First, thanks to Defenderdawg for including this article in his Monday Reading. I've started a separate thread, because it's a very interesting article about a very important topic and I think you'll enjoy reading it through. Bentley comments on each player and the line as a whole. I found his analysis interesting and informative.
O-Line guru: Giants trio can restore unit’s glory days - (
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so I have to like it when a former OL guy gives this write-up:
“When you watch his film and you watch him play, this dude is a football player, period. Now, he doesn’t have the pedigree everyone loves to talk about but not everybody in this league is going to be one of those 4 percenters that has the pedigree. He’s the type of person you want to do well because he’s had to fight for every single thing throughout his career. I thought last year if he had stayed healthy he would have finished as one of the top five centers in the league in terms of performance. With Hernandez, with Zeitler next to him, that dude, end of the year, if he’s healthy, he will be a top-five center in the National Football League.’’
so I have to like it when a former OL guy gives this write-up:
Quote:
Halapio
“When you watch his film and you watch him play, this dude is a football player, period. Now, he doesn’t have the pedigree everyone loves to talk about but not everybody in this league is going to be one of those 4 percenters that has the pedigree. He’s the type of person you want to do well because he’s had to fight for every single thing throughout his career. I thought last year if he had stayed healthy he would have finished as one of the top five centers in the league in terms of performance. With Hernandez, with Zeitler next to him, that dude, end of the year, if he’s healthy, he will be a top-five center in the National Football League.’’
He’s definitely entitled to his opinion as a former player who runs his offseason OL camp. Wasn’t he also talking up John Jerry a few years back? I think Halapio is average at best and someone the organization should look to upgrade from next spring.
Also his comment on Brady making his linemen better is the exact counter pt to those who seem to be in denial about Eli’s role in the poor performances of the past several years.
that RT competition in camp will be something to watch now
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Halapio is brought up, he has such polarizing takes. You have some who think he's terrible.
so I have to like it when a former OL guy gives this write-up:
Quote:
Halapio
“When you watch his film and you watch him play, this dude is a football player, period. Now, he doesn’t have the pedigree everyone loves to talk about but not everybody in this league is going to be one of those 4 percenters that has the pedigree. He’s the type of person you want to do well because he’s had to fight for every single thing throughout his career. I thought last year if he had stayed healthy he would have finished as one of the top five centers in the league in terms of performance. With Hernandez, with Zeitler next to him, that dude, end of the year, if he’s healthy, he will be a top-five center in the National Football League.’’
He’s definitely entitled to his opinion as a former player who runs his offseason OL camp. Wasn’t he also talking up John Jerry a few years back? I think Halapio is average at best and someone the organization should look to upgrade from next spring.
Jerry had all of the tools to be a good OL. Bentley can only see their outside skills. He probably isn't in a good position to know what makes that player tick or how much they want it.
Hernandez and Zeitler, 1 of the best G tandems in the league, should help whoever is at C.
RT was, and still continues to be, my primary concern. If Remmers returns to form (at tackle), this OL is going to be good.
In addition to Jerry, Bentley used to rave about Geoff Schwartz when he was in Bentley's training program. That didn't exactly work out well.
There's been an avalanche of happy talk optimism about how all these guys the Giants have are going to improve, but until we see something happening on the field in real games, it's all just talk. We'll find out the truth soon enough.
I am one who feels Wheeler best position is LT.....curious to see how it goes.
You can defend Eli to the end if you want, but the poster is not wrong. Brady has changed the way he plays to adapt to the way defense in the NFL has changed. Eli hasn't.
Now, that isn't to say that it is all Eli's fault. The offensive game plans have been lacking for a number of years. The Patriots have not given Brady much in the way of OL for years- but the game plan is superior to what the Giants put together.
Nevertheless the point remains that the Giants have significantly upgraded their OL and RB positions. They did trade away a true #1 WR- but have n ice #2-#4 WR, and maybe a #1 emerges. The receiving TE appears to be an emerging strength.
At this point, the rest is up to Eli. Jones should do everything he can to learn from Eli, but if the Giants were wise, they would give him some Brady tape to study- and in fact, I would give the Giants offensive brain trust tapes of Brady to watch and learn how to put together a viable game plan.
so I have to like it when a former OL guy gives this write-up:
Quote:
Halapio
“When you watch his film and you watch him play, this dude is a football player, period. Now, he doesn’t have the pedigree everyone loves to talk about but not everybody in this league is going to be one of those 4 percenters that has the pedigree. He’s the type of person you want to do well because he’s had to fight for every single thing throughout his career. I thought last year if he had stayed healthy he would have finished as one of the top five centers in the league in terms of performance. With Hernandez, with Zeitler next to him, that dude, end of the year, if he’s healthy, he will be a top-five center in the National Football League.’’
That's more or less what Shurmur said about him, as well. That as a former center himself he can recognize some of those types of characteristics.
2. It's a shame that he got hurt so early, because we never got to see if he would improve as the season progressed. Bentley seems to believe that he would have...which is nice.
As for Wheeler, I don't have much faith in him at all. Maybe he'll surprise me, but I doubt it. Still, he's got another year to try, so good luck to him.
Add in recovery time for Solder and this could actually look like a bit of a shit-show at times...
As example, take Remmers career path. Most of these guys at the end of year 2 are bubble players on a roster, or hoping that their agent can find them a landing spot on a PS.
One of his biggest issues has been play strength. He just hasn't been strong enough. But when it comes to knowing his assignments and his effort in executing them, he's been doing much better.
The guy gained about 15 lbs this offseason. We'll see how it translates on the field, but if his play strength continues to improve - we might have a solid option here.
But, of course, they didn’t do that they signed Pulley to provide competition at least if not a chance to win the starting job. So there’s that.
Kind of sensitive there fella. Wasn’t my intent to take dig at Eli. Was thinking more along the lines of why taking a quarterback at 6 was the right Thing to do.
But whatever
"No guts, no glory." - Dave Gettleman.
Remember Flowers and Hart.
...these individuals "by comparison" look like a wall of granite.
Brady has been blessed with one of the best OL coaches....
Brady looked like shit when being scrapped off the ground on every play
I read the article this morning and I was completely stunned by his positive take on Wheeler. Hope he is right. Glad Remmers is here to establish a floor on RT performance.
Remember Flowers and Hart.
...these individuals "by comparison" look like a wall of granite.
Brady has been blessed with one of the best OL coaches....
Brady looked like shit when being scrapped off the ground on every play
Thank you. Anyone complaining about this OL needs to go back and watch Hart/Flowers
Worst tandem I’ve ever seen
No, it isn't. Do you seriously think Brady has no voice in the game plan? After the knee injury, he realized he could not continue to sit back in the pocket and wait for his receivers to run deep routes and get open.
He and the coordinators (and likely Belichek) cam up with a new plan- horizontal patterns that were shorter and faster developing. The change was the he had to get the ball out fast and accurately as opposed to letting his receivers get open. He would be throwing to a spot where his receiver would be, depending on the pre-snap read.
That was a major shift in offensive philosophy for the team. Gone was the Randy Moss vertical offense and in was the slot guy in a footrace across the field to get the ball at full speed and in an open spot.
Sorry if you don't agree, but its true.
Obviously, you have not paid attention to the Patriots in recent years. Their OL has been a disaster- between season ending injuries forcing untested players into action and exposing extreme lack of depth.
In spite of the poor OL play, Brady has succeeded.
Sorry if that hurts your Eli is the victim narrative, but its true.
I wouldn’t pretend to know and I doubt you do either but we do know DG disagrees with you. BTW does this “better competition” have a name and was this better competition available to be brought in.
Well, he really is fighting to keep a roster spot as opposed to being a starter, so he had to do something.
The Patriots, even with Moss were not considered a vertical team. And as much as I abhor Fantasy Football's impact on fans, it was a significant reason that Brady was only slightly above average from a Fantasy standpoint.
He's always had slot receivers and receiving TE's with receiving backs to spread the ball around and get the ball out quickly. There's little that changed over the years from the philosophy standpoint, and I'm not even sure what bearing the knee injury had - he was the same player post-injury.
Saying something is true doesn't make it so, especially when the evidence doesn't support it.
The Patriots, even with Moss were not considered a vertical team. And as much as I abhor Fantasy Football's impact on fans, it was a significant reason that Brady was only slightly above average from a Fantasy standpoint.
He's always had slot receivers and receiving TE's with receiving backs to spread the ball around and get the ball out quickly. There's little that changed over the years from the philosophy standpoint, and I'm not even sure what bearing the knee injury had - he was the same player post-injury.
Saying something is true doesn't make it so, especially when the evidence doesn't support it.
You claim to be using evidence. Show it- because I guarantee you that you can't.
Also his comment on Brady making his linemen better is the exact counter pt to those who seem to be in denial about Eli’s role in the poor performances of the past several years.
The statement is a crock. After Solder's son got sick and he (understandably) didn't do well at all... and consequently neither did New England. They struggled until they hit their stride at the end of the year. Yeah, OL play matters, even for New England.
Wheeler could have improved but I doubt it. Remmers will start if he is healthy enough. We would love to see Wheeler take a bigger leap, but the chances are slim.
Evidence:
- Brady's YPA have remained eerily constant in his career. Right around 7.5 for his career. In fact, his YPA has trended upward in recent years, not downward
- The percentages of time he has been under center vs in the shotgun has remained constant throughout his career, never deviating more than 5% in a single season. That's consistency.
-But what has also remained consistent is that the % of passes thrown under 10 yards, between 11-20, from 21-30 and 31+ hasn't changed in any particular year by a deviation of more than 7%. He actually has thrown a higher % on 31+ yard passes in the last two years than he did early in his career, but the % change is only 4% higher
Perhaps you can share evidence of the "sorry but it's true" mantra.
As for Wheeler, he has only been in the NFL for two years. When he was signed he needed to get stronger. Now with his second full offseason with the team he could be ready to take the next step next season. That would go a long way towards stabilizing the future of the offensive line if he could lock down the RT spot. Hernandez, Halapio, and Wheeler all could be the answer for the next 4-5 years. Wheeler and Hernandez obviously longer than that. Then hopefully at least one out of Asafo-Adjei, Evan Brown, James O'Hagan, Paul Adams, Nick Gates, and Austin Droogsma surprise.
Evidence:
- Brady's YPA have remained eerily constant in his career. Right around 7.5 for his career. In fact, his YPA has trended upward in recent years, not downward
- The percentages of time he has been under center vs in the shotgun has remained constant throughout his career, never deviating more than 5% in a single season. That's consistency.
-But what has also remained consistent is that the % of passes thrown under 10 yards, between 11-20, from 21-30 and 31+ hasn't changed in any particular year by a deviation of more than 7%. He actually has thrown a higher % on 31+ yard passes in the last two years than he did early in his career, but the % change is only 4% higher
Perhaps you can share evidence of the "sorry but it's true" mantra.
snap
Swap out Gronk or Hernandez
Have a Welker/Edelman/Amendola type in the slot
Have a White/Vereen/Lewis RB
They've brought in aging WR's like Moss or Ochocinco as vertical threats, but never insane fast guys.
The hallmark of that offense has been spreading the defense out so that underneath routes can win their 1-on-1 matchups with space to get YAC. Is there even anything to show that the Pats have changed much on O??
“Naturally thick ... Can drive block and is effective when he has an angle ... Functional anchor... Has a warrior’s mentality -- played through an 80 percent tear of his pectoral as a senior... Highly respected team captain.”
More of a “hog molly mauler” with limited movement skills - which i think will pair quite nicely with Zeitler - 1 of the best pass blockers in the league
I doubt he ends up a top 5 Center - but I don’t think it’s as big a hole as some think
Halapio - ( New Window )
Aside from that, how can anyone here offer an informed opinion on Halapio as a center? He played 1 1/2 games at center plus some exhibition time. And he played next to a bad RG and a rookie at LG. He may have been a journeyman at guard but that doesn’t necessarily translate to center. I have a question for the old timers. Didn’t the Giants have a guard they converted to center in the 80s or 90s and he was very good but had a career ending injury. I think it was Kevin something.
Aside from that, how can anyone here offer an informed opinion on Halapio as a center? He played 1 1/2 games at center plus some exhibition time. And he played next to a bad RG and a rookie at LG. He may have been a journeyman at guard but that doesn’t necessarily translate to center. I have a question for the old timers. Didn’t the Giants have a guard they converted to center in the 80s or 90s and he was very good but had a career ending injury. I think it was Kevin something.
Don't know if he was a conversion project from OG but Kevin Belcher, a UDFA or low round draft pick was on his way to being a stud OC when a knee injury wrecked his career. Howard Livingston, editor of The Giants Insider, was very positive on Belcher.
Both Gettleman and Shurmur really like him @ OC - I don't know if they'll wind up being right on that, but Pat Shurmur played the position and Gettleman has a pretty good eye for linemen.
I think the two of them probably have sound reasons for liking him and having faith in him to anchor the line.
I'm not expecting an all pro player here, but I think between Hernandez and Zeitler, he'll be totally fine. He might actually be pretty solid.
But clearly he lacks lower body anchoring strength, and gets rocked backwards by his opponents' first engagement consistently. He also gets outquicked right off the ball, and I caught him overshooting a reach block to his outside shoulder and getting beat cleanly inside.
But his form looks OK, he bends at his knees, and has long arms that he extends well. He's at his best on the second level when he gets his mitts on someone smaller than him, an LB or DB. He actually had at least one pancake on an LB.
He really needed more strength, badly, which is common for the vast majority of OL as they transition from college to the NFL, especially late round and UDFA guys.
Of course, that was a sample of his better plays for the most part.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.
West coaster...
- Weird that he thinks Halapio is the future but not Zeitler. Zeitler is only a year older but seems much healthier.
- It would be interesting to see if any of these guys has been working with Bentley. I believe his camp was invitation only so a good sign if he invited them. (He did invite Jerry a couple of years ago but I"m on record saying Jerry got a much worse knock on him then deserved. He would've been an ok 5th starter - problem was in most seasons here, he was 2nd or 3rd.)
Regardless,there is optimism...
- The line looked serviceable when Brown and Pulley were inserted into the lineup. Zeitler is much better than Brown and Pulley is expected to be a backup.
- This will be year 2 in the system for most. Solder/Hernandez seemed to start playing better about the time Brown/Pulley started. My thoughts are that it was a combination of both. Remmers wasn't here last year but does have familiarity with Shurmur's offense.
- Most think Wheeler has better attributes for LT than RT. I expect Remmers to beat out Wheeler but Wheeler got good experience last year and may be a very good swing tackle.
- Just the professionalism alone of these guys should be a huge improvement over shitheads like Flowers and Hart.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.
West coaster...
Koets had a knee injury he never fully recovered from, even after surgery. He also had back trouble. Went on IR, never came back.
If Hilapio develops well that would be outstanding! I think RT Remmers beast out Wheeler and Chad becomes the swing tackle.
Run, Run, pass effectively. No turnovers. Go deep to keep safeties honest: C. Coleman, E. Engram and rookie slayer can do that for us.
And fortunately, the league is pretty fine with that.
Koets had a good game or 3 as a starter, but never fulfilled the promise TC and the OL coach predicted. He was actually rated a good bit higher than his draft slot because of lifestyle issues, IIRC. He was regarded as flaky with "weird" perhaps outside interests like surfing or something's like that.
West coaster...
Koets was moved from tackle to guard finally to center. During his fourth season he rewarded the Giants patience briefly. He played very well at center and was given a 2 year extension. Literally a week or two later he tore his ACL and never made it back. The Giants reportedly were high on him and they were grooming him to be O'Hara's future replacement.
Throw in the fact that it was his first year, and I am throwing last year out. I think the battle between Pio and Pulley will be exciting to watch to see which one sticks.
I don't necessarily think either has a leg up on the other at this point with Pulley signing back here for 3 years. The Giants clearly liked what he showed down the stretch.
As for Wheeler, just glad that the Giants have a viable Plan B in place this year. Give Wheeler a shot to earn the spot, and if he doesn't show progress, you go with the vet in Remmers. Remmers reminds me of the Locklear signing a couple years back. He will most likely end up starting a few games and has the ability to play both tackle spots (same with Wheeler).
Next year, they draft an OT high in the draft that will start on the Right side if Wheeler fails. Said OT will eventually take over for Solder on the left. That is my perfect scenario to cap this rebuilt offensive line.
Now in terms of relying on him 100%? I agree that would be foolish, but they hedged by signing Pulley to a short term deal for low end starter money. Pulley isn't a rock star but he isn't awful, he's a capable lineman that would be starting on a handful of teams and be a top 7 lineman on most teams. I'm fine with their approach there, if Halapio flames out and Pulley doesn't progress (he's only entering his 4th year), then it will be a position that requires a bigger commitment next year.
I always knew we we were ready to make a run in the old days when the same good 5 on the OL had played together for a few seasons, that they become a solid unit and a foundation of everything you want to do on offense
That is relevant info that needs to be accounted for. Bentley has a vested interest in a lot of the lineman in the NFL. He was talking up Richburg as the best C in football a few years back.
2) My first thought was this is nice and all, but let's see it on the field.
3) My next thought was whether Halpio and/or Wheeler were attendees of his OL camp (Wheeler more so than Halapio).
4) Hernandez makes sense. Halapio, we have seen mixed opinions, but I don't recall seeing potential for top 5 in the league at OC. Wheeler, I honestly thought he was a steal as an UDFA 2 years ago. I really thought he was going to pan out. But, he hasn't shown enough flashes of his potential to date. It would be nice if he takes that step forward.
Obviously, you have not paid attention to the Patriots in recent years. Their OL has been a disaster- between season ending injuries forcing untested players into action and exposing extreme lack of depth.
In spite of the poor OL play, Brady has succeeded.
Sorry if that hurts your Eli is the victim narrative, but its true.
Great post. One of the reasons Scarnecchia was brought back was because their very mediocre OL was destroyed in the 2015 AFC CG at Denver. DeGuglielmo wasn't able to make to make chicken salad like Scarnecchia.
The talent has improved, but to suggest Brady has been playing behind OLs like any of the vintage Dallas OLs is beyond laughable.
____ has put on 20 pounds of muscle
____ looks like his ____ is stronger
____ is in the best shape of his career
____ looks good
Find me the coach that says a player isn't looking good in may. That's what would be news
Very true. It's like that every year around this time.
- Weird that he thinks Halapio is the future but not Zeitler. Zeitler is only a year older but seems much healthier.
- It would be interesting to see if any of these guys has been working with Bentley. I believe his camp was invitation only so a good sign if he invited them. (He did invite Jerry a couple of years ago but I"m on record saying Jerry got a much worse knock on him then deserved. He would've been an ok 5th starter - problem was in most seasons here, he was 2nd or 3rd.)
Regardless,there is optimism...
- The line looked serviceable when Brown and Pulley were inserted into the lineup. Zeitler is much better than Brown and Pulley is expected to be a backup.
- This will be year 2 in the system for most. Solder/Hernandez seemed to start playing better about the time Brown/Pulley started. My thoughts are that it was a combination of both. Remmers wasn't here last year but does have familiarity with Shurmur's offense.
- Most think Wheeler has better attributes for LT than RT. I expect Remmers to beat out Wheeler but Wheeler got good experience last year and may be a very good swing tackle.
- Just the professionalism alone of these guys should be a huge improvement over shitheads like Flowers and Hart.
Once more, John Jerry sucked. It can't be said enough. I watched the guy a ton. Don't know what the hell Bentley is talking about. I don't believe the guy is in football anymore.
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and he has appeared in a grand total of 12 NFL games. The fact that the Giants seem content to simply pencil him in as their starter seems astonishingly reckless no matter how highly they might think of him.
Why? First of all, they re-signed Pulley as an experienced backup; second of all, how much does Shurmur and Hunter have to see of the guy before they form an opinion on his talent, ability, and character? This isn't me and you gauging Halapio, it's people with experience at evaluating talent. And their jobs are on their line. I seriously doubt they are being "astonishingly reckless".
Halapio looked fairly awful in the two games he played. I know claims have been made about his grading out fairly well. But he looked bad in real time.
So good athletes can look great if they play together in a system. But will they play together? Our LT, RT, and C are rehabbing. How much opportunity do these good athletes have to practice together as a line? Not as much as LeC B or I would like.
Be patient. We're still building a team.
Haha. That was my first thought as well.
I know he's a big guy, and a pro athlete with access to physical trainers, dietitians etc but adding 25 lbs of muscle in one offseason is virtually impossible to do without some type of PED's.
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Obviously, you have not paid attention to the Patriots in recent years. Their OL has been a disaster- between season ending injuries forcing untested players into action and exposing extreme lack of depth.
In spite of the poor OL play, Brady has succeeded.
Sorry if that hurts your Eli is the victim narrative, but its true.
Great post. One of the reasons Scarnecchia was brought back was because their very mediocre OL was destroyed in the 2015 AFC CG at Denver. DeGuglielmo wasn't able to make to make chicken salad like Scarnecchia.
The talent has improved, but to suggest Brady has been playing behind OLs like any of the vintage Dallas OLs is beyond laughable.
Nobody suggested that. What was said is that Brady has not had to play behind a line as poor as the one Eli has played behind the past couple of years.
Nate Solder, our now starting LT, was his blindside protector. Erik Flowers was Eli's.
That alone is enough to back up the statement.
I'm still waiting for evidence to show that. Especially since the pithy "sorry, but it is true" just doesn't fucking cut it.
Hai!
Yes he does. Wheeler is kind of like Beatty. If you put Beatty at RT he wouldn't do to well. Now can he get bigger stronger to play RT well? Remains to be seen .
QB still has a blindside.
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tackle positions as there used to be on the offensive line. Defenses often have quick pass rushers on both sides. Also, some defenses have their pass rushers switch sides or move to various positions on the line depending on the circumstance.
QB still has a blindside.
Good thing we have a QB who can do this now
Jones - ( New Window )