
though I loved that we got 80 minute episodes which may not have been the case otherwise. D&D decided they wanted to wrap it up in 13 episodes over the last two seasons and decided to force that to make everything fit. 16-20 episodes would have been more enjoyable from a pacing perspective.
Part of the problem was that for as much as the criticism leveled at D&D, GRRM didn't make things easy, either. He had some final plots in mind, but he has no idea how to get from where he left off the books to his finale because he planted so many seeds and his garden keeps growing.
Generally, I think a lot of the criticism at the way the show came to an end has more to do with the near-impossible task of perfectly landing this plane. The scope of the Game of Thrones universe is unlike any TV show ever, save Lost perhaps; and Lost was another show that caught a lot of criticism for how it tried to wrap things up.
I do think the writing was better in earlier seasons, but I also enjoyed earlier seasons more because there were more plot lines and more possibilities. There were more factions, more scheming, and more possibilities for how the show could go because it was merely telling a story with no need to try and end it.
Once the show got into finale mode, they had to slowly funnel all of the plotlines into a singular ending. As that happens, character arcs end and the story focuses on fewer and fewer characters, and so there is less possibility for the fate of the show and I think that just naturally makes it less exciting.
It reminds me of the NCAA tournament. The first four days are always the best part (unless you have a team still alive) because there is so much chaos, so many more storylines, and so many more things to focus your attention on. It goes from 48 games in the first four days, to just 12 games in the four days a week later. And then down to 3 games the following week. Sure, the stakes are higher, but there is less stimulation.
For me, my three favorite characters were always Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys and I always cared about them more than the mains like Jon and Dany. I loved the scheming and I particularly loved when all three were in different places infecting three separate storyboards. But as the show started to wrap up, Littlefinger was killed, and Tyrion and Varys were both handcuffed a bit in that they attached to Dany's quest and had to stick with her logistically. In that regard, the latter part of the series was always going to be less appealing to me, plot-wise.
screen time. Every time he spoke I was increasing the volume to make sure I heard every word correctly.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Agreed - i think there's a long list of characters who this could be said of in this final season (and interactions among them). Tyrion + Bran, Davos, Jon, Varys, Sansa, Sam, off the top of my head. All of them got little bits and pieces but all of them got short shrift IMO.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
My takeaway from it was that Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven before him) were smarter or savvier than they let on. Perhaps a bit of a Verbal Kint / Keyser Soze situation. I'm not sure how much they knew, but I think Bran/3ER was participating in the game of thrones just like all the others. And they were making moves along the way. I'm looking forward to re-watching scenes with Bran and how he interacted with various characters over the last few seasons.
As for Sam, I don't think the suggestion of a democracy was meant to be a swipe at the current situation. I think it was meant to show that the realm was making incremental progress towards a better way of governance (no longer monarchy by birthright), but that they weren't anywhere near progressive enough to cede all of their power to just the will of the people. That would have been too radical.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
I had the same thought. Like GRRM may have told them Bran ended up on the throne, but the details were left to D&D. IF that's the case, I imagine GRRM goes into a lot more detail developing Bran's character along the way (assuming the books are ever written).
Quote:
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I thought that too, but that type of reaction (laughing at the suggestion) is likely what would've happened in the real world. Even after the US revolted against the King's tyranny, they put in place the electoral college...
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
or Tyrion-- they were humongous bargaining chips. The remaining Lannister soldiers were worthless. The remaining Lords didn't care about Lannister soldiers and they were nobodies.
Jon/Tyrion had relevance to the rest of Westeros, especially the remaining Starks.
With Dany dead, you had Grey Worm and a legion of rule-following Unsullied and remaining barbaric Dothraki in Kings Landing without a purpose. King's Landing meant nothing to the Dothraki so I could see them wanting to be in the plains roaming around on horseback or whatever it is they do.
But what are the Unsullied to do. It was almost as if Grey Worm needed direction-- or needed a challenge from the other Lords so that he had a position to take.
All Grey Worm knew of the world was following orders, killing people, and that he fell in love with Missandei of Narth wanted to go there after the war.
If he kills Jon/Tyrion, then what? Stay in destroyed Kings Landing? For what? Why would he want to rebuild a city? Fight the Northmen just to fight a war? For what?
Keeping Jon/Tyrion alive obviously serves as a plot convenience to bring everyone together and to keep Jon and Tyrion alive, but it also give Grey Worm his own purpose for what to do in the immediate aftermath of Dany's death.
of revealing Jon's lineage and then spreading it was to turn Dany.
I know some people need to go to a safe space to hear it, but Dany was probably in her heart well meaning, but in her head and blood she was ruthless and likely driven insane - mainly due to genetics because she born a child of incest.
People who doubt this should read the backstory about King Aerys and (and prior Targaryen rulers) and how great his rule started but how little things would set him off into silent rages of jealousy. Mostly narcissistic things that were similarly obvious with Daenerys.
Once she learned Jon had a better claim to the throne than she did and once she saw the love, warmth, embracing, deifying that he received in Westeros, it began eating away at her and she knew she would never be loved.
Now we know Bran knew the outcome this would lead to and when Jon says "tell them" to Sansa and Arya he didn't object. Bran used Jon. Maybe even Sam.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Agreed. And when Dany learned of Jon's lineage which made him the rightful heir to the throne, what did she do? Did she offer to step aside and throw her support to Jon since he was the rightful heir to the throne that belonged to her family? No, she begged him to lie and to keep it a secret because it could get in the way of her taking the throne-- a throne that she has no rightful claim to.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
That's not the same thing. It wasn't absurd for the dragons to remain docile when they didn't sense a threat from Tyrion. It was definitely a tense, suspenseful scene, because they certainly could have incinerated him. But the fact that they didn't does not mean that they were engaging in symbolic reasoning. Otherwise, we could say the same thing about wild animals in our own world who choose not to attack in given situations.
But to look at an iron chair and conclude, "That's a symbol of the reckless ambition that truly killed my mother!" and then incinerate the symbol is a ridiculous thing to have a dragon in this story's universe do.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
Excellent points.
Cersei's actions in Winds of Winter are analogous to Dany's in The Bells, albeit on a smaller level. However, like you said, there were seasons of buildup to these actions on Cersei's part that made them neither a surprise nor out of character. Despite the writers' and some viewers' efforts to align Dany's actions in The Bells with things like the burning of Astapor's masters or the Tarlys, these things aren't in the same ballpark or even the same damn sport. There was no buildup to Dany's actions. That's just bad writing. While Dany was a multi-faceted character capable of good and bad deeds, she wasn't a murderer of innocent women and children. Don't have a character be something for 71 episodes, then something else for eps 72 and 73.
worst ending to any show ever. I mean it is ridiculously bad if you ask me. Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell can now be King... It is why he went all the way down there... Can that be anymore more stupid?
How do they even know Jon killed Dany? Why show that scene that isn't something the people would like to see! They cut away from so many moments to leave you wanting to know like when Bran told Sansa and Arya about Jon. So what he admitted it to Greyworm and Greyworm was like ok let me lock you up after I am just killing people in the street I am not going to try and kill you.
Power hungry Sansa and the north won't even bow down to the a Stark king? Really everyone is cool with that? Sure fine the North won't want a Stark king of course not they want a Stark Queen instead. I mean come on that is stupid. I could see that if they made like Gendry King, but they put a northmen on throne.
Jon went from the most important part of the whole start of Fire and Ice to basically a nothing the whole show in the end. He didn't do much in the battle, let Greyworm just kill those men who gave up, and killed Dany and then went and sat down in a jail cell before being banished north. This is so dumb. They just ruined characters in this show as soon as they passed the source materials. Think about it Dany turns into Mad Queen and brutal while not listening to anyone, Jon is useless and banished away, Bran who barely even talks for how many seasons is not the 3ER and King, Tyrion they turned into the stupidest man alive getting out smarted and fulled by everyone, Arya becomes a faceless men to take out the Freys, I mean I could go on and on with this crap.
Ruined the whole show and if this is how the books are I won't even read them if they ever come out. Actually if I am GRRM I am happy that HBO blew the ending so bad because he books would have to be 10 times better.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
The only prediction I got right was houses, lineages, claims to the thrones, etc wouldn't matter much in the end. Didn't know how it would go down but it looked obvious that squabbling over who's got the most Targaryen or Baratheon, or whoevers blood would be relatively pointless.
I believe the overwhelming consensus is that there was way too much ground to cover in a very short period of time.
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
Imagine if Twitter existed and had hundreds of millions of users when Mash, or The Sopranos, or any other major show was wrapping up and commenting in real time for every episode.
Also, those shows had much smaller universes to deal with and are really bout a main character or small group of characters in a localized setting.
Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
Agreed - this and the poorly written Dany turn are my 2 core plot complaints this final season.
Also re: your last post about the poor Dany turn, I thought this episode made it seem even sillier since they seemed to write her to be completely delusional about what happened/what she did. After last week those defending it as within her character had a variety of reasons for doing so - "she's always been ruthless", "she was jealous of jon", "she went mad", and it clearly seems like they predominantly went through door #3. But they wrote her so heavy handed mad this past episode thinking that those in KL were intentionally allied with Cersei. Literally the episode prior to the battle of KL they had conversations about how Cersei was doing that intentionally at the expense of her people and a couple episodes she's completely delusional believing that the people of KL chose Cersei.
So I guess we don't find out what Bran was warging into Â
at the Battle for Winterfell and basically Theon died for nothing.
He warged into the ravens. As soon as he warged, it cut to the ravens flying north to The Night King. He was getting TNK's attention (since he is marked) to draw him to the weirwood such that Arya could kill him.
RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
RE: RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
Why did the Night King expose himself to personally go after Bran?
Agreed. And when Dany learned of Jon's lineage which made him the rightful heir to the throne, what did she do? Did she offer to step aside and throw her support to Jon since he was the rightful heir to the throne that belonged to her family? No, she begged him to lie and to keep it a secret because it could get in the way of her taking the throne-- a throne that she has no rightful claim to.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
It might just be a book thing but it is probably a movie thing too. But Dany's core is not just power acquisition although that's how i manifested. At her core was the legitimacy question. The Barathions and Starks stole her birthright. She was the *legitimate* ruler and the Robert was a usurper. In fact, she was perfectly okay (initially) that Viserys was the real entitled ruler. So much so that she grudgingly married Khal Drogo. Yes, she became more and more obsessed with acquisition but it was always to make it back to KL to assume what was rightfully hers. That's what has always made my uncomfortable with her reaction to Jon. Her intrinsic value system *should* have made her step aside because the very same issue which caused her to become who she was, was trumped by Jon's birthright.
RE: RE: RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
Why did the Night King expose himself to personally go after Bran?
Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
Agreed. And when Dany learned of Jon's lineage which made him the rightful heir to the throne, what did she do? Did she offer to step aside and throw her support to Jon since he was the rightful heir to the throne that belonged to her family? No, she begged him to lie and to keep it a secret because it could get in the way of her taking the throne-- a throne that she has no rightful claim to.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
It might just be a book thing but it is probably a movie thing too. But Dany's core is not just power acquisition although that's how i manifested. At her core was the legitimacy question. The Barathions and Starks stole her birthright. She was the *legitimate* ruler and the Robert was a usurper. In fact, she was perfectly okay (initially) that Viserys was the real entitled ruler. So much so that she grudgingly married Khal Drogo. Yes, she became more and more obsessed with acquisition but it was always to make it back to KL to assume what was rightfully hers. That's what has always made my uncomfortable with her reaction to Jon. Her intrinsic value system *should* have made her step aside because the very same issue which caused her to become who she was, was trumped by Jon's birthright.
I think she was becoming more and more radicalized by her own message; the obsession and the quest itself kept building and building, and as she did things like walk through the fire and turn stones into dragon eggs, she was not just going to be Queen because of birthright, but because of destiny. The birthright legitimized and validated her question. And so when Jon's truth was revealed, I think her belief in her destiny was the winning emotion.
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
I think the argument (which isn't remotely supported by the show, IMO) is that Bran's ultimate goal the entire time was to be King and that the entire time he's been taking steps to position himself for that role. His seeming lack of desire to be Lord of Winterfell made it more likely that everyone else would support his "nomination" as King.
RE: RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
If it's a superhero movie, then it's like Avengers: Endgame being the first movie instead of the finale. The "existential threat" lasted one battle. Afterwards, major parts of the superheros were then felled by Euron Greyjoy. Does that mean he was bigger than an existential threat?
Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
I never said he lied about not wanting to be Lord of Winterfell. Plus, being King and being Lord of Winterfell are two completely different outcomes.
For a bit now, there is a thought on Bran that he was full of knowledge of all history with some understanding of being a seer and that he remained passive in several instances so as to not affect how other people acted so as to not mess up their timeline and change what would otherwise happen.
What the finale may suggest is that it may not have been Bran being in a dispassionate existence which would ultimately lead to an outcome where he ended up the King. Instead, it's also possible that perhaps Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven) may have overtly acted in furtherance of ending up with him on the iron throne. That it was all part of a much larger, and longer end game.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Didn't need to be mentioned because it was no longer germane. The whole course of the show from the 1st Episode illustrated just how destructive the "Game" was and why it need a push toward a different system.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
RE: RE: RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
If it's a superhero movie, then it's like Avengers: Endgame being the first movie instead of the finale. The "existential threat" lasted one battle. Afterwards, major parts of the superheros were then felled by Euron Greyjoy. Does that mean he was bigger than an existential threat?
Thethreat of The Night King and the White Walkers have existed since the first scene of the entire series. It's not as if there haven't been dramatic interactions with TNK and white walkers all through the series.
Ending the series with the battle against the dead would have been terrible because the show wasn't ultimately about that. It was always about the problems of man and the competing factions within them as they all destroyed each other vying for power. The Night King was an existential threat in the sense that it was the most dangerous possible threat and something that was a threat to all of man and yet, despite that, some factions were so consumed with power that they ignored the threat and decided not to face it.
The ones that did face it were able to destroy it (due to a superheroic effort) and when you save the world, the world keeps spinning and so there is an aftermath.
but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
couldn't have transitioned out of their showrunning roles if they were so fatigued by the saga and/or distracted by their Star Wars commitment.
It's not unprecedented for a showrunner (even a co-creator) to leave a series before it ends. One of the most prominent examples, of course, is Larry David leaving Seinfeld. But there have been others.
If it meant resolving the series properly, they should have done it, even if it delayed production. The fans waited almost two years for the final six episodes anyway.
but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
Can't give him credit, he didn't say Sansa was going to be the Queen of the North.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
Can't give him credit, he didn't say Sansa was going to be the Queen of the North.
I think we know that was always a given. He also didn’t say Dany would be offed because everyone knew that was a given too. No, Joey gave us all the non-givens, that required one of profound intellect with great analytical abilities.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Didn't need to be mentioned because it was no longer germane. The whole course of the show from the 1st Episode illustrated just how destructive the "Game" was and why it need a push toward a different system.
But that's from a viewer's perspective. The people actually *in* the story don't realize any of that. They've got millennia that says, no matter if it's bloody, this is the way to go. Their actions act with enlightenment for which there is no real foundation.
I don't think it had anything to do with fatigue. A good article I posted earlier in the thread basically described the shortcomings of the last 2 seasons as a result of the underlying writing style. GRRM basically used a sociological style that allowed him to build up the characters and allow viewers/readers to understand their actions, particularly when they are conflicted. For example, through the early parts of the show Cersei is evil, but you feel like she's doing everything she does to protect her children and their power (even blowing up the sept is in this vein). Or as Dany lovers have pointed out, all of her "evil" actions were in support of the downtrodden and against "evil".
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
I don't think it had anything to do with fatigue. A good article I posted earlier in the thread basically described the shortcomings of the last 2 seasons as a result of the underlying writing style. GRRM basically used a sociological style that allowed him to build up the characters and allow viewers/readers to understand their actions, particularly when they are conflicted. For example, through the early parts of the show Cersei is evil, but you feel like she's doing everything she does to protect her children and their power (even blowing up the sept is in this vein). Or as Dany lovers have pointed out, all of her "evil" actions were in support of the downtrodden and against "evil".
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
The article explains it far better than I could. Link - ( New Window )
It was a good article. I still prefer my own variant which is that they went from a writer of books (with the object being creative and making novel (NPI) art) to writers of tv (with the object of making fans/viewers feel a certain way and using time-tested tropes).
but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
It was a good article. I still prefer my own variant which is that they went from a writer of books (with the object being creative and making novel (NPI) art) to writers of tv (with the object of making fans/viewers feel a certain way and using time-tested tropes).
That's essentially what they're saying, though I'd go as far as to say even among book writers, GRRM's ability to "transform" characters from good to evil or to make you feel sympathy for evil characters (e.g. Cersei's walk of shame) is exceptional. Lots of books are a lot more black and white than ASOIAF.
I don't think it had anything to do with fatigue. A good article I posted earlier in the thread basically described the shortcomings of the last 2 seasons as a result of the underlying writing style. GRRM basically used a sociological style that allowed him to build up the characters and allow viewers/readers to understand their actions, particularly when they are conflicted. For example, through the early parts of the show Cersei is evil, but you feel like she's doing everything she does to protect her children and their power (even blowing up the sept is in this vein). Or as Dany lovers have pointed out, all of her "evil" actions were in support of the downtrodden and against "evil".
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
The article explains it far better than I could. Link - ( New Window )
Thank you for posting that - I think there's a lot of truth in it. I immediately thought of the wire having been a similarly sociologically driven story and how they changed a huge chunk of the main cast every season but the story stuck together vs. just turning the show into cops vs. bad guys.
that Wired covers here is that the show switched writing styles from that of pantsters into plotters.
Here are a couple choice paragraphs of the interesting read
Quote:
The problem is that the writing has changed, and it's changed in a way that breaks important rules the show had previously set for itself. I think I know why.
It all comes down to how stories are crafted, and for that, we need to start with two different types of writers: plotters and pantsers. Plotters create a detailed outline before they commit a word to the page. Pantsers prefer to discover the story as they write it—flying by the seat of their pants, so to speak. Both approaches have their advantages. Since plotters know the story in advance, it's easier to create tight narratives with satisfying conclusions. But that amount of predestination can sometimes make characters feel like cogs in service of the story. Pantsers have an easier time writing characters that live and breathe. They generate the plot by dropping a person with desires and needs into a dramatic situation and documenting the results. But with the characters in charge, pantsers risk a meandering or poorly paced structure, and they can struggle to tie everything together.
Quote:
George R.R. Martin describes this distinction in terms of architects and gardeners. He's firmly among the latter. He plants character seeds and carefully guides their growth, and when the show was directly adapting his A Song of Ice and Fire series, the approach paid off. It's why every emotional beat and fair-in-hindsight surprise landed with such devastating weight: The terrible things that happened to these characters happened because of earlier choices they'd made. Those ever-blooming stories were a boon to the showrunners, who had their pick, but they're also the reason the narrative momentum of the books slowed over time.
After the first major plot arc resolved in the third book, A Storm of Swords (seasons 3 and 4), Martin planned to skip the story ahead five years. But he couldn't make the gap in action feel true to the characters or the world, so he eventually decided to write his way through those five years instead. Knowing the bridging material wasn't ever going to be as gripping as the central conflicts, he compensated by planting more seeds in more corners of his already complex world. And once he had them, he couldn't prune them back without their resolutions feeling abrupt or forced. Worse, some of his idle characters were taking the opportunity to grow in the wrong directions, pulling away from the ending he had in mind for them. Soon, the garden was overgrown, the projected length of the series kept expanding, and the books stopped coming.
For the next couple seasons, showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss tried to take over management of Martin's sprawling garden, simplifying and combining character arcs with mixed results. Then, with the start of season 7, they shifted their focus from telling the unfolding story of an entire world to concluding a particular tale set within it. They gave themselves a fixed endpoint—13 episodes to the finale, and no more.
In so doing, the showrunners moved as far to one end of the plotter/pantser continuum as Martin is to the other. They weren't trying to resolve every character arc or pay off every last bit of world-building. They knew the destination Martin had in mind, they understood the dots they had to connect to get there, and they wanted to maximize fan entertainment along the way. Then, presumably, they asked themselves questions. What big set pieces did they want to deliver? What surprises could rival the greatest twists of the show? Which of the remaining conflicts would yield the best drama, and which onscreen pairings would bring the most emotion? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to finally see before it was all over? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list. And once they had that list, they needed to maneuver the characters into place.
Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
That's only "clear" because they never revealed anything about Bran's character/motivation. Maybe one of the spinoffs will (somehow)?
As for Drogon, I'd guess Bran's concerned because if someone managed to control Drogon, it would make them extremely powerful. But that's just a guess since we know nothing about Bran...
but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
I'm actually unsure of how to answer this because the writers have done such a horrifyingly bad job of developing Bran's character. It's actually worse to me now that we know he ends up as King.
But are we supposed to believe that Bran knew that Dany would murder a million people but it was part of his scheme to become King?
Idk, I'm finding it hard to put into words, but overall I'm just so confused as to how all the Bran pieces led here. It makes no sense to me.
My buddy brought this up and it makes sense. He thinks that The Lord of Light/Three Eyed Raven are connected somehow and that ill be the link in the books that the show did not have. Who knows.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: thanks for the clarification Â
Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
That's only "clear" because they never revealed anything about Bran's character/motivation. Maybe one of the spinoffs will (somehow)?
As for Drogon, I'd guess Bran's concerned because if someone managed to control Drogon, it would make them extremely powerful. But that's just a guess since we know nothing about Bran...
Drogon is the most powerful creature in the realm who just showed the physical ability to level an entire fleet and destroy all of Kings Landing with ease.
I think it would make sense that going forward, Kings Landing / the Realm would want to keep tabs on it.
Also, Bran forcing Tyrion to fix everything he broke and rebuild the city has a nice "Bran the Rebuilder" ring to it.
We're spednign so much time on Bran's "planning" Â
seemingly because we are caught up on his foresight. But in the show I don't recall them spending all that much time on his foresight abilities. Mostly he's looking backwards. Even the NK in the weirwood was more a plot based on what Bran felt the NK would be motivated to do, rather than his divination of what he would do.
I'm actually unsure of how to answer this because the writers have done such a horrifyingly bad job of developing Bran's character. It's actually worse to me now that we know he ends up as King.
But are we supposed to believe that Bran knew that Dany would murder a million people but it was part of his scheme to become King?
Idk, I'm finding it hard to put into words, but overall I'm just so confused as to how all the Bran pieces led here. It makes no sense to me.
My buddy brought this up and it makes sense. He thinks that The Lord of Light/Three Eyed Raven are connected somehow and that ill be the link in the books that the show did not have. Who knows.
In the writers' defense, GRRM doesn't seem to know how to land this plane or connect the dots, either. I mean, it's a 7 book series and books 1-5 were published in 1996, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2011.
I only read the first book, but who knows what GRRM told D&D about Bran.
battle with the NK Bran and Tyrion had a sit down, just the 2 of them. Last night made me think that Bran laid out the entire scenario to Tyrion. This may have been the reason Tyrion's plans suddenly started to back fire. Was it deliberate to get this ending? Tyrion sold out Varys who was campaigning to have Jon become king. Tyrion basically convinced Jon to kill Dany. It was Tyrion who recommended Bran to the council to be king. Also knowing the outcome it would make sense Bran would not accept ruling the north since he knew he would be king.
that timeline doesn't mean too much. He had a ton of material to start, which is why the first 3 came out in quick succession. The first break was between 3-4 and then again between 4-5. But they started talking about the TV project back in 2006 so who knows how much that threw off everything. And once the show became a hit, the focus was gone (and I can't blame him either, its a cash cow, he's travelling, he's likely exhausted, and he's not a young man anymore).
Had there been no show i'm guessing the books would have been done by now.
The production team learned a lot from their mistakes. Â
he basically wrote the first 3 books at the same time and it was basically the publishing schedule (and probably some final editting) that had them released 2 years apart.
Likely of combination of factors contributing to the delays in the final 2 books, the biggest being (IMO) trying to satisfactorily wind down all of the threads he's developed in the first 5 books. Keep in mind their are even more threads in the books then the show (e.g. Lady Stoneheart, the other Targaryen, (unbutchered) Dorne, more in-depth Greyjoy storyline, etc).
1. For those bitching about Bran saying he could never be lord or anything and then taking the throne. He knew the entire time how it would play out when he was north of the wall with Meera after escaping the army of the dead. In his visions they show the Sept blowing up and Dany flying over King's Landing on Drogon. He turned down Winterfell because he knew how the events would play out.
2. Tyrion being hand is extremely fitting. He was always great at it and cares about the people rather than just power. He definitely made mistakes the last two seasons, but clearly emotion played a role in that because he was dealing with his family. The scene where he finds Jamie and Cersei dead was one of the best scenes in the episode.
3. Having Jon be sent to the wall was the only way to avoid another war. Clearly they never intended on him actually serving in the Watch, if there even is one at this point. He gets to live out his days north of the wall where he was happiest in his life with Igritte.
Was it perfect? Of course not. It is basically impossible to end of a show of this magnitude and popularity with everyone being pleased. They definitely should have done two 10 episode seasons for 7 and 8 rather than just the 13, and even though it was bittersweet, I was generally satisfied with the conclusion.
RE: The production team learned a lot from their mistakes. Â
1. For those bitching about Bran saying he could never be lord or anything and then taking the throne. He knew the entire time how it would play out when he was north of the wall with Meera after escaping the army of the dead. In his visions they show the Sept blowing up and Dany flying over King's Landing on Drogon. He turned down Winterfell because he knew how the events would play out.
2. Tyrion being hand is extremely fitting. He was always great at it and cares about the people rather than just power. He definitely made mistakes the last two seasons, but clearly emotion played a role in that because he was dealing with his family. The scene where he finds Jamie and Cersei dead was one of the best scenes in the episode.
3. Having Jon be sent to the wall was the only way to avoid another war. Clearly they never intended on him actually serving in the Watch, if there even is one at this point. He gets to live out his days north of the wall where he was happiest in his life with Igritte.
Was it perfect? Of course not. It is basically impossible to end of a show of this magnitude and popularity with everyone being pleased. They definitely should have done two 10 episode seasons for 7 and 8 rather than just the 13, and even though it was bittersweet, I was generally satisfied with the conclusion.
Other than being rushed I enjoyed the season much easier than bitching about something I can’t change anyways but I would of preferred an ending that bran shows he has the makings to be the evil mastermind especially after the why do you think i came this far comment. It was there but they went with the birth of democracy ending which makes sense in the future evolution of society.
Also peter Dinklage was awesome as usual I do hope he gets another Emmy
is that if the showrunners knew Bran was going to be the ultimate Slay Kang, they should have spent more time with him. There was an entire season in which he didn't show up! (To be fair, I'm not 100% positive they knew by that time, but if they did, they could have given him a few stray scenes here or there. Or maybe showed his descent from person to Three-Eyed Raven!)
is that if the showrunners knew Bran was going to be the ultimate Slay Kang, they should have spent more time with him. There was an entire season in which he didn't show up! (To be fair, I'm not 100% positive they knew by that time, but if they did, they could have given him a few stray scenes here or there. Or maybe showed his descent from person to Three-Eyed Raven!)
I believe martin said he told them the major points about the ending about 6 years ago. What that entails besides Dany burns KL and Jon kills her is anyone's guess.
a lot of places to develop things more. And if we can agree on that much, then it's pretty public why that was the case.
I guess it's not uncommon in history to have showrunners/creators get sick of their projects midstream (Sorkin West Wing, Milch, etc) - just sucks for all involved I suppose.
Quote:
More recently, HBO offered the showrunners more money and time to at least add more episodes to the final season, after eight seasons, the last two being shortened, was concocted as a compromise.
"HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season," Benioff said. "We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends."
And then there’s George RR Martin, who has always thought the show was cutting too much from the books. A long time ago he said the 10 episode seasons should be more like 13, and more recently he’s said that the show could continue well, well beyond eight seasons. Here’s him at the Emmys last year:
"I don't know," Martin said. "Ask David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] when they come through. We could have gone to 11, 12, 13 seasons, but I guess they wanted a life.”
season 6...not perfect, but they delivered great episodes in the Door, Battle of the Bastards, and Winds of Winter while bringing the story to the point they wanted (Cersei on the Iron Throne, Jon King in the North, Sansa all growns up, Arya back as fully trained assassin, Daenerys on her way to Westeros with full armies and dragons).
That was all based on the apparent outline from GRRM, not source material from the books. They just rushed to finish the story over 13 remaining episodes...and to their credit, delivered some amazing cinematography in some (not all) of the major battles.
They just sacrificed a ton in the story telling in the race to finish.
I didn't have the same gripes others had about the final season, but I wasn't a necessarily a fan of the final episode. The only show I ever enjoyed this much was Breaking Bad and I think they stuck the landing, Game of Thrones didn't.
My main gripe with how things ended was how they got there. Danys heel turn was rushed. Bran the King? What an unlikable character, but I am not sure who else becomes King at that point. Maybe if they hadn't made his character so absurd you could've grown to like him "I have to go now"... Can't believe the checked out on LSD guy wins the Game of Thrones.
With that said. I will really miss looking forward to this show. I waited an extra hour or two to watch the final episode. Went and got a nice dinner, checked out the sunset. I was in no rush for this to be the end. I'll rewatch the show eventually. Its my favorite series of all time. I look forward to watching with people who have never seen it before too!
more literally. He can't be "Lord" of any house because he doesn't associate himself with any house. To him he's no longer Stark. And he also can't have any children, which is very important.
So what he was saying was true at the moment, but once Dany died and Jon refused the throne the dynamics changed. Maybe he had some foresight to see this coming, but in general I don't think Bran was being disingenuous when he said what he said
The final episode of "Game of Thrones" brought in a series record of 19.3 million viewers.
The finale, titled "The Iron Throne," broke the record set by last weekend's episode, "The Bells," for which 18.4 million viewers tuned in.
The viewership for "The Iron Throne" includes 13.6 million people who watched the episode on HBO at 9 p.m. Sunday night, making it the most-watched telecast in the network's history, according to HBO. The rest were viewers who watched an encore presentation, or who streamed the show with the HBO Go or HBO Now apps.
Not to detract from the thread, but this is a football site Â
I liked the episode and season more than most but that’s only because so many just hated it. I thought it was ok.
Great show and sad to see the run end. They definitely fell off from their peak when Tywin was so good, but overall I still have good thoughts on this show.
Europe is west of the US. Sure if you go west from CA and keep going west through Asia, yes you can get to Europe by going West from the US. but it's generally accepted that Europe is East of the US.
And Essos is East of Westeros. No idea what's out there between the two and I think that was Arya's point, unless it's a joke I just missed.
For all the whiners, here's the deal, take it or leave it. Me and my fiance re-watched the first 5 and figured out something easy, if you've been a dick, you die. Euron, dick. Dead. Jamie shoves Bran out a window. Dick. Dead. Cersei, too many to count. Dick. Dead. Varys was spying on Dany in two locations and tried to poison her, dick. Dead. Night King, Theon, Walder Frey, Joffrey, The High Sparrow, The Hound, The Mountain, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Mir, Melisandre, the list goes on. Do something treasonous or evil and you die.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
They fucked it so hard I don't even recognize it. Â
The characters and plot may be the same but the show was unrecognizable. If you're happy, great. If the pilot was like the final season we never would have heard of it.
For all the whiners, here's the deal, take it or leave it. Me and my fiance re-watched the first 5 and figured out something easy, if you've been a dick, you die. Euron, dick. Dead. Jamie shoves Bran out a window. Dick. Dead. Cersei, too many to count. Dick. Dead. Varys was spying on Dany in two locations and tried to poison her, dick. Dead. Night King, Theon, Walder Frey, Joffrey, The High Sparrow, The Hound, The Mountain, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Mir, Melisandre, the list goes on. Do something treasonous or evil and you die.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
No criticisms with that, but Dany heel turn is rushed and Bran is a terrible character. Maybe if the writers had built him up instead of "I have to go now" lines then I'd feel different. Still a great show when you take it in its entirety. Gonna switch to reading the books, hope Martin does a better job.
For all the whiners, here's the deal, take it or leave it. Me and my fiance re-watched the first 5 and figured out something easy, if you've been a dick, you die. Euron, dick. Dead. Jamie shoves Bran out a window. Dick. Dead. Cersei, too many to count. Dick. Dead. Varys was spying on Dany in two locations and tried to poison her, dick. Dead. Night King, Theon, Walder Frey, Joffrey, The High Sparrow, The Hound, The Mountain, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Mir, Melisandre, the list goes on. Do something treasonous or evil and you die.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
At the risk of another self righteous thesis...you're full of shit lol.
I think Seasons 6, 7, and 4 were the best.
Although not as good as them, Season 8 had the best cinematography by far, and had 2 of the top 3 battle seasons IMO.
Plus I think the scene where Dany is addressing the army after the victory is outstanding, much better the 2nd time now that I am watching more closely. I love how the Dothrakis are riding in circles hooting it up, while the Unsullied are in a perfect line completely militarize. She spoke to both factions telling them exactly what they wanted to hear.
Also when she approached the stairs with the dragon wings behind her, that was great too.
What a great, great show. I can't imagine a better TV production that the last 8 years have been.
Jon in particular. I am quite satisfied by his arc. I didn't need him to be Aegon Targaryen secret royal King taking his rightful place. To me it makes much more sense for him to be with the Free Folk a people who accepted him before they even knew who he was or how powerful he would get. He also is free from the Westerosi politics he despises. It's a good end for him.
Bran as King...meh, I can see the idea. I'm going to need some more coherent info in the books though, but I get the point they're all going for.
Arya traveling makes a lot of sense too as her hero was Nymeria. It's a very Nymeria end. They didn't make the warrior queen Nymeria clear enough in the show, and that was their fault as I think it would have clicked with more people straight away the symbolism of Arya traveling on a ship to a far away land.
I am satisfied with it. I think the end will age much better than the rest of season 8 will.
why is Jon's claim to the throne more legitimate than Gendry's?
The first Targaryen king became so through conquest I imagine. And Robert Baratheon became king through his rebellion and conquest of Kings Landing.
If Jon's claim is due to his bloodlines to Aegon, then Gendry's supersedes him because Robert was more recently king. If his claim is due to his bloodlines to Dany, then it is likely invalidated by the fact that he was the one to kill Dany and the Unsullied would just kill him instead of making him King, leaving no one with a true claim to the throne.
If anything, I suppose Drogon has the best birthright claim, but he abdicated it when he skipped town.
And so it goes, on and on. Power by birthright leading to more and more bloodshed, and so this incremental step forward by the remaining Lords of Westeros was to try and do away with that and pick a leader based on merit.
For all the whiners, here's the deal, take it or leave it. Me and my fiance re-watched the first 5 and figured out something easy, if you've been a dick, you die. Euron, dick. Dead. Jamie shoves Bran out a window. Dick. Dead. Cersei, too many to count. Dick. Dead. Varys was spying on Dany in two locations and tried to poison her, dick. Dead. Night King, Theon, Walder Frey, Joffrey, The High Sparrow, The Hound, The Mountain, Beric Dondarion, Thoros of Mir, Melisandre, the list goes on. Do something treasonous or evil and you die.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
Yeah... pretty sure you just saw the spoilers on freefolk and posted them.
I guess you would have died this season then. Joey in VA...dick!
Amateur writing, predictable and formulaic “plot lines”, sloppy editing, and a general sense of “we know you’re going to watch it anyway so who cares?”
2 years to make 6 episodes, this was a pathetic final product.
First 2 episodes should’ve been 1, waste of time.
the battle going from hopeless/the world is coming to an end to “hey arya’s Coming out of nowhere and now this 7-season build up is all done” was absurd.
Jamie’s entire story line was a joke this season
But the CGI was great and i’m Sure appealed to the lowest common denominator that just started watching the show because it was “trending”.
Absolutely awful way of ending what could’ve been the best series ever. Interesting how bad the writing gets when the original author isn’t able to carry your storylines.
Dany keeps the throne and starts 'liberating' the rest of Westeros (and the world). Sends Dothraki back to Essos. Arya and Jon go back to Winterfell to help Sansa prepare to defend the North. Bran tells Jon to go North of the Wall to get the Freefolk. Dany's army approaches Winterfell.
Cut to Jon in the north. Children of the Forest plunge an obsidian dagger into his heart. Final shot to end the series is Jon leaning against a tree with the dagger in his heart. Zoom in on his face. Eyes open - they are blue
Fade to black
That took me 10 minutes to think of after I watched the finale last night (after avoiding the internet all day on Sunday and Monday)
Dany keeps the throne and starts 'liberating' the rest of Westeros (and the world). Sends Dothraki back to Essos. Arya and Jon go back to Winterfell to help Sansa prepare to defend the North. Bran tells Jon to go North of the Wall to get the Freefolk. Dany's army approaches Winterfell.
Cut to Jon in the north. Children of the Forest plunge an obsidian dagger into his heart. Final shot to end the series is Jon leaning against a tree with the dagger in his heart. Zoom in on his face. Eyes open - they are blue
Fade to black
That took me 10 minutes to think of after I watched the finale last night (after avoiding the internet all day on Sunday and Monday)
Now that wouldve been an awful ending lol. Sorry, Im not trying to be a dick, but yikes. Why would the Children, if there are even any left, re-create the White Walkers after how badly it backfired the first time they did it? That makes less sense than Joey's "dicks die" trail of breadcrumbs.
I think that is a pretty good list, a lot of my favorites were near the top. It also shows better for Season 8 then some on here portray. 8, like the other seasons, has episodes sprinkled throughout the list
Yes, it was clear as day that Jon would get sent to a non existent Nights Watch. I TOTALLY believe you didn’t read any spoilers on Reddit. You’re just smarter than everyone else. LOL. I’d have more respect for you if you just owned up to the fact that you wanted to be an asshole and ruin the ending for as many people as you could.
You didn’t just reveal the end of the show, you revealed yourself to be the biggest douche on this site, which is saying something. But do the rest of us a favor and put your big boy pants on and own it.
Was Jon pulling a Mance Rayder at the end and deciding to abandon the Night's Watch and live with the Wildlings? Was it a trick all along to confuse Grey Worm who knows nothing about how any of it works, and Jon was not actually being sent there? I don't know, the ending leaves that open and confusing. Because there's no reason for Jon to be riding out with them, it's not like they don't know where they are going and need a guide.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
RE: They should have made it much more clear to the audience Â
Was Jon pulling a Mance Rayder at the end and deciding to abandon the Night's Watch and live with the Wildlings? Was it a trick all along to confuse Grey Worm who knows nothing about how any of it works, and Jon was not actually being sent there? I don't know, the ending leaves that open and confusing. Because there's no reason for Jon to be riding out with them, it's not like they don't know where they are going and need a guide.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
this was my thought:
Quote:
So Jon went
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 10:40 pm : link : reply
on to become Mance Rayder?
There is no Night's Watch (or so it seemed) though we didn't see East Watch I was amazed how much of the wall was rebuilt or we didn't really know how much reanimated Viserys obliterated. Looked like a lot.
Anyway, yes, my assumption is Jon Snow went on to become the new Mance Rayder.
The only real obstacle to believing that was pre-planned is his goodbyes to the Starks. Didn't seem wink wink nod nod to me.
RE: They should have made it much more clear to the audience Â
Was Jon pulling a Mance Rayder at the end and deciding to abandon the Night's Watch and live with the Wildlings? Was it a trick all along to confuse Grey Worm who knows nothing about how any of it works, and Jon was not actually being sent there? I don't know, the ending leaves that open and confusing. Because there's no reason for Jon to be riding out with them, it's not like they don't know where they are going and need a guide.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
They could have made it more clear. I personally think sending him north was more of a gesture than an actual punishment. First off, the Wall isn't in the newly minted 6 Kingdoms, its in The North, meaning its not even in their jurisdiction anymore. I also don't believe there is even a Nights Watch. The entire point of the Watch was to man the Wall and protect the realm from the Others (sorry, White Walkers) and in more recent generations Wildlings. Neither are a threat anymore. I don't know how much or or how little of this Grey Worm knows or understands, but I think saying "we're sending you to the Wall" sounds better and more symbolic than "We're banishing you".
In the end it's probably what Jon would've wanted. He was bound by a sense of duty to a realm that no longer needs him. Which could be why he held to the "sentence" despite the Unsullied, who it was meant to appease, leaving Westeros.
it was just pretty blah in terms of how they got there since they spent so little time establishing Bran as anything more than a meme. I'd have preferred Arya at storm's end but other than that everything made sense - except the unsullied and dothraki putting their war rally rage aside after Dany dies and just packing up their stuff and leaving. Also probably would have made more sense to allow the other kingdoms to all just be their own independent areas like the North with some kind of mutual alliance. Kind of like the commission/5 families.
Also fits with the idea that it certainly seems was part of the ending, that the Starks are essentially a major presence everywhere now. Jon, Sansa, Bran in all of Westeros and Arya is about to be Nymeria 2.0 in a new land. So it makes sense that he would Mance Rayder 2.0. They should have made that more clear though.
I've thought about the Dothraki doing Dothraki shit after Dany dies Â
Im sure there was a lot of unrest and probably a little raping, some minor pillaging (wasn't much left to pillage). I also think the Unsullied would put them in check pretty quickly. I think they held more to Dany's plan of "breaking the wheel" and protecting those who can't protect themselves.
Also I believe a monarch can pardon a member of the Night's Watch Â
So, I don't see any reason to think Sansa if Jon wanted to go into the Northern Kingdom or Bran if he wanted to go somewhere South would have not pardoned him immdiately. So, yeah I guess there was never any expectation from any of them about him staying in the Night's Watch. But then the whole 'who's going to stop you because you're a woman' to Arya about visiting Castle Black...
That's the type of thing I meant, they made it confusing when it probably didn't have to be.
I think he just ended up back to the place he most belonged and free of the burdens he didn't want. He became both lord commander and king of the north begrudgingly. He consistently hated the politics of ruling wherever he was and gave up both positions. If he'd had the chance to be king he wouldn't have wanted it. His first time traveling to king's landing he said "why would anyone live here?". When he was with the freefolk he was most in his element, that's why those ended up some of his main relationships. Mance was almost a mentor, he fell in love, Tormund his most trusted sidekick. Mance united the freefolk to save them and I just don't think there's a purpose to doing that in a broken wall/post-white walker/new night's watch world.
Also if you think about Tormund's quotes/freefolk "we're not clever like you southerners, when we say we'll do something we do it" and the fact that they honored all their pledges that's definitely the most Jon. Moreso than even the northerners + sansa who maneuvered, questioned every decision he made, and broke her promise to him within 90 seconds.
Also fits with the idea that it certainly seems was part of the ending, that the Starks are essentially a major presence everywhere now. Jon, Sansa, Bran in all of Westeros and Arya is about to be Nymeria 2.0 in a new land. So it makes sense that he would Mance Rayder 2.0. They should have made that more clear though.
That’s how I saw the ending too. Kit Harrington could have managed a bit more of a smile at the end, but it seemed clear he went from miserable from prison to Castle Black, to happy once he realized he was going North of the wall to be with the wildlings, who had really become his people. They made a point of showing several wildlings, including children, smiling at him as he rode by them.
They even lingered on a shot of the gate of Castle Black closing behind him, symbolizing him leaving his past in Westeros behind. IMO
I'm not a nitpicker but some nits are too much to ignore Â
Why was Tormund at Castle Black? He left for beyond the wall after the fight for WF. I mean I know why, for a Hollywoood send off, but sheesh. A final shot of Jon finding the wildling camp in the mountains would've made more sense.
RE: I'm not a nitpicker but some nits are too much to ignore Â
Why was Tormund at Castle Black? He left for beyond the wall after the fight for WF. I mean I know why, for a Hollywoood send off, but sheesh. A final shot of Jon finding the wildling camp in the mountains would've made more sense.
He said he’d stay there till the winter storms pass
RE: I'm not a nitpicker but some nits are too much to ignore Â
Why was Tormund at Castle Black? He left for beyond the wall after the fight for WF. I mean I know why, for a Hollywoood send off, but sheesh. A final shot of Jon finding the wildling camp in the mountains would've made more sense.
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
I didnt know irony had a smell. Yet here it is, wafting out of my work monitor.
don't really care if guys on a message board agree with me or not. We are having a discussion about a TV show, we all know as much as the other, or atleast have access to the same information. I'm not up on what Joey posted but spoilers have been posted on countless events, shows, movies on BBI so I wouldn't put it past him.
But nothing like showing up on a thread and calling everyone stupid for not figuring it out! I mean, you know the definition of arrogance, don't you?
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
Again you come along suck the joy out of everything. Joey knows he lied.
The only thing worse than your Game of Thrones takes are your hockey takes.
You come on here and think you are like the angel on Pinto (Larry Kroger's) shoulder, but you really lack self-awareness.
"For shame BBI, how can you accuse brother Joey of a lie without concrete information as to the veracity of this claim"
and then the devil pops up pinto's shoulder and represents most of the rest of us:
"fuck them, fuck joey, fuck 2toiletbowls, fuck them all, he lied and he knows it"
Why couldn't Jon just be "exiled" to Winterfell? Â
The North was granted its independence, and he could have been made a lord by Queen Sansa.
The Night's Watch sentence just made no sense.
It's a historical punishment. I'm not sure it's one that Greyworm would have recognized, but every other person at the table would have seen it as a punishment and a suitable and common alternative to execution. That point, at least they could have communicated to Greyworm.
The North was granted its independence, and he could have been made a lord by Queen Sansa.
The Night's Watch sentence just made no sense.
It's a historical punishment. I'm not sure it's one that Greyworm would have recognized, but every other person at the table would have seen it as a punishment and a suitable and common alternative to execution. That point, at least they could have communicated to Greyworm.
In fact it's the same punishment Ned Stark recommended for Jaime Lanister for killing Aerys and being a "King Slayer"
like Grey worm, Ned didn't understand the far reaching effects killing the monarch would have and simply viewed the killing as dishonorable.
Robert Baratheon, ironically, pardoned Jaime (due to Tywin's influence), but to avoid further war Bran (and he probably knew in the end it's what Jon wanted) offered no such pardon.
that they are changing the way they rule, but are keeping “taking the black” for criminals? What are they protecting up there anyway?
Maybe not quite the same purpose, but the Wights and White Walkers were myths for hundreds of years until proven, who knows what else is there, plus as Tyrion said:
Quote:
The world will always need a home for bastards and broken men.
but that ending made it clear, at least to me, that bastards won’t be a big deal anymore. I get sending people to the wall for punishment, just seems hamfisted.
RE: Yeah, I am sure Joey came up with that take all on his own Â
I don’t believe the ending was THAT much of a surprise as you seem to believe.
I predicted the following:
1. Dany would die
2. Killed by either Jon or Arya
3. Jon doesn’t want the rule so Tyrion takes over
4. Winterfell doesn’t bend the knee to Tyrion
I didn’t predict John going off with Wildings nor did I predict Bran the Broken as the new ruler.
My point being, most of what happened was predictable. So Joeys predictions were not far fetched. But like I said, to call Joey a dick and a liar is rather presumptous and arrogant and like I said, without any evidence to support, his testimony should be considered golden.
But that is the way I think and reason.
RE: RE: Yeah, I am sure Joey came up with that take all on his own Â
I don’t believe the ending was THAT much of a surprise as you seem to believe.
I predicted the following:
1. Dany would die
2. Killed by either Jon or Arya
3. Jon doesn’t want the rule so Tyrion takes over
4. Winterfell doesn’t bend the knee to Tyrion
I didn’t predict John going off with Wildings nor did I predict Bran the Broken as the new ruler.
My point being, most of what happened was predictable. So Joeys predictions were not far fetched. But like I said, to call Joey a dick and a liar is rather presumptous and arrogant and like I said, without any evidence to support, his testimony should be considered golden.
But that is the way I think and reason.
Without any evidence? It's literally in this thread.
The spoilers came out a year ago. Turns out they were right. Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
Lol who is this fingerwagging apologist? Giant Brother - the fuck? Didn't think it was possible to find a worse post than Joey's gutless scramble lie about an omniscient fiancee and brilliant deductive approach of 'if they ever did everything wrong they die' but here we are. You're right, shame on everyone for reacting to what was likely an attempt at malicious 'humor' or just another example of the bullying 'tough dude' personality he puts here that somehow some people buy.
I don't even care that the story was spoiled (it had already been ruined) it's the principle and the hypocrisy - Joey's revealed enough of his personality over the years here that you know such a spineless person would throw a tantrum if something they cared deeper about was ruined for them. I think this is where you should address arrogance, but tell ya what, I'm definitely arrogant enough to say I know your post was fucking dreadful. I suppose I'll continue down my path of overvaluing my own opinion though, thanks.
Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
How stupid do you think people are?
Dude,
I was in the middle of a shit when I read that. Laughed so hard it shot out like a scud missile and the bowl exploded. Water everywhere. Thanks man
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
I didnt know irony had a smell. Yet here it is, wafting out of my work monitor.
HA! Perfect!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Yeah, I am sure Joey came up with that take all on his own Â
Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
How stupid do you think people are?
Dude,
I was in the middle of a shit when I read that. Laughed so hard it shot out like a scud missile and the bowl exploded. Water everywhere. Thanks man
I absolutely hate the pricks calling us, "You shouldn't hate a show coz you didn't like the ending/Not the ending you wanted".
To all those blindly loving this show, here's why:
It tied absolutely no plot ends whatsoever.
What happened to Arya's "wearing faces" thing?
What happened to the Dorne storyline?
Why did no one speak out when the North wanted to be independent? (esp. The Iron Islands)
Why did Brienne leave the north and come south when she pledged to protect Sansa?
Why does Jon have to take the black when there's like 0 threat anymore?
What about the letters which Varys allegedly sent out?
What is the impact of Jon's parentage now?
What is the state of the Vale?
Why didn't Bran warn Dany about the ambush by Euron? (Don't even get me started on the logic or the execution of the ambush)
And for the people saying, don't be so critical of this show:
It's not being over critical. We've been used to stuff being logically and thematically connected and cohesive. Sloppy, CW style writing is not what made GoT popular. Others have asked for these plot lines which went unaddressed (from a comment by u/Remember- below):
What happened to Meera?
What about Howland Reed?
Why did the NK turn on the Children of the Forest?
What is that symbol the NK uses mean?
Can the NK talk?
Who was the person that they turned into the NK?
Why did the NK look different in the Children of the Forest caves in Dragonstone?
What did Varys here in the fire?
What happened to Nymeria?
Is Jaqen going to try and kill Arya?
Did the faceless men know Arya was going to leave them?
Did Syrio live?
What is the backstory behind Arya's dagger?
What happened to the wildling coalition after they went back north?
What was Bran warging in during episode 3?
Did Bran know this was all going to happen?
What was Edmure doing after the freys were killed?
Why did the iron islands just accept Yara again?
What happened to the prophet from Qaath?
Who/what is the lord of light?
What happened with Illyrio and his scheming?
What was the NK's motivation?
Why did he have to kill Bran himself?
What exactly was the connection between the 3 Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest?
What happened with Daario?
What happened to Meeren?
What happened to Aastapor and the other slave cities?
How did Qyburn bring back the mountain, was it science or some sort of blood magic?
What happened/is going to happen with the iron bank?
Who is going to be the head of X, Y, Z houses now?
So what is the deal with the brotherhood now?
Who do the lord of light worshipers follow now, Dany or Jon?
Who was Melisandre?
And yes, not all plot lines can be addressed, that is NOT sloppy writing, but NONE of these were addressed and that is what people are calling sloppy writing (not including the character assassinations)
the explanation at the link below is really nice, and also kind of demonstrates why GRRM's writing was so important for the show.
As for Jon, I think it's deliberately ambiguous. In the books it will necessarily be a POV chapter so at least we'll know what he's thinking. I liked the poster's idea that the wall door closing symbolized Jon's end in Westeros proper, but we'll see. He really is a poetically tragic character and the most like Ned of all of his "children." Link - ( New Window )
Some of those questions are super valid and some less so.
Setting aside that the tv show isn't necessarily the right vehicle to address some of them: Do you even think GRRM will address every one even if he finishes all the books? Sometimes authors and tv shows leave things left unsaid on purpose. (The Russian in the Sopranos episode Pine Barrens obviously died, but they left it somewhat open ended, as an example.) And, as another example, I don't want to know what Varys heard in the fire--I like it better as a mystery.
instead of just sent to Winterfell not only to appease Grey Worm, but also to appease Yara, who made it clear that Dany was her queen. She needed satisfaction as well. The Night's Watch has historically been that type of non-lethal punishment.
That list from freefolk is that of someone with an axe to grind. Some of the questions are valid, some don't need answers, and many are just listed in a way that suggests the author would have come up with endless questions no matter what. It reminded me of the way a child asks for an explanation, and then follows every answer with "but why?" until there is an endless pursuit of frustrating the other party.
much of it at least. Why didn't they ask questions about the Bran the broken sigil? Why not the Stark wolf? or what meal was served at his coronation. How can we go on living without knowing if they had eel and trenchers?
Those are book questions mostly not show questions.
What Martin can write in 1000's of pages would take years to demonstrate on film.
Some legit questions that most of us have already raised, but for me they're just things I wonder about when thinking about the show, not things that ruined it.
instead of just sent to Winterfell not only to appease Grey Worm, but also to appease Yara, who made it clear that Dany was her queen. She needed satisfaction as well. The Night's Watch has historically been that type of non-lethal punishment.
Banished to a kingdom that they no longer control. What motivation does Sansa have to enforce that punishment for the 6 Kingdoms against her cousin?
And why is there even a Night's Watch now?
81 details in GoT Season 8 that you may have missed Â
I absolutely hate the pricks calling us, "You shouldn't hate a show coz you didn't like the ending/Not the ending you wanted".
To all those blindly loving this show, here's why:
It tied absolutely no plot ends whatsoever.
What happened to Arya's "wearing faces" thing?
What happened to the Dorne storyline?
Why did no one speak out when the North wanted to be independent? (esp. The Iron Islands)
Why did Brienne leave the north and come south when she pledged to protect Sansa?
Why does Jon have to take the black when there's like 0 threat anymore?
What about the letters which Varys allegedly sent out?
What is the impact of Jon's parentage now?
What is the state of the Vale?
Why didn't Bran warn Dany about the ambush by Euron? (Don't even get me started on the logic or the execution of the ambush)
And for the people saying, don't be so critical of this show:
It's not being over critical. We've been used to stuff being logically and thematically connected and cohesive. Sloppy, CW style writing is not what made GoT popular. Others have asked for these plot lines which went unaddressed (from a comment by u/Remember- below):
What happened to Meera?
What about Howland Reed?
Why did the NK turn on the Children of the Forest?
What is that symbol the NK uses mean?
Can the NK talk?
Who was the person that they turned into the NK?
Why did the NK look different in the Children of the Forest caves in Dragonstone?
What did Varys here in the fire?
What happened to Nymeria?
Is Jaqen going to try and kill Arya?
Did the faceless men know Arya was going to leave them?
Did Syrio live?
What is the backstory behind Arya's dagger?
What happened to the wildling coalition after they went back north?
What was Bran warging in during episode 3?
Did Bran know this was all going to happen?
What was Edmure doing after the freys were killed?
Why did the iron islands just accept Yara again?
What happened to the prophet from Qaath?
Who/what is the lord of light?
What happened with Illyrio and his scheming?
What was the NK's motivation?
Why did he have to kill Bran himself?
What exactly was the connection between the 3 Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest?
What happened with Daario?
What happened to Meeren?
What happened to Aastapor and the other slave cities?
How did Qyburn bring back the mountain, was it science or some sort of blood magic?
What happened/is going to happen with the iron bank?
Who is going to be the head of X, Y, Z houses now?
So what is the deal with the brotherhood now?
Who do the lord of light worshipers follow now, Dany or Jon?
Who was Melisandre?
And yes, not all plot lines can be addressed, that is NOT sloppy writing, but NONE of these were addressed and that is what people are calling sloppy writing (not including the character assassinations)
Those are some of the silliest, most ridiculous questions/gripes I’ve read to date.
What happened to Nymeria? Who was Melisandre?
Reminds me of my ex sister in law that once complained to me about the ending of Miracle on 54th St, “I hate it when they end movie like that. I wish they showed how they all lived together as a family in the new house!”
Holy no imagination, Batman.
Sure, the writing of this last season wasn’t up to par, but give me a fucking break.
Was the ending that they moved 20 blocks north and had another Miracle Â
after next week's "Behind the Thrones" episode? Not much keeping me with HBO since Thrones is over, I've gone through Sharp Objects, etc. and just about any documentaries that interested me.
after next week's "Behind the Thrones" episode? Not much keeping me with HBO since Thrones is over, I've gone through Sharp Objects, etc. and just about any documentaries that interested me.
Is the Deadwood movie going to be only on HBO?
Would be worth keeping until then (for me).
I also like The Deuce, Succession (another season?) and Silicon Valley but they might not get me to keep it.
after next week's "Behind the Thrones" episode? Not much keeping me with HBO since Thrones is over, I've gone through Sharp Objects, etc. and just about any documentaries that interested me.
I've heard really good things about Chernobyl and Barry. I'm also hopeful for Westworld season 3.
after next week's "Behind the Thrones" episode? Not much keeping me with HBO since Thrones is over, I've gone through Sharp Objects, etc. and just about any documentaries that interested me.
Gonna finish Chernobyl and see Deadwood. After that...probably not.
after next week's "Behind the Thrones" episode? Not much keeping me with HBO since Thrones is over, I've gone through Sharp Objects, etc. and just about any documentaries that interested me.
Arya dies trying to stop him.
Sansa and Tyrion escape.
Jon takes the throne reluctantly.
Jon dies killing Dany and Drogon.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
I'm hoping they have arya kill Dany in Jon Snow's face and Sansa ends up on the throne with Tyrion being her number 2
Jon dies killing Dany and Drogon.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
I did not Know the NK was not in the books.
Interesting. But then I will Change it to Bran somehow creating/ressurecting the NK to kill Dany. He saw the creationof the NK in a vision. (At leastin the show)
Quote:
Gendry and Arya on the throne.
Jon dies killing Dany and Drogon.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
I did not Know the NK was not in the books.
Interesting. But then I will Change it to Bran somehow creating/ressurecting the NK to kill Dany. He saw the creationof the NK in a vision. (At leastin the show)
The NK in theory could be introduced in Winds of Winter or Dream of Spring. But there is already a book character called the Night's King that is different from the Night King, so I doubt it.
but your ending is of course possible.
Expectations subverted, bitches!
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
Quote:
Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
The show is a cash cow. Let's not make excuses for Benioff and Weiss.
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
Gonna be disappointing if Arya doesn’t pull a Faceless Men and put on the face of someone else.
Quote:
Maybe? Could be? I don't have a fooking clue!
I do think that Arya is dead and she is now a ghost. That was my 1st reaction when she got up and saw the white horse. Don't know if my half baked theory has been discussed on BBI or on the 'net.
I am going to miss this show!!!
Gonna be disappointing if Arya doesn’t pull a Faceless Men and put on the face of someone else.
Yes, Arya learned all these crazy skills in the House of Black and White and has basically only used them to kill Walder Frey. Another failure of the writers.
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Has been even more of a joke than last season, only saved by the emotional attachment to the characters and some exceptional performances from some of the actors, such as Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Emilia Clarke, Lena Headey, Maisie Williams, and Conleth Hill.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
The series is incredibly expensive to produce. That is why HBO is just rushing through it. Apparently it costs $15 million each episode to produce and the last episode probably ran over $30 million cause of the CGI. They can't make that back in ticket sales.
The alternative would have been a Lord of the Rings 3 part movie where you would have had to cut 75% of the books out and change a ton of stuff to get the entire story into 9 hours. People complain now about book stuff missing so imagine that.
Personally I am enjoying it but I understand what the criticism is. But with that said the one thing that I will criticize is that HBO went to them and offered the time and money to make this a full season even with extended episodes and D&D refused which tells me they were ready to be done with it and move on to the next Star Wars trilogy
Way to spoil it for people who don’t want to know jackass
I'm hoping they have arya kill Dany in Jon Snow's face and Sansa ends up on the throne with Tyrion being her number 2
Wouldn’t Jon have to be dead for Arya to use his face ???
Link - ( New Window )
Personally I am enjoying it but I understand what the criticism is. But with that said the one thing that I will criticize is that HBO went to them and offered the time and money to make this a full season even with extended episodes and D&D refused which tells me they were ready to be done with it and move on to the next Star Wars trilogy
Agreed. I think these last 2 years were a big writing challenge for them getting so far beyond the source material and they just wanted to end it as simply as they could. S6 was beyond the source material, but all the starting points were setup. Over the normal 10 episodes each major thing that happened got it's own episode and room to breathe. Not everything was perfect, but most of it was well done (the door, sansa/jon, etc) and some of it excellent (finale).
S7 was a contrived plot rush to setup S8 in a certain way, and now S8 has been a sprint to wrap up 10-20 characters plots 7+ years in development. Some worked, far more didn't due to rushed sloppiness - which as you mentioned was their choice. There would have been risks extending it to more episodes also, like dragging things out too much, but at this point it's hard to argue they made the right choice. I think splitting up the 2 major plot resolutions north/south over 2 separate seasons may have been better. S7 could have easily been entirely focused on resolving the white walker storyline, kept Cersei in the south trying to find a way to strengthen her armies, and then let S8 focus on the entire march south.
They need a redo on both 7 & 8. S7 should have been all about Jon convincing Dany to go North and concluding with the battle of winterfell and their forces weakened as Cersei built up her forces in the south. Then s8 could have entirely focused on the battle for KL and the political maneuvering in westeros.
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
2 thoughts -
1) I don't think anyone actually signs petitions expecting anything to happen. I'd venture to guess 99% of people who signed it think it's a joke.
2) the bolded part above is more than little pot calling the kettle black considering all of us here have been inflicted with the same silly notion that our opinions matter about a host of things for 20 years now. It's kind of the entire premise of a message board, which is basically just longer form social media.
There is a difference between cheerleading, venting, discussion, argument versus acting like a toddler who didn't get his/her way.
How many parents have named their babies after Daenerys?
We're talking about people who are having a hard time separating fictional entertainment with reality.
no offense.
How many parents have named their babies after Daenerys?
We're talking about people who are having a hard time separating fictional entertainment with reality.
Did you see the videos after Daniel Jones was drafted? Have you seen the videos of that 50 something year old giants fan Vic ranting and raving over the past several years? Have you seen sports fans literally pay money to fly planes with banners or buy billboard space to get coaches fired? Is that behavior really all that different just because the subject in question is a different genre of entertainment?
I'd rather have him warg into her, then have the 'warged' Dany ....... nsfw.
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On BBI, I was one of the original people who said this season has been subpar, but I feel strongly that people are now overreacting. The epitome of this is the petition to have HBO produce season 8 all over again. (Don't get me started on the over-inflated, narcissistic mentality of the social media warrior who thinks his/her opinion means a damn thing).
Last week was excellent and if they finish with a bittersweet ending tonight, all is well.
2 thoughts -
1) I don't think anyone actually signs petitions expecting anything to happen. I'd venture to guess 99% of people who signed it think it's a joke.
2) the bolded part above is more than little pot calling the kettle black considering all of us here have been inflicted with the same silly notion that our opinions matter about a host of things for 20 years now. It's kind of the entire premise of a message board, which is basically just longer form social media.
I don't use BBI thinking/hoping that the Giants give a rat's ass what I think. I come here to discuss football and other non-football topics with Giants fans I have come to know (digitally) over the years. I think it's a pretty big difference.
What kind of narcissistic moron takes a reaction video of himself? Nobody cares. Get over it dumbass.
I'd like to think the people who comment on this site are above that. (grin)
It really feels like last weeks episode should've been a season finale and that there should be one more season. To know they're going to squeeze a bunch of character's outcomes into 80 minutes feels ridiculous. I've been watching from the very beginning so I'm excited for the episode but at the same time, there's a little bit of dread knowing there's almost zero chance they can do this justice with how rushed it is. I don't mind their writing that much, some of the decisions are stupid, but the real issue with Benioff and Weiss is them trying to fit everything into one season when they needed at least two more. It just shows terrible foresight from them that they didn't see this reaction coming and that they thought they could pull it off after having so many people get invested in their show for so long. It deserved a little more time. But oh well. Here we are. Let's see how they finish it.
There are a few plausible endings and I think we've been over them; if a troll leaked it would just look like informed speculation.
Arya kills Dany
Jon renounces the throne
Gendry gets it by default
Breaking Bad lived in the internet age, and while not everyone was completely satisfied with the end, there wasn't a giant petition to reshoot anything. I don't think most of those million signers really expect a reshoot of season 8.
They're voicing their displeasure. To write off their opinions as some sign of the times is excuse making for what used to be a pretty tightly written show in my opinion.
Breaking Bad lived in the internet age, and while not everyone was completely satisfied with the end, there wasn't a giant petition to reshoot anything. I don't think most of those million signers really expect a reshoot of season 8.
They're voicing their displeasure. To write off their opinions as some sign of the times is excuse making for what used to be a pretty tightly written show in my opinion.
I'm hear for your outrage over the outrage over the outrage.
Jokes aside, parts of it do feel a little rushed, but I've thoroughly enjoyed it. (Euron sucks, was anyone even remotely afraid of that guy?)
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Lol. Link - ( New Window )
They need a redo on both 7 & 8. S7 should have been all about Jon convincing Dany to go North and concluding with the battle of winterfell and their forces weakened as Cersei built up her forces in the south. Then s8 could have entirely focused on the battle for KL and the political maneuvering in westeros.
That would have been more sensible.
In fact, I’m not ever sure they need one central leader. I know Winterfell has no desire to serve a ruler.
And someone please tell me how Daenerys had a fuckton of Unsullied and Dothraki with which to storm Kings Landing with after the Battle of Winterfell? Winterfell was completely overwhelmed and overrun at the point that Arya killed the Night King. Everyone should have been dead save for a few holdouts. The show would've had a ton more credibility had the writers not basically just re-spawned an entire army for Daenerys like a video game. And it's silly that Lady Morning is not going to be able to kill a giant after having her bones and organs crushed. She's dead instantly, come on. I know that is more of a nitpick, but the reason this show was so great was because nobody was safe. No conveniently happy ending because the audience likes the character. Ned Stark's death set the tone, and the Red Wedding, as gut-wrenching and brutal a scene that it was, perhaps the most gut-wrenching and brutal scene in TV history, made the show great. And now you have miracle journeys to save the day from Dragonstone to North of the Wall, you have armies re-spawning and a little girl who was crushed kill a giant.
This show could've been the best show ever, and it's going out rushed, with lazy writing that has been a disservice to the first five seasons of great storytelling.
Couldn’t agree more.
This season has sucked. First 2 episodes could’ve been 1 episode, the battle goes from epic to “let’s have Arya come out of nowhere and end 7 seasons of impending doom in 5 seconds” ... The Lannister storyline, especially Jamie, was awful ...
The cgi on the dragons has been beautiful. I’ve pretty much hated everything about this season otherwise, so formulaic and predictable at times. Amazing how bad the writing gets once the book’s author is doing the work for them.
Already did.
Makes sense.
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A troll could spill here, be warned.
Already did.
Naturally
Those are the leaks as they currently stand.
Jon dies killing Dany and Drogon.
Tyrion is hand of the king, and he kills Greyworm.
Sansa lady of winterfell and ward of the North.
Bran doesn't become the NK, NK is dead (and only a show creation I believe), Bran becomes the 3-eyed Raven intertwined with a weirwood tree near Winterfell.
Brienne kills Bronn. Maybe a Tormund Giantsbane appearance either giving his life to save Brienne or winding up banging her.
What would he save her from? That story arc is all but done.
Maybe the last 15 minutes will bring “us” redemption
Us=everyone who thought the last two weeks writing were bad
She’s right, this is brutal. What am I watching?
I feel like I was watching the end of a sappy comedy
The books - if GRRM ever finishes them - had better be more interesting than that.
I have a question:
This series is for mature audiences, right? Why do I feel like a teenage girl after watching that shit?
Huh? How?
Drogon sees his mother die and instead of burning the person who killed her, Drogon knows that the cause of her downfall was the Iron Throne so he burns it. Awesome. Nice to know a dragon has that kind of awareness.
That's about as forced of a poetic justice as I've ever seen
So...predictable?
I guess it's about as happy as any of them can hope for in the world they live in.
I agree
I feel like I was watching the end of a sappy comedy
I took some heat for criticizing the writing last week...I’m sure there will be some here who absolutely loved this finale and will be upset in those who don’t. But that is okay....there are some here who are also mad at me for loving our draft and our future phenom qb. I have thick skin.
He. Killed. His. Mother.
I guess it's about as happy as any of them can hope for in the world they live in.
That's what history is.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
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the dragons had a connection to Jon to. Perhaps you missed that?
He. Killed. His. Mother.
A few seasons ago, Tyrian said something that dragons are as intelligent as humans, if not more. The dragon knew the throne was her downfall and cause of all the wars. So he burned it.
I guess Jon killing Dany is the third “holy shit” moment that GRRM told the show runners.
Again, that was expected. Everyone and their mother knew Dany was a goner this episode. But the rest of the episode? Sentimental garbage that was not at all in tune with the previous seasons. That was the good thing about GoT: they cut out the generic, typical Hollywood bullshit and replaced it with raw honesty and realism. This felt like a Hollywood ending if ever there was one.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
Wow, you're really wrapped up in this fictional character Dany, aren't you? Relative of the actress?
When I realized the scene In front of the tribunal wasn’t a dream of Tyrion’s and it was really happening I thought maybe Bron would turn into the NK. Then it just kept going where it was heading. It’s the how they got to the end that was just flat.
So what? Dany was his mother.
If you saw a relative kill your mother, you would look the other way?
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Dany, the dragons, the Dothraki, and Unsullied did the heavy lifting against the supposed existential threat in the Night King, then everyone said, "Thank GOD" she's gone.
I'm salty... forgive me. Everyone at that meeting would've been dead if not for her and no one gave her a second thought except Yara.
Wow, you're really wrapped up in this fictional character Dany, aren't you? Relative of the actress?
You're commenting on a fictional show too. Don't pretend you're on a higher plane of rationality.
The only thing I didn't like was grey worm being appeased so easily. It always seemed to me the unsullied, being eunochs don't want sex, don't want power, don't want material gain, they just want a leaser to be loyal to and orders to follow - they seemed to take pride in their slavery.
thought that was kind of weak.
I wish Bran spoke more, seems like every time he opens his mouth it's like "Confucius says..."
not what I predicted or expected, but no real complaints that are impactful.
better ending than many shows that went this long.
That's how I feel. I didn't expect them to sum things up that well in one episode, not that it was something great or amazing but they tied stuff together well enough considering what they had to work with.
Wasn't an amazing finale but it wasn't the worst piece of shit ever which is what most people will say. Most people will be pissed off because characters didn't end up where they wanted them to, though. I think the worst send off was arya's. I guess it's the only thing that makes sense for her character but it's just kind of lame. On the flip side, it's nice to see those characters end up on the council at the end.
Eric I’m glad you loved it but the whole world knew this ending would happen save Bran become top ruler.
Like I previously said I’m glad you few people out there who liked it, can go to sleep with a big smile of contentment. For what it’s worth, I’m sure this will be the lowest rated episode of all of them.
Glad you liked it.
My only surprise/gripe was the Bran/Jon angle. Thought Jon should have been the kind but then people would have just said it was even more obvious and predictable. In the end, the Starks all ended up going out the way they wanted it seemed.
The Dany/Dragon stuff prior was perfect. We all knew she had to die and Jon was likely the guy to do it. They executed it well.
I actually liked the Small Council meeting. Nice reminder that after all the big drama of war and magic, there are bills to pay and a kingdom to rebuild, as there were after Robert’s rebellion and all the wars before and since. As Joffrey’s Hand, Tyrion was just keeping the seat warm for Tywin. Now he’s really doing the job, and might be ready for it.
The final montage was OK. Missed opportunities there, especially the chance to show a visual clue about the White Walker Spirogram as Jon rose north with the Wildlings.
That was a great scene. The rest? Garbage. Utter garbage.
And Bran being the King just...flat-out sucks. I thought he was consistently the worst character on the show.
Bran/ Tyrion/ Sansa et al, sentence john to a nigt's watch that doesn't exist and allows him to live the way he was happiest: north of the wall. Bran being king... whatever, but at least Sansa declared her independence. I really thought this was a great ending to a phenomenal series. And not for nothing, but those of you that are complaining about the last 2 seasons shouldn't be bitching to the showrunners, you should be banging down the door of GRRM. It doesn't take six fucking years to write a book.
The only thing I didn't like was grey worm being appeased so easily. It always seemed to me the unsullied, being eunochs don't want sex, don't want power, don't want material gain, they just want a leaser to be loyal to and orders to follow - they seemed to take pride in their slavery.
thought that was kind of weak.
I wish Bran spoke more, seems like every time he opens his mouth it's like "Confucius says..."
not what I predicted or expected, but no real complaints that are impactful.
better ending than many shows that went this long.
Well said.
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Not bad at all.
That's how I feel. I didn't expect them to sum things up that well in one episode, not that it was something great or amazing but they tied stuff together well enough considering what they had to work with.
Wasn't an amazing finale but it wasn't the worst piece of shit ever which is what most people will say. Most people will be pissed off because characters didn't end up where they wanted them to, though. I think the worst send off was arya's. I guess it's the only thing that makes sense for her character but it's just kind of lame. On the flip side, it's nice to see those characters end up on the council at the end.
Arya didn't want to rule so it made sense she would want to explore/discover the world. Agree with your sentiment.
Yeah...that was kinda dumb.
- Bran the Broken
Ive not been as critical of other episodes as some others have been, but this ending was dumb.
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now. I'm not sure what some of you expected. This show was always going to have a bittersweet ending... it was just a matter of who lived and who died. Most of the characters were tragic in nature.
Most of the character arcs felt "right." It felt right for Jamie to die with Cersi. It felt right for Sansa to become queen (of the north). It felt right for Arya to go off on her own. Dany's end was predestined.
After a weak middle, I thought they ended strong. I now want to re-watch it all again to pick up the cues, which are there.
time travel everyone from all parts are there for a councel in a day.
other than that John belonged in the North, Sansa wanted winterfell to be on it's own and was granted, They sure can clean up a devastated city pretty quick
For the same reason why it took so long for Europeans to cross the Atlantic.
Lol Inspector Drogon checked out the murder scene and concluded it was an accident and melts a chair instead.
time travel everyone from all parts are there for a councel in a day.
other than that John belonged in the North, Sansa wanted winterfell to be on it's own and was granted, They sure can clean up a devastated city pretty quick
You didn't pick up the fact that Tyrion was in the cell for weeks. Not only did they mention it, but his beard was much longer.
Agreed! Absolutely, it was tragic, painful, and epic. That whole Grapes of Wrath thing with Dani was absolutely gut-wrenching. The whole episode had a beauty to it.
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Westeros? I mean you’ve been fighting over the realms all these years. Turns out you could just go west and nobody would bother you. That would have been my escape route in season 4 or 5 if I was Tyrion when he had to be snuck out after killing his father. GO WEST THEY WILL NEVER LOOK FOR US THERE.
For the same reason why it took so long for Europeans to cross the Atlantic.
Eh, Targaryens could fly there on their dragons. And the iron island folks never thought about sailing there? I know it’s nitpicking but it was many head scratchers.
- Bran the Broken
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
On the other hand, he immediately blows off his punishment and heads north with his injured pet and his best friend, doubtless to father lots of Quarter-dragonblooded children with hot redheads.
Fairly certain all the Nights Watch were dead. And what's there to watch, anyways?
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now. I'm not sure what some of you expected. This show was always going to have a bittersweet ending... it was just a matter of who lived and who died. Most of the characters were tragic in nature.
agree 10000000%
Most of the character arcs felt "right." It felt right for Jamie to die with Cersi. It felt right for Sansa to become queen (of the north). It felt right for Arya to go off on her own. Dany's end was predestined.
After a weak middle, I thought they ended strong. I now want to re-watch it all again to pick up the cues, which are there.
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
The Bran is king part makes no sense. Nobody but maybe three people on the dais knew his story and likely only those three people had ever heard of the term 3-eyed raven. These big medieval guys are just going to accept a cripple as king because a dwarf they all hated told a story? And, they’re going to put a northerner, who was always an arch enemy of the Iron Born and something completely foreign to the southerners on the throne? Unh-huh.
I do get why it couldn’t be Jon though. The way it played it, no way it could be him.
I, and probably every other person watching, knew that someone was getting knifed in the embrace (a very formulaic, clicheic action for tv, btw) it I was 50-50 on who it was going to be.
ISN'T THAT PRECIOUS?
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But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
So basically what this whole season was...
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But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
I guess Jon killing Dany is the third “holy shit” moment that GRRM told the show runners.
I think the 3rd oh shit moment last week. This week was highly predictable after the bells rung last week..
Overall this was good.. the problems over the past 2 season had to do with pacing.. and not showing the proper character development to get Dany from khaleesi to Mad Queen.. but outside of that the overall story and the show was really good.
Sure it did. It prevented a Jon-Dany union earlier, and directly led to her conclusion that she could only rule by fear. The word was already out on Jon. The tragedy of her character was that in many ways, she was right. It also became ironic that the woman who was born of royal blood in that land ultimately was perceived as an outsider at the head of a foreign invaders.
Dany was the epitome of the tragic figure. In some ways, a tragic heroine who outlived her usefulness as soon as the undead were destroyed. There are many parallels to this in Greek mythology, American Westerns, and hell even Dirty Harry.
Many of the end crew had ambition in their arc. Many moved through the narrative by making choices and acting upon those choices. The books are about those who act
To me, Bran the Broken ( who makes no choices and is the very definition of an observers observer) is a way to appease all the fans who would have jumped out a tower window if their fave did not win.
This ending set up the maximum number of sequels and had the maximum number of characters live.
Im glad some degree of merit within an oligarchy replaces inheritance in the mad world but other than that, notice the ending served to start spinoffs?
Thankfully, that pirate cartoon character wont be in one of them
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In comment 14449277 Anakim said:
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But for those who enjoyed the ending, what would've been a realistic BAD ending in your minds?
Character arcs NOT being tied up correctly? Bad acting? Bad writing? A cute cliff hanger that many shows are annoyingly going to these days? I can go on...
well, you *did* get bad acting and bad writing. So, it must be all or none for you. (I suspect you’re fibbing. You would have applauded a test pattern).
In this episode? Nope. Dont feel like I did.
So....?
As they wrapped up the scene with the small council, and all the guys arguing with each other, I did kinda get a Seinfeld, "jail cell" vibe.
I'll bet you anything HBO does a feature where we get some continuation of the story, like they did for Deadwood. Hopefully not making us wait 15 years to see it.
Jon's ending? Garbage.
Arya? Suiting, but boring.
Sansa? Predictable.
Tyrion? Boring.
And Bronn comes out of nowhere and is a good guy again. Cool.
A+ from me.
It's not even worth the effort listing all the reasons to mock this episode.
Not the worst ending. Knew what was going to happen with Dany and it had to be Jon. A little disappointing it wasn’t him ruling he is the last Targaryen, would be a dissapointing way for his arc to go if that is how it is in the book.
Just feel that this show was at its peak when it actually ran a little slow. We had he beat writing and acting, best character developments, and it is what made this show what it was. The past 2 seasons where the pace picked up and the show got beyond the material of the books a lot suffered and it became obvious. Certainly wasn’t awful, he’ll I kept watching, but it’s more like their were 2 eras for this show after a certain point.
A+ from me.
LOL.
pleasing everyone.
They apparently were cool with their queen being murdered and were given unemployment benefits and a ferry ticket home.
Most people are not upset about the individual outcomes but that the writing that led to these outcomes was not believable.
Not quite. Only the people who knew Jon cared for him being treated leniently. The rest of Westeros is still operating under the idea that killing a king/queen is bad no matter who it is. Yara was another person that spoke up about this - it wasn't just the unsullied.
Not the worst ending. Knew what was going to happen with Dany and it had to be Jon. A little disappointing it wasn’t him ruling he is the last Targaryen, would be a dissapointing way for his arc to go if that is how it is in the book.
Just feel that this show was at its peak when it actually ran a little slow. We had he beat writing and acting, best character developments, and it is what made this show what it was. The past 2 seasons where the pace picked up and the show got beyond the material of the books a lot suffered and it became obvious. Certainly wasn’t awful, he’ll I kept watching, but it’s more like their were 2 eras for this show after a certain point.
Agreed about the eras. The Martin era and the Hollywood era.
pleasing everyone.
So they pleased no one? Cool. Good compromise.
'Dragons understand the concept of symbolism confirmed.'
'I legitimately can't believe how quickly they breezed over Daenerys's death, one of the most important characters in the entire series. The scene IMMEDIATELY following her being stabbed to death had an almost laughably relaxed tone, everyone just sitting around casually shooting the shit about who to pick to replace her. It was literally meant to be a comedy scene with like 3 or 4 jokes and almost zero mention of Daenerys. That is a comically jarring decision by the writers that completely decimated any emotional impact her death may have had. Was this written by a middle schooler?'
Sometimes things are what they really are.
pleasing everyone.
Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
I think the hallmark of the entire show from beginning to end will be the characters and the interaction between the characters. For most of the series, the "plot" felt like more natural background to the interplay by the characters. Part of the problem for the last season was the pacing. That was my biggest criticism, followed by there were better ways to get from one point of the story to the other.
But the final season was always going to have the structural issue that THE PLOT was going to have to overtake the character interplay because they had to wrap this up. I think that's why it FELT different to so many. (And that indirectly affected the pacing).
What I will remember most about this series is how they made these fictional characters mean something to the viewer. It felt natural and real. Very few characters were pure good (Brienne) or evil (Ramseys, Joffre). Most were shades of gray. Many ended up being tragic figures. But that's kind of like how life really is.
Jon's ending? Garbage.
Arya? Suiting, but boring.
Sansa? Predictable.
Tyrion? Boring.
And Bronn comes out of nowhere and is a good guy again. Cool.
What else could you really want for Sansa and Tyrion? Unless he's ruling over Casterly Rock, hand of the king is about the best Tyrion could do at this point. Like Bran said, he kind of deserves it. Can't be upset about him being in that spot. What would unpredictable be for him? Killed off? Then you'd really see people in an uproar and it would seem like they're only doing it for shock value, not for the story.
I saw lots of people saying they wanted Sansa on the iron throne. That was never going to happen but she ends up as Queen in the north. Which is where she belongs, really. What would be unpredictable for her aside from being queen of the seven kingdoms? Which was never going to happen unless you thought Bran would be king in the north. You could maybe swap them but that's about it.
'Dragons understand the concept of symbolism confirmed.'
'I legitimately can't believe how quickly they breezed over Daenerys's death, one of the most important characters in the entire series. The scene IMMEDIATELY following her being stabbed to death had an almost laughably relaxed tone, everyone just sitting around casually shooting the shit about who to pick to replace her. It was literally meant to be a comedy scene with like 3 or 4 jokes and almost zero mention of Daenerys. That is a comically jarring decision by the writers that completely decimated any emotional impact her death may have had. Was this written by a middle schooler?'
I feel you on this post. As for Winterfell being special, it just had to be that way. They never did want to bend the knee to anyone so they got what they always wanted. Like you said, the other thrones obviously don’t care like they do. Don’t ask me why not? I asked the same question to my wife and she didn’t have an answer either.
Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
I seem to recall a lot of people bitching about the final season of Breaking Bad too. And The Wire and The Sopranos. Maybe that's just something we do. Maybe the writing has no choice but to fall off after several seasons.
I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now
The same mob that absolutely adored this show for almost a decade? Why was their opinion valid in the beginning but isn't now?
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
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To those circular patterns.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show
add it to the list....
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I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now
The same mob that absolutely adored this show for almost a decade? Why was their opinion valid in the beginning but isn't now?
The answer that appears to me is....Eric is calling those who don’t like some episodes that he likes .....the mob. I don’t think he would be calling us the mob if he disliked the writing as much as we have.
That was the only thing about the episode that sort of pissed me off. Jon rides north with the Freefolk, right into the area where the first massacre took place in S1E1. The showrunners could easily have tossed us a bone with a visual reference to the spirals. Even if it was a Rosebud-style letdown, we would have gotten something.
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I railed against three three of the six episodes this season, but I strongly feel that a mob mentality has taken over regarding this show now
The same mob that absolutely adored this show for almost a decade? Why was their opinion valid in the beginning but isn't now?
The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
From beginning to end, Game of Thrones was a treat. And it's one of the very few series I have and will re-watch multiple times.
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Maybe they should have talked with the writer of BREAKING BAD, Vince Gillian I think his name is. One of the Best final seasons and final episode in a tv series I’ve seen.
I seem to recall a lot of people bitching about the final season of Breaking Bad too. And The Wire and The Sopranos. Maybe that's just something we do. Maybe the writing has no choice but to fall off after several seasons.
Not the entire seasons. Hating an ending is a given for at least half an audience. Hating every aspect of a season is a whole other ball of wax. Sopranos final season was epic. The end wasn’t what everyone wanted. But that was only the last five seconds of the show. Not 6 episodes.
I'm old enough to remember when he was an awesome character.
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To those circular patterns.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
And Tyrion's speech was a little too "explainy" about why Bran should be King - that scene could have been done more smoothly. But overall I liked the rest of the episode.
Glad that they brought back some characters that we thought we wouldn't see again after episode 4, including Ghost. Tyrion hosting the counsil meeting with Davos, Bronn, Sam, Brienne was really entertaining.
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In comment 14449316 RobCarpenter said:
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To those circular patterns.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think we're getting a feature in a few years. Drogon carrying Dany off was just weird. Maybe she comes back as the Ice Queen. That'd be bad ass.
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In comment 14449316 RobCarpenter said:
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To those circular patterns.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think they showed the pattern maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of the series. I never thought it was a big deal - just figured that it was some sort of trademark that they tend leave.
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
@Independent
Kit Harington defends Game of Thrones' final episode from accusations of 'sexism'
Oh for God's sake...
The author has been a consultant on the series. The foreshadowing of the end was there in the earlier seasons.
The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
1. I think the simpler explanation is that the show just declined substantially in quality. That same mob probably watched Breaking Bad. Where was the mass outcry when that ended? Some weren't completely satisfied, but the overall reviews for the final season and the series were outstanding. It was a well written show that didn't leave any loose ends, didn't build characters for years only to fumble for an ending. The reviews for GoT final two seasons, professionals and fans, are mixed at best. By the way, the mob includes the cast of the show.
2. While many are shocked and upset by Dany, I would argue more people are in the camp that the show generally just did a poor job bringing everything to the screen. There was a building criticism of the show from last season until before Dany turned. How do you explain that? That's not just emotional attachment to one character.
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is the enlightened position - this was abjectly terrible and sometimes the mob is correct. You are cartwheeling explanations in there about massive plot holes as if people already decided they were going to hate it and therefore don't see the 'brilliance' which set things up but the reality is the showrunners wanted to fuck off to Star Wars and put a perfunctory effort into ending what could've been the best show put to television.
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
Nitro, I'm pretty sure you went into tonight's season finale already convinced it would suck.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I mean by tonight there was only so much recovering from the irrevocable tailspin they had been diving in for half a 'season'. Again - it's not the conclusions they drew, for the most part they're all... fine. It's the unearned and rushed paths they used to get there.
The final three seasons suffered from a drop in writing but mostly suffered from awful pacing which directly contradicted the show's time rules and approach which preceded it. A season to get to King's Landing early on - now you can teleport as the plot demands.
I actually anticipate the opposite - what's going to happen is people who didn't watch will ask their friends who did if they should bother, and it's hard to recommend something which despite it's high points basically finished in such an anti-climatic blue balls. This is Lost 2.0, and what's the lasting legacy of that show?
That was a great scene. The rest? Garbage. Utter garbage.
And Bran being the King just...flat-out sucks. I thought he was consistently the worst character on the show.
I'm still on PST, debating about whether I'll watch this tonight or will just catch up on Chernobyl after I put the kids to bed.
Reading about Bran being king makes me feel I won't bother until tomorrow.
Here I was all week thinking a building fell on them. Head fake!
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The same mob often blindly rejected ANY criticism. You saw it here on BBI, not just social media platforms across the net. As if on cue, the mob seems to have determined that the popular thing now is to bash the show. Despite the multitudes of warnings about Dany (which Tyrion ACTUALLY highlight in TONIGHT'S episode) you have millions of people out there who can't accept the obvious realistic path she took... it's like they somehow are personally offended by it all... very bizarre.
1. I think the simpler explanation is that the show just declined substantially in quality. That same mob probably watched Breaking Bad. Where was the mass outcry when that ended? Some weren't completely satisfied, but the overall reviews for the final season and the series were outstanding. It was a well written show that didn't leave any loose ends, didn't build characters for years only to fumble for an ending. The reviews for GoT final two seasons, professionals and fans, are mixed at best. By the way, the mob includes the cast of the show.
2. While many are shocked and upset by Dany, I would argue more people are in the camp that the show generally just did a poor job bringing everything to the screen. There was a building criticism of the show from last season until before Dany turned. How do you explain that? That's not just emotional attachment to one character.
But at least they discarded the idea of Bran giving a king’s acceptance speech and thanking his second family, like Meera, Hodar, Howard, and Raj.
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
Here I was all week thinking a building fell on them. Head fake!
yea that was pretty dumb too. if only they took 5 steps to the left they could have lived
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Tyrion going through the rubble and finding his sister and brother and then breaking down.
That was a great scene. The rest? Garbage. Utter garbage.
And Bran being the King just...flat-out sucks. I thought he was consistently the worst character on the show.
I'm still on PST, debating about whether I'll watch this tonight or will just catch up on Chernobyl after I put the kids to bed.
Reading about Bran being king makes me feel I won't bother until tomorrow.
Chernobyl is good, but MY LORD is it depressing. (Not that I was expecting Seinfeld, but it's grimmer than grim.)
(2) When I came on BBI after episode #1 and #3 of this season and criticized it, people on this site jumped down my throat. Something really snapped around episode #4 and #5 for most people. The herd went in the opposite direction. What's funny is you have Star Wars YouTubers out there mocking the show, and yet they freely admit they don't even watch. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon now.
I stick with my original criticisms: episodes #1, #3, and #4 could have been done far better. But I really enjoyed #2, #5, and #6. The highlight was #5. I'll always remember that episode for it's sheer impact from start to finish with multiple characters (the scene where Jamie and Tyrion part is superb for example). My main criticism overall was the pacing. But the end made sense to me. Tragic sense. It wasn't a Hollywood finish. It was bittersweet.
Lol, I can just imagine GRRM reading the internet and saying "Note to self: the last two books should be very different from the show."
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
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Tyrion going through the rubble and finding his sister and brother and then breaking down.
That was a great scene. The rest? Garbage. Utter garbage.
And Bran being the King just...flat-out sucks. I thought he was consistently the worst character on the show.
I'm still on PST, debating about whether I'll watch this tonight or will just catch up on Chernobyl after I put the kids to bed.
Reading about Bran being king makes me feel I won't bother until tomorrow.
Why the hell would you go on this thread before watching it?
One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
(2) When I came on BBI after episode #1 and #3 of this season and criticized it, people on this site jumped down my throat. Something really snapped around episode #4 and #5 for most people. The herd went in the opposite direction. What's funny is you have Star Wars YouTubers out there mocking the show, and yet they freely admit they don't even watch. Everyone seems to be jumping on the bandwagon now.
I stick with my original criticisms: episodes #1, #3, and #4 could have been done far better. But I really enjoyed #2, #5, and #6. The highlight was #5. I'll always remember that episode for it's sheer impact from start to finish with multiple characters (the scene where Jamie and Tyrion part is superb for example). My main criticism overall was the pacing. But the end made sense to me. Tragic sense. It wasn't a Hollywood finish. It was bittersweet.
I have to admit I am taking great pleasure in all the people who named their daughters "Khaleesi."
I think the Star Wars link is that D&D are going to be the writer/directors of future Star Wars movies. I know some of my Star Wars buds are not happy at that prospect now.
Agree to disagree on the show, but I'm glad it was satisfying to someone.
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Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
I posted a warning. It’s inevitable that someone would post a spoiler, that’s just the nature of message boards.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
just like those that spoiled the Avengers Endgame ending. F U
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Also, how about a big FUCK YOU to Joey in Va for a massive spoiler post earlier on this thread without warning. I wasn't here to read it so it didn't affect me but I'm sure he helped to ruin the ending for many who did. I hope this helped to scratch a little bit of that misanthropic itch for a while.
A huge douche move.
I actually saw his post earlier today, but was just skimming the thread and didn't really commit it to memory.
Intentionally stayed off the internet today to avoid that, but really sad to hear someone did that on BBI, which is generally pretty good about such things. Fuck him for posting spoilers.
As for the ending, I’m fine with it. Predictable, sure. After Dany’s death, they really could have used another episode to play out the ending, but oh well.
High notes of the finale: Brienne finishing Jaime’s page, Sansa holding out for independence, and the final small council meeting was amusing.
Shows that get this big are almost impossible to write to a satisfying ending. I figured this thread would turn into a colossal bitch fest, which is of course every fan’s right. But I also agree a lot of folks (not just here) have gone way over the top with the obsessive criticism.
But whatever...it’s been fun discussing the show on here with y’all over the years.
I mean by tonight there was only so much recovering from the irrevocable tailspin they had been diving in for half a 'season'. Again - it's not the conclusions they drew, for the most part they're all... fine. It's the unearned and rushed paths they used to get there.
I think that's pretty spot on. If you had told me after season 5 that Dany would wind up turning mad, Jon's destiny was to stop her, Tyrion would become Hand of the King, and Bran would be the king, I would have been fine with it and thought it all plausible. I would have been most doubtful of Bran's ending, but they obviously were trying to build him up to be something important in books and show.
How they got there and the fact that D&D asked for the last two seasons to be shorter is a mystery to me.
Overall I thought the ep itself was a little boring but I feel that way about most of the last eps in each season. The penultimate ep is always the best of each season and that was the case this season. I liked most of the character endings (Sansa, brienne, jon, sam, and Tyrion). Really glad Tyrion didn’t go out and got some redemption after bumbling around the last season or two
Fuck him.
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In comment 14449331 eclipz928 said:
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In comment 14449316 RobCarpenter said:
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To those circular patterns.
Wasn't specifically addressed in the show, but the spiral patterns of the white walkers seem very similar the Targaryen banner with the 3-headed dragon forming a spiral shape. And recall that the Night King was immune to the fire from Dany's dragon - it may just be that the Night King is also of Targaryen ancestry.
So why did the show keep making a big deal of something that is never explained?
I think they showed the pattern maybe 3 or 4 times over the course of the series. I never thought it was a big deal - just figured that it was some sort of trademark that they tend leave.
It was explained I believe by the writers that the circle pattern was the symbol of the children of the forest and basically the NK giving them the equivalent of the finger
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
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One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
That and also Dany’s speech saying that she gets to choose to rule the masses with mass murder. Writers made her into Stalin to justify the abrupt assasination.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
My question is, where the hell was everyone going in that last shot? What's north of the wall?
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
She was cent to the black cells to watch her daughter die slowly and her body rot. Assuming the ceiling collapsed on her if she is still alive
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Dude, don't ask questions.
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Why is there still a Night's Watch?
My question is, where the hell was everyone going in that last shot? What's north of the wall?
After the battle of Winterfell, Tormund said he would take his people back North of the wall to wander. He also dropped the line to Jon that he has the “real” North in him.
I think what they were going for in the end was Jon was miserable after what he had to do (kill Dany), then by being sent back to Castle Black. But once he went North of the wall again with the free folk, he realized they were his actually people and he was going home.
Fascist elite bastards.
Throw open the gates, let the wildlings settle north or south of the wall, and travel and trade back and forth with each other.
But those kind of logical questionsp needed to be suspended a few seasons ago now
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In comment 14449376 bceagle05 said:
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One other gripe: if Bran was to be king, the show should've spent more time with him (as the books do). The character was sidelined for an entire season while we suffered through Grey Worm and Missandei's brutal love story and other filler.
amen. They cut out good content from the books and/or spending time with more critical characters/plots from the show, but we have to endure filler like that. Greyworm has to be the worst character on the show and those scenes are just brutal
That and also Dany’s speech saying that she gets to choose to rule the masses with mass murder. Writers made her into Stalin to justify the abrupt assasination.
A true Stalin would never let herself be assassinated so easily. These types are paranoid of everyone. There's a reason for the purges and night of long knives type stuff. Dany wasn't really that way. Maybe in time she would have been but the writers didn't really show us that. The turn last week just didn't work for me and that made tonight's show inevitably a fail.
And hard to think which is lamer Bran as King or Tyrion getting to play king maker. Very unlike early Game of Thrones where power would have decided these things not speeches. The Unsullied and Dothraki seemingly had a lot of troops however implausible that seems after the Battle of Winterfell and they just abdicate it and say yeah okay, we'll leave and let this kid take over and let Tyrion who betrayed our beloved Queen and Jon who killed her off the hook? Didn't buy it.
I should really stop pondering these things and live with the ending
- Tyrion’s line about ask me in ten years if killing Dany was right
- The banter, and seeming pointlessness of the high council discussion post Dany
- Jon feeling empty after the deed and after his hemorrhage of power
The season (and ending) was deeply unsatisfying, which is likely the point.
At the end of the day what the people want is a warm bed and freedom from war/death and Bran was the compromise candidate that everyone could tolerate.
Still think the whole night king thing was bungled and mostly seemed pointless
Sansa got to declare independence. Why couldn't Yara say, "Oh wait... that's an option? I want to be independent too!"
Throw open the gates, let the wildlings settle north or south of the wall, and travel and trade back and forth with each other.
But those kind of logical questionsp needed to be suspended a few seasons ago now
Nights watch needs to be repurposed or else Coin Master Bronn will have to cut their budget.
Dexter was bad and I hated it long before the finale.
I cant say that about GOT. I liked it for the most part, until the end. The end sucked.
Yeah, that was handled terribly. Why didn't Sam speak up on Jon's behalf? Jon should've told Tyrion, Bran, Grey Worm and the rest to go home and get their shine boxes.
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
Yeah, that was handled terribly. Why didn't Sam speak up on Jon's behalf? Jon should've told Tyrion, Bran, Grey Worm and the rest to go home and get their shine boxes.
Yea...someone could have at least mentioned the fact that Jon is actually Aegon Targaryen and has claim to the throne.
Not saying he had to be the King, but no one thought that was important??? The only reason it was written into the show was to drive a wedge between him and Dany?
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Who said he wanted to?
Explain why Bran took it after leading everyone to believe he could never do such a thing?
A lot of it made no sense at all, but that's pretty much par for the course in season 7/8 of this show.
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Jon Snow did not want to rule the 6-7 Kingdoms.
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Who said he wanted to?
Explain why Bran took it after leading everyone to believe he could never do such a thing?
Sorry, remind me - before tonight, when did anyone ever float the idea of Bran becoming King?
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
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In comment 14449420 BlackLight said:
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Jon Snow did not want to rule the 6-7 Kingdoms.
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Who said he wanted to?
Explain why Bran took it after leading everyone to believe he could never do such a thing?
Sorry, remind me - before tonight, when did anyone ever float the idea of Bran becoming King?
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
There were things in this episode that were well done but by and large most of the narrative stopped making sense when they decided to try to capture a wight and I guess there just wasn't much they could do to "unfuck" everything. These last 2 seasons were a handful of good moments, extremely well done battle sequences, and writing stringing it all together that was so far beneath the 6 seasons that came prior it kind of amazes me that anyone is being critical of those disappointed. I don't care that they killed Dany. I don't care that they turned her into a heel. I'm disappointed that the past 2 seasons were sloppy, rushed, and extremely bizarre in their choices of what to do with characters. But hey, at least we got to see Edmure's elevator pitch to be king. That was definitely time well spent.
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In comment 14449429 halfback20 said:
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
If you read between the lines of interviews with D&D and GRRM, it's apparent that D&D changed things in the show whenever the audience was able to guess outcomes of major plot points. I think that explains why Arya was the surprise killer of the Night King and Jon's Targaryen lineage and magical resurrection had zero bearing on the plot. In the books, Jon and/or Bran are the likely heroes against the Others and the Azor Azhai prophecy probably means something.
But the episode was good because the people who can act--Tyrion and Jon--were the focus.
Massie Williams was a cute kid but she is just awful as an adult trying to act. Sansa and Dany are OK in small doses.
But a lot of the minor players, most of whom can act, such as Ser Davos and Bronn and Samwell, were able to take take center stage at the end.
Also, Jon returning to the Night Watch was a twist that nobody saw coming.
But finally the show, as a viewer, was about the 8 years of life that you spent with family, friends and loved ones watching the show. It is bittersweet--like life itself--and I thought they did a good job capturing that with the three Starks all going to their own endings.
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In comment 14449432 BlackLight said:
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In comment 14449429 halfback20 said:
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Agree to disagree, i guess. I don't need every supernatural element explained, and that wasnt what i was talking about.
I listened to the Breaking Bad insider podcast and know that as they broke the season (sketched episode plots) they ALWAYS started with: where are the characters emotionally, and what do they want? Even if you disagree or it’s illogical, they gave you reasons. WW had chances to stop the meth game, but he turned back into it for ego and because he liked being so good at it, it stopped being financial. Each decision was earned by the character development to that point.
This is where GoT broke down, either in motivation, giving the audience enough time to justify big emotional turns, or not having characters just tell or show why they do things. We have to assume everything.
Dany feels rejected by Jon, but he never explains why he can’t return her feelings - is it the aunt thing? That his family hates her? She turns away and says “It’s fear then...” wouldn’t Jon say “wait, Dany, I do love you but understand my perspective...”
Or when the bells ring, she grimaces and just burns KL down. How about a quick flashback to the beheading of her friend and her friend saying “dracarys!” Or have her say something that lets us to know what’s in her head at that critical moment. In the finale Jon never asks her the obvious - why? She says (unasked) she “had to” as Cerce saw her mercy as weakness....but, that explains why burn the whole red keep despite the human shields, not the entire city. That’s a major turn for a character that protects the innocent. Very little explanation that makes sense is given, a couple of nonsensical lines. I get that she was supposed to feel alone, betrayed, maybe paranoid. But was she crazy? angry and out for blood? Her explanation doesn’t fully mesh with either.
Sansa declares the North independent, the other lands weren’t like, “wait, us too then!” No explanation.
Grey Worm just accepts that Jon who KILLED his queen, liberator, and friend of years will be sent North and Tyrion who betrayed her is the hand? No explanation. So the unsullied are like, oh well...(shrug)
The outcomes were mostly ok, but how they got to them was terribly rushed. Very little dialogue. The finale at least had some, like Tyrion’s speech to Jon about how they let Dany’s power grow. So I like the finale ok. But even the killing of Dany felt rushed and she says...nothing as she dies. Not even: why or you betrayed me again or anything? And the dragon burning the throne? That is an anthropomorphism of the dragon that was not earned by any prior action (not killing Jon, ...ok he’s a Targ, I get that)
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
I totally disagree with Bran being beyond such matters and him being king is inconsistent to his character. He wasn't going to go back to meld with the tree and just observe the world dispassionately. There is no more NK. There is no real wall now. There is no more Children of the forest. As the last greenseer Bran was the only one that made any sense to rule.
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Yes, that's the main reason why it was written. The most important element in how this story concludes is discovering how Dany responds when she is threatened by someone who is not clearly evil (like the slave masters).
The first act of the episode was almost entirely dedicated to exploring how flawed her mindset is, with the revelation of Jon being the true heir to the throne really being the initial trigger for all of her rage thereafter. Without that it may have been too late before everyone saw her true colors.
The second reason is that it allowed all of leaders of the great houses to more easily come to the consensus that Kings should no longer be given their title just because of their blood line. The choice became binary - either have some sort of "republic" where the King is chosen by the leaders, or go back to endless wars over who should be the King of the 7 kingdoms. The discovery of Jon's lineage and his reluctance to take the mantle is what ultimately got us to this point.
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
Fuck him.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
It doesn’t make sense to me either. In fact, even Tyrion stated to Jon the three things Dany did “and we rejoiced and followed her” for it. That event was one of the three.
People see what they want to see, so no big deal.
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In comment 14449267 Nitro said:
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Jon riding off to be with the Wildings was the best part of the show for me. Reunited with Thormund and Ghost was cool.
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Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Dude, don't ask questions.
Lol, that was pretty funny. I think someone said it last night....the show attempted to be a comedy after Dany’s death. In my opinion, it succeeded at that much better than as a drama. There were some pretty funny scenes including Drogon burning the throne and caring Dany away.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The last two seasons sucked. To finish this story without the book material was way above the writer's pay grade. They were not up to the task and this combined with their expressed lack of enthusiasm and desire to finish the show quick doomed the ending.
For example, the most iconic character is Tyrion, and his whole character died once the book material was out. The great writing from the books which gave birth to the TV Tyrion ran out and his character finished on empty. Same with Varys and Littlefinger.
If you are into the books they will never be finished. Give up on it. Game of Thrones the novel was written I think, in 1996. 1996! Think of your life then and all that has transpired. That was a loooong time ago. Resign yourself to the fact that the absurdity that was this season was the only ending to this story you will ever get.
All the fantasy elements the show writers showed no interest in writing. They invented the Night King and did not even have a story for him. These guys hit entertainment lotto and adapted the book material excellently. As that material ran out, these guys mailed it in and and the combination of incompetence and indifference gave us seasons 7 and 8.
As a final note, the abandonment of Jon Snow as a real character and the joke that was his part in this final season is the biggest crime.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Lol Gary. My wife immediately said this after it ended. She said I didn’t think there could be an ending worse than Dexter until today. I wasn’t a fan of the Dexter ending either, but it didn’t bother me THAT much, just somewhat.
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In comment 14449330 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 14449267 Nitro said:
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Jon riding off to be with the Wildings was the best part of the show for me. Reunited with Thormund and Ghost was cool.
Did he desert the NW?
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Bran wants to rule now? The same character they made a point of showing us turn into a cold, silent all seeing man is now the leader of Westeros? The dude who repeatedly said "i'm not bran anymore" is king? You could talk me into many characters ending up on the throne but he doesn't make the list.
you knew this was the final season, you knew they decided to quicken the pacing, and would not go into the same level of development as the book material did or even prior seasons of the show post book material.
the one quibble I have other than the one I first mentioned is why would Dany feel like the Kings Landing townspeople have sworn allegiance to Cersei? I didn't read about one person in any book or see one person in any show act even benevolently toward Cersei besides Qyburn, The Mountain, and Jaime. everyone else hated her.
but it's a minor quibble, they needed some reason to show Dany as destructive, bent on "liberating" those who didn't need or want her liberating.
this ending was nothing like Dexter. I also read most of the Dexter books and the last few seasons of Dexter was like it was written by an intern.
For people to stomp their feet and want a "do over" is either very comical or very sad, and probably both.
What's wrong with people?
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how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Yep I think 10 episodes in each of the last two seasons with similar endings would have alleviated many of the problems and complaints.
I'm guessing these are the endings that GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss five years ago. Bran as King is a dead give away. He's always been much better fleshed out in the books than in the show. Hell the show just got rid of him for an entire season and basically turned him into a meme the last two seasons. So it seems completely out of nowhere based on show plotting, but would make more sense in the books and is likely what George told them.
The whole dragon pit scene and ultimate resolution of King was clunky and a bit tough to understand. But the ending montage and opening leading to Dany's death salvaged the finale enough for me.
Still love this series, any issues from these last two seasons won't take away what the entire show meant to me.
What does that mean? He has the ability to warg into the dragon? If that's the case, he couldn't have done that before Euron was taking pot shots with arrows?
I also hated the line, "you were where you were supposed to be." So the whole time, he saw into the future and knew he was going to be king.
I didn't mind the last episode, but just seemed odd to me.
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In comment 14449430 81_Great_Dane said:
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
Seems stupid for that to be the only reason its mentioned.
Maybe the books will explain it better, but the show did a terrible job.
Ive been a fan of the story the entire way until the finale.
It is what it is, but I hated the ending.
They fast forwarded a "few weeks" to the council in the dragon pit, but maybe I missed how they knew that Jon killed her?
I think the part with Bran was lame...the rest of it I could have lived with if it was executed properly, but I dont feel it was.
All the goodbyes were ridiculous and many were unnecessary. "Do you have your needle?" Give me a fucking break.
this was shit at its finest. They had the chance to end it with a quality story in terms of the Wire or Six feet under. Instead it ended so flat.
TOOOO many questions and open ended areas.
this is why i wish the fucking Night King killed them all
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
I hope GRRM finishes the books.
One thing that bugged me with their incessant call backs to earlier seasons the past 2 years is that with all the reminiscing none of the Starks bring up Ned or Cat. Their deaths have been a couple years past now, but you'd think that being together for the first time in years it'd come up.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
2) Jon Snow can't marry due to his sentence, can he have another "wilding" red headed girlfriend?
Hi guys. Guess what. Daenerys got on her dragon and flew away. Just flew away.
She didn't say when she's be back but she said I'm totally in charge while she's gone.
1. Very wise
2. Killed a Whitewalker
3. Fiercely loyal
4. Instrumental in getting dragonglass
5. Surrounds himself with good people
6. Extremely compassionate
I will stop there. Had they gone there (to Sam), I certainly would have changed my 3 of 10 to probably a 6 of 10 IMDB rating. Bran the Broken was pretty bad imo.
But it was obvious to me....the finale was mostly about the STARK family, so Sam loses out there.
Hi guys. Guess what. Daenerys got on her dragon and flew away. Just flew away.
She didn't say when she's be back but she said I'm totally in charge while she's gone.
I wondered that as well. How did anyone know Jon drove a dagger into Daenerys?
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I mean, she's not there. Did he confess to her murder? I guess he did because he's a fucking moron.
Hi guys. Guess what. Daenerys got on her dragon and flew away. Just flew away.
She didn't say when she's be back but she said I'm totally in charge while she's gone.
I wondered that as well. How did anyone know Jon drove a dagger into Daenerys?
Jon is an honest guy carrying a lot of guilt as it was.....he would not deceive anyone. Besides, What would the audience think of his character had he done that? It was never the writers intention to cast Jon in a negative light. He has always been a favorite with the people.....that really would have had people in an uproar had they made him change like that so suddenly. Dany was bad enough don’t you think?
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
That "Bran played the game better" sounds like the line from "War Games" where the only way to win is not to play at all. Which he truly did not.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
+ 1
I think there were several purposes:
1. to introduce qyburn as the "mad scientist" doing shit that got him kicked out of the Citadel. And carrying this point past book material to the show if the first real introduction you had to Qbyurn was creating a rotating harpoon that could kill a dragon you might wonder who the F is this guy? IOW you might expect someone as resourceful as Qbyburn to come up with a plan to combat a dragon.
2. the Mountain provided to be a formidable and loyal body guard for Cersei
3. To keep The Hound's story and motivation alive. He lived for and was motivated by revenge vs his brother.
just a few off the top of my head.
2) Jon Snow can't marry due to his sentence, can he have another "wilding" red headed girlfriend?
Seeing as how Jon is not a member of the Night's Watch I think he can do whatever the fuck he wants. He's among the free folk now.
the sentence was a ruse.
It's not. Jon didn't want to be King.
He didn't want to be king. Robert's rebellion was about taking the throne in an act of revenge, Jon Snow was about saving the realm.
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Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
There's just logic problems all over the place. Almost everyone on the high council came from ingrained generational power. In fact, they reinforced that when they laughed at Sam's democracy suggestion. It's ludicrous to think that some or most of them did not have ruling ambitions of their own.
Unlike all the other lords, Bran had no standing. He had already rejected Winterfell. His "story" would sound ridiculous to nearly every other Lord. In fact, the 3-eyed raven part is grounded in religion; a religion that only the old time Northerners held to. All of the other Lords believed in the Seven. There was no reason on earth for them to agree to having Bran be king, even as a compromise candidate. In fact, as soon as Sansa took Winterfell out of the Westeros equation,Bran himself became a foreigner in Westeros. And we're talking about mainly Southerners here.
The logic of the Night's Watch continued existence has been discussed here, but there is another element that makes it illogical. That is, once Sansa made the North a different country, the Wall (and the people who guard it) are no longer part of Westeros. So, there was no legitimacy in the Westeros punishment from that perspective.
One nit, or question...what voting right did the Iron Islands have on the question of king? My recollection is that they were a conquered protectorate and not one of the 7 kingdoms. Theon was a hostage taken after an invasion (not rebellion) by the Iron Born.
Jaime killed the Mad King.
And a rant....why were there any Dothraki alive after the Battle of Winterfell? Seems like an awful lot of Unsullied survived as well. And why did Grey Worm not lop off Jon's head after finding out he killed Dany? He certainly had no qualms about killing anyone else who opposed Dany.
If it was my show I have Dany kill Jon after finding out his claim to the throne. Setting up a struggle between Sansa/Arya and Dany. It would have been more interesting. I would also have dived a little deeper into the whole White Walker/Night King story line. For such an overriding threat they really did a horrible job with that whole part of the show.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't think the story choices are what made me unhappy. It was the decision to ditch so much hard work with fantastic story telling that was formerly given to us. Building 7+ seasons of Winter to have that ending with the Night King and then to have Dany turn on a dime (this has been argued ad nauseam but I still think it was horribly done) to then wrap everything up like nothing really happened at all was beyond a let down.
I've got a group chat of 12 of us, all watch the show. No one liked it, and it consists of people who've defended it pretty hard over the years. Just felt like a giant waste of time in the end.
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All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
I think there were several purposes:
1. to introduce qyburn as the "mad scientist" doing shit that got him kicked out of the Citadel. And carrying this point past book material to the show if the first real introduction you had to Qbyurn was creating a rotating harpoon that could kill a dragon you might wonder who the F is this guy? IOW you might expect someone as resourceful as Qbyburn to come up with a plan to combat a dragon.
2. the Mountain provided to be a formidable and loyal body guard for Cersei
3. To keep The Hound's story and motivation alive. He lived for and was motivated by revenge vs his brother.
just a few off the top of my head.
1. Qyburn wasn't an important character. So putting resources into his story was a waste.
2. Cersei would have had a bodyguard had the Mountain stayed dead. It wasn't necessary to re-animate him for that simple purpose.
3. Why keep the Hound alive? What was left in his story?
I keep hearing that the poor showrunners were in an impossible situation because they had so much to resolve. The truth is, they should have been working on that the last two seasons by reducing the number of characters. The Mountain, Qyburn, and the Hound (as well as others) could have been gone and forgotten 10+ episodes ago. They didn't need to stick around until the very end.
Brutal.
Stannis probably would have been the best king, imo. I'm curious how his fate plays out in the books
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after killing the Mad King. Why is it a problem for Jon?
Jaime killed the Mad King.
and it wasn't a problem for him either, though it should be noted Ned Stark wanted Jaime to take the black and be sent to the wall for being a king slayer, but Tywin refused to allow it and Robert, sided with his wife/father-in-law over his hand and pardoned Jaime.
maybe semi-ironic in what comes full circle. Jaime kills the king is pushed to go to the wall, but his family stands up for him, Jon kills the queen, and get sent to the wall.
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I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't think the story choices are what made me unhappy. It was the decision to ditch so much hard work with fantastic story telling that was formerly given to us. Building 7+ seasons of Winter to have that ending with the Night King and then to have Dany turn on a dime (this has been argued ad nauseam but I still think it was horribly done) to then wrap everything up like nothing really happened at all was beyond a let down.
I've got a group chat of 12 of us, all watch the show. No one liked it, and it consists of people who've defended it pretty hard over the years. Just felt like a giant waste of time in the end.
But don't you think that meticulous story building going by the wayside is an effect of just not giving themselves enough time to end it properly? Yeah even though it was foreshadowed, Dany did turn on a dime. Normally that would play out over a full season, but that wasn't possible. The Long Night had to last one episode because there was no time to let it go beyond one episode.
It's just tough to do this show in 6 episode seasons. It requires a lot of leaps and gaps in logic. I left last night's finale feeling pretty good about it all things considered. I've been a bit surprised the reaction has been so one-sided against it.
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Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
I didn't have a problem with Bran, just the transition from Dannys death to the crowning of Bran. The confrontation with grey Worm was building for episodes, and then nothing but a dirty look at the very end? No payoff - Jon should have killed him mano a mano.
As for Jon riding off into the sunset, great ending but he should have faked his death and fled North to avoid ruling, which he never wanted. North of the wall was the only place he could be free. Banishing him there as punishment for saving the world just to make Grey Worm happy was silly.
Very ho hum way to finish thngs off.
It probably stemmed from the books. Qyburn is allowed to do all sorts of twisted experiments and decides to re-animate the mountain as Ser Robert Strong. While it appears he was gonna re-animate him anyway, his main purpose is to serve as Cersei's champion during the trial by combat. They dropped that in the show so they decided to use him for the improbable Clegane bowl
At least then the prophecy would have come true.
if you can't believe in a prophecy from fortune teller Maggy the Frog, what can you believe anymore?
This story was too intricate, too massive to devote such little time to in closing it out. I really just didn't enjoy the speedrun, i'm thoroughly unsatisfied with the ending.
Ohh Dany's dead? Ok cool, speed run to picking a new king and that's wrap! Awful.
Bran has been entirely useless the entire show. Worse yet, didn't he cause the war with the White Walkers by being touched? There's been no evidence he's useful, wise, thoughtful.
The Dany death scene sucked. Totally boring.
You hit on the major plot hole that trumps all the others IMO.
Upon finding out Jon killed Dany (however it was revealed), we're to believe the Unsullied and Dothraki agreed to chill out peacefully for a month or so until the lords of Westeros gathered to come up with a political solution to the power vacuum?
I thought Jon was going to hop on Drogon, which would somehow show Dany's armies that he was now the one to follow.
But that would have prevented the plot twist of Jon getting sent to the Night's Watch in the end - which was a reach too.
IMO a better result is Jon's ancestry is revealed, he claims power, secures peace, then abdicates the throne, allowing for Dany's oft-mentioned 'breaking the wheel'.
Then the lords of Westeros gather to decide how to elect a new ruler - no issue with choosing Bran at that point.
Then Jon could have traveled North of the wall by his own choice at the end, not bc he'd been banished there.
Link - ( New Window )
The finale could have been 4 episodes itself...
1 Episode: Dany's death / Jon's surrender / Sansa arrives
2 Episode: Formation of the council / negotiations / Bran
3 Episode: Negotiations: dothraki/unsullied exits, snow plea
4 Episode: Kings council discussion, Sansa, Jon, Arya, Tarley, Bron in their new settings
The only concept that really bugged me was that there should have been a ceremonial pact obligating each of the houses to the king succession plans.
I didn't care for Twilight
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
Agree with this post completely. Reducing the number of episodes was the start of their writing mistakes, and I think the second mistake was further complicating things for themselves by intermingling the 2 big events into 6 episodes. Hard to resolve 2 long running plotlines driven towards the biggest battles in show history within 3 episodes of each other (especially when they also occur on 2 sides of the continent).
Yes we knew these were abbreviated seasons going in - but we obviously didn't know exactly how they were planning to pace the story. It could have just been that there wasn't enough material for full seasons. Turns out there was probably a lot more to conclude than typical 10 episode seasons (at least in s8) and the rushed timeframe impacted the writing substantially.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
The start of S7 reset everything on the equivalent of a blank page and everything that played out from that point felt more to serve the purpose of ending the show as quickly as possible vs. establishing deeper motivations. Character decisions/endings felt more like justifications than natural conclusions. S7 baked in some plot events that were illogical (expedition North, Tyrion trusting Cersei) and then S8 leveraged those events as key story aspects for what came after.
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And I'm still pissed. It honestly felt like they tailor made the whole episode to appease the same demographic that watches Twilight.
I didn't care for Twilight
Last I checked you weren't a teenage girl
Were seasons 7 and 8 the same quality as the previous seasons? No. Am I still happy I got to see them? F*** yes.
There are some very valid criticisms on here and some that miss the mark. For example, someone offered the last season of the Wire as an example of a good last season of television. That does not make sense to me.
This ending is GRRM's ending, more or less. If you don't like the pacing, writing, etc., that's on the showrunners. If you don't like the substance of the ending, take it up with George.
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In comment 14449676 Anakim said:
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And I'm still pissed. It honestly felt like they tailor made the whole episode to appease the same demographic that watches Twilight.
I didn't care for Twilight
Last I checked you weren't a teenage girl
Well I liked the episode enough. So I don't follow your logic
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
At least then the prophecy would have come true.
if you can't believe in a prophecy from fortune teller Maggy the Frog, what can you believe anymore?
Book prophecy not show prophecy
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In comment 14449679 Kyle in NY said:
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In comment 14449676 Anakim said:
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And I'm still pissed. It honestly felt like they tailor made the whole episode to appease the same demographic that watches Twilight.
I didn't care for Twilight
Last I checked you weren't a teenage girl
Well I liked the episode enough. So I don't follow your logic
Read what I wrote again
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
Were seasons 7 and 8 the same quality as the previous seasons? No. Am I still happy I got to see them? F*** yes.
There are some very valid criticisms on here and some that miss the mark. For example, someone offered the last season of the Wire as an example of a good last season of television. That does not make sense to me.
This ending is GRRM's ending, more or less. If you don't like the pacing, writing, etc., that's on the showrunners. If you don't like the substance of the ending, take it up with George.
That's all fair and I agree, though I do think the last season of the wire was closer to the first 4 than this was. I also thought the Wire did a better job wrapping everything up in the finale montage as we saw how so many characters had come full circle and informed how they'd become what they were in S1 in the first place.
To your last point I agree that this is probably very close to GRRM's ending and a lot of it has parallels to the way LOTR ended, which he'd always alluded to admiring. The end points for many of the characters were ok, just unsatisfying in how they got there due to the rushed writing. We are left filling in the blanks ourselves to get to make sense of some of the bigger decisions they made (the past 3 episodes especially). Why did the NK care about Bran so much? Why didn't Dany fly straight to kill Cersei - who had literally lied/betrayed her more than any other character? Why did everyone just accept Bran as the new king and the North as its' own kingdom? Would Yara especially have done the same? And probably whoever that guy from Dorne was too.
I liked the show. No complaints.
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
Agreed I'm in the same exact place. There were things I liked about this season and in particular I thought the 2 action episodes were as good or better than anything I've seen in a movie the last decade. The fact that the show runners took an extra year between s7 and s8, and explicitly chose to do less episodes is just salt in fresh wounds of seeing the rapid degradation of a story that many of us have followed for over a decade and also happens to be probably the last major network TV show.
Second this. Even with the leaks, I thought the story was plausible. The camera work, in some scenes, was spectacular.
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
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I just came to accept the show for what it was over the past two seasons. It was changed, but ultimately still entertaining to watch. An incredible spectacle, effects and direction we may never see on television ever again. Along with tremendous acting
I really can't argue anybody's objections. The plotting and storytelling was not on par with the first six seasons. I'm not sure how it could have been in such a compressed time period. If that was too much to overcome for some viewers, believe me I completely understand that. I tried to still appreciate what I could. I'll be interested to see how history ends up viewing it once its rewatched down the line.
Agreed I'm in the same exact place. There were things I liked about this season and in particular I thought the 2 action episodes were as good or better than anything I've seen in a movie the last decade. The fact that the show runners took an extra year between s7 and s8, and explicitly chose to do less episodes is just salt in fresh wounds of seeing the rapid degradation of a story that many of us have followed for over a decade and also happens to be probably the last major network TV show.
It's very easy for me to say sitting on my couch, you watch these inside the episode features and the work, time, and dedication that has to go into producing these episodes is truly incredible. I can understand how maybe some fatigue would set in and they wanted to wrap it up. But it's always be tough for me to accept, and I'll wonder what could have been if they just committed to two more full seasons.
It's very easy for me to say sitting on my couch, you watch these inside the episode features and the work, time, and dedication that has to go into producing these episodes is truly incredible. I can understand how maybe some fatigue would set in and they wanted to wrap it up. But it's always be tough for me to accept, and I'll wonder what could have been if they just committed to two more full seasons.
Exactly. Especially since fans were pretty understanding with the extra time in between seasons and the complicated battles that took forever to shoot were done great. It was literally just extra writing/talking/character moments that probably could have even saved the exact same general plot. Though I do think they made some plot mistakes too that made their version of the story a more difficult sell than it needed to be. Reverse engineering doesn't always result in the exact result you're looking for.
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is kill Grey Worm.
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
yes, in the end he got what he wanted, but he seemed melancholy - at least having the decision made for him - or who knows how he really felt he always seemed melancholy. but by save him I meant from any "punishment" at all.
Bran gets the crown.
Jon Snow gets sent up north.
Sansa is Queen of the North.
Arya becomes a nomad.
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
- Why didn't Drogon kill Jon?
- Why didn't the Unsullied or Dothraki kill Jon?
- How did people even find out Dany was dead?
I suppose Jon gave himself up and told them what he did? And we're supposed to believe he wouldn't have been executed for that... That they would imprison him? I'm not someone that demands the story go a certain way, but this felt like massively important shit. I would rather have had those questions answered than to see the cheesy scenes that comprised the second half of the episode.
Their error, IMO, was the need to wrap up characters that didn't need wrapping up. The whole second half would have been better had it focused solely on Jon after he killed Dany.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
Frankly. it's the only place Jon found happiness (with Ygritte). It's where Jon belongs.
As for Arya, outside of her family she has no human relationships. She's broken and a true lone wolf.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
It's Jon, so he's both honorable enough and stupid enough to fess up.
Not sure how the Unsullied guarding the Queen, presumably right outside the throne room, wouldn't have come in to investigate while Drogon was destroying things...
For long epic stories like this, the ending is always difficult to be rewarding and satisfying.
If you focus on the journey, and not the destination you will be less pissed off.
We were told the last book was done how many times? Guy has lied out of his ass for going on 20 years about time lines and stuff about not all this. The one thing I do believe is that he writes stuff and then rips it up and starts over.
I was never emotionally invested In The TV series as an avid book reader. They made more than enough dumb choices once the years but people loved the character so they go away w most. And as its men mentioned over an over it’s obvious once the road map
Of source material was gone it and to shit. Martin cant even
Finish the last book but he can guide them
When he Can’t guide himself.
You can’t please Everyone but only the desperate fans want to shine the turd this season was. And if they want to like it fine w me. I’m just waiting formMartin and Patrick Rothfuss to write a series together. That would be great. Four score and 7 years ago we wrote a book
The only thing better would have been for Seigfried, Jon, to take his own life with her...
Bran gets the crown.
Jon Snow gets sent up north.
Sansa is Queen of the North.
Arya becomes a nomad.
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is Sansa easily getting independence. They used to all be separate realms and they have all been ravaged yet only the north gets independence
I thought this "shot" (not a "shot," per se, since it's CGI) was one of the coolest visuals I've seen in any show, ever.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
As for the Dragons, they are meant to be very intelligent. Not to mention magical creatures, him burning the throne was a little much IMO but I believe Drogon was intelligent enough to recognize what destroyed his brothers and mother. To be honest I was expecting Dany to be paranoid and order Drogon to kill Jon right in front of the throne (ala the mad king burning people in the throne rooml, Drogon refusing (due to him being of dragons blood) and flying away as Jon approaches her and slays her with Longclaw to the heart.
Whatever
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
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Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I think the Bran scheming thing is 1 of the most interesting unexplored aspects of this resolution. It certainly gives potential justification for why the NK may have viewed him as a high value target (assuming he and Bran shared a similar ability to see into the future). Also gives a lot more incentive in terms of why Bran was so hush hush about anything that happened. His character really got back burner treatment since going back to WF and maybe on a rewatch there will be moments we glossed over that take on a greater importance, but I think it's likely they should have just given him more moments.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Part of the problem was that for as much as the criticism leveled at D&D, GRRM didn't make things easy, either. He had some final plots in mind, but he has no idea how to get from where he left off the books to his finale because he planted so many seeds and his garden keeps growing.
Generally, I think a lot of the criticism at the way the show came to an end has more to do with the near-impossible task of perfectly landing this plane. The scope of the Game of Thrones universe is unlike any TV show ever, save Lost perhaps; and Lost was another show that caught a lot of criticism for how it tried to wrap things up.
I do think the writing was better in earlier seasons, but I also enjoyed earlier seasons more because there were more plot lines and more possibilities. There were more factions, more scheming, and more possibilities for how the show could go because it was merely telling a story with no need to try and end it.
Once the show got into finale mode, they had to slowly funnel all of the plotlines into a singular ending. As that happens, character arcs end and the story focuses on fewer and fewer characters, and so there is less possibility for the fate of the show and I think that just naturally makes it less exciting.
It reminds me of the NCAA tournament. The first four days are always the best part (unless you have a team still alive) because there is so much chaos, so many more storylines, and so many more things to focus your attention on. It goes from 48 games in the first four days, to just 12 games in the four days a week later. And then down to 3 games the following week. Sure, the stakes are higher, but there is less stimulation.
For me, my three favorite characters were always Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys and I always cared about them more than the mains like Jon and Dany. I loved the scheming and I particularly loved when all three were in different places infecting three separate storyboards. But as the show started to wrap up, Littlefinger was killed, and Tyrion and Varys were both handcuffed a bit in that they attached to Dany's quest and had to stick with her logistically. In that regard, the latter part of the series was always going to be less appealing to me, plot-wise.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Agreed - i think there's a long list of characters who this could be said of in this final season (and interactions among them). Tyrion + Bran, Davos, Jon, Varys, Sansa, Sam, off the top of my head. All of them got little bits and pieces but all of them got short shrift IMO.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
At this point, that would have been great. He should wheeled out of the small council and pulled a usual suspects ending. Winter came, bitch
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
My takeaway from it was that Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven before him) were smarter or savvier than they let on. Perhaps a bit of a Verbal Kint / Keyser Soze situation. I'm not sure how much they knew, but I think Bran/3ER was participating in the game of thrones just like all the others. And they were making moves along the way. I'm looking forward to re-watching scenes with Bran and how he interacted with various characters over the last few seasons.
As for Sam, I don't think the suggestion of a democracy was meant to be a swipe at the current situation. I think it was meant to show that the realm was making incremental progress towards a better way of governance (no longer monarchy by birthright), but that they weren't anywhere near progressive enough to cede all of their power to just the will of the people. That would have been too radical.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
I had the same thought. Like GRRM may have told them Bran ended up on the throne, but the details were left to D&D. IF that's the case, I imagine GRRM goes into a lot more detail developing Bran's character along the way (assuming the books are ever written).
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I thought that too, but that type of reaction (laughing at the suggestion) is likely what would've happened in the real world. Even after the US revolted against the King's tyranny, they put in place the electoral college...
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Jon/Tyrion had relevance to the rest of Westeros, especially the remaining Starks.
With Dany dead, you had Grey Worm and a legion of rule-following Unsullied and remaining barbaric Dothraki in Kings Landing without a purpose. King's Landing meant nothing to the Dothraki so I could see them wanting to be in the plains roaming around on horseback or whatever it is they do.
But what are the Unsullied to do. It was almost as if Grey Worm needed direction-- or needed a challenge from the other Lords so that he had a position to take.
All Grey Worm knew of the world was following orders, killing people, and that he fell in love with Missandei of Narth wanted to go there after the war.
If he kills Jon/Tyrion, then what? Stay in destroyed Kings Landing? For what? Why would he want to rebuild a city? Fight the Northmen just to fight a war? For what?
Keeping Jon/Tyrion alive obviously serves as a plot convenience to bring everyone together and to keep Jon and Tyrion alive, but it also give Grey Worm his own purpose for what to do in the immediate aftermath of Dany's death.
I know some people need to go to a safe space to hear it, but Dany was probably in her heart well meaning, but in her head and blood she was ruthless and likely driven insane - mainly due to genetics because she born a child of incest.
People who doubt this should read the backstory about King Aerys and (and prior Targaryen rulers) and how great his rule started but how little things would set him off into silent rages of jealousy. Mostly narcissistic things that were similarly obvious with Daenerys.
Once she learned Jon had a better claim to the throne than she did and once she saw the love, warmth, embracing, deifying that he received in Westeros, it began eating away at her and she knew she would never be loved.
Now we know Bran knew the outcome this would lead to and when Jon says "tell them" to Sansa and Arya he didn't object. Bran used Jon. Maybe even Sam.
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
For long epic stories like this, the ending is always difficult to be rewarding and satisfying.
If you focus on the journey, and not the destination you will be less pissed off.
But the journey itself was unsatisfying. The palace intrigue and tension hasn't been the same since the series went beyond the books.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
That's not the same thing. It wasn't absurd for the dragons to remain docile when they didn't sense a threat from Tyrion. It was definitely a tense, suspenseful scene, because they certainly could have incinerated him. But the fact that they didn't does not mean that they were engaging in symbolic reasoning. Otherwise, we could say the same thing about wild animals in our own world who choose not to attack in given situations.
But to look at an iron chair and conclude, "That's a symbol of the reckless ambition that truly killed my mother!" and then incinerate the symbol is a ridiculous thing to have a dragon in this story's universe do.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
Excellent points.
Cersei's actions in Winds of Winter are analogous to Dany's in The Bells, albeit on a smaller level. However, like you said, there were seasons of buildup to these actions on Cersei's part that made them neither a surprise nor out of character. Despite the writers' and some viewers' efforts to align Dany's actions in The Bells with things like the burning of Astapor's masters or the Tarlys, these things aren't in the same ballpark or even the same damn sport. There was no buildup to Dany's actions. That's just bad writing. While Dany was a multi-faceted character capable of good and bad deeds, she wasn't a murderer of innocent women and children. Don't have a character be something for 71 episodes, then something else for eps 72 and 73.
How do they even know Jon killed Dany? Why show that scene that isn't something the people would like to see! They cut away from so many moments to leave you wanting to know like when Bran told Sansa and Arya about Jon. So what he admitted it to Greyworm and Greyworm was like ok let me lock you up after I am just killing people in the street I am not going to try and kill you.
Power hungry Sansa and the north won't even bow down to the a Stark king? Really everyone is cool with that? Sure fine the North won't want a Stark king of course not they want a Stark Queen instead. I mean come on that is stupid. I could see that if they made like Gendry King, but they put a northmen on throne.
Jon went from the most important part of the whole start of Fire and Ice to basically a nothing the whole show in the end. He didn't do much in the battle, let Greyworm just kill those men who gave up, and killed Dany and then went and sat down in a jail cell before being banished north. This is so dumb. They just ruined characters in this show as soon as they passed the source materials. Think about it Dany turns into Mad Queen and brutal while not listening to anyone, Jon is useless and banished away, Bran who barely even talks for how many seasons is not the 3ER and King, Tyrion they turned into the stupidest man alive getting out smarted and fulled by everyone, Arya becomes a faceless men to take out the Freys, I mean I could go on and on with this crap.
Ruined the whole show and if this is how the books are I won't even read them if they ever come out. Actually if I am GRRM I am happy that HBO blew the ending so bad because he books would have to be 10 times better.
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
lol
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Cite your sources.
link - ( New Window )
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Tyrion: You don’t want to be lord of Winterfell?
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Cite your sources. link - ( New Window )
LOL
Bran isn't a Stark?
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
The only prediction I got right was houses, lineages, claims to the thrones, etc wouldn't matter much in the end. Didn't know how it would go down but it looked obvious that squabbling over who's got the most Targaryen or Baratheon, or whoevers blood would be relatively pointless.
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
Imagine if Twitter existed and had hundreds of millions of users when Mash, or The Sopranos, or any other major show was wrapping up and commenting in real time for every episode.
Also, those shows had much smaller universes to deal with and are really bout a main character or small group of characters in a localized setting.
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In comment 14449868 Amtoft said:
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Agreed - this and the poorly written Dany turn are my 2 core plot complaints this final season.
Also re: your last post about the poor Dany turn, I thought this episode made it seem even sillier since they seemed to write her to be completely delusional about what happened/what she did. After last week those defending it as within her character had a variety of reasons for doing so - "she's always been ruthless", "she was jealous of jon", "she went mad", and it clearly seems like they predominantly went through door #3. But they wrote her so heavy handed mad this past episode thinking that those in KL were intentionally allied with Cersei. Literally the episode prior to the battle of KL they had conversations about how Cersei was doing that intentionally at the expense of her people and a couple episodes she's completely delusional believing that the people of KL chose Cersei.
He warged into the ravens. As soon as he warged, it cut to the ravens flying north to The Night King. He was getting TNK's attention (since he is marked) to draw him to the weirwood such that Arya could kill him.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
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being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
Why did the Night King expose himself to personally go after Bran?
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
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In comment 14449873 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
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being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
Why did the Night King expose himself to personally go after Bran?
Because he's a pervert?
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
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In comment 14449884 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 14449868 Amtoft said:
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
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In comment 14449868 Amtoft said:
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
By his own statements. He isn't anything anymore.
Oh except King... sure he will take that. So stupid.
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Agreed. And when Dany learned of Jon's lineage which made him the rightful heir to the throne, what did she do? Did she offer to step aside and throw her support to Jon since he was the rightful heir to the throne that belonged to her family? No, she begged him to lie and to keep it a secret because it could get in the way of her taking the throne-- a throne that she has no rightful claim to.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
It might just be a book thing but it is probably a movie thing too. But Dany's core is not just power acquisition although that's how i manifested. At her core was the legitimacy question. The Barathions and Starks stole her birthright. She was the *legitimate* ruler and the Robert was a usurper. In fact, she was perfectly okay (initially) that Viserys was the real entitled ruler. So much so that she grudgingly married Khal Drogo. Yes, she became more and more obsessed with acquisition but it was always to make it back to KL to assume what was rightfully hers. That's what has always made my uncomfortable with her reaction to Jon. Her intrinsic value system *should* have made her step aside because the very same issue which caused her to become who she was, was trumped by Jon's birthright.
I think she was becoming more and more radicalized by her own message; the obsession and the quest itself kept building and building, and as she did things like walk through the fire and turn stones into dragon eggs, she was not just going to be Queen because of birthright, but because of destiny. The birthright legitimized and validated her question. And so when Jon's truth was revealed, I think her belief in her destiny was the winning emotion.
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
I think the argument (which isn't remotely supported by the show, IMO) is that Bran's ultimate goal the entire time was to be King and that the entire time he's been taking steps to position himself for that role. His seeming lack of desire to be Lord of Winterfell made it more likely that everyone else would support his "nomination" as King.
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
If it's a superhero movie, then it's like Avengers: Endgame being the first movie instead of the finale. The "existential threat" lasted one battle. Afterwards, major parts of the superheros were then felled by Euron Greyjoy. Does that mean he was bigger than an existential threat?
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In comment 14449891 Amtoft said:
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In comment 14449884 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 14449868 Amtoft said:
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Really you are saying he lied about wanting to be Lord of Winterfell ruler of the north who they kept making Kings and Queens up there for his self interest? Come on now.
I never said he lied about not wanting to be Lord of Winterfell. Plus, being King and being Lord of Winterfell are two completely different outcomes.
For a bit now, there is a thought on Bran that he was full of knowledge of all history with some understanding of being a seer and that he remained passive in several instances so as to not affect how other people acted so as to not mess up their timeline and change what would otherwise happen.
What the finale may suggest is that it may not have been Bran being in a dispassionate existence which would ultimately lead to an outcome where he ended up the King. Instead, it's also possible that perhaps Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven) may have overtly acted in furtherance of ending up with him on the iron throne. That it was all part of a much larger, and longer end game.
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Didn't need to be mentioned because it was no longer germane. The whole course of the show from the 1st Episode illustrated just how destructive the "Game" was and why it need a push toward a different system.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
Quote:
He was an existential threat, and it took the version of a superhero movie where everyone used their powers to stop him. It took the largest army ever assembled, two dragons, Sam's knowledge of how white walkers can be killed, Gendry's weapon-making, the Lord of Light's ability to turn all the swords into fire and to light the trenches, Bran warging into the ravens to find The Night King and be the homing device to the weirwood so that the trained assassin, Arya Stark, could deliver the final blow to kill The Night King and the entire army.
It was a nonstop battle for 80 minutes.
If it's a superhero movie, then it's like Avengers: Endgame being the first movie instead of the finale. The "existential threat" lasted one battle. Afterwards, major parts of the superheros were then felled by Euron Greyjoy. Does that mean he was bigger than an existential threat?
Thethreat of The Night King and the White Walkers have existed since the first scene of the entire series. It's not as if there haven't been dramatic interactions with TNK and white walkers all through the series.
Ending the series with the battle against the dead would have been terrible because the show wasn't ultimately about that. It was always about the problems of man and the competing factions within them as they all destroyed each other vying for power. The Night King was an existential threat in the sense that it was the most dangerous possible threat and something that was a threat to all of man and yet, despite that, some factions were so consumed with power that they ignored the threat and decided not to face it.
The ones that did face it were able to destroy it (due to a superheroic effort) and when you save the world, the world keeps spinning and so there is an aftermath.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
Actually, he did say that.
"I can never be Lord of Winterfell, I can never be lord of anything. I'm the Three-Eyed Raven."
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
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Gets sent to the wall, Bran is King, Arya splits.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
It's not unprecedented for a showrunner (even a co-creator) to leave a series before it ends. One of the most prominent examples, of course, is Larry David leaving Seinfeld. But there have been others.
If it meant resolving the series properly, they should have done it, even if it delayed production. The fans waited almost two years for the final six episodes anyway.
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
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In comment 14448867 Joey in VA said:
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Gets sent to the wall, Bran is King, Arya splits.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
Can't give him credit, he didn't say Sansa was going to be the Queen of the North.
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Gets sent to the wall, Bran is King, Arya splits.
Joey is the BBI - 3 eyed raven -
Who is going to win the NFC East this year Raven?
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
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In comment 14449958 NYG27 said:
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In comment 14448867 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Gets sent to the wall, Bran is King, Arya splits.
I'm surprised this post above is not getting more attention on BBI. Joey spoils the main plots for the series final episode almost 6 hours before it airs.
LOL....that's LeSean McCoy level trolling right there!
We should applaud Joey and tell him he is the man for his great foresight.
Can't give him credit, he didn't say Sansa was going to be the Queen of the North.
I think we know that was always a given. He also didn’t say Dany would be offed because everyone knew that was a given too. No, Joey gave us all the non-givens, that required one of profound intellect with great analytical abilities.
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In comment 14449823 BMac said:
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Didn't need to be mentioned because it was no longer germane. The whole course of the show from the 1st Episode illustrated just how destructive the "Game" was and why it need a push toward a different system.
But that's from a viewer's perspective. The people actually *in* the story don't realize any of that. They've got millennia that says, no matter if it's bloody, this is the way to go. Their actions act with enlightenment for which there is no real foundation.
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
The article explains it far better than I could.
Link - ( New Window )
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but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
The article explains it far better than I could. Link - ( New Window )
It was a good article. I still prefer my own variant which is that they went from a writer of books (with the object being creative and making novel (NPI) art) to writers of tv (with the object of making fans/viewers feel a certain way and using time-tested tropes).
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In comment 14449982 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
Seven kingdoms were not enough, she wanted the whole world
It was a good article. I still prefer my own variant which is that they went from a writer of books (with the object being creative and making novel (NPI) art) to writers of tv (with the object of making fans/viewers feel a certain way and using time-tested tropes).
That's essentially what they're saying, though I'd go as far as to say even among book writers, GRRM's ability to "transform" characters from good to evil or to make you feel sympathy for evil characters (e.g. Cersei's walk of shame) is exceptional. Lots of books are a lot more black and white than ASOIAF.
D&D (and in a more general regard, Hollywood) use a more psychological style which is somewhat viewed as everything is black & white or good vs evil. It's far more character centric approach.
The article explains it far better than I could. Link - ( New Window )
Thank you for posting that - I think there's a lot of truth in it. I immediately thought of the wire having been a similarly sociologically driven story and how they changed a huge chunk of the main cast every season but the story stuck together vs. just turning the show into cops vs. bad guys.
Here are a couple choice paragraphs of the interesting read
The problem is that the writing has changed, and it's changed in a way that breaks important rules the show had previously set for itself. I think I know why.
It all comes down to how stories are crafted, and for that, we need to start with two different types of writers: plotters and pantsers. Plotters create a detailed outline before they commit a word to the page. Pantsers prefer to discover the story as they write it—flying by the seat of their pants, so to speak. Both approaches have their advantages. Since plotters know the story in advance, it's easier to create tight narratives with satisfying conclusions. But that amount of predestination can sometimes make characters feel like cogs in service of the story. Pantsers have an easier time writing characters that live and breathe. They generate the plot by dropping a person with desires and needs into a dramatic situation and documenting the results. But with the characters in charge, pantsers risk a meandering or poorly paced structure, and they can struggle to tie everything together.
After the first major plot arc resolved in the third book, A Storm of Swords (seasons 3 and 4), Martin planned to skip the story ahead five years. But he couldn't make the gap in action feel true to the characters or the world, so he eventually decided to write his way through those five years instead. Knowing the bridging material wasn't ever going to be as gripping as the central conflicts, he compensated by planting more seeds in more corners of his already complex world. And once he had them, he couldn't prune them back without their resolutions feeling abrupt or forced. Worse, some of his idle characters were taking the opportunity to grow in the wrong directions, pulling away from the ending he had in mind for them. Soon, the garden was overgrown, the projected length of the series kept expanding, and the books stopped coming.
For the next couple seasons, showrunners David Benioff and D. B. Weiss tried to take over management of Martin's sprawling garden, simplifying and combining character arcs with mixed results. Then, with the start of season 7, they shifted their focus from telling the unfolding story of an entire world to concluding a particular tale set within it. They gave themselves a fixed endpoint—13 episodes to the finale, and no more.
In so doing, the showrunners moved as far to one end of the plotter/pantser continuum as Martin is to the other. They weren't trying to resolve every character arc or pay off every last bit of world-building. They knew the destination Martin had in mind, they understood the dots they had to connect to get there, and they wanted to maximize fan entertainment along the way. Then, presumably, they asked themselves questions. What big set pieces did they want to deliver? What surprises could rival the greatest twists of the show? Which of the remaining conflicts would yield the best drama, and which onscreen pairings would bring the most emotion? What did they think we, the audience, wanted to finally see before it was all over? It was a Game of Thrones bucket list. And once they had that list, they needed to maneuver the characters into place.
https://www.wired.com/story/game-of-thrones-plotters-vs-pantsers/ - ( New Window )
Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
That's only "clear" because they never revealed anything about Bran's character/motivation. Maybe one of the spinoffs will (somehow)?
As for Drogon, I'd guess Bran's concerned because if someone managed to control Drogon, it would make them extremely powerful. But that's just a guess since we know nothing about Bran...
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In comment 14449982 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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but it still fits. "I can't be the Lord of Winterfell because I'm going to be King of Westeros"
We are assuming that he was the only completely honest character because he is the Three Eyed-Raven, whatever that means-- as if he's some sort of mindless robot.
Why couldn't he be saying what he needed to say to influence everyone else in the game of thrones?
The bending over backwards to make sense of Bran is hilarious to me today. All of these theories go against the entire character of Bran for 7 seasons and 5 episodes. But the audience is supposed to somehow export this grand scheme of Bran's to become king.
Laughable.
You say it was against Bran's nature. What was Bran's nature? The show starts with him as a boy wanting to be a knight, getting crippled, and then becoming a mystical being who can see the past, present, and future.
It's not bending over backwards. Bran knew things and saw things with supernatural ability. The question I have is whether he knew he would end up on the throne and just existed for it to happen, or if he wanted it to happen and acted the way he did in furtherance of it. It's also possible that by he, I mean the Three Eyed Raven. I wish they spent more time explaining Bran being the Three Eyed Raven, and whether the Three Eyed Raven has its own agenda.
All we know is that the Three Eyed Raven was a human who lived among the Children of the Forest, the original rulers of Westeros and creators of The Night King to defend themselves from the First Men.
I'm actually unsure of how to answer this because the writers have done such a horrifyingly bad job of developing Bran's character. It's actually worse to me now that we know he ends up as King.
But are we supposed to believe that Bran knew that Dany would murder a million people but it was part of his scheme to become King?
Idk, I'm finding it hard to put into words, but overall I'm just so confused as to how all the Bran pieces led here. It makes no sense to me.
My buddy brought this up and it makes sense. He thinks that The Lord of Light/Three Eyed Raven are connected somehow and that ill be the link in the books that the show did not have. Who knows.
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Yet, we have no indication that he wanted to rule anything or that he had any ability to do so before he became king. And, after he became king the only thing we know is that at the first opportunity he took a side project (looking for Drogon) that was at best incidental to ruling Westeros and absented himself from further discussion on the actual kingdom. If he had planned this from the getgo, I would have expected more ambition or at least more engagement. I mean, it's pretty clear that Tyrion will be the de facto king and winner on GoT.
That's only "clear" because they never revealed anything about Bran's character/motivation. Maybe one of the spinoffs will (somehow)?
As for Drogon, I'd guess Bran's concerned because if someone managed to control Drogon, it would make them extremely powerful. But that's just a guess since we know nothing about Bran...
I think it would make sense that going forward, Kings Landing / the Realm would want to keep tabs on it.
Also, Bran forcing Tyrion to fix everything he broke and rebuild the city has a nice "Bran the Rebuilder" ring to it.
I'm actually unsure of how to answer this because the writers have done such a horrifyingly bad job of developing Bran's character. It's actually worse to me now that we know he ends up as King.
But are we supposed to believe that Bran knew that Dany would murder a million people but it was part of his scheme to become King?
Idk, I'm finding it hard to put into words, but overall I'm just so confused as to how all the Bran pieces led here. It makes no sense to me.
My buddy brought this up and it makes sense. He thinks that The Lord of Light/Three Eyed Raven are connected somehow and that ill be the link in the books that the show did not have. Who knows.
In the writers' defense, GRRM doesn't seem to know how to land this plane or connect the dots, either. I mean, it's a 7 book series and books 1-5 were published in 1996, 1998, 2000, 2005, 2011.
I only read the first book, but who knows what GRRM told D&D about Bran.
Had there been no show i'm guessing the books would have been done by now.
Link - ( New Window )
Likely of combination of factors contributing to the delays in the final 2 books, the biggest being (IMO) trying to satisfactorily wind down all of the threads he's developed in the first 5 books. Keep in mind their are even more threads in the books then the show (e.g. Lady Stoneheart, the other Targaryen, (unbutchered) Dorne, more in-depth Greyjoy storyline, etc).
The one thing I guessed correctly though was brienne would finish jaime’s page. Kinda funny how quick that was shot down lol
2. Tyrion being hand is extremely fitting. He was always great at it and cares about the people rather than just power. He definitely made mistakes the last two seasons, but clearly emotion played a role in that because he was dealing with his family. The scene where he finds Jamie and Cersei dead was one of the best scenes in the episode.
3. Having Jon be sent to the wall was the only way to avoid another war. Clearly they never intended on him actually serving in the Watch, if there even is one at this point. He gets to live out his days north of the wall where he was happiest in his life with Igritte.
Was it perfect? Of course not. It is basically impossible to end of a show of this magnitude and popularity with everyone being pleased. They definitely should have done two 10 episode seasons for 7 and 8 rather than just the 13, and even though it was bittersweet, I was generally satisfied with the conclusion.
Three straight weeks of a fuck-up. Fuckin' A
2. Tyrion being hand is extremely fitting. He was always great at it and cares about the people rather than just power. He definitely made mistakes the last two seasons, but clearly emotion played a role in that because he was dealing with his family. The scene where he finds Jamie and Cersei dead was one of the best scenes in the episode.
3. Having Jon be sent to the wall was the only way to avoid another war. Clearly they never intended on him actually serving in the Watch, if there even is one at this point. He gets to live out his days north of the wall where he was happiest in his life with Igritte.
Was it perfect? Of course not. It is basically impossible to end of a show of this magnitude and popularity with everyone being pleased. They definitely should have done two 10 episode seasons for 7 and 8 rather than just the 13, and even though it was bittersweet, I was generally satisfied with the conclusion.
Other than being rushed I enjoyed the season much easier than bitching about something I can’t change anyways but I would of preferred an ending that bran shows he has the makings to be the evil mastermind especially after the why do you think i came this far comment. It was there but they went with the birth of democracy ending which makes sense in the future evolution of society.
Also peter Dinklage was awesome as usual I do hope he gets another Emmy
I believe martin said he told them the major points about the ending about 6 years ago. What that entails besides Dany burns KL and Jon kills her is anyone's guess.
I guess it's not uncommon in history to have showrunners/creators get sick of their projects midstream (Sorkin West Wing, Milch, etc) - just sucks for all involved I suppose.
"HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season," Benioff said. "We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends."
And then there’s George RR Martin, who has always thought the show was cutting too much from the books. A long time ago he said the 10 episode seasons should be more like 13, and more recently he’s said that the show could continue well, well beyond eight seasons. Here’s him at the Emmys last year:
"I don't know," Martin said. "Ask David [Benioff] and Dan [Weiss] when they come through. We could have gone to 11, 12, 13 seasons, but I guess they wanted a life.”
It Is Now Clear Having Two Short ‘Game Of Thrones’ Final Seasons Was A Mistake - ( New Window )
That was all based on the apparent outline from GRRM, not source material from the books. They just rushed to finish the story over 13 remaining episodes...and to their credit, delivered some amazing cinematography in some (not all) of the major battles.
They just sacrificed a ton in the story telling in the race to finish.
My main gripe with how things ended was how they got there. Danys heel turn was rushed. Bran the King? What an unlikable character, but I am not sure who else becomes King at that point. Maybe if they hadn't made his character so absurd you could've grown to like him "I have to go now"... Can't believe the checked out on LSD guy wins the Game of Thrones.
With that said. I will really miss looking forward to this show. I waited an extra hour or two to watch the final episode. Went and got a nice dinner, checked out the sunset. I was in no rush for this to be the end. I'll rewatch the show eventually. Its my favorite series of all time. I look forward to watching with people who have never seen it before too!
So what he was saying was true at the moment, but once Dany died and Jon refused the throne the dynamics changed. Maybe he had some foresight to see this coming, but in general I don't think Bran was being disingenuous when he said what he said
r/freefolk has been on fire this season. Some absolutely hysterical stuff.
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r/freefolk has been on fire this season. Some absolutely hysterical stuff.
The finale, titled "The Iron Throne," broke the record set by last weekend's episode, "The Bells," for which 18.4 million viewers tuned in.
The viewership for "The Iron Throne" includes 13.6 million people who watched the episode on HBO at 9 p.m. Sunday night, making it the most-watched telecast in the network's history, according to HBO. The rest were viewers who watched an encore presentation, or who streamed the show with the HBO Go or HBO Now apps.
that is all.
Great show and sad to see the run end. They definitely fell off from their peak when Tywin was so good, but overall I still have good thoughts on this show.
On to the next show....
And Essos is East of Westeros. No idea what's out there between the two and I think that was Arya's point, unless it's a joke I just missed.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
No criticisms with that, but Dany heel turn is rushed and Bran is a terrible character. Maybe if the writers had built him up instead of "I have to go now" lines then I'd feel different. Still a great show when you take it in its entirety. Gonna switch to reading the books, hope Martin does a better job.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
At the risk of another self righteous thesis...you're full of shit lol.
He read spoilers and posted them as though he and his brilliant fiance figured it all out because they're special.
Although his analysis left out "Robin Arryn...dick" and "Greyworm...dick" for some reason.
Although not as good as them, Season 8 had the best cinematography by far, and had 2 of the top 3 battle seasons IMO.
Plus I think the scene where Dany is addressing the army after the victory is outstanding, much better the 2nd time now that I am watching more closely. I love how the Dothrakis are riding in circles hooting it up, while the Unsullied are in a perfect line completely militarize. She spoke to both factions telling them exactly what they wanted to hear.
Also when she approached the stairs with the dragon wings behind her, that was great too.
What a great, great show. I can't imagine a better TV production that the last 8 years have been.
Jon in particular. I am quite satisfied by his arc. I didn't need him to be Aegon Targaryen secret royal King taking his rightful place. To me it makes much more sense for him to be with the Free Folk a people who accepted him before they even knew who he was or how powerful he would get. He also is free from the Westerosi politics he despises. It's a good end for him.
Bran as King...meh, I can see the idea. I'm going to need some more coherent info in the books though, but I get the point they're all going for.
Arya traveling makes a lot of sense too as her hero was Nymeria. It's a very Nymeria end. They didn't make the warrior queen Nymeria clear enough in the show, and that was their fault as I think it would have clicked with more people straight away the symbolism of Arya traveling on a ship to a far away land.
I am satisfied with it. I think the end will age much better than the rest of season 8 will.
Link - ( New Window )
The first Targaryen king became so through conquest I imagine. And Robert Baratheon became king through his rebellion and conquest of Kings Landing.
If Jon's claim is due to his bloodlines to Aegon, then Gendry's supersedes him because Robert was more recently king. If his claim is due to his bloodlines to Dany, then it is likely invalidated by the fact that he was the one to kill Dany and the Unsullied would just kill him instead of making him King, leaving no one with a true claim to the throne.
If anything, I suppose Drogon has the best birthright claim, but he abdicated it when he skipped town.
And so it goes, on and on. Power by birthright leading to more and more bloodshed, and so this incremental step forward by the remaining Lords of Westeros was to try and do away with that and pick a leader based on merit.
We reasoned the simple assumption that Jon has to kill Dany, there is no other way, it's just too easy. The biggest threat keeps dying and especially this season the big bad always dies. Only Jon could get close enough, easy to see. Arya told the Hound that she wasn't coming back to Winterfell, duh, she's going to explore. Again, not fucking hard. Bran has to be the king, he's seen it clearly, he set the pieces on the board to removed, he worked it so Theon who betrayed him died. He worked it so the Night King who sent his men to kill Hordor ultimately and overtake the world died. He saw to it that Jamie, who chucked him out of a window died. He knew the throne would be free, he sees everything and he put himself in position to get justice for those who harmed him and to rule because he has the ability to see all of this treachery and prevent it if he can. These are all easy once you realize that Benioff and Weiss had a formula. You do bad, you get punished. Jon HAD to get sent to the wall, he killed his queen, but he saved the world so he gets to live. This isn't rocket science it's behavioral and if you see the pattern emerge it's easy.
Call me what you want, tell me I ruined your sad life because I predicted something or do whatever other childish thing you insist on doing. I see things emerge and I can predict once I see patterns, and my fiance is otherworldly at it. There are clues if you see them. Hell Anakim predicted last week to a T and no one wanted to burn him at the stake. Either way, I didn't read a damn spoiler, I made a guess based on what I've seen. I was right big deal. IF that "ruins" your journey, perhaps you need to examine what value you place on things. I was actually kind of annoyed that I was right, that was a predictable and dull end but it fits the season. Big bad arrives, all hope is lost, someone saves the day and someone pays a price. Now stop whining you big babies.
Yeah... pretty sure you just saw the spoilers on freefolk and posted them.
I guess you would have died this season then. Joey in VA...dick!
2 years to make 6 episodes, this was a pathetic final product.
First 2 episodes should’ve been 1, waste of time.
the battle going from hopeless/the world is coming to an end to “hey arya’s Coming out of nowhere and now this 7-season build up is all done” was absurd.
Jamie’s entire story line was a joke this season
But the CGI was great and i’m Sure appealed to the lowest common denominator that just started watching the show because it was “trending”.
Absolutely awful way of ending what could’ve been the best series ever. Interesting how bad the writing gets when the original author isn’t able to carry your storylines.
Cut to Jon in the north. Children of the Forest plunge an obsidian dagger into his heart. Final shot to end the series is Jon leaning against a tree with the dagger in his heart. Zoom in on his face. Eyes open - they are blue
Fade to black
That took me 10 minutes to think of after I watched the finale last night (after avoiding the internet all day on Sunday and Monday)
Cut to Jon in the north. Children of the Forest plunge an obsidian dagger into his heart. Final shot to end the series is Jon leaning against a tree with the dagger in his heart. Zoom in on his face. Eyes open - they are blue
Fade to black
That took me 10 minutes to think of after I watched the finale last night (after avoiding the internet all day on Sunday and Monday)
Now that wouldve been an awful ending lol. Sorry, Im not trying to be a dick, but yikes. Why would the Children, if there are even any left, re-create the White Walkers after how badly it backfired the first time they did it? That makes less sense than Joey's "dicks die" trail of breadcrumbs.
I think that is a pretty good list, a lot of my favorites were near the top. It also shows better for Season 8 then some on here portray. 8, like the other seasons, has episodes sprinkled throughout the list
You didn’t just reveal the end of the show, you revealed yourself to be the biggest douche on this site, which is saying something. But do the rest of us a favor and put your big boy pants on and own it.
I'd have more respect if you just said you posted spoilers.
you look worse with that bullshit soliloquy.
Forget about there is more holes in it than swiss cheese.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
this was my thought:
pjcas18 : 5/19/2019 10:40 pm : link : reply
on to become Mance Rayder?
There is no Night's Watch (or so it seemed) though we didn't see East Watch I was amazed how much of the wall was rebuilt or we didn't really know how much reanimated Viserys obliterated. Looked like a lot.
Anyway, yes, my assumption is Jon Snow went on to become the new Mance Rayder.
The only real obstacle to believing that was pre-planned is his goodbyes to the Starks. Didn't seem wink wink nod nod to me.
My guess is it's a Mance Rayder and that's what the author told them he has planned and for whatever reason they decided to not make that overly clear. Why, I have no idea.
They could have made it more clear. I personally think sending him north was more of a gesture than an actual punishment. First off, the Wall isn't in the newly minted 6 Kingdoms, its in The North, meaning its not even in their jurisdiction anymore. I also don't believe there is even a Nights Watch. The entire point of the Watch was to man the Wall and protect the realm from the Others (sorry, White Walkers) and in more recent generations Wildlings. Neither are a threat anymore. I don't know how much or or how little of this Grey Worm knows or understands, but I think saying "we're sending you to the Wall" sounds better and more symbolic than "We're banishing you".
In the end it's probably what Jon would've wanted. He was bound by a sense of duty to a realm that no longer needs him. Which could be why he held to the "sentence" despite the Unsullied, who it was meant to appease, leaving Westeros.
That's the type of thing I meant, they made it confusing when it probably didn't have to be.
Also if you think about Tormund's quotes/freefolk "we're not clever like you southerners, when we say we'll do something we do it" and the fact that they honored all their pledges that's definitely the most Jon. Moreso than even the northerners + sansa who maneuvered, questioned every decision he made, and broke her promise to him within 90 seconds.
That’s how I saw the ending too. Kit Harrington could have managed a bit more of a smile at the end, but it seemed clear he went from miserable from prison to Castle Black, to happy once he realized he was going North of the wall to be with the wildlings, who had really become his people. They made a point of showing several wildlings, including children, smiling at him as he rode by them.
They even lingered on a shot of the gate of Castle Black closing behind him, symbolizing him leaving his past in Westeros behind. IMO
He said he’d stay there till the winter storms pass
The Wallshank Redemption?
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
I didnt know irony had a smell. Yet here it is, wafting out of my work monitor.
But nothing like showing up on a thread and calling everyone stupid for not figuring it out! I mean, you know the definition of arrogance, don't you?
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
Again you come along suck the joy out of everything. Joey knows he lied.
The only thing worse than your Game of Thrones takes are your hockey takes.
You come on here and think you are like the angel on Pinto (Larry Kroger's) shoulder, but you really lack self-awareness.
"For shame BBI, how can you accuse brother Joey of a lie without concrete information as to the veracity of this claim"
and then the devil pops up pinto's shoulder and represents most of the rest of us:
"fuck them, fuck joey, fuck 2toiletbowls, fuck them all, he lied and he knows it"
The Night's Watch sentence just made no sense.
The Night's Watch sentence just made no sense.
It's a historical punishment. I'm not sure it's one that Greyworm would have recognized, but every other person at the table would have seen it as a punishment and a suitable and common alternative to execution. That point, at least they could have communicated to Greyworm.
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The North was granted its independence, and he could have been made a lord by Queen Sansa.
The Night's Watch sentence just made no sense.
It's a historical punishment. I'm not sure it's one that Greyworm would have recognized, but every other person at the table would have seen it as a punishment and a suitable and common alternative to execution. That point, at least they could have communicated to Greyworm.
In fact it's the same punishment Ned Stark recommended for Jaime Lanister for killing Aerys and being a "King Slayer"
like Grey worm, Ned didn't understand the far reaching effects killing the monarch would have and simply viewed the killing as dishonorable.
Robert Baratheon, ironically, pardoned Jaime (due to Tywin's influence), but to avoid further war Bran (and he probably knew in the end it's what Jon wanted) offered no such pardon.
Maybe not quite the same purpose, but the Wights and White Walkers were myths for hundreds of years until proven, who knows what else is there, plus as Tyrion said:
I don’t believe the ending was THAT much of a surprise as you seem to believe.
I predicted the following:
1. Dany would die
2. Killed by either Jon or Arya
3. Jon doesn’t want the rule so Tyrion takes over
4. Winterfell doesn’t bend the knee to Tyrion
I didn’t predict John going off with Wildings nor did I predict Bran the Broken as the new ruler.
My point being, most of what happened was predictable. So Joeys predictions were not far fetched. But like I said, to call Joey a dick and a liar is rather presumptous and arrogant and like I said, without any evidence to support, his testimony should be considered golden.
But that is the way I think and reason.
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Come on, dude did it to be a dick.
I don’t believe the ending was THAT much of a surprise as you seem to believe.
I predicted the following:
1. Dany would die
2. Killed by either Jon or Arya
3. Jon doesn’t want the rule so Tyrion takes over
4. Winterfell doesn’t bend the knee to Tyrion
I didn’t predict John going off with Wildings nor did I predict Bran the Broken as the new ruler.
My point being, most of what happened was predictable. So Joeys predictions were not far fetched. But like I said, to call Joey a dick and a liar is rather presumptous and arrogant and like I said, without any evidence to support, his testimony should be considered golden.
But that is the way I think and reason.
Without any evidence? It's literally in this thread.
The spoilers came out a year ago. Turns out they were right. Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
How stupid do you think people are?
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
Lol who is this fingerwagging apologist? Giant Brother - the fuck? Didn't think it was possible to find a worse post than Joey's gutless scramble lie about an omniscient fiancee and brilliant deductive approach of 'if they ever did everything wrong they die' but here we are. You're right, shame on everyone for reacting to what was likely an attempt at malicious 'humor' or just another example of the bullying 'tough dude' personality he puts here that somehow some people buy.
I don't even care that the story was spoiled (it had already been ruined) it's the principle and the hypocrisy - Joey's revealed enough of his personality over the years here that you know such a spineless person would throw a tantrum if something they cared deeper about was ruined for them. I think this is where you should address arrogance, but tell ya what, I'm definitely arrogant enough to say I know your post was fucking dreadful. I suppose I'll continue down my path of overvaluing my own opinion though, thanks.
Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
How stupid do you think people are?
Dude,
I was in the middle of a shit when I read that. Laughed so hard it shot out like a scud missile and the bowl exploded. Water everywhere. Thanks man
Quote:
To all here who accuse Joey in VA of merely posting someone’s leaks AFTER he said he didn’t do that.....shame on you! Unless you have concrete proof you should take him at his word. After all, he is our Giant brother here.
You guys are too arrogant and think you know it all, which is a lot more than you actually do know. Not to mention you value your opinions much more than everyone else’s.
Listen up mates if this applies to you.....it is not a very attractive trait. You might want to rethink what you are communicating to the public in this manner. The only people will approve are people just like you.....
I didnt know irony had a smell. Yet here it is, wafting out of my work monitor.
HA! Perfect!!
Quote:
In comment Giants in 07 said:
Dude waltzes in 2 hours before the finale and gets every single thing dead on and we're supposed to believe that he and his Three Eyed Fiance got lucky.
How stupid do you think people are?
Dude,
I was in the middle of a shit when I read that. Laughed so hard it shot out like a scud missile and the bowl exploded. Water everywhere. Thanks man
TMI
r/freefolk - ( New Window )
Love this from there:
I absolutely hate the pricks calling us, "You shouldn't hate a show coz you didn't like the ending/Not the ending you wanted".
To all those blindly loving this show, here's why:
It tied absolutely no plot ends whatsoever.
What happened to Arya's "wearing faces" thing?
What happened to the Dorne storyline?
Why did no one speak out when the North wanted to be independent? (esp. The Iron Islands)
Why did Brienne leave the north and come south when she pledged to protect Sansa?
Why does Jon have to take the black when there's like 0 threat anymore?
What about the letters which Varys allegedly sent out?
What is the impact of Jon's parentage now?
What is the state of the Vale?
Why didn't Bran warn Dany about the ambush by Euron? (Don't even get me started on the logic or the execution of the ambush)
And for the people saying, don't be so critical of this show:
It's not being over critical. We've been used to stuff being logically and thematically connected and cohesive. Sloppy, CW style writing is not what made GoT popular. Others have asked for these plot lines which went unaddressed (from a comment by u/Remember- below):
What happened to Meera?
What about Howland Reed?
Why did the NK turn on the Children of the Forest?
What is that symbol the NK uses mean?
Can the NK talk?
Who was the person that they turned into the NK?
Why did the NK look different in the Children of the Forest caves in Dragonstone?
What did Varys here in the fire?
What happened to Nymeria?
Is Jaqen going to try and kill Arya?
Did the faceless men know Arya was going to leave them?
Did Syrio live?
What is the backstory behind Arya's dagger?
What happened to the wildling coalition after they went back north?
What was Bran warging in during episode 3?
Did Bran know this was all going to happen?
What was Edmure doing after the freys were killed?
Why did the iron islands just accept Yara again?
What happened to the prophet from Qaath?
Who/what is the lord of light?
What happened with Illyrio and his scheming?
What was the NK's motivation?
Why did he have to kill Bran himself?
What exactly was the connection between the 3 Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest?
What happened with Daario?
What happened to Meeren?
What happened to Aastapor and the other slave cities?
How did Qyburn bring back the mountain, was it science or some sort of blood magic?
What happened/is going to happen with the iron bank?
Who is going to be the head of X, Y, Z houses now?
So what is the deal with the brotherhood now?
Who do the lord of light worshipers follow now, Dany or Jon?
Who was Melisandre?
And yes, not all plot lines can be addressed, that is NOT sloppy writing, but NONE of these were addressed and that is what people are calling sloppy writing (not including the character assassinations)
As for Jon, I think it's deliberately ambiguous. In the books it will necessarily be a POV chapter so at least we'll know what he's thinking. I liked the poster's idea that the wall door closing symbolized Jon's end in Westeros proper, but we'll see. He really is a poetically tragic character and the most like Ned of all of his "children."
Link - ( New Window )
Setting aside that the tv show isn't necessarily the right vehicle to address some of them: Do you even think GRRM will address every one even if he finishes all the books? Sometimes authors and tv shows leave things left unsaid on purpose. (The Russian in the Sopranos episode Pine Barrens obviously died, but they left it somewhat open ended, as an example.) And, as another example, I don't want to know what Varys heard in the fire--I like it better as a mystery.
That list from freefolk is that of someone with an axe to grind. Some of the questions are valid, some don't need answers, and many are just listed in a way that suggests the author would have come up with endless questions no matter what. It reminded me of the way a child asks for an explanation, and then follows every answer with "but why?" until there is an endless pursuit of frustrating the other party.
Those are book questions mostly not show questions.
What Martin can write in 1000's of pages would take years to demonstrate on film.
Some legit questions that most of us have already raised, but for me they're just things I wonder about when thinking about the show, not things that ruined it.
Banished to a kingdom that they no longer control. What motivation does Sansa have to enforce that punishment for the 6 Kingdoms against her cousin?
And why is there even a Night's Watch now?
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
. r/freefolk - ( New Window )
Love this from there:
I absolutely hate the pricks calling us, "You shouldn't hate a show coz you didn't like the ending/Not the ending you wanted".
To all those blindly loving this show, here's why:
It tied absolutely no plot ends whatsoever.
What happened to Arya's "wearing faces" thing?
What happened to the Dorne storyline?
Why did no one speak out when the North wanted to be independent? (esp. The Iron Islands)
Why did Brienne leave the north and come south when she pledged to protect Sansa?
Why does Jon have to take the black when there's like 0 threat anymore?
What about the letters which Varys allegedly sent out?
What is the impact of Jon's parentage now?
What is the state of the Vale?
Why didn't Bran warn Dany about the ambush by Euron? (Don't even get me started on the logic or the execution of the ambush)
And for the people saying, don't be so critical of this show:
It's not being over critical. We've been used to stuff being logically and thematically connected and cohesive. Sloppy, CW style writing is not what made GoT popular. Others have asked for these plot lines which went unaddressed (from a comment by u/Remember- below):
What happened to Meera?
What about Howland Reed?
Why did the NK turn on the Children of the Forest?
What is that symbol the NK uses mean?
Can the NK talk?
Who was the person that they turned into the NK?
Why did the NK look different in the Children of the Forest caves in Dragonstone?
What did Varys here in the fire?
What happened to Nymeria?
Is Jaqen going to try and kill Arya?
Did the faceless men know Arya was going to leave them?
Did Syrio live?
What is the backstory behind Arya's dagger?
What happened to the wildling coalition after they went back north?
What was Bran warging in during episode 3?
Did Bran know this was all going to happen?
What was Edmure doing after the freys were killed?
Why did the iron islands just accept Yara again?
What happened to the prophet from Qaath?
Who/what is the lord of light?
What happened with Illyrio and his scheming?
What was the NK's motivation?
Why did he have to kill Bran himself?
What exactly was the connection between the 3 Eyed Raven and the Children of the Forest?
What happened with Daario?
What happened to Meeren?
What happened to Aastapor and the other slave cities?
How did Qyburn bring back the mountain, was it science or some sort of blood magic?
What happened/is going to happen with the iron bank?
Who is going to be the head of X, Y, Z houses now?
So what is the deal with the brotherhood now?
Who do the lord of light worshipers follow now, Dany or Jon?
Who was Melisandre?
And yes, not all plot lines can be addressed, that is NOT sloppy writing, but NONE of these were addressed and that is what people are calling sloppy writing (not including the character assassinations)
Those are some of the silliest, most ridiculous questions/gripes I’ve read to date.
What happened to Nymeria? Who was Melisandre?
Reminds me of my ex sister in law that once complained to me about the ending of Miracle on 54th St, “I hate it when they end movie like that. I wish they showed how they all lived together as a family in the new house!”
Holy no imagination, Batman.
Sure, the writing of this last season wasn’t up to par, but give me a fucking break.
54, 34, whatever it takes.
Is the Deadwood movie going to be only on HBO?
Would be worth keeping until then (for me).
I also like The Deuce, Succession (another season?) and Silicon Valley but they might not get me to keep it.
Curb I think has another season coming out.
I did want to catch Chernobyl too.
I've heard really good things about Chernobyl and Barry. I'm also hopeful for Westworld season 3.
Game of Thrones Season 8 Pitch Meeting - ( New Window )
Hahaha, was just about to post this
Its really what this season felt like, just an epic blunder that's even more revealing after watching that, haha. Atleast I got to laugh this season.
Gonna finish Chernobyl and see Deadwood. After that...probably not.
Sadly, that’s pretty spot on
Nope but I get it for free anyways with at&t