the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
yes, in the end he got what he wanted, but he seemed melancholy - at least having the decision made for him - or who knows how he really felt he always seemed melancholy. but by save him I meant from any "punishment" at all.
I was even happy with yesterday's episode until the moments following Dany's death. I thought the time jump from Drogon flying off with her to seeing Tyrion lying in his cell was really clumsy. I was left with what I thought were important questions:
- Why didn't Drogon kill Jon?
- Why didn't the Unsullied or Dothraki kill Jon?
- How did people even find out Dany was dead?
I suppose Jon gave himself up and told them what he did? And we're supposed to believe he wouldn't have been executed for that... That they would imprison him? I'm not someone that demands the story go a certain way, but this felt like massively important shit. I would rather have had those questions answered than to see the cheesy scenes that comprised the second half of the episode.
Their error, IMO, was the need to wrap up characters that didn't need wrapping up. The whole second half would have been better had it focused solely on Jon after he killed Dany.
This show went from being one of the best ever to ho-hum in just two short seasons. It was such a steady downhill trajectory that got worse with each and every episode
There's also the question of how people knew that Jon killed Â
Dany. Only Drogon was there and it's not like he can talk. Dany gets whisked away, never to be seen again.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
It's Jon, so he's both honorable enough and stupid enough to fess up.
Not sure how the Unsullied guarding the Queen, presumably right outside the throne room, wouldn't have come in to investigate while Drogon was destroying things...
If there's one thing we know about Jon, he's his "uncle's son" and he wouldn't lie about what happened. He definitely just fessed up. How he avoided being murdered on the spot by the armies is another story. Agree with Terps that the time jump after the murder leaves a lot of questions unanswered. I thought everything up to that point was pretty great. But again, time was of the essence.
Already is naive. Please post your social security number so I can buy some crap on the internet.
We were told the last book was done how many times? Guy has lied out of his ass for going on 20 years about time lines and stuff about not all this. The one thing I do believe is that he writes stuff and then rips it up and starts over.
I was never emotionally invested In The TV series as an avid book reader. They made more than enough dumb choices once the years but people loved the character so they go away w most. And as its men mentioned over an over it’s obvious once the road map
Of source material was gone it and to shit. Martin cant even
Finish the last book but he can guide them
When he Can’t guide himself.
You can’t please Everyone but only the desperate fans want to shine the turd this season was. And if they want to like it fine w me. I’m just waiting formMartin and Patrick Rothfuss to write a series together. That would be great. Four score and 7 years ago we wrote a book
For me, this was like Prince Seigfried having to kill Â
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is Sansa easily getting independence. They used to all be separate realms and they have all been ravaged yet only the north gets independence
and I thought they tied up everything as well as one could hope for given that it's a series finale of an epic with the scope of Game of Thrones. All of the characters' moves and maneuvers made sense to me. And the visuals were stunning.
I thought this "shot" (not a "shot," per se, since it's CGI) was one of the coolest visuals I've seen in any show, ever.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
On the Throne, Davos as his Hand.. Tyrion as master of coin.. Grey Worm dead.. Sansa ruling the North, Bran as master of whispers (he knows everything).
As for the Dragons, they are meant to be very intelligent. Not to mention magical creatures, him burning the throne was a little much IMO but I believe Drogon was intelligent enough to recognize what destroyed his brothers and mother. To be honest I was expecting Dany to be paranoid and order Drogon to kill Jon right in front of the throne (ala the mad king burning people in the throne rooml, Drogon refusing (due to him being of dragons blood) and flying away as Jon approaches her and slays her with Longclaw to the heart.
Whatever
RE: The dragon was smart. he knew what was going on Â
Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
RE: RE: The dragon was smart. he knew what was going on Â
Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I think the Bran scheming thing is 1 of the most interesting unexplored aspects of this resolution. It certainly gives potential justification for why the NK may have viewed him as a high value target (assuming he and Bran shared a similar ability to see into the future). Also gives a lot more incentive in terms of why Bran was so hush hush about anything that happened. His character really got back burner treatment since going back to WF and maybe on a rewatch there will be moments we glossed over that take on a greater importance, but I think it's likely they should have just given him more moments.
though I loved that we got 80 minute episodes which may not have been the case otherwise. D&D decided they wanted to wrap it up in 13 episodes over the last two seasons and decided to force that to make everything fit. 16-20 episodes would have been more enjoyable from a pacing perspective.
Part of the problem was that for as much as the criticism leveled at D&D, GRRM didn't make things easy, either. He had some final plots in mind, but he has no idea how to get from where he left off the books to his finale because he planted so many seeds and his garden keeps growing.
Generally, I think a lot of the criticism at the way the show came to an end has more to do with the near-impossible task of perfectly landing this plane. The scope of the Game of Thrones universe is unlike any TV show ever, save Lost perhaps; and Lost was another show that caught a lot of criticism for how it tried to wrap things up.
I do think the writing was better in earlier seasons, but I also enjoyed earlier seasons more because there were more plot lines and more possibilities. There were more factions, more scheming, and more possibilities for how the show could go because it was merely telling a story with no need to try and end it.
Once the show got into finale mode, they had to slowly funnel all of the plotlines into a singular ending. As that happens, character arcs end and the story focuses on fewer and fewer characters, and so there is less possibility for the fate of the show and I think that just naturally makes it less exciting.
It reminds me of the NCAA tournament. The first four days are always the best part (unless you have a team still alive) because there is so much chaos, so many more storylines, and so many more things to focus your attention on. It goes from 48 games in the first four days, to just 12 games in the four days a week later. And then down to 3 games the following week. Sure, the stakes are higher, but there is less stimulation.
For me, my three favorite characters were always Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys and I always cared about them more than the mains like Jon and Dany. I loved the scheming and I particularly loved when all three were in different places infecting three separate storyboards. But as the show started to wrap up, Littlefinger was killed, and Tyrion and Varys were both handcuffed a bit in that they attached to Dany's quest and had to stick with her logistically. In that regard, the latter part of the series was always going to be less appealing to me, plot-wise.
screen time. Every time he spoke I was increasing the volume to make sure I heard every word correctly.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Agreed - i think there's a long list of characters who this could be said of in this final season (and interactions among them). Tyrion + Bran, Davos, Jon, Varys, Sansa, Sam, off the top of my head. All of them got little bits and pieces but all of them got short shrift IMO.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
My takeaway from it was that Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven before him) were smarter or savvier than they let on. Perhaps a bit of a Verbal Kint / Keyser Soze situation. I'm not sure how much they knew, but I think Bran/3ER was participating in the game of thrones just like all the others. And they were making moves along the way. I'm looking forward to re-watching scenes with Bran and how he interacted with various characters over the last few seasons.
As for Sam, I don't think the suggestion of a democracy was meant to be a swipe at the current situation. I think it was meant to show that the realm was making incremental progress towards a better way of governance (no longer monarchy by birthright), but that they weren't anywhere near progressive enough to cede all of their power to just the will of the people. That would have been too radical.
me wonder a little bit of maybe Bran was a little more conniving than most of us expected.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
I had the same thought. Like GRRM may have told them Bran ended up on the throne, but the details were left to D&D. IF that's the case, I imagine GRRM goes into a lot more detail developing Bran's character along the way (assuming the books are ever written).
Quote:
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I thought that too, but that type of reaction (laughing at the suggestion) is likely what would've happened in the real world. Even after the US revolted against the King's tyranny, they put in place the electoral college...
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
or Tyrion-- they were humongous bargaining chips. The remaining Lannister soldiers were worthless. The remaining Lords didn't care about Lannister soldiers and they were nobodies.
Jon/Tyrion had relevance to the rest of Westeros, especially the remaining Starks.
With Dany dead, you had Grey Worm and a legion of rule-following Unsullied and remaining barbaric Dothraki in Kings Landing without a purpose. King's Landing meant nothing to the Dothraki so I could see them wanting to be in the plains roaming around on horseback or whatever it is they do.
But what are the Unsullied to do. It was almost as if Grey Worm needed direction-- or needed a challenge from the other Lords so that he had a position to take.
All Grey Worm knew of the world was following orders, killing people, and that he fell in love with Missandei of Narth wanted to go there after the war.
If he kills Jon/Tyrion, then what? Stay in destroyed Kings Landing? For what? Why would he want to rebuild a city? Fight the Northmen just to fight a war? For what?
Keeping Jon/Tyrion alive obviously serves as a plot convenience to bring everyone together and to keep Jon and Tyrion alive, but it also give Grey Worm his own purpose for what to do in the immediate aftermath of Dany's death.
of revealing Jon's lineage and then spreading it was to turn Dany.
I know some people need to go to a safe space to hear it, but Dany was probably in her heart well meaning, but in her head and blood she was ruthless and likely driven insane - mainly due to genetics because she born a child of incest.
People who doubt this should read the backstory about King Aerys and (and prior Targaryen rulers) and how great his rule started but how little things would set him off into silent rages of jealousy. Mostly narcissistic things that were similarly obvious with Daenerys.
Once she learned Jon had a better claim to the throne than she did and once she saw the love, warmth, embracing, deifying that he received in Westeros, it began eating away at her and she knew she would never be loved.
Now we know Bran knew the outcome this would lead to and when Jon says "tell them" to Sansa and Arya he didn't object. Bran used Jon. Maybe even Sam.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
Agreed. And when Dany learned of Jon's lineage which made him the rightful heir to the throne, what did she do? Did she offer to step aside and throw her support to Jon since he was the rightful heir to the throne that belonged to her family? No, she begged him to lie and to keep it a secret because it could get in the way of her taking the throne-- a throne that she has no rightful claim to.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
That's not the same thing. It wasn't absurd for the dragons to remain docile when they didn't sense a threat from Tyrion. It was definitely a tense, suspenseful scene, because they certainly could have incinerated him. But the fact that they didn't does not mean that they were engaging in symbolic reasoning. Otherwise, we could say the same thing about wild animals in our own world who choose not to attack in given situations.
But to look at an iron chair and conclude, "That's a symbol of the reckless ambition that truly killed my mother!" and then incinerate the symbol is a ridiculous thing to have a dragon in this story's universe do.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
Excellent points.
Cersei's actions in Winds of Winter are analogous to Dany's in The Bells, albeit on a smaller level. However, like you said, there were seasons of buildup to these actions on Cersei's part that made them neither a surprise nor out of character. Despite the writers' and some viewers' efforts to align Dany's actions in The Bells with things like the burning of Astapor's masters or the Tarlys, these things aren't in the same ballpark or even the same damn sport. There was no buildup to Dany's actions. That's just bad writing. While Dany was a multi-faceted character capable of good and bad deeds, she wasn't a murderer of innocent women and children. Don't have a character be something for 71 episodes, then something else for eps 72 and 73.
worst ending to any show ever. I mean it is ridiculously bad if you ask me. Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell can now be King... It is why he went all the way down there... Can that be anymore more stupid?
How do they even know Jon killed Dany? Why show that scene that isn't something the people would like to see! They cut away from so many moments to leave you wanting to know like when Bran told Sansa and Arya about Jon. So what he admitted it to Greyworm and Greyworm was like ok let me lock you up after I am just killing people in the street I am not going to try and kill you.
Power hungry Sansa and the north won't even bow down to the a Stark king? Really everyone is cool with that? Sure fine the North won't want a Stark king of course not they want a Stark Queen instead. I mean come on that is stupid. I could see that if they made like Gendry King, but they put a northmen on throne.
Jon went from the most important part of the whole start of Fire and Ice to basically a nothing the whole show in the end. He didn't do much in the battle, let Greyworm just kill those men who gave up, and killed Dany and then went and sat down in a jail cell before being banished north. This is so dumb. They just ruined characters in this show as soon as they passed the source materials. Think about it Dany turns into Mad Queen and brutal while not listening to anyone, Jon is useless and banished away, Bran who barely even talks for how many seasons is not the 3ER and King, Tyrion they turned into the stupidest man alive getting out smarted and fulled by everyone, Arya becomes a faceless men to take out the Freys, I mean I could go on and on with this crap.
Ruined the whole show and if this is how the books are I won't even read them if they ever come out. Actually if I am GRRM I am happy that HBO blew the ending so bad because he books would have to be 10 times better.
Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
The only prediction I got right was houses, lineages, claims to the thrones, etc wouldn't matter much in the end. Didn't know how it would go down but it looked obvious that squabbling over who's got the most Targaryen or Baratheon, or whoevers blood would be relatively pointless.
I believe the overwhelming consensus is that there was way too much ground to cover in a very short period of time.
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
Imagine if Twitter existed and had hundreds of millions of users when Mash, or The Sopranos, or any other major show was wrapping up and commenting in real time for every episode.
Also, those shows had much smaller universes to deal with and are really bout a main character or small group of characters in a localized setting.
Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
RE: My other main issue with the show is the Night King Â
being positioned as an existential threat, then having less staying power than Ramsey fucking Bolton.
Agreed - this and the poorly written Dany turn are my 2 core plot complaints this final season.
Also re: your last post about the poor Dany turn, I thought this episode made it seem even sillier since they seemed to write her to be completely delusional about what happened/what she did. After last week those defending it as within her character had a variety of reasons for doing so - "she's always been ruthless", "she was jealous of jon", "she went mad", and it clearly seems like they predominantly went through door #3. But they wrote her so heavy handed mad this past episode thinking that those in KL were intentionally allied with Cersei. Literally the episode prior to the battle of KL they had conversations about how Cersei was doing that intentionally at the expense of her people and a couple episodes she's completely delusional believing that the people of KL chose Cersei.
So I guess we don't find out what Bran was warging into Â
at the Battle for Winterfell and basically Theon died for nothing.
He warged into the ravens. As soon as he warged, it cut to the ravens flying north to The Night King. He was getting TNK's attention (since he is marked) to draw him to the weirwood such that Arya could kill him.
Quote:
is kill Grey Worm.
the unsullied need a leader, they literally live to follow directions. I guess there's a chance they act out of vengeance because they can show emotion, but if they killed Grey Worm not out in the open, say with poison (not unheard of in this show) I think the Unsullied lose their edge and order.
there were not enough Dothraki left to mount a challenge IMO.
Save Jon from what? His absolute freedom and all he wanted at that point?
yes, in the end he got what he wanted, but he seemed melancholy - at least having the decision made for him - or who knows how he really felt he always seemed melancholy. but by save him I meant from any "punishment" at all.
Bran gets the crown.
Jon Snow gets sent up north.
Sansa is Queen of the North.
Arya becomes a nomad.
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
- Why didn't Drogon kill Jon?
- Why didn't the Unsullied or Dothraki kill Jon?
- How did people even find out Dany was dead?
I suppose Jon gave himself up and told them what he did? And we're supposed to believe he wouldn't have been executed for that... That they would imprison him? I'm not someone that demands the story go a certain way, but this felt like massively important shit. I would rather have had those questions answered than to see the cheesy scenes that comprised the second half of the episode.
Their error, IMO, was the need to wrap up characters that didn't need wrapping up. The whole second half would have been better had it focused solely on Jon after he killed Dany.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
Frankly. it's the only place Jon found happiness (with Ygritte). It's where Jon belongs.
As for Arya, outside of her family she has no human relationships. She's broken and a true lone wolf.
I guess we can deduce Jon fessed up.
It's Jon, so he's both honorable enough and stupid enough to fess up.
Not sure how the Unsullied guarding the Queen, presumably right outside the throne room, wouldn't have come in to investigate while Drogon was destroying things...
For long epic stories like this, the ending is always difficult to be rewarding and satisfying.
If you focus on the journey, and not the destination you will be less pissed off.
We were told the last book was done how many times? Guy has lied out of his ass for going on 20 years about time lines and stuff about not all this. The one thing I do believe is that he writes stuff and then rips it up and starts over.
I was never emotionally invested In The TV series as an avid book reader. They made more than enough dumb choices once the years but people loved the character so they go away w most. And as its men mentioned over an over it’s obvious once the road map
Of source material was gone it and to shit. Martin cant even
Finish the last book but he can guide them
When he Can’t guide himself.
You can’t please Everyone but only the desperate fans want to shine the turd this season was. And if they want to like it fine w me. I’m just waiting formMartin and Patrick Rothfuss to write a series together. That would be great. Four score and 7 years ago we wrote a book
The only thing better would have been for Seigfried, Jon, to take his own life with her...
Bran gets the crown.
Jon Snow gets sent up north.
Sansa is Queen of the North.
Arya becomes a nomad.
Does it make sense? Kinda, but it's boring. I call that uncreative and bland.
the only thing that doesn't make sense is Sansa easily getting independence. They used to all be separate realms and they have all been ravaged yet only the north gets independence
I thought this "shot" (not a "shot," per se, since it's CGI) was one of the coolest visuals I've seen in any show, ever.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
As for the Dragons, they are meant to be very intelligent. Not to mention magical creatures, him burning the throne was a little much IMO but I believe Drogon was intelligent enough to recognize what destroyed his brothers and mother. To be honest I was expecting Dany to be paranoid and order Drogon to kill Jon right in front of the throne (ala the mad king burning people in the throne rooml, Drogon refusing (due to him being of dragons blood) and flying away as Jon approaches her and slays her with Longclaw to the heart.
Whatever
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
Quote:
Instead of burning Jon, he knew it was the power grab that killed Dany. He burned the iron throne to the ground, the symbol of power.
Give me one example from any other episode in any season where one of the dragons exhibited that level of intelligence.
In that moment -- from out of nowhere -- a dragon had the capacity for abstract, symbolic reasoning. That's basically the same thing as the dragon being able to read.
One last "We just don't give a shit anymore" moment of absurdity from Benioff and Weiss.
Tyrion freed them after Dany had chained them up, and she was missing. They let him free them and didnt eat him.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I think the Bran scheming thing is 1 of the most interesting unexplored aspects of this resolution. It certainly gives potential justification for why the NK may have viewed him as a high value target (assuming he and Bran shared a similar ability to see into the future). Also gives a lot more incentive in terms of why Bran was so hush hush about anything that happened. His character really got back burner treatment since going back to WF and maybe on a rewatch there will be moments we glossed over that take on a greater importance, but I think it's likely they should have just given him more moments.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Part of the problem was that for as much as the criticism leveled at D&D, GRRM didn't make things easy, either. He had some final plots in mind, but he has no idea how to get from where he left off the books to his finale because he planted so many seeds and his garden keeps growing.
Generally, I think a lot of the criticism at the way the show came to an end has more to do with the near-impossible task of perfectly landing this plane. The scope of the Game of Thrones universe is unlike any TV show ever, save Lost perhaps; and Lost was another show that caught a lot of criticism for how it tried to wrap things up.
I do think the writing was better in earlier seasons, but I also enjoyed earlier seasons more because there were more plot lines and more possibilities. There were more factions, more scheming, and more possibilities for how the show could go because it was merely telling a story with no need to try and end it.
Once the show got into finale mode, they had to slowly funnel all of the plotlines into a singular ending. As that happens, character arcs end and the story focuses on fewer and fewer characters, and so there is less possibility for the fate of the show and I think that just naturally makes it less exciting.
It reminds me of the NCAA tournament. The first four days are always the best part (unless you have a team still alive) because there is so much chaos, so many more storylines, and so many more things to focus your attention on. It goes from 48 games in the first four days, to just 12 games in the four days a week later. And then down to 3 games the following week. Sure, the stakes are higher, but there is less stimulation.
For me, my three favorite characters were always Tyrion, Littlefinger, and Varys and I always cared about them more than the mains like Jon and Dany. I loved the scheming and I particularly loved when all three were in different places infecting three separate storyboards. But as the show started to wrap up, Littlefinger was killed, and Tyrion and Varys were both handcuffed a bit in that they attached to Dany's quest and had to stick with her logistically. In that regard, the latter part of the series was always going to be less appealing to me, plot-wise.
great character. not enough screen time IMO
Agreed - i think there's a long list of characters who this could be said of in this final season (and interactions among them). Tyrion + Bran, Davos, Jon, Varys, Sansa, Sam, off the top of my head. All of them got little bits and pieces but all of them got short shrift IMO.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
At this point, that would have been great. He should wheeled out of the small council and pulled a usual suspects ending. Winter came, bitch
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
My takeaway from it was that Bran (and the Three Eyed Raven before him) were smarter or savvier than they let on. Perhaps a bit of a Verbal Kint / Keyser Soze situation. I'm not sure how much they knew, but I think Bran/3ER was participating in the game of thrones just like all the others. And they were making moves along the way. I'm looking forward to re-watching scenes with Bran and how he interacted with various characters over the last few seasons.
As for Sam, I don't think the suggestion of a democracy was meant to be a swipe at the current situation. I think it was meant to show that the realm was making incremental progress towards a better way of governance (no longer monarchy by birthright), but that they weren't anywhere near progressive enough to cede all of their power to just the will of the people. That would have been too radical.
Did he knew what he was doing the whole time?
He was able to see the future and he didn't say F-it, I'm staying here in Winterfell embedding myself in the roots if a weirwood tree.
maybe he was the puppet master all along?
I had the same thought. Like GRRM may have told them Bran ended up on the throne, but the details were left to D&D. IF that's the case, I imagine GRRM goes into a lot more detail developing Bran's character along the way (assuming the books are ever written).
One other unrelated thought and I hope this doesn't trigger anyone, it's seriously just a question. when Sam suggested using the "popular vote" for selecting the king/queen and everyone laughs in his face, was that a swipe/praise at the current American political system? Not clear on anyone related to the shows political affiliations, but when that was suggested and everyone laughed at him it's what I thought of. I bet twitter was ablaze with comments on that.
I thought that too, but that type of reaction (laughing at the suggestion) is likely what would've happened in the real world. Even after the US revolted against the King's tyranny, they put in place the electoral college...
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Jon/Tyrion had relevance to the rest of Westeros, especially the remaining Starks.
With Dany dead, you had Grey Worm and a legion of rule-following Unsullied and remaining barbaric Dothraki in Kings Landing without a purpose. King's Landing meant nothing to the Dothraki so I could see them wanting to be in the plains roaming around on horseback or whatever it is they do.
But what are the Unsullied to do. It was almost as if Grey Worm needed direction-- or needed a challenge from the other Lords so that he had a position to take.
All Grey Worm knew of the world was following orders, killing people, and that he fell in love with Missandei of Narth wanted to go there after the war.
If he kills Jon/Tyrion, then what? Stay in destroyed Kings Landing? For what? Why would he want to rebuild a city? Fight the Northmen just to fight a war? For what?
Keeping Jon/Tyrion alive obviously serves as a plot convenience to bring everyone together and to keep Jon and Tyrion alive, but it also give Grey Worm his own purpose for what to do in the immediate aftermath of Dany's death.
I know some people need to go to a safe space to hear it, but Dany was probably in her heart well meaning, but in her head and blood she was ruthless and likely driven insane - mainly due to genetics because she born a child of incest.
People who doubt this should read the backstory about King Aerys and (and prior Targaryen rulers) and how great his rule started but how little things would set him off into silent rages of jealousy. Mostly narcissistic things that were similarly obvious with Daenerys.
Once she learned Jon had a better claim to the throne than she did and once she saw the love, warmth, embracing, deifying that he received in Westeros, it began eating away at her and she knew she would never be loved.
Now we know Bran knew the outcome this would lead to and when Jon says "tell them" to Sansa and Arya he didn't object. Bran used Jon. Maybe even Sam.
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
Maybe so. But no one said a word about it. Thats my issue. I didn't need Jon to be king.
For long epic stories like this, the ending is always difficult to be rewarding and satisfying.
If you focus on the journey, and not the destination you will be less pissed off.
But the journey itself was unsatisfying. The palace intrigue and tension hasn't been the same since the series went beyond the books.
It helped turn her mad because he was always going to be an existential threat and that she could never trust him no matter what he said because of her own paranoia and insecurity.
Additionally, revealing his lineage offers an explanation as to why Drogon didn't try to kill him at the end. Perhaps drogon had no interest in killing a fellow Targaryen-- the last of the Targaryens.
And, if nothing else, revealing his lineage created worthwhile intrigue for the fans. It allowed him to interact and ride dragons.
It was also classic dramatic irony. The audience knew something and it created enjoyable suspense and tension to see how that would evolve and what the results would be. It's like the audience knowing that there is a bomb with a timer in a building. The bomb doesn't have to go off for it to be important or consequential.
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
That's not the same thing. It wasn't absurd for the dragons to remain docile when they didn't sense a threat from Tyrion. It was definitely a tense, suspenseful scene, because they certainly could have incinerated him. But the fact that they didn't does not mean that they were engaging in symbolic reasoning. Otherwise, we could say the same thing about wild animals in our own world who choose not to attack in given situations.
But to look at an iron chair and conclude, "That's a symbol of the reckless ambition that truly killed my mother!" and then incinerate the symbol is a ridiculous thing to have a dragon in this story's universe do.
I also believe Winds of Winter was probably among the best episodes they ever did. Yes it was beyond the books, but all the emotional setup to that episode was done by entire character arcs built up over time. S6 started in a set place established by the books and those 10 episodes carried those stories forward at a slightly accelerate pace from what we were all accustomed to (jon not dead, cersei trial, dany struggle against the masters + winning over the dothraki again). But everything that happened in that final was earned over years - not some random spontaneous decision. Cersei + revenge + wildfire has been at her core since S1. The reunion of the North around Jon (and his lineage reveal). The masters overplaying their hand and underestimating Dany. Etc.
Excellent points.
Cersei's actions in Winds of Winter are analogous to Dany's in The Bells, albeit on a smaller level. However, like you said, there were seasons of buildup to these actions on Cersei's part that made them neither a surprise nor out of character. Despite the writers' and some viewers' efforts to align Dany's actions in The Bells with things like the burning of Astapor's masters or the Tarlys, these things aren't in the same ballpark or even the same damn sport. There was no buildup to Dany's actions. That's just bad writing. While Dany was a multi-faceted character capable of good and bad deeds, she wasn't a murderer of innocent women and children. Don't have a character be something for 71 episodes, then something else for eps 72 and 73.
How do they even know Jon killed Dany? Why show that scene that isn't something the people would like to see! They cut away from so many moments to leave you wanting to know like when Bran told Sansa and Arya about Jon. So what he admitted it to Greyworm and Greyworm was like ok let me lock you up after I am just killing people in the street I am not going to try and kill you.
Power hungry Sansa and the north won't even bow down to the a Stark king? Really everyone is cool with that? Sure fine the North won't want a Stark king of course not they want a Stark Queen instead. I mean come on that is stupid. I could see that if they made like Gendry King, but they put a northmen on throne.
Jon went from the most important part of the whole start of Fire and Ice to basically a nothing the whole show in the end. He didn't do much in the battle, let Greyworm just kill those men who gave up, and killed Dany and then went and sat down in a jail cell before being banished north. This is so dumb. They just ruined characters in this show as soon as they passed the source materials. Think about it Dany turns into Mad Queen and brutal while not listening to anyone, Jon is useless and banished away, Bran who barely even talks for how many seasons is not the 3ER and King, Tyrion they turned into the stupidest man alive getting out smarted and fulled by everyone, Arya becomes a faceless men to take out the Freys, I mean I could go on and on with this crap.
Ruined the whole show and if this is how the books are I won't even read them if they ever come out. Actually if I am GRRM I am happy that HBO blew the ending so bad because he books would have to be 10 times better.
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
lol
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Cite your sources.
link - ( New Window )
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Tyrion: You don’t want to be lord of Winterfell?
Bran: I don’t “want” anymore.
...
Tyrion: You want to be King of the whole shit?
Bran: Shiiiit what you think I wheeled over here for my G! Where the Throne at?
Cite your sources. link - ( New Window )
LOL
Bran isn't a Stark?
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Of building up Jons history, and his true identity...then no one cared to mention it when they are picking a new leader. No one thought of him as an option. Hes the actual King, or should be. I would have been ok if they had offered it and he turned it down, but why didnt someone at least mention it?
If you buy the idea that a societal change away from a basically Feudal system had to be initiated, Jon/Aegon could not possibly have become King. That would be perpetuating the old, failed system and is the antithesis of social change.
The only prediction I got right was houses, lineages, claims to the thrones, etc wouldn't matter much in the end. Didn't know how it would go down but it looked obvious that squabbling over who's got the most Targaryen or Baratheon, or whoevers blood would be relatively pointless.
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
Ending season seemed very rushed.
Many mentioned the Sopranos, I thought about the last episode of MASH as well - "Goodbye, farewell and Amen.
That series should have been put out to pasture long before they pulled the plug - Hot Lips was starting to look like a granny, not a young hot nurse.
Imagine if Twitter existed and had hundreds of millions of users when Mash, or The Sopranos, or any other major show was wrapping up and commenting in real time for every episode.
Also, those shows had much smaller universes to deal with and are really bout a main character or small group of characters in a localized setting.
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In comment 14449868 Amtoft said:
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Bran as King? Really Bran who isn't even a stark and can't be head of Winterfell
Bran isn't a Stark?
That is what Bran has basically said. It is so stupid. Can't be lord of Winterfell, but King sure why not.
He didn't say he couldn't be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want to be Lord of Winterfell. He said he didn't want much of anything any more.
But why does that prevent him from being aware, or acting with the motivation to ultimately end up on the iron throne after the battle against The Night King and Dany going south?
Why do you assume that everyone else is capable of lying, or of acting in their own interest, and Bran/Three-Eyed Raven isn't?
Agreed - this and the poorly written Dany turn are my 2 core plot complaints this final season.
Also re: your last post about the poor Dany turn, I thought this episode made it seem even sillier since they seemed to write her to be completely delusional about what happened/what she did. After last week those defending it as within her character had a variety of reasons for doing so - "she's always been ruthless", "she was jealous of jon", "she went mad", and it clearly seems like they predominantly went through door #3. But they wrote her so heavy handed mad this past episode thinking that those in KL were intentionally allied with Cersei. Literally the episode prior to the battle of KL they had conversations about how Cersei was doing that intentionally at the expense of her people and a couple episodes she's completely delusional believing that the people of KL chose Cersei.
He warged into the ravens. As soon as he warged, it cut to the ravens flying north to The Night King. He was getting TNK's attention (since he is marked) to draw him to the weirwood such that Arya could kill him.