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LeCharles Bentley analyzes the Giants Offensive Line

Ira : 5/20/2019 7:44 am
First, thanks to Defenderdawg for including this article in his Monday Reading. I've started a separate thread, because it's a very interesting article about a very important topic and I think you'll enjoy reading it through. Bentley comments on each player and the line as a whole. I found his analysis interesting and informative.
O-Line guru: Giants trio can restore unit’s glory days - ( New Window )
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The stuff they said about Halapio  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/20/2019 10:22 am : link
is by no way a ringing endorsement. He basically said he's earned everything he has, and now because he's in between 2 legit guards he should be top 5.

Wheeler could have improved but I doubt it. Remmers will start if he is healthy enough. We would love to see Wheeler take a bigger leap, but the chances are slim.
Your guarantees suck..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 10:30 am : link
as much as your "sorry but it's true" bullshit.

Evidence:
- Brady's YPA have remained eerily constant in his career. Right around 7.5 for his career. In fact, his YPA has trended upward in recent years, not downward

- The percentages of time he has been under center vs in the shotgun has remained constant throughout his career, never deviating more than 5% in a single season. That's consistency.

-But what has also remained consistent is that the % of passes thrown under 10 yards, between 11-20, from 21-30 and 31+ hasn't changed in any particular year by a deviation of more than 7%. He actually has thrown a higher % on 31+ yard passes in the last two years than he did early in his career, but the % change is only 4% higher

Perhaps you can share evidence of the "sorry but it's true" mantra.
I am looking forward to seeing the offensive line this season  
Jay on the Island : 5/20/2019 10:45 am : link
Halapio is receiving praise from quite a few sources which is encouraging especially since some are not tied to the team. I am not a fan of Pulley but I am excited about the potential of Evan Brown and James O'Hagan. If Pulley hasn't gotten significantly stronger this offseason then I would love to see both of those two make the team over him.

As for Wheeler, he has only been in the NFL for two years. When he was signed he needed to get stronger. Now with his second full offseason with the team he could be ready to take the next step next season. That would go a long way towards stabilizing the future of the offensive line if he could lock down the RT spot. Hernandez, Halapio, and Wheeler all could be the answer for the next 4-5 years. Wheeler and Hernandez obviously longer than that. Then hopefully at least one out of Asafo-Adjei, Evan Brown, James O'Hagan, Paul Adams, Nick Gates, and Austin Droogsma surprise.
FMIC is absolutely correct here  
Jay on the Island : 5/20/2019 10:47 am : link
The Patriots have never been a vertical offensive team.
RE: Your guarantees suck..  
Britt in VA : 5/20/2019 11:05 am : link
In comment 14449687 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
as much as your "sorry but it's true" bullshit.

Evidence:
- Brady's YPA have remained eerily constant in his career. Right around 7.5 for his career. In fact, his YPA has trended upward in recent years, not downward

- The percentages of time he has been under center vs in the shotgun has remained constant throughout his career, never deviating more than 5% in a single season. That's consistency.

-But what has also remained consistent is that the % of passes thrown under 10 yards, between 11-20, from 21-30 and 31+ hasn't changed in any particular year by a deviation of more than 7%. He actually has thrown a higher % on 31+ yard passes in the last two years than he did early in his career, but the % change is only 4% higher

Perhaps you can share evidence of the "sorry but it's true" mantra.


snap
Even the Pats..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 11:12 am : link
personnel has remained very similar.

Swap out Gronk or Hernandez

Have a Welker/Edelman/Amendola type in the slot

Have a White/Vereen/Lewis RB

They've brought in aging WR's like Moss or Ochocinco as vertical threats, but never insane fast guys.

The hallmark of that offense has been spreading the defense out so that underneath routes can win their 1-on-1 matchups with space to get YAC. Is there even anything to show that the Pats have changed much on O??
Wr screen, slant, dump to RB  
PEEJ : 5/20/2019 11:12 am : link
TE up the seam
Halapio  
GothamGiants : 5/20/2019 11:19 am : link
sounds like a Giants type to me

“Naturally thick ... Can drive block and is effective when he has an angle ... Functional anchor... Has a warrior’s mentality -- played through an 80 percent tear of his pectoral as a senior... Highly respected team captain.”

More of a “hog molly mauler” with limited movement skills - which i think will pair quite nicely with Zeitler - 1 of the best pass blockers in the league

I doubt he ends up a top 5 Center - but I don’t think it’s as big a hole as some think
Halapio - ( New Window )
Once Talked to Bart Oates  
Samiam : 5/20/2019 12:12 pm : link
Went to my gym. I asked him if we could tell by watching tv who is messing up on the OL . He said you cannot tell because you don’t know what the blocking play call is. It’s much more comfortable than what we see on tv .

Aside from that, how can anyone here offer an informed opinion on Halapio as a center? He played 1 1/2 games at center plus some exhibition time. And he played next to a bad RG and a rookie at LG. He may have been a journeyman at guard but that doesn’t necessarily translate to center. I have a question for the old timers. Didn’t the Giants have a guard they converted to center in the 80s or 90s and he was very good but had a career ending injury. I think it was Kevin something.
I just want to know  
capone : 5/20/2019 12:16 pm : link
Which one of these guys who he gave accolades to uses his service and facility?
RE: Once Talked to Bart Oates  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/20/2019 12:41 pm : link
In comment 14449828 Samiam said:
Quote:
Went to my gym. I asked him if we could tell by watching tv who is messing up on the OL . He said you cannot tell because you don’t know what the blocking play call is. It’s much more comfortable than what we see on tv .

Aside from that, how can anyone here offer an informed opinion on Halapio as a center? He played 1 1/2 games at center plus some exhibition time. And he played next to a bad RG and a rookie at LG. He may have been a journeyman at guard but that doesn’t necessarily translate to center. I have a question for the old timers. Didn’t the Giants have a guard they converted to center in the 80s or 90s and he was very good but had a career ending injury. I think it was Kevin something.


Don't know if he was a conversion project from OG but Kevin Belcher, a UDFA or low round draft pick was on his way to being a stud OC when a knee injury wrecked his career. Howard Livingston, editor of The Giants Insider, was very positive on Belcher.
.  
arcarsenal : 5/20/2019 12:44 pm : link
I've defended Pio a bit - not because I think he'll be great, but because I think people have been totally dismissing him too soon based on his play in other spots on the OL.

Both Gettleman and Shurmur really like him @ OC - I don't know if they'll wind up being right on that, but Pat Shurmur played the position and Gettleman has a pretty good eye for linemen.

I think the two of them probably have sound reasons for liking him and having faith in him to anchor the line.

I'm not expecting an all pro player here, but I think between Hernandez and Zeitler, he'll be totally fine. He might actually be pretty solid.
Blue Lou  
Samiam : 5/20/2019 12:49 pm : link
Thanks. Belcher was the guy. I’m pretty sure he was a conversion, had been a meh guard but played really well at center before the injury. There’s another conversion to center. Adam Koets was drafted as a tackle in the 2007 draft; he was the only player in that draft who contributed nothing. He was injured for a few years while they were trying him out at center. I think he played a game or 2 and looked really good and then got hurt career ending. Hope Halapio can stay healthy
lono has been higher on Wheeler than many here,  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/20/2019 12:55 pm : link
and he's very good tracking OL play. I focused on Wheeler yesterday while watching SB's 2018 highlights reel, and obviously from a plus biased set of data Wheeler looks OK on many plays.

But clearly he lacks lower body anchoring strength, and gets rocked backwards by his opponents' first engagement consistently. He also gets outquicked right off the ball, and I caught him overshooting a reach block to his outside shoulder and getting beat cleanly inside.

But his form looks OK, he bends at his knees, and has long arms that he extends well. He's at his best on the second level when he gets his mitts on someone smaller than him, an LB or DB. He actually had at least one pancake on an LB.

He really needed more strength, badly, which is common for the vast majority of OL as they transition from college to the NFL, especially late round and UDFA guys.

Of course, that was a sample of his better plays for the most part.
Koets was converted from OT to OG,  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/20/2019 1:03 pm : link
and he must have looked good in practice cause it was clear TC was predicting he would flat out displace O'Hara who was undersized and had trouble with big NTs.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.

West coaster...
Eli sucks  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 5/20/2019 1:07 pm : link
You don't need a good ol to be a good qb. Trade Rosen for a 1st, he's very good but had a terrible ol. -bbi
Perspective  
SLIM_ : 5/20/2019 1:13 pm : link
Bentley's comments …

- Weird that he thinks Halapio is the future but not Zeitler. Zeitler is only a year older but seems much healthier.

- It would be interesting to see if any of these guys has been working with Bentley. I believe his camp was invitation only so a good sign if he invited them. (He did invite Jerry a couple of years ago but I"m on record saying Jerry got a much worse knock on him then deserved. He would've been an ok 5th starter - problem was in most seasons here, he was 2nd or 3rd.)

Regardless,there is optimism...

- The line looked serviceable when Brown and Pulley were inserted into the lineup. Zeitler is much better than Brown and Pulley is expected to be a backup.

- This will be year 2 in the system for most. Solder/Hernandez seemed to start playing better about the time Brown/Pulley started. My thoughts are that it was a combination of both. Remmers wasn't here last year but does have familiarity with Shurmur's offense.

- Most think Wheeler has better attributes for LT than RT. I expect Remmers to beat out Wheeler but Wheeler got good experience last year and may be a very good swing tackle.

- Just the professionalism alone of these guys should be a huge improvement over shitheads like Flowers and Hart.
RE: Koets was converted from OT to OG,  
Klaatu : 5/20/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14449908 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
and he must have looked good in practice cause it was clear TC was predicting he would flat out displace O'Hara who was undersized and had trouble with big NTs.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.

West coaster...


Koets had a knee injury he never fully recovered from, even after surgery. He also had back trouble. Went on IR, never came back.
The key for this OL is staying healthy  
SGMen : 5/20/2019 1:38 pm : link
Stick together through training camp, develop rhythym, and run the damn ball well right out of the gates vs Dallas.

If Hilapio develops well that would be outstanding! I think RT Remmers beast out Wheeler and Chad becomes the swing tackle.

Run, Run, pass effectively. No turnovers. Go deep to keep safeties honest: C. Coleman, E. Engram and rookie slayer can do that for us.
If Wheeler just added  
Bill in UT : 5/20/2019 1:42 pm : link
25 lbs of muscle, let's hope he doesn't get drug tested
Believe me..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/20/2019 1:44 pm : link
none of the linemen want to get drug tested.

And fortunately, the league is pretty fine with that.
RE: Koets was converted from OT to OG,  
Jay on the Island : 5/20/2019 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14449908 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
and he must have looked good in practice cause it was clear TC was predicting he would flat out displace O'Hara who was undersized and had trouble with big NTs.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.

West coaster...

Koets was moved from tackle to guard finally to center. During his fourth season he rewarded the Giants patience briefly. He played very well at center and was given a 2 year extension. Literally a week or two later he tore his ACL and never made it back. The Giants reportedly were high on him and they were grooming him to be O'Hara's future replacement.
Was super tough to judge  
gmen9892 : 5/20/2019 2:13 pm : link
Halapio last year due to the shitshow he had on both sides in the first two games of the season before he went down. A rookie LG and Omamhe who will no longer be a starter anywhere in the NFL this year says it all.

Throw in the fact that it was his first year, and I am throwing last year out. I think the battle between Pio and Pulley will be exciting to watch to see which one sticks.

I don't necessarily think either has a leg up on the other at this point with Pulley signing back here for 3 years. The Giants clearly liked what he showed down the stretch.

As for Wheeler, just glad that the Giants have a viable Plan B in place this year. Give Wheeler a shot to earn the spot, and if he doesn't show progress, you go with the vet in Remmers. Remmers reminds me of the Locklear signing a couple years back. He will most likely end up starting a few games and has the ability to play both tackle spots (same with Wheeler).

Next year, they draft an OT high in the draft that will start on the Right side if Wheeler fails. Said OT will eventually take over for Solder on the left. That is my perfect scenario to cap this rebuilt offensive line.
Halapio  
AcesUp : 5/20/2019 2:27 pm : link
Everybody internally has gone out of their way to praise him and the support has been met by their personnel decisions. There have been a few like Bentley that have praised him. In his short window starting, he looked solid in the broadcast, those reviewing the broadcast have given him solid marks and even the fan services that grade players have given him good grades. That is a small sample size but gives some credibility to how the coaching staff and front office feels.

Now in terms of relying on him 100%? I agree that would be foolish, but they hedged by signing Pulley to a short term deal for low end starter money. Pulley isn't a rock star but he isn't awful, he's a capable lineman that would be starting on a handful of teams and be a top 7 lineman on most teams. I'm fine with their approach there, if Halapio flames out and Pulley doesn't progress (he's only entering his 4th year), then it will be a position that requires a bigger commitment next year.
Which of these guys are/are not  
DonQuixote : 5/20/2019 2:31 pm : link
Paying customers of Bentley’s OL camp?
some more good news  
Paulie Walnuts : 5/20/2019 2:47 pm : link
is that 4 of these guys played with each other before and Zeitler is a fantastic add that will Wheeler.
I always knew we we were ready to make a run in the old days when the same good 5 on the OL had played together for a few seasons, that they become a solid unit and a foundation of everything you want to do on offense
RE: Which of these guys are/are not  
AcesUp : 5/20/2019 2:55 pm : link
In comment 14450047 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
Paying customers of Bentley’s OL camp?


That is relevant info that needs to be accounted for. Bentley has a vested interest in a lot of the lineman in the NFL. He was talking up Richburg as the best C in football a few years back.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 5/20/2019 3:43 pm : link
1) Drug testing isn't a problem. The NFL allows for obscene amounts of testosterone that are basically impossible to reach naturally. Anybody getting caught for steroids went above and beyond "normal" cycling and deserves what they get.

2) My first thought was this is nice and all, but let's see it on the field.

3) My next thought was whether Halpio and/or Wheeler were attendees of his OL camp (Wheeler more so than Halapio).

4) Hernandez makes sense. Halapio, we have seen mixed opinions, but I don't recall seeing potential for top 5 in the league at OC. Wheeler, I honestly thought he was a steal as an UDFA 2 years ago. I really thought he was going to pan out. But, he hasn't shown enough flashes of his potential to date. It would be nice if he takes that step forward.
RE: RE: I guaranteed you Brady....  
bw in dc : 5/20/2019 3:58 pm : link
In comment 14449647 rich in DC said:
Quote:

Obviously, you have not paid attention to the Patriots in recent years. Their OL has been a disaster- between season ending injuries forcing untested players into action and exposing extreme lack of depth.

In spite of the poor OL play, Brady has succeeded.

Sorry if that hurts your Eli is the victim narrative, but its true.


Great post. One of the reasons Scarnecchia was brought back was because their very mediocre OL was destroyed in the 2015 AFC CG at Denver. DeGuglielmo wasn't able to make to make chicken salad like Scarnecchia.

The talent has improved, but to suggest Brady has been playing behind OLs like any of the vintage Dallas OLs is beyond laughable.
We’ll see  
WillVAB : 5/20/2019 4:18 pm : link
If guys like Halapio and Remmers shoot rainbows out of their asses when the real bullets fly like people here seem to believe, the Giants OL will be pretty good.
It's May.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/20/2019 4:20 pm : link
Across the league, coaches and players are reciting the same script.

____ has put on 20 pounds of muscle
____ looks like his ____ is stronger
____ is in the best shape of his career
____ looks good


Find me the coach that says a player isn't looking good in may. That's what would be news
basically, yeah  
Greg from LI : 5/20/2019 4:22 pm : link
Everyone is a budding star in May.
RE: basically, yeah  
Ira : 5/20/2019 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14450192 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Everyone is a budding star in May.


Very true. It's like that every year around this time.
RE: Perspective  
wonderback : 5/20/2019 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14449927 SLIM_ said:
Quote:
Bentley's comments …

- Weird that he thinks Halapio is the future but not Zeitler. Zeitler is only a year older but seems much healthier.

- It would be interesting to see if any of these guys has been working with Bentley. I believe his camp was invitation only so a good sign if he invited them. (He did invite Jerry a couple of years ago but I"m on record saying Jerry got a much worse knock on him then deserved. He would've been an ok 5th starter - problem was in most seasons here, he was 2nd or 3rd.)

Regardless,there is optimism...

- The line looked serviceable when Brown and Pulley were inserted into the lineup. Zeitler is much better than Brown and Pulley is expected to be a backup.

- This will be year 2 in the system for most. Solder/Hernandez seemed to start playing better about the time Brown/Pulley started. My thoughts are that it was a combination of both. Remmers wasn't here last year but does have familiarity with Shurmur's offense.

- Most think Wheeler has better attributes for LT than RT. I expect Remmers to beat out Wheeler but Wheeler got good experience last year and may be a very good swing tackle.

- Just the professionalism alone of these guys should be a huge improvement over shitheads like Flowers and Hart.


Once more, John Jerry sucked. It can't be said enough. I watched the guy a ton. Don't know what the hell Bentley is talking about. I don't believe the guy is in football anymore.
RE: RE: Halapio will be 28 years old next season  
Vanzetti : 5/20/2019 4:46 pm : link
In comment 14449613 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14449579 Greg from LI said:


Quote:


and he has appeared in a grand total of 12 NFL games. The fact that the Giants seem content to simply pencil him in as their starter seems astonishingly reckless no matter how highly they might think of him.

Why? First of all, they re-signed Pulley as an experienced backup; second of all, how much does Shurmur and Hunter have to see of the guy before they form an opinion on his talent, ability, and character? This isn't me and you gauging Halapio, it's people with experience at evaluating talent. And their jobs are on their line. I seriously doubt they are being "astonishingly reckless".


Halapio looked fairly awful in the two games he played. I know claims have been made about his grading out fairly well. But he looked bad in real time.
Wheeler  
Marty866b : 5/20/2019 4:46 pm : link
As I have stated many times before, Chad is a left tackle. He came to USC as a 265 pound defensive lineman and was moved to play left offensive tackle where he started for three years. He NEVER played one down at right tackle in college so he was unfamiliar with the footwork on the right side. Wheeler's biggest problem is size and strength. He has been working hard to get bigger and stronger. Will that be enough? You can get bigger and stronger but one thing that Wheeler does have is left tackle feet. That you either have or you don't.
Did John Jerry  
XBRONX : 5/20/2019 5:30 pm : link
ever get a refund from Bentley's school?
I've always thought of him as a  
wonderback : 5/20/2019 5:34 pm : link
One legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
My analysis of LeC B's analysis  
Marty in Albany : 5/20/2019 7:25 pm : link
Quote:
“Now you’re getting back to the culture days when you had Shaun O’Hara and David Diehl, where you don’t have great athletes or great football players but you have a great identity, and that allows good football players to look great in that system. That’s what you have in this room right now.’’

So good athletes can look great if they play together in a system. But will they play together? Our LT, RT, and C are rehabbing. How much opportunity do these good athletes have to practice together as a line? Not as much as LeC B or I would like.

Be patient. We're still building a team.
....  
Karl Hungus : 5/21/2019 6:32 am : link
RE: If Wheeler just added  
Eman11 : 5/21/2019 7:13 am : link
In comment 14449976 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
25 lbs of muscle, let's hope he doesn't get drug tested


Haha. That was my first thought as well.

I know he's a big guy, and a pro athlete with access to physical trainers, dietitians etc but adding 25 lbs of muscle in one offseason is virtually impossible to do without some type of PED's.

RE: RE: RE: I guaranteed you Brady....  
Britt in VA : 5/21/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14450129 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14449647 rich in DC said:


Quote:



Obviously, you have not paid attention to the Patriots in recent years. Their OL has been a disaster- between season ending injuries forcing untested players into action and exposing extreme lack of depth.

In spite of the poor OL play, Brady has succeeded.

Sorry if that hurts your Eli is the victim narrative, but its true.



Great post. One of the reasons Scarnecchia was brought back was because their very mediocre OL was destroyed in the 2015 AFC CG at Denver. DeGuglielmo wasn't able to make to make chicken salad like Scarnecchia.

The talent has improved, but to suggest Brady has been playing behind OLs like any of the vintage Dallas OLs is beyond laughable.


Nobody suggested that. What was said is that Brady has not had to play behind a line as poor as the one Eli has played behind the past couple of years.

Nate Solder, our now starting LT, was his blindside protector. Erik Flowers was Eli's.

That alone is enough to back up the statement.
Actually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 8:48 am : link
what was suggested was that Brady changed his style of play to adapt to a poor OL and that the offensive scheme changed from a vertical one to a horizontal one.

I'm still waiting for evidence to show that. Especially since the pithy "sorry, but it is true" just doesn't fucking cut it.
I think both occurred.  
Britt in VA : 5/21/2019 8:56 am : link
.
RE: ....  
Greg from LI : 5/21/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14450636 Karl Hungus said:
Quote:


Hai!
RE: Wheeler  
Giantz_comeback : 5/21/2019 9:05 am : link
In comment 14450231 Marty866b said:
Quote:
As I have stated many times before, Chad is a left tackle. He came to USC as a 265 pound defensive lineman and was moved to play left offensive tackle where he started for three years. He NEVER played one down at right tackle in college so he was unfamiliar with the footwork on the right side. Wheeler's biggest problem is size and strength. He has been working hard to get bigger and stronger. Will that be enough? You can get bigger and stronger but one thing that Wheeler does have is left tackle feet. That you either have or you don't.


Yes he does. Wheeler is kind of like Beatty. If you put Beatty at RT he wouldn't do to well. Now can he get bigger stronger to play RT well? Remains to be seen .
There isn't as much difference between the left tackle and right  
Ira : 5/21/2019 9:10 am : link
tackle positions as there used to be on the offensive line. Defenses often have quick pass rushers on both sides. Also, some defenses have their pass rushers switch sides or move to various positions on the line depending on the circumstance.
RE: There isn't as much difference between the left tackle and right  
Britt in VA : 5/21/2019 9:12 am : link
In comment 14450752 Ira said:
Quote:
tackle positions as there used to be on the offensive line. Defenses often have quick pass rushers on both sides. Also, some defenses have their pass rushers switch sides or move to various positions on the line depending on the circumstance.


QB still has a blindside.
I'm just glad..  
Nolan64 : 5/21/2019 9:12 am : link
for a positive write-up after the shitstorm of criticism the Post sports writers hit the Giants with after the draft til now.
RE: RE: There isn't as much difference between the left tackle and right  
GothamGiants : 5/21/2019 9:29 am : link
In comment 14450753 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14450752 Ira said:


Quote:


tackle positions as there used to be on the offensive line. Defenses often have quick pass rushers on both sides. Also, some defenses have their pass rushers switch sides or move to various positions on the line depending on the circumstance.



QB still has a blindside.


Good thing we have a QB who can do this now
Jones - ( New Window )
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