A lot of $$ was spent on long (and great) battle scenes and special effects (Dragons & destruction) in the later seasons. This meant fewer episodes and less time for character and plot development. This is the result.
I enjoyed it. Others on this thread did as well. You didn't. Others didn't as well.
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
I'm with Eric on this. Liked this ending -- maybe because it went pretty much where I figured it was going to go. George R.R. Martin's answer to "Who should sit on the Iron Throne?" was always going to be "No one." I know some people look at this season as some kind of betrayal of him, but Martin told Benioff & Weiss the story. It's his ending, not theirs. And everything about this season has been totally George R.R. Martin, except maybe that they actually finished the thing.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
This episode was more of the same - people checked out after eps 3/4 Â
because poof - the white walker storyline was gone like that with minimal explanation. The "great war" was a great battle episode lacking context. I'm not quibbling over a minor issue with military tactics or how they killed the NK (who will probably only end up a TV show character) - I actually thought both were really well done - but the mile wide gaps in the overall story telling were too half baked to miss. Especially in these last 2 episodes. I guess when the Night King rose the dead most of those unsullied and Dothraki were allowed to remain alive.
There were things in this episode that were well done but by and large most of the narrative stopped making sense when they decided to try to capture a wight and I guess there just wasn't much they could do to "unfuck" everything. These last 2 seasons were a handful of good moments, extremely well done battle sequences, and writing stringing it all together that was so far beneath the 6 seasons that came prior it kind of amazes me that anyone is being critical of those disappointed. I don't care that they killed Dany. I don't care that they turned her into a heel. I'm disappointed that the past 2 seasons were sloppy, rushed, and extremely bizarre in their choices of what to do with characters. But hey, at least we got to see Edmure's elevator pitch to be king. That was definitely time well spent.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
If you read between the lines of interviews with D&D and GRRM, it's apparent that D&D changed things in the show whenever the audience was able to guess outcomes of major plot points. I think that explains why Arya was the surprise killer of the Night King and Jon's Targaryen lineage and magical resurrection had zero bearing on the plot. In the books, Jon and/or Bran are the likely heroes against the Others and the Azor Azhai prophecy probably means something.
Tyrion walking through the devastation went on a little too long. Discovering Jamie was pro forma heart tug
But the episode was good because the people who can act--Tyrion and Jon--were the focus.
Massie Williams was a cute kid but she is just awful as an adult trying to act. Sansa and Dany are OK in small doses.
But a lot of the minor players, most of whom can act, such as Ser Davos and Bronn and Samwell, were able to take take center stage at the end.
Also, Jon returning to the Night Watch was a twist that nobody saw coming.
But finally the show, as a viewer, was about the 8 years of life that you spent with family, friends and loved ones watching the show. It is bittersweet--like life itself--and I thought they did a good job capturing that with the three Starks all going to their own endings.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Agree to disagree, i guess. I don't need every supernatural element explained, and that wasnt what i was talking about.
To me the most important thing is humans act human - that is, we are driven by motivations logical or emotional. The vital part in writing people is that their actions are driven by something that feels real as an audience member.
I listened to the Breaking Bad insider podcast and know that as they broke the season (sketched episode plots) they ALWAYS started with: where are the characters emotionally, and what do they want? Even if you disagree or it’s illogical, they gave you reasons. WW had chances to stop the meth game, but he turned back into it for ego and because he liked being so good at it, it stopped being financial. Each decision was earned by the character development to that point.
This is where GoT broke down, either in motivation, giving the audience enough time to justify big emotional turns, or not having characters just tell or show why they do things. We have to assume everything.
Dany feels rejected by Jon, but he never explains why he can’t return her feelings - is it the aunt thing? That his family hates her? She turns away and says “It’s fear then...” wouldn’t Jon say “wait, Dany, I do love you but understand my perspective...”
Or when the bells ring, she grimaces and just burns KL down. How about a quick flashback to the beheading of her friend and her friend saying “dracarys!” Or have her say something that lets us to know what’s in her head at that critical moment. In the finale Jon never asks her the obvious - why? She says (unasked) she “had to” as Cerce saw her mercy as weakness....but, that explains why burn the whole red keep despite the human shields, not the entire city. That’s a major turn for a character that protects the innocent. Very little explanation that makes sense is given, a couple of nonsensical lines. I get that she was supposed to feel alone, betrayed, maybe paranoid. But was she crazy? angry and out for blood? Her explanation doesn’t fully mesh with either.
Sansa declares the North independent, the other lands weren’t like, “wait, us too then!” No explanation.
Grey Worm just accepts that Jon who KILLED his queen, liberator, and friend of years will be sent North and Tyrion who betrayed her is the hand? No explanation. So the unsullied are like, oh well...(shrug)
The outcomes were mostly ok, but how they got to them was terribly rushed. Very little dialogue. The finale at least had some, like Tyrion’s speech to Jon about how they let Dany’s power grow. So I like the finale ok. But even the killing of Dany felt rushed and she says...nothing as she dies. Not even: why or you betrayed me again or anything? And the dragon burning the throne? That is an anthropomorphism of the dragon that was not earned by any prior action (not killing Jon, ...ok he’s a Targ, I get that)
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
I totally disagree with Bran being beyond such matters and him being king is inconsistent to his character. He wasn't going to go back to meld with the tree and just observe the world dispassionately. There is no more NK. There is no real wall now. There is no more Children of the forest. As the last greenseer Bran was the only one that made any sense to rule.
was really terrible. I knew it wouldn’t be good, but in my opinion it was just completely awful. There was a lot of great stuff with the the show early on, but this season and especially the finale were brutal. I’m glad some people sound like they enjoyed it though. The ending to me turned it into a show I would never go back and rewatch.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Yes, that's the main reason why it was written. The most important element in how this story concludes is discovering how Dany responds when she is threatened by someone who is not clearly evil (like the slave masters).
The first act of the episode was almost entirely dedicated to exploring how flawed her mindset is, with the revelation of Jon being the true heir to the throne really being the initial trigger for all of her rage thereafter. Without that it may have been too late before everyone saw her true colors.
The second reason is that it allowed all of leaders of the great houses to more easily come to the consensus that Kings should no longer be given their title just because of their blood line. The choice became binary - either have some sort of "republic" where the King is chosen by the leaders, or go back to endless wars over who should be the King of the 7 kingdoms. The discovery of Jon's lineage and his reluctance to take the mantle is what ultimately got us to this point.
I have yet to read the books, bay I am aware of the Â
differences in the story between the series, and the books. I believe that if they followed the books closer, (assuming the books get finished) and included more detail, and paced the show as in the first 4 seasons, GOT could have ran for 15 seasons. We all know it was that good. It was so good it drew us into 2 shortened seasons over 3 years, of what many thought was subpar television.
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
RE: Oh and yeah, Joey's behavior was pathetic as usual Â
spoiling the show's finale is purely mean-spirited. Old idiot acts so tough here as if people don't have memories about him bleating about downturns in his personal life. We know who you really are, bro.
Fuck him.
You know nothing Jon Nitro
I'm glad it's over. If anything, for me, it was too long. I have to Â
say that the best line in this last episode was when Bran said, "Why do you think I came all this way?" But I do think that George R R Martin could have come up with a better name for the character that becomes the ruler at the end of this story than Bran.
that the killing of the Masters of Astapor (for example) was somehow a prescient warning for Dany deciding to kill innocent people in King's Landing in episode 72 of 73. If that was always her fate, then they needed to do a better job of showing that part of her character. Hell, why did she waste any time fighting the Night King when she could've dismissed Cersei and sat on the throne last season? It doesn't make much sense.
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
It doesn’t make sense to me either. In fact, even Tyrion stated to Jon the three things Dany did “and we rejoiced and followed her” for it. That event was one of the three.
People see what they want to see, so no big deal.
RE: RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
Lol, that was pretty funny. I think someone said it last night....the show attempted to be a comedy after Dany’s death. In my opinion, it succeeded at that much better than as a drama. There were some pretty funny scenes including Drogon burning the throne and caring Dany away.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The last two seasons sucked. To finish this story without the book material was way above the writer's pay grade. They were not up to the task and this combined with their expressed lack of enthusiasm and desire to finish the show quick doomed the ending.
For example, the most iconic character is Tyrion, and his whole character died once the book material was out. The great writing from the books which gave birth to the TV Tyrion ran out and his character finished on empty. Same with Varys and Littlefinger.
If you are into the books they will never be finished. Give up on it. Game of Thrones the novel was written I think, in 1996. 1996! Think of your life then and all that has transpired. That was a loooong time ago. Resign yourself to the fact that the absurdity that was this season was the only ending to this story you will ever get.
All the fantasy elements the show writers showed no interest in writing. They invented the Night King and did not even have a story for him. These guys hit entertainment lotto and adapted the book material excellently. As that material ran out, these guys mailed it in and and the combination of incompetence and indifference gave us seasons 7 and 8.
As a final note, the abandonment of Jon Snow as a real character and the joke that was his part in this final season is the biggest crime.
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Jon goes north of The Wall to become a lumberjack.
Lol Gary. My wife immediately said this after it ended. She said I didn’t think there could be an ending worse than Dexter until today. I wasn’t a fan of the Dexter ending either, but it didn’t bother me THAT much, just somewhat.
RE: RE: RE: RE: the only people who wanted Jon punished left Westeros and they still Â
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
They rushed the show and botched because of it. Moved through plot points too quickly. Dialogue became too simple and some of the acting was really bad. To me it seemed liked everyone on the show was ready for it to end. Liked Jon killing Dany. Didn't like how everyone just seemed completely ok with him being fucked? One quick little "sorry we tried" from the Stark gang? Sam didn't say a word to vouch for his best friend? The man who raised an army to defeat the dead? It epitomized how poor this season was.
Bran wants to rule now? The same character they made a point of showing us turn into a cold, silent all seeing man is now the leader of Westeros? The dude who repeatedly said "i'm not bran anymore" is king? You could talk me into many characters ending up on the throne but he doesn't make the list.
you knew this was the final season, you knew they decided to quicken the pacing, and would not go into the same level of development as the book material did or even prior seasons of the show post book material.
the one quibble I have other than the one I first mentioned is why would Dany feel like the Kings Landing townspeople have sworn allegiance to Cersei? I didn't read about one person in any book or see one person in any show act even benevolently toward Cersei besides Qyburn, The Mountain, and Jaime. everyone else hated her.
but it's a minor quibble, they needed some reason to show Dany as destructive, bent on "liberating" those who didn't need or want her liberating.
this ending was nothing like Dexter. I also read most of the Dexter books and the last few seasons of Dexter was like it was written by an intern.
in this show including me. People sat on the edge of their seats on Sunday nights. I accepted each episode for what it was, including last night's and so should everybody else.
For people to stomp their feet and want a "do over" is either very comical or very sad, and probably both.
how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Yep I think 10 episodes in each of the last two seasons with similar endings would have alleviated many of the problems and complaints.
I'm guessing these are the endings that GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss five years ago. Bran as King is a dead give away. He's always been much better fleshed out in the books than in the show. Hell the show just got rid of him for an entire season and basically turned him into a meme the last two seasons. So it seems completely out of nowhere based on show plotting, but would make more sense in the books and is likely what George told them.
The whole dragon pit scene and ultimate resolution of King was clunky and a bit tough to understand. But the ending montage and opening leading to Dany's death salvaged the finale enough for me.
Still love this series, any issues from these last two seasons won't take away what the entire show meant to me.
What about when Bran was talking with his advisors Â
And they say, last they saw of Drogon was that he was heading west...Bran is like I will find him.
What does that mean? He has the ability to warg into the dragon? If that's the case, he couldn't have done that before Euron was taking pot shots with arrows?
I also hated the line, "you were where you were supposed to be." So the whole time, he saw into the future and knew he was going to be king.
I didn't mind the last episode, but just seemed odd to me.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
Seems stupid for that to be the only reason its mentioned.
Maybe the books will explain it better, but the show did a terrible job.
Ive been a fan of the story the entire way until the finale.
and maybe I missed it, but how did they know that Jon killed Dany? I mean the Drogon takes here away, there is blood on the floor, but did he just admit to killing her?
They fast forwarded a "few weeks" to the council in the dragon pit, but maybe I missed how they knew that Jon killed her?
It's a shame the decision was made to end it sooner than later Â
Season 7 could've been two seasons, only six episodes to finish the entire story could've been twelve episodes or more. Still enjoyed it as a whole but the last two seasons feel like a missed opportunity.
over the last two seasons for the worse. Once it got ahead of the books the quality of everything (writing, acting, production, direction) felt off to terrible at times.
I think the part with Bran was lame...the rest of it I could have lived with if it was executed properly, but I dont feel it was.
All the goodbyes were ridiculous and many were unnecessary. "Do you have your needle?" Give me a fucking break.
you dont end a series with a ton of spinoff capabilities Â
Without too many spoliers, my pet peeves: Once Jon does his thing its all downhill. Dothroaki don't rape and pillage in Westeros? Nope we're going home all happy after that long journey and seeing half our army get wiped out. Grey Worm doesn't immediately execute Jon - he waits for the Lords of Westeros, to whom he has no allegiance, to decide the fates of main characters? Then he makes demands on what to do with Snow? Why would they listen to him? Why not crush his foreign army? Who summons the Lords and boy were there some B level Lords there. So sansa gets her things but the Iron Born, who want the same thing, they stay silent. Just poorly written wrap up. All the intrigue and twists and back stabbing and violence that defined the show were tossed aside for a happy ending.
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
has mentioned a couple times that the showrunners and actors want to move onto other things. That's probably a big reason why the show was rushed. HBO likely wouldn't care about it going on longer. There's a lot of people with HBO only for GoT.
One thing that bugged me with their incessant call backs to earlier seasons the past 2 years is that with all the reminiscing none of the Starks bring up Ned or Cat. Their deaths have been a couple years past now, but you'd think that being together for the first time in years it'd come up.
I thought was among the best of the series, with perhaps the single greatest episode, the Winds of Winter finale. And that was beyond the books. I believe with that they showed they could still produce a great story, even beyond the source material.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
I don't understand the purpose of re-animating the Mountain. Â
All he ended up being for the rest of the series was a mute bodyguard for Cersei. The dull fan-service "Clegane Bowl" thing was not a good enough justification for not just leaving him dead after dueling the Red Viper. They were on the third actor anyway.
A lot of it made no sense at all, but that's pretty much par for the course in season 7/8 of this show.
Quote:
Jon Snow did not want to rule the 6-7 Kingdoms.
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Who said he wanted to?
Explain why Bran took it after leading everyone to believe he could never do such a thing?
Sorry, remind me - before tonight, when did anyone ever float the idea of Bran becoming King?
I suspect the appeal of this show will only grow with time after about a 6-month bitch-fest.
Quote:
In comment 14449420 BlackLight said:
Quote:
Jon Snow did not want to rule the 6-7 Kingdoms.
Stop asking why he didn't have a change of heart after he gutted his aunt in the throne room.
Who said he wanted to?
Explain why Bran took it after leading everyone to believe he could never do such a thing?
Sorry, remind me - before tonight, when did anyone ever float the idea of Bran becoming King?
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
There were things in this episode that were well done but by and large most of the narrative stopped making sense when they decided to try to capture a wight and I guess there just wasn't much they could do to "unfuck" everything. These last 2 seasons were a handful of good moments, extremely well done battle sequences, and writing stringing it all together that was so far beneath the 6 seasons that came prior it kind of amazes me that anyone is being critical of those disappointed. I don't care that they killed Dany. I don't care that they turned her into a heel. I'm disappointed that the past 2 seasons were sloppy, rushed, and extremely bizarre in their choices of what to do with characters. But hey, at least we got to see Edmure's elevator pitch to be king. That was definitely time well spent.
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In comment 14449429 halfback20 said:
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
If you read between the lines of interviews with D&D and GRRM, it's apparent that D&D changed things in the show whenever the audience was able to guess outcomes of major plot points. I think that explains why Arya was the surprise killer of the Night King and Jon's Targaryen lineage and magical resurrection had zero bearing on the plot. In the books, Jon and/or Bran are the likely heroes against the Others and the Azor Azhai prophecy probably means something.
But the episode was good because the people who can act--Tyrion and Jon--were the focus.
Massie Williams was a cute kid but she is just awful as an adult trying to act. Sansa and Dany are OK in small doses.
But a lot of the minor players, most of whom can act, such as Ser Davos and Bronn and Samwell, were able to take take center stage at the end.
Also, Jon returning to the Night Watch was a twist that nobody saw coming.
But finally the show, as a viewer, was about the 8 years of life that you spent with family, friends and loved ones watching the show. It is bittersweet--like life itself--and I thought they did a good job capturing that with the three Starks all going to their own endings.
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In comment 14449432 BlackLight said:
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In comment 14449429 halfback20 said:
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Bran said he can never be lord of winterfel. He could never be lord of anything, because he is the three eyed raven.
Does that not lead you to believe he could never be a King?
Bran is like Dr. Strange in all this. He's part world's memory and part seer of all things future. He knows the best possible outcome, but he's forbidden from steering events toward it in anything but the most subtle and counter-intuitive ways.
Doesnt explain why he said he is no longer Bran Stark, and that he can never be a Lord of anything because he is the three eyed raven, only to travel to Kings Landing to claim the throne.
It doesn't make sense.
Of course it doesn't make sense. That's one of the more legitimate criticisms that one can levy at the show - the supernatural elements aren't explained, so we're left feeling our way around in the dark.
The point is, Bran saying that he could never be lord of anything was always part of The Plan that eventually saw him installed as King of Westeros.
Agree to disagree, i guess. I don't need every supernatural element explained, and that wasnt what i was talking about.
I listened to the Breaking Bad insider podcast and know that as they broke the season (sketched episode plots) they ALWAYS started with: where are the characters emotionally, and what do they want? Even if you disagree or it’s illogical, they gave you reasons. WW had chances to stop the meth game, but he turned back into it for ego and because he liked being so good at it, it stopped being financial. Each decision was earned by the character development to that point.
This is where GoT broke down, either in motivation, giving the audience enough time to justify big emotional turns, or not having characters just tell or show why they do things. We have to assume everything.
Dany feels rejected by Jon, but he never explains why he can’t return her feelings - is it the aunt thing? That his family hates her? She turns away and says “It’s fear then...” wouldn’t Jon say “wait, Dany, I do love you but understand my perspective...”
Or when the bells ring, she grimaces and just burns KL down. How about a quick flashback to the beheading of her friend and her friend saying “dracarys!” Or have her say something that lets us to know what’s in her head at that critical moment. In the finale Jon never asks her the obvious - why? She says (unasked) she “had to” as Cerce saw her mercy as weakness....but, that explains why burn the whole red keep despite the human shields, not the entire city. That’s a major turn for a character that protects the innocent. Very little explanation that makes sense is given, a couple of nonsensical lines. I get that she was supposed to feel alone, betrayed, maybe paranoid. But was she crazy? angry and out for blood? Her explanation doesn’t fully mesh with either.
Sansa declares the North independent, the other lands weren’t like, “wait, us too then!” No explanation.
Grey Worm just accepts that Jon who KILLED his queen, liberator, and friend of years will be sent North and Tyrion who betrayed her is the hand? No explanation. So the unsullied are like, oh well...(shrug)
The outcomes were mostly ok, but how they got to them was terribly rushed. Very little dialogue. The finale at least had some, like Tyrion’s speech to Jon about how they let Dany’s power grow. So I like the finale ok. But even the killing of Dany felt rushed and she says...nothing as she dies. Not even: why or you betrayed me again or anything? And the dragon burning the throne? That is an anthropomorphism of the dragon that was not earned by any prior action (not killing Jon, ...ok he’s a Targ, I get that)
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
Earlier episodes like the rapid disposal of the night king threat, the plot armor, inconsistencies and discontinuity, the bad tactics (never explained), etc have been discussed to death and rightfully so. Bran accepting king is inconsistent with him being beyond such matters, but hey, now he’s all good? it just has no consistency.
I totally disagree with Bran being beyond such matters and him being king is inconsistent to his character. He wasn't going to go back to meld with the tree and just observe the world dispassionately. There is no more NK. There is no real wall now. There is no more Children of the forest. As the last greenseer Bran was the only one that made any sense to rule.
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Yes, that's the main reason why it was written. The most important element in how this story concludes is discovering how Dany responds when she is threatened by someone who is not clearly evil (like the slave masters).
The first act of the episode was almost entirely dedicated to exploring how flawed her mindset is, with the revelation of Jon being the true heir to the throne really being the initial trigger for all of her rage thereafter. Without that it may have been too late before everyone saw her true colors.
The second reason is that it allowed all of leaders of the great houses to more easily come to the consensus that Kings should no longer be given their title just because of their blood line. The choice became binary - either have some sort of "republic" where the King is chosen by the leaders, or go back to endless wars over who should be the King of the 7 kingdoms. The discovery of Jon's lineage and his reluctance to take the mantle is what ultimately got us to this point.
As for the ending, the title tells all Game Of Thrones. It was all a game to get to power. Bran played the game better than everyone else, with the runners up being Tyrion, Sansa. Outstanding achievement awards going to Bron, and Davos.
Fuck him.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The Starks sure made out well.
Whatever happened to Ellaria Sand?
It doesn’t make sense to me either. In fact, even Tyrion stated to Jon the three things Dany did “and we rejoiced and followed her” for it. That event was one of the three.
People see what they want to see, so no big deal.
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In comment 14449267 Nitro said:
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Jon riding off to be with the Wildings was the best part of the show for me. Reunited with Thormund and Ghost was cool.
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Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Dude, don't ask questions.
Lol, that was pretty funny. I think someone said it last night....the show attempted to be a comedy after Dany’s death. In my opinion, it succeeded at that much better than as a drama. There were some pretty funny scenes including Drogon burning the throne and caring Dany away.
Apparently he wanted the series to run for 12 to 13 seasons.
The last two seasons sucked. To finish this story without the book material was way above the writer's pay grade. They were not up to the task and this combined with their expressed lack of enthusiasm and desire to finish the show quick doomed the ending.
For example, the most iconic character is Tyrion, and his whole character died once the book material was out. The great writing from the books which gave birth to the TV Tyrion ran out and his character finished on empty. Same with Varys and Littlefinger.
If you are into the books they will never be finished. Give up on it. Game of Thrones the novel was written I think, in 1996. 1996! Think of your life then and all that has transpired. That was a loooong time ago. Resign yourself to the fact that the absurdity that was this season was the only ending to this story you will ever get.
All the fantasy elements the show writers showed no interest in writing. They invented the Night King and did not even have a story for him. These guys hit entertainment lotto and adapted the book material excellently. As that material ran out, these guys mailed it in and and the combination of incompetence and indifference gave us seasons 7 and 8.
As a final note, the abandonment of Jon Snow as a real character and the joke that was his part in this final season is the biggest crime.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Lol Gary. My wife immediately said this after it ended. She said I didn’t think there could be an ending worse than Dexter until today. I wasn’t a fan of the Dexter ending either, but it didn’t bother me THAT much, just somewhat.
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In comment 14449330 Mr. Bungle said:
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In comment 14449267 Nitro said:
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punish Jon? Sure why not, the audience is fucking stupid anyway.
Punishing Jon was spectacularly idiotic. He goes from THE true heir to...the Night's Watch?
Lol, ok. Whatevs.
Why is there still a Night's Watch?
Jon riding off to be with the Wildings was the best part of the show for me. Reunited with Thormund and Ghost was cool.
Did he desert the NW?
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Bran wants to rule now? The same character they made a point of showing us turn into a cold, silent all seeing man is now the leader of Westeros? The dude who repeatedly said "i'm not bran anymore" is king? You could talk me into many characters ending up on the throne but he doesn't make the list.
you knew this was the final season, you knew they decided to quicken the pacing, and would not go into the same level of development as the book material did or even prior seasons of the show post book material.
the one quibble I have other than the one I first mentioned is why would Dany feel like the Kings Landing townspeople have sworn allegiance to Cersei? I didn't read about one person in any book or see one person in any show act even benevolently toward Cersei besides Qyburn, The Mountain, and Jaime. everyone else hated her.
but it's a minor quibble, they needed some reason to show Dany as destructive, bent on "liberating" those who didn't need or want her liberating.
this ending was nothing like Dexter. I also read most of the Dexter books and the last few seasons of Dexter was like it was written by an intern.
For people to stomp their feet and want a "do over" is either very comical or very sad, and probably both.
What's wrong with people?
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how divisive the show has become among the fan base. Maybe my expectations were just lowered that it didn't take much for me to be satisfied with the ending. But I thought it was solid. Not on par with what the show was at its peak, but still a satisfying enough ending.
I thought the first 30-40 minutes, essentially up to Dany's death, were really great and gripping stuff. The rush forward a few weeks to the meeting at the dragon pit is tough, just a function of not having enough time. So much missed that we should be seeing. And ultimately, Bran as King I can understand being a tough sell because the show just hasn't done a good job building him the last two seasons.
But the ends for the Starks felt fitting. Jon up North as he never wanted to be King, Sansa leading an independent North, and Arya exploring the west. It was certainly rushed to get there, won't deny that, but the end result at least feels somewhat close to what GRRM would write if he ever gets around to it
Agree - it was rushed but made sense in the end. They just blew it with the 13 episodes. You could have gotten to this point in 20 or more and developed Bran and the tension between Dany and Jon a lot better.
Yep I think 10 episodes in each of the last two seasons with similar endings would have alleviated many of the problems and complaints.
I'm guessing these are the endings that GRRM gave Benioff and Weiss five years ago. Bran as King is a dead give away. He's always been much better fleshed out in the books than in the show. Hell the show just got rid of him for an entire season and basically turned him into a meme the last two seasons. So it seems completely out of nowhere based on show plotting, but would make more sense in the books and is likely what George told them.
The whole dragon pit scene and ultimate resolution of King was clunky and a bit tough to understand. But the ending montage and opening leading to Dany's death salvaged the finale enough for me.
Still love this series, any issues from these last two seasons won't take away what the entire show meant to me.
What does that mean? He has the ability to warg into the dragon? If that's the case, he couldn't have done that before Euron was taking pot shots with arrows?
I also hated the line, "you were where you were supposed to be." So the whole time, he saw into the future and knew he was going to be king.
I didn't mind the last episode, but just seemed odd to me.
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In comment 14449430 81_Great_Dane said:
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In comment 14449413 halfback20 said:
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
I thought it was made pretty clear Daenerys' Unsullied supporters weren't going to go along with Jon Snow. It would be war all over again, and the idea was to end the war. They wanted him dead, they weren't going let him be king. It was all his family could do to get him out of there alive, even if the price was banishment to the Night's Watch. (wink wink)
Im fine with all of that. But why didnt someone mention it? All the build up of his parents and how he is the true heir to the iron throne, (remember how they revealed this through bran) and not one mention of it at the end. It just seems like there was only one reason that was written, and that was to drive a wedge between him and Dany.
Well that kind of had a big role in her going mad queen and him killing her...
Seems stupid for that to be the only reason its mentioned.
Maybe the books will explain it better, but the show did a terrible job.
Ive been a fan of the story the entire way until the finale.
It is what it is, but I hated the ending.
They fast forwarded a "few weeks" to the council in the dragon pit, but maybe I missed how they knew that Jon killed her?
I think the part with Bran was lame...the rest of it I could have lived with if it was executed properly, but I dont feel it was.
All the goodbyes were ridiculous and many were unnecessary. "Do you have your needle?" Give me a fucking break.
this was shit at its finest. They had the chance to end it with a quality story in terms of the Wire or Six feet under. Instead it ended so flat.
TOOOO many questions and open ended areas.
this is why i wish the fucking Night King killed them all
Executing Jon for murdering the queen just wasn’t going to happen. So, they had to come up with an alternative they thought we the audience could better accept. Moving in with the wildings and being reunited with Ghost was the compromise they hoped would satisfy. I think it worked better than Greyworm killing Jon.
Making Bran the King was another stretch, but again, they had to compromise. Sure, it was made evident that Bran up until now only wanted to be part of that tree. But, the writers had to find a ruler who would not make the audience and the characters THAT upset:
Jon- no way, Unsullied wouldn’t have it
Sansa- she never wanted to leave WF
Tyrion- like he said, all the people hated him
Sam- probably would have worked better than Sam but I guess they didn’t go that way. I agree, making Bran it was somewhat comical and came out of nowhere, but they were in a hurry to go home.
Those two decisions were probably the most important ( everyone could see Dany was a goner so that decision was already made).
I hope this explanation helps you a bit.
I hope GRRM finishes the books.
One thing that bugged me with their incessant call backs to earlier seasons the past 2 years is that with all the reminiscing none of the Starks bring up Ned or Cat. Their deaths have been a couple years past now, but you'd think that being together for the first time in years it'd come up.
They just gave themselves an impossible task to wrap up in 13 episodes. There were some successes and failures, but I don't see any way they could have done this to make everyone happy with the time frame they gave themselves. It is what it is
2) Jon Snow can't marry due to his sentence, can he have another "wilding" red headed girlfriend?