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Your most compelling argument why Eli is never enshrined.

Beezer : 5/21/2019 12:30 pm
Figured I'd come at it from a different angle. Granted, many of us have a bias, and believe he will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

But give me your best argument that shows specific reasons why Eli Manning would NOT ever receive induction at Canton.
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People have always made it seem like that Asante Samuel drop  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/22/2019 2:10 pm : link
was one that hit him in the hands as if he were the receiver.

I don't think that was a great throw. Eli has a history of missing high when he misses. But that wasn't an easy INT.
With this..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/22/2019 2:25 pm : link
seemingly very apparent:

Quote:
But that wasn't an easy INT.


My wonderment about that play is why do some continue to argue vehemently that it was an easy catch.

What is the motivation??

It isn't that hard. Clinging to terrible takes is rampant. KWALL has repeatedly referred to Eli as a game manager for the SB runs and even made the infamous parallel that Mark Sanchez played just as well. And then you have bw. Nuff said.
RE: With this..  
Thegratefulhead : 5/22/2019 2:36 pm : link
In comment 14452354 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
seemingly very apparent:



Quote:


But that wasn't an easy INT.



My wonderment about that play is why do some continue to argue vehemently that it was an easy catch.

What is the motivation??

It isn't that hard. Clinging to terrible takes is rampant. KWALL has repeatedly referred to Eli as a game manager for the SB runs and even made the infamous parallel that Mark Sanchez played just as well. And then you have bw. Nuff said.
I suspect the motivation might be to troll you. I remember how I felt watching those SBs, I cannot imagine any real Giant fan watching those games(and playoffs) and thinking, Eli is a game manager equivalent to Mark Sanchez. Preposterous.
RE: If Samuel catches that ball...  
bw in dc : 5/22/2019 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14452311 Chris684 said:
Quote:
The narrative is of course that Eli is sloppy with the football.

But do people care to acknowledge that Eli threw to a spot expecting Tyree to be there and Tyree simply wasn't? Eli was as demonstrative after that play as you'll ever see him.


That's been acknowledged above. Several times.
And to be clear on that...  
bw in dc : 5/22/2019 3:12 pm : link
I think Eli would be off the hook if Samuel came down with the ball because Tyree blew his assignment.
It is because there is a fair amount of Giants fans that DON'T LIKE  
Chris684 : 5/22/2019 3:15 pm : link
Eli Manning.

It can't be argued and a place like BBi makes it so obvious.

You have guys that "LOL" at the thought of Eli having a sub .500 record while the thought makes the rest of us want to puke.

You have people who admittedly are still mad at hime for not wanting to go to San Diego. Imagine a "Giants fan" feeling that way?

What kind of Giants fan tries to diminish Eli's Super Bowl 42 performance?

As with lots of arguments around here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/22/2019 3:31 pm : link
the root cause is generally one person with a point that's a little on the extreme side, and the response is someone overcorrecting with a post that's too far the other way.


Just like you can point to posters who probably don't like Eli and actively look to marginalize him, you can certainly also point to posters who would put him on the same level as QBs who have had better careers and overreact when questioned.
Chris and Greatful Head..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/22/2019 3:34 pm : link
yep! It is probably why I'm drawn to these discussions like a moth to a flame.

I don't want to miss the punchline that we've all been punked.

Just never understood why anyone would go on long debates about Eli being a game manager in the SB runs. Or trying several tacts to de-emphasize anything he did in the road to two titles.

Maybe it isn't a troll job, but if not, quite a few posters just stubbornly stand by some shitty takes. My favorite posts were ones saying guys like Josh Freeman or Derek Carr are better than Eli based on one decent year.

and zero SB wins...
RE: It is because there is a fair amount of Giants fans that DON'T LIKE  
bw in dc : 5/22/2019 4:06 pm : link
In comment 14452449 Chris684 said:
Quote:
Eli Manning.

It can't be argued and a place like BBi makes it so obvious.

You have guys that "LOL" at the thought of Eli having a sub .500 record while the thought makes the rest of us want to puke.

You have people who admittedly are still mad at hime for not wanting to go to San Diego. Imagine a "Giants fan" feeling that way?

What kind of Giants fan tries to diminish Eli's Super Bowl 42 performance?


I am not diminishing Eli's performance at all in SB 42. He played very well.

But I am tacking and saying there was a more historical performance on the other side of the ball, the D, and Tuck, IMV, should have been the MVP instead. You would think with some of these retorts that I am suggesting Ty Warren should have been the MVP.

And I've been consistent with my position because I said Ty Law should have been the MVP in SB32 when the Pats beat the Rams and Brady was incorrectly awarded the MVP.

I have never said Eli is a game manager, root for a his career W/L to be .500 or <, etc.

But I admit I did not like how the Mannings and Condon handled the 2004 draft. It was the height of arrogance and reeked of Archie protecting his youngest son. And that totally flew in the face of what Peyton did six year earlier. He was more than willing to play for the hapless Colts in '98 and even told Polian that he looked forward to "kicking his ass" every time the he played the Colts if another team - ironically it would have been San Diego! - drafted him. So I never understood what the hell changed...

If there was a standout player on the defense in 42  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/22/2019 4:12 pm : link
they would have won the MVP. There wasn't. It was one of the best team defense performances in a superbowl ever. If the defense had made the stop at the end instead of giving up a TD maybe you see Tuck win it. They didn't so they gave it to Eli who had the game winning drive. I can't believe this is so controversial.
Itís amazing the lengths fans go  
dep026 : 5/22/2019 4:47 pm : link
To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.
with the exception of a few decent seasons and 2 SB  
Jersey55 : 5/22/2019 4:51 pm : link
performances Eli has had a very mediocre career over 14 seasons, not hall of fame material as far as I'm concerned, he lacked any consistency at all...
The video doesnít show a tough catch  
KWALL2 : 5/22/2019 4:53 pm : link
From the top angle, you see he saw the balll. Gathered him self to jump. Bounced once and then jumped. He misjudged it a little. He could have gone higher.

The soft toss bounced off his hands. Any guy who can can catch would tell you he catches that ball all day. It was right at him.

But we got it wrong. All of the writers got it wrong. His teammates were wrong even the ones talking about it years later. Hell he did he dropped it. Heís wrong too.
Misjudging is a frequent part of the missing skill  
JonC : 5/22/2019 4:55 pm : link
that is catching a football.
Easy catch  
JonC : 5/22/2019 4:56 pm : link
or not. Again, if he had good hands he'd be playing WR.
What's the whole point  
JonC : 5/22/2019 4:56 pm : link
about Samuel not making the pick here?
Asante said it himself, if he jumped higher he may not have gotten his  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/22/2019 4:57 pm : link
feet in bounds. And we'll never know because he barely did as is. People talk about woulda, coulda, shoulda, all day. It didn't happen. Those plays happen all the time in football.
Jon....I think that is a common misconception  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/22/2019 5:00 pm : link
Playing WR it is much easier to judge balls than being a dback. There is so much more you need to react to including the WR when the WR only needs to concentrate on catching the ball.
RE: What's the whole point  
dep026 : 5/22/2019 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14452606 JonC said:
Quote:
about Samuel not making the pick here?


For KWALL to shit on eli for 16 consecutive years. Nothing more or less.
RE: Easy catch  
bw in dc : 5/22/2019 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14452605 JonC said:
Quote:
or not. Again, if he had good hands he'd be playing WR.


That's as silly as saying people play WR because they can't tackle or cover.

There are some great players who played in the secondary with great hands - Sanders, Green, Law, Reed, both Woodsons, etc.
It's not a misconception  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:11 pm : link
Kids that wind up playing defense tend to do so because they're better suited there. WRs whose hands and skills (ball skills, eye skills, positional instincts, body control, footwork, timing, route tree command etc) don't grow enough are often converted to DB.
bw, see my last post  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:13 pm : link
This stuff is common knowledge if you've played organized football.
RE: It's not a misconception  
bw in dc : 5/22/2019 5:18 pm : link
In comment 14452637 JonC said:
Quote:
Kids that wind up playing defense tend to do so because they're better suited there. WRs whose hands and skills (ball skills, eye skills, positional instincts, body control, footwork, timing, route tree command etc) don't grow enough are often converted to DB.


I get what you are saying to a degree. But it's just not right to say that corners/DBs are just faild WRs.

Deion Sanders influenced a generation of players who solely wanted to play corner. It's a marquee position that has considerable influence the game - both from the impact on a game and the impact on the cap.

That's a very literal interpretation  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:22 pm : link
.
RE: bw, see my last post  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/22/2019 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14452639 JonC said:
Quote:
This stuff is common knowledge if you've played organized football.


This is a refrain I've heard from people that played pre 2000-ish. This has changed greatly in the last 20 years. Actually, it is much more difficult to find guys that can cover and do all things a dback is responsible for than guys who can play WR. Covering someone man to man, being able to find and locate the ball and adjust on the fly is much more difficult that knowing the route and where the QB is going with the ball. In college a lot of times, if that guy is a truly special player they find ways to incorporate him into offense.
As to the lack of a pick from Samuel  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:27 pm : link
or the Welker no catch, for me it offset the lack of holding calls on NE in the first SB, and the shitty holding call on interior OL in the second.
I think it is unlikely  
Steve in ATL : 5/22/2019 5:27 pm : link
He has played behind a bad OL for years and needs at least a decent OL to perform well.

The press doesn't like him.

Being Peyton's brother doesn't help.

If he takes the Giants deep into the playoffs with excellent play then he has a chance. Another Super Bowl would help a lot.

I love Eli and it is a shame that the last half of his career has been wasted behind a bad OL.

I hope Eli lands on a good team in 2020 with a chance to win.

Zeke  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:31 pm : link
Skill positions on offense remain the premier positions imv. Speed and athleticism have certainly increased on defense, the game has evolved into a speed game all over the field.
The DB traits you describe  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:36 pm : link
have always been on the scouting profile. Teams will always try to insert a sick athlete on offense. They just typically already play offense.
RE: Zeke  
Zeke's Alibi : 5/22/2019 5:38 pm : link
In comment 14452673 JonC said:
Quote:
Skill positions on offense remain the premier positions imv. Speed and athleticism have certainly increased on defense, the game has evolved into a speed game all over the field.


If I was coaching a college team and I had a kid that was going to be a superstar WR vs superstar CB. I'm pushing that kid to play CB, it is a harder position to fill with good players and it enables you to do so much on defense. But it really comes down to the scarcity issue. Easier to find good WR's than CB's. I agree though it is very different skill set. Samuel had to do something that looks routine for WR's, high pointing a ball he can barely get to as is and getting his feet in bounds. Not something that he practices all that often while WR's probably do drills like that everyday.
I hear you, it's good food  
JonC : 5/22/2019 5:40 pm : link
I've heard and read coaches who feel the same, typically they're defensive coaches.
...  
christian : 5/22/2019 5:59 pm : link
The Giants took advantage when the breaks fell their way.

It's not unequivocal Samuel or Welker should or should not have made each play. Each would have been a great play if made and would have been the story if so.

No matter the above that doesn't diminish the subsequent plays Manning made in those games.

The difference very often in a close game is who takes advantage of the breaks. Doing so is not a guarantee or a given.

For me the more interesting question is, say the Pats do make one of those plays, is Manning not Hall worthy?
Think about this....if Eli gets into the Hof, it was partly because  
Jimmy Googs : 5/22/2019 6:47 pm : link
he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)
RE: Think about this....if Eli gets into the Hof, it was partly because  
dep026 : 5/22/2019 7:06 pm : link
In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)


Or the WR running the wrong route. :)
RE: RE: Think about this....if Eli gets into the Hof, it was partly because  
Jimmy Googs : 5/22/2019 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14452764 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)



Or the WR running the wrong route. :)


How does that help him get into the HoF?
RE: RE: RE: Think about this....if Eli gets into the Hof, it was partly because  
dep026 : 5/22/2019 7:13 pm : link
In comment 14452770 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14452764 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)



Or the WR running the wrong route. :)



How does that help him get into the HoF?



Because if he run the right route and catches it... thereís no miracle tyree play :)
RE: Itís amazing the lengths fans go  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/22/2019 7:19 pm : link
In comment 14452584 dep026 said:
Quote:
To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.

Proving TTH's point.

Who's dismissing Eli here?
RE: RE: Itís amazing the lengths fans go  
dep026 : 5/22/2019 7:25 pm : link
In comment 14452782 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14452584 dep026 said:


Quote:


To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.


Proving TTH's point.

Who's dismissing Eli here?


You canít see people diminishing his award or the semantics of a stupid play?

Shocked! Iíd tell ya...
RE: RE: RE: Itís amazing the lengths fans go  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/22/2019 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14452791 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14452782 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14452584 dep026 said:


Quote:


To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.


Proving TTH's point.

Who's dismissing Eli here?



You canít see people diminishing his award or the semantics of a stupid play?

Shocked! Iíd tell ya...

That's not what you said. You said dismiss.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I wouldn't be surprised either way with Eli, if he gets in or doesn't. And I do think that Tuck should have gotten the MVP in SB42 even though I do think Eli was plenty deserving himself. Does that mean that I'm dismissing him in your view?

Not everything is as binary as it seems like you're making it out to be.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Think about this....if Eli gets into the Hof, it was partly because  
Jimmy Googs : 5/22/2019 7:49 pm : link
In comment 14452774 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 14452770 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14452764 dep026 said:


Quote:


In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)



Or the WR running the wrong route. :)



How does that help him get into the HoF?




Because if he run the right route and catches it... thereís no miracle tyree play :)


Too high per posts above to catch
Eli was trying to throw  
crick n NC : 5/22/2019 8:18 pm : link
The ball away mid throw which is why he didn't get it far oob. His intended target was Smith, Smith ran a different route than what the defensive coverage
Dictated.
Btw  
crick n NC : 5/22/2019 8:21 pm : link
This information came from the spike Lee short about the great pass\receptions that Eli has been a part of. Also some of this information came from the Gary Meyers hosted show which had Manning, Manningham, Tyree, and Beckham.
Right here is the ONLY compelling reason why he does not get in...  
EricJ : 5/22/2019 8:22 pm : link
because he has to get VOTED in and Eli is not as well respected by those who vote as he should be. Unfortunately, we have seen him have some bad games on national TV since the last Superbowl appearance. Those voters do not get to see him every week like we do. They are also influenced by a lot of the bullshit you hear from the pundits.
Eli  
stretch234 : 5/22/2019 10:11 pm : link
His problem is not so much what he has accomplished on the field, which will get him in, but other things

1- he is not Peyton

2- he forced a trade

3- he is boring in the media capital of the world

He has won 2 SB, both times having the ball in his hands last and trailing and leading to wins. His 2nd half SB numbers are ridiculous

It still amazes me people say - outside of 2 SB runs he has not done anything else. He did win 2.

I am still convinced he would have 3 if Plax didnít derail the 08 team
Eli is an annoying QB  
NINEster : 5/22/2019 10:37 pm : link
No QB/offense gave the 49ers more problems in 2011 and 2012, and yet after Eli's last game at Candlestick, he did less overall against Niner defenses going forward, most of them outside of 2014, not on the level of the Fangio/Harbaugh defenses.

It's hard to write off the national narrative when those two very good seasons were a long time ago, and 2004-2007 weren't exactly remarkable seasons either.

The Giants offense as one that imposed it's will on teams lasted 2008-2012 (and not even the entire 2012). What was common on those 5 teams were a plethora of offensive weapons (at least one stud outside WR, a good slot WR, a decent #3 WR, a good TE, and a good running game).

The makeup of the Giants offense didn't get enough credit in those years. The Giants utilized every last guy on offense to win games.

Mario Manningham, the unsung hero against the 49ers and Patriots that SB season. Without him, no Lombardi.

RE: Eli is an annoying QB  
BlueLou'sBack : 5/23/2019 1:54 am : link
In comment 14453067 NINEster said:
Quote:
No QB/offense gave the 49ers more problems in 2011 and 2012, and yet after Eli's last game at Candlestick, he did less overall against Niner defenses going forward, most of them outside of 2014, not on the level of the Fangio/Harbaugh defenses.

It's hard to write off the national narrative when those two very good seasons were a long time ago, and 2004-2007 weren't exactly remarkable seasons either.

The Giants offense as one that imposed it's will on teams lasted 2008-2012 (and not even the entire 2012). What was common on those 5 teams were a plethora of offensive weapons (at least one stud outside WR, a good slot WR, a decent #3 WR, a good TE, and a good running game).

The makeup of the Giants offense didn't get enough credit in those years. The Giants utilized every last guy on offense to win games.

Mario Manningham, the unsung hero against the 49ers and Patriots that SB season. Without him, no Lombardi.


As a 9ers fan, how impressed were you with Eli's resilience in the 2011 title game?

IMO, and a lot of Giants' fans here support this observation, that the toughness and resiliency he showed in that game - most QBs even "GOATS" like Brady or Rodgers likely crumble under that onslaught your D laid on our OL and QB - was absolutely an HOF level performance, stats be damned.
RE: RE: I think he should be...but...  
Jersey55 : 5/23/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14451022 Pork Chop said:
Quote:
In comment 14451009 Pork Chop said:


Quote:


having an overall losing record in his starts is pretty tough to ignore.




Obviously assuming that he retires with a record less than .500. He's 116-114 now.


Eli's record of 116-114 puts Eli just about where he should be a middle grade QB, in short, nothing special...definitely not a HOF QB...
So when it comes to W/Lís  
dep026 : 5/23/2019 10:59 am : link
The QB stats matter.... but when it comes to Super Bowls... itís a team game.

Makes sense.
RE: So when it comes to W/Lís  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/23/2019 11:06 am : link
In comment 14453432 dep026 said:
Quote:
The QB stats matter.... but when it comes to Super Bowls... itís a team game.

Makes sense.

Or one poster made one of those points and a completely different poster made the other point? No single poster made both of those points.

Does that help it make more sense?
QBs who go into the HOF should be judged by their complete  
Jersey55 : 5/23/2019 5:19 pm : link
record of games played and wins and losses and not just on a few highlight games, the total record tells the story and if thats true then Eli is just an ordinary run of the mill QB and definitely not HOF calibre...
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