for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Your most compelling argument why Eli is never enshrined.

Beezer : 5/21/2019 12:30 pm
Figured I'd come at it from a different angle. Granted, many of us have a bias, and believe he will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame.

But give me your best argument that shows specific reasons why Eli Manning would NOT ever receive induction at Canton.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
RE: RE: I appreciate Eli  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/21/2019 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14451027 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
In comment 14451016 Larry from WV said:


Quote:


But at no point in his career could you make an argument that he was in the top 3 at his position.



2011 season he was.

Not top 3. You can make a legitimate case that he wasn't even top 5 in 2011.



Eli has never been as bad as his detractors have made him out to be, but he's also never been as good (comparatively speaking) as some Giants fans seem to believe. Even in his best season, he wasn't really one of the 3-4 best QBs in the league. But he was exactly the QB the Giants needed that year and for most of his career, and that's really what matters.

Whether that genuinely makes him a HOFer or not is less clear, IMO.
BillT  
Go Terps : 5/21/2019 2:14 pm : link
We're talking about the highest individual honor a player can receive. Were the poor 2014 and 2015 seasons Eli's fault? No, but are those HOF level years from him? I don't know...I definitely don't feel strongly that they are.

Eli's had a very strange career arc. With the possible exception of 2011, he's never clearly been amongst the top 3 or 4 QBs in a given regular season. The defining moments of his career are the '07 and '11 postseasons. If you remove those 8 games he has zero candidacy for the HOF. So the question is, do you think two incredible postseason runs are enough to carry a 15 year career into the HOF? To me, given some of the guys that are already in the HOF, yes...Eli should be in. But I hate that rationale...that thinking waters down the HOF significantly.

Warren Moon and Jim Kelly are in the HOF...do those guys deserve to be in the same room as Joe Montana and John Unitas? I think that answer is self-evident.
RE: RE: To be fair...  
Gatorade Dunk : 5/21/2019 2:17 pm : link
In comment 14451065 Gman11 said:
Quote:
In comment 14451046 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


this is misleading:



Quote:


no one with as many losses as him as in the HOF.



Favre has more losses and Brees likely will



Not only did Joe Namath have more losses than wins, but he had more interceptions than touchdowns.

I'm not sure using a guy that many feel shouldn't be in the HOF is a particularly compelling argument for why Eli should. If the strongest case you can make for Eli's candidacy is that he's a better version of Namath, I think you're doing him a disservice.

Eli's HOF candidacy is interesting because of how volatile his career is - he's got some of the highest highs and some of the lowest lows. There are legitimate elements of his complete body of work that stand out as mediocre, yet his ironman streak, the two SB runs, his Payton awards, those are all really strong in his favor.

I honestly won't be shocked if he doesn't get in, or if he ends up waiting a few years to ultimately be enshrined, but that's not the same as me saying that I would feel he's undeserving if/when he does get in.
RE: He has never been  
kinard : 5/21/2019 2:28 pm : link
In comment 14451055 Don in DC said:
Quote:
a top three QB in the league at any point in his career. Maybe not even a top 5.

I love Eli, but this is the argument I would make if I was against him.


I'll push back on this a bit - I actually think there was a time when Eli was the BEST QB in the NFL, although it wasn't in one calendar season.

It's often overlooked, but Eli had a run between 12/24/11 (Jets) and 11/4/12 (at Dallas) when he was 12-2 threw for almost 4,000 yards (282 per game)and, I would argue that no QB was playing better. During that time, he beat the Pats in the Super Bowl, beat the Packers in Green Bay, beat the 49ers in SF twice and beat the Cowboys twice (among other wins). It sure did seem like the Giants would be a perennial playoff team. Little did we know what was to come...

Nevertheless, for that 14 game window in 2011-12, Eli Manning was the best QB in football, the Giants were by far the best team in the NFL and would have made a strong case for back-to-back championships....if Plaxico didn't shoot himself in that nightclub

So Eli's consecutive starts streak is not  
Chris684 : 5/21/2019 2:32 pm : link
a part of his HOF candidacy?

His knack for coming from behind late in games throughout his career is not either?

There is so much more to Eli Manning than just 2011.

RE: So Eli's consecutive starts streak is not  
pjcas18 : 5/21/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14451230 Chris684 said:
Quote:
a part of his HOF candidacy?

His knack for coming from behind late in games throughout his career is not either?

There is so much more to Eli Manning than just 2011.



As of 9/12/2018 Eli was tied in 4th quarter comebacks with Matthew Stafford and Matt Ryan. Just behind Vinny Testaverde.

If this was reasons why Eli will be enshrined (Beez's thread for tomorrow) you might have some points, but the point of the thread was why will Eli NOT be enshrined.
I guess I eventually fall back to the name of the place.  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 2:36 pm : link
It's the Hall of Fame. Not the Hall of Greatness. (I realize saying that opens up all sorts of other conversations, but whether some call it a "sham" or it's just the reality of things, that's the way it is today.

Eli's had some great moments, all-time NFL level. But he's also not-so-arguably the most famous of all New York Giants quarterbacks, for a variety of reasons, including the polarizing stuff and for all those even Giants fans who say openly "Eli sucks!" (I've got one buddy who says it non-stop, like it's a sport in and of itself).

Eli has certainly had some very solid seasons over the past few years, in spite of the team's ineptitude. Last year is a perfect example. I think Eli did enough to make the Giants at LEAST a borderline playoff team, and possibly a playoff team, if not for a couple very long, last-second FGs and the overall breakdown of the Giants defense later in games.

I'm interested, too, to read some arguments against from posters who I know love them some Eli (as I do).

I hope he's got enough juice to get inducted when it's said and done. If it happens, I know my son and I will celebrate, and we will absolutely make the road trip for - at this moment - the only Giants quarterback he has ever known.
While I understand the coming from behind argument  
Larry from WV : 5/21/2019 2:36 pm : link
The other side of that is playing poorly in the first 3 quarters to put us in a position to have to make a comeback.
Ha! No thread tomorrow on this.  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 2:37 pm : link
Plenty of "reasons why" in this one. Because motherfuckers can't follow instructions!
RE: RE: He has never been  
ron mexico : 5/21/2019 2:37 pm : link
In comment 14451219 kinard said:
Quote:
In comment 14451055 Don in DC said:


Quote:


a top three QB in the league at any point in his career. Maybe not even a top 5.

I love Eli, but this is the argument I would make if I was against him.



I'll push back on this a bit - I actually think there was a time when Eli was the BEST QB in the NFL, although it wasn't in one calendar season.

It's often overlooked, but Eli had a run between 12/24/11 (Jets) and 11/4/12 (at Dallas) when he was 12-2 threw for almost 4,000 yards (282 per game)and, I would argue that no QB was playing better. During that time, he beat the Pats in the Super Bowl, beat the Packers in Green Bay, beat the 49ers in SF twice and beat the Cowboys twice (among other wins). It sure did seem like the Giants would be a perennial playoff team. Little did we know what was to come...

Nevertheless, for that 14 game window in 2011-12, Eli Manning was the best QB in football, the Giants were by far the best team in the NFL and would have made a strong case for back-to-back championships....if Plaxico didn't shoot himself in that nightclub


plax shot himself in 08

are you talking about the end of 07 into the first 3/4 of 08?
This isn't..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 2:38 pm : link
meant to slam the question posed in the OP, but I've often wondered why with eli it is wondering what things will cause him to not be in the HoF instead of things that will get him in. Seems to me that's the way people have approached him for years.

People don't wonder how Rivers will get in the HoF missing the playoffs 7 out of 8 years in one stretch. People don't say that Brett Favre might have needed another ring to offset losses and INT's.

But that's always the song and dance done for eli. Often by the team's own supposed fans.
RE: This isn't..  
Chris684 : 5/21/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14451239 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
meant to slam the question posed in the OP, but I've often wondered why with eli it is wondering what things will cause him to not be in the HoF instead of things that will get him in. Seems to me that's the way people have approached him for years.

People don't wonder how Rivers will get in the HoF missing the playoffs 7 out of 8 years in one stretch. People don't say that Brett Favre might have needed another ring to offset losses and INT's.

But that's always the song and dance done for eli. Often by the team's own supposed fans.


This.

And I'm reading NYG fans not only lay out "reasons why" but also argue them as if they're legitimate.

If you came to BBI from outer space you would think Eli Manning is a scrub who got lucky a couple of times.
Can the story of the NFL  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/21/2019 2:44 pm : link
be taught without mentioning Eli Manning.

Absolutely not. He is a dragon slayer sort to speak and the first to do it.
RE: This isn't..  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 2:46 pm : link
In comment 14451239 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
meant to slam the question posed in the OP, but I've often wondered why with eli it is wondering what things will cause him to not be in the HoF instead of things that will get him in. Seems to me that's the way people have approached him for years.

People don't wonder how Rivers will get in the HoF missing the playoffs 7 out of 8 years in one stretch. People don't say that Brett Favre might have needed another ring to offset losses and INT's.

But that's always the song and dance done for eli. Often by the team's own supposed fans.


For me, I think he's a low-level lock, even after you wade through all the "arguments against."

I wanted to ask what all the "arguments against" are/have been, just to get them all laid out, after going back and forth with my cousin, who really couldn't come up with specific reasons ... just that the voters won't pull the lever for him, even after I'd given a laundry list of reasons I think he WILL be inducted.

I do wonder how big of a factor it is that I'm a fan of his and a Giants fan (like so many here) ... I mean, I realize it's a factor, but I don't consider myself a flat-out homer.
Eli is a HOFer  
GothamGiants : 5/21/2019 2:46 pm : link
Top 10 in yards all time with some epic playoff performances
- His NFC championship vs 49ers was 1 of the greatest QB performances I’ve ever seen.

4th quarter comebacks, etc. ... I imagine his W/L record and INTs are the biggest negatives, on top of the fact he was never the “best” QB in the league during his career.

But he’s a HOFer, no question. First ballot may not be in the cards however.

Look, it’s possible to love and respect Eli while acknowledging Daniel Jones may actually get playing time sooner than some want to expect.
When I was a kid..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 2:51 pm : link
I'd ask about Joe Namath. I'm not being facetious when some people would literally just say two words. "The Guarantee".

Even later on when I'd ask why he was in the HoF, I'd get the same response. And I'm fine with that.

when people complain about players in the HoF undeservedly, they either bitch about stat compilers or guys who only won rings. Eli covers both categories and still gets debated.

But what rings hollow to me are supposed Giants fans who use the argumentation that other team's fans don't appreciate him (probably because THEY, themselves don't). My brother-in-law is a Bills fan and he respects the hell out of Eli. I took Namath's "guarantee" at face value, yet some of our own fans don't take two SB rings at face value.
RE: RE: This isn't..  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14451241 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14451239 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


meant to slam the question posed in the OP, but I've often wondered why with eli it is wondering what things will cause him to not be in the HoF instead of things that will get him in. Seems to me that's the way people have approached him for years.

People don't wonder how Rivers will get in the HoF missing the playoffs 7 out of 8 years in one stretch. People don't say that Brett Favre might have needed another ring to offset losses and INT's.

But that's always the song and dance done for eli. Often by the team's own supposed fans.



This.

And I'm reading NYG fans not only lay out "reasons why" but also argue them as if they're legitimate.

If you came to BBI from outer space you would think Eli Manning is a scrub who got lucky a couple of times.


It's gotten tougher for me, through this thread, to know where the actual true beliefs stop and the "making arguments against" (for the sake of the thread) begin.

Example ... one poster said he won two Super Bowls due to a couple lucky catches. Really? Yes, the Tyree helmet catch was insane, and not seen before, but that entire play leading to the helmet catch was all Eli. And the sideline throw where he dropped the football in a bucket along, second win over the Patriots? Show me a better throw in a Super Bowl in a more critical moment of the game? Sure, great catch, too. But as for my proposal? I don't think you can.

But they were a couple lucky catches. lol And again, as a different poster pointed out, it's as if the Giants magically appeared in those two Pats Super Bowls without any great performances from their quarterback. The Niners game alone should be on a loop the weekend of his induction - that game and his performance in it, hard as it is to fathom, gets forgotten very quickly. It's one of the grittiest performances I've seen y a quarterback since I've been watching football, and that's a long damn time.
Giants fans are weird with Eli  
Chris684 : 5/21/2019 2:55 pm : link
that's just the truth.

I have no doubt in my mind that Nick Foles is held in higher regard in Philadelphia than Eli Manning is in New York.

Sad.
RE: When I was a kid..  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/21/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14451251 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
I'd ask about Joe Namath. I'm not being facetious when some people would literally just say two words. "The Guarantee".

Even later on when I'd ask why he was in the HoF, I'd get the same response. And I'm fine with that.

when people complain about players in the HoF undeservedly, they either bitch about stat compilers or guys who only won rings. Eli covers both categories and still gets debated.

But what rings hollow to me are supposed Giants fans who use the argumentation that other team's fans don't appreciate him (probably because THEY, themselves don't). My brother-in-law is a Bills fan and he respects the hell out of Eli. I took Namath's "guarantee" at face value, yet some of our own fans don't take two SB rings at face value.


You proved one of my points.

You cannot tell the history of the NFL without "Joe Namath" along with "The Guarantee" and I am fine with that as well.
RE: When I was a kid..  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14451251 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
But what rings hollow to me are supposed Giants fans who use the argumentation that other team's fans don't appreciate him (probably because THEY, themselves don't). My brother-in-law is a Bills fan and he respects the hell out of Eli. I took Namath's "guarantee" at face value, yet some of our own fans don't take two SB rings at face value.


I get what you're saying, but I hear those things a bit differently. A lot of non-Giants fans belittle Eli for varieties of reasons, and because of that, I guess I see a point in translating it, with a small bit of concern, to the HoF voters. Some will be like your Bills fan brother-in-law and see the big picture, while others will be like my buddy, in his 40s, who's seen both Eli Super Bowls, and STILL rails on the guy. It's somewhat maddening. But it's real.
RE: BillT  
BillT : 5/21/2019 2:59 pm : link
In comment 14451196 Go Terps said:
Quote:
We're talking about the highest individual honor a player can receive. Were the poor 2014 and 2015 seasons Eli's fault? No, but are those HOF level years from him? I don't know...I definitely don't feel strongly that they are.

Eli's had a very strange career arc. With the possible exception of 2011, he's never clearly been amongst the top 3 or 4 QBs in a given regular season. The defining moments of his career are the '07 and '11 postseasons. If you remove those 8 games he has zero candidacy for the HOF. So the question is, do you think two incredible postseason runs are enough to carry a 15 year career into the HOF? To me, given some of the guys that are already in the HOF, yes...Eli should be in. But I hate that rationale...that thinking waters down the HOF significantly.

Warren Moon and Jim Kelly are in the HOF...do those guys deserve to be in the same room as Joe Montana and John Unitas? I think that answer is self-evident.

I get that Terps but like you said "given some of the guys that are already in the HOF, yes...Eli should be in. " That's the bottom line. It's their standards not ours. Also, top 10 in both passing yards and passing TDs. Not insignificant.
He's in...  
Kanavis : 5/21/2019 3:01 pm : link
Simple... There are almost no QBs in history who could have put those two teams on his back and brought them to and through 2 SBs. Do you have any idea how good the Packers, Cowboys, 49ers and the other teams were those years? GB had one loss the second time. Pats had none the first. It wasn't just the SB game, it was all of those playoff games. I don't even think any of the QBs he is compared to could have made those runs. Not Big Ben and definitely not Rivers. I don't think even Brady or Brees go all the way with those teams. His brother as well. Some comments seem to suggest it was all defense. In each game there were difficult plays to make... Very difficult. He did much more in those runs than he is given credit for.

Most regular seasons he has been closer to the middle of the pack. Some years worse. Doesn't change anything. He goes in. And this comes from someone who would prefer we move on from him.
Joe Flacco  
jacob12 : 5/21/2019 3:02 pm : link
I would not compare Joe Flacco to Trent Dilfer, Alex Smith, Brad Johnson, and Jake Delhomme. Joe played in 15 playoff games, and he is one of the best post-season quarterbacks in NFL history.

Flacco was an excellent QB before his injury.
Honestly..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 3:02 pm : link
my non-Giant fan friends give Eli a lot more credit than a fair portion of BBI posters. I have a couple Jets fans who realize if they had eli instead of Butt fumble that they might have a couple more rings.

My buddy who is a Broncos fan never rags on Eli - and really has no cause to. I hang with a couple of Pats fans who said they would have two more rings if it wasn't for Eli.

The only guy who really says anything about him is a Redskins fan.
I also know a ton..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 3:04 pm : link
of Panthers fans, and they really don't say much about Eli. They probably don't want to open the doors for abuse on Cam.
RE: Honestly..  
Chris684 : 5/21/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14451270 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
my non-Giant fan friends give Eli a lot more credit than a fair portion of BBI posters. I have a couple Jets fans who realize if they had eli instead of Butt fumble that they might have a couple more rings.

My buddy who is a Broncos fan never rags on Eli - and really has no cause to. I hang with a couple of Pats fans who said they would have two more rings if it wasn't for Eli.

The only guy who really says anything about him is a Redskins fan.


This really is true.

Father-in-law is Cowboys fan and shakes his head in disbelief when NYG fans bitch about Eli.
RE: Eli  
18E : 5/21/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14451088 aceinthehouse said:
Quote:
Will make the HOF on name alone.

It's unfortunate, because I don't think he's earned it. But we all know the HOF has become more political, than earned induction.

Yes, he beat the Patriots twice in SB & that will mostly be what gets him in.

But Eli was never feared. Your defense wasn't shaking in their boots because Eli stepped on the field. And that should be a huge barometer in who makes it & who doesn't at any position.

Add in a career losing record, along with his INT's in this modern era and it really is not that tough a choice, imo.

Imo, If Eli Manning makes the HOF, than you also have to induct Jim Plunkett, too.
Also a 2x winning SB winner. And that isn't gonna happen either with his career passing completion %.

But let's be honest here, the reason the Giants won those SB's was because of great defense helped with HOFer Michael Strahan who does belong. And some classic lucky catches, to name a few.

But we all know that Eli will make the HOF because it's now mostly a sham.

But the ONLY reason Eli makes the HOF, will be because his last name is Manning & nothing more.

If anything, the longer he plays? The more he's showing he doesn't belong. Had he retired 5 years ago? I'd be championing him to belong in the Hall.

But he's not just losing it, he's way past losing it & just sucks now.

Everytime he steps on the field, he gives the HOF committee reason to question if he he belongs in the HOF.

Even with carrying the Manning name on his back.

It will be even worse, when Eli gets yanked from a game because of poor play.

Only to bring in a guy everyone laughed at, when they selected him @#6 in Daniel Jones from Duke.

A guy who's College completion % rivals that of Ironically...Jim Plunkett.

So..
Does Eli Manning belong in the HOF?
No

Will he get in?
Yes

First Ballot?
Uh....no


Fuck you Redskins fan. Grab your shinebox.
Beezer  
Klaatu : 5/21/2019 3:10 pm : link
Here's another lucky Super Bowl catch
I'd really like to know..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 3:11 pm : link
how many of you get in conversations about Eli where he's ragged on about his play, and what preceded it.

People who have given shit about Eli have done it based on his demeanor. Just like I'd rag on my Broncos fan about Elway's horse teeth. Heck, I can't think of many conversations where we actually get into the details. Usually it is relegated to Cam's dabbing or ridiculous outfits or his knack of celebrating down 20+ points and shit like that.

The way this often gets posed is that you'll actually have people say comments like "Eli sucks" get said frequently.
right here  
V.I.G. : 5/21/2019 3:12 pm : link
In comment 14451016 Larry from WV said:
Quote:
But at no point in his career could you make an argument that he was in the top 3 at his position.


It's this^ In baseball, they would call him a compiler.

When he was in his prime, he was a no brainer if he kept it up that top 5 guy production. But that was a short stretch. Since then he has been at best a top 10 for the last 7 years.

HOF voters don't care if Reese screwed him with his line. But not for Warner's renaissance in AZ, I don't think he gets in. Eli hasn't had that [yet?] so it's still up for debate.

That said, I believe his post season, toughness and character get him in.
RE: RE: BillT  
Go Terps : 5/21/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14451262 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 14451196 Go Terps said:


Quote:


We're talking about the highest individual honor a player can receive. Were the poor 2014 and 2015 seasons Eli's fault? No, but are those HOF level years from him? I don't know...I definitely don't feel strongly that they are.

Eli's had a very strange career arc. With the possible exception of 2011, he's never clearly been amongst the top 3 or 4 QBs in a given regular season. The defining moments of his career are the '07 and '11 postseasons. If you remove those 8 games he has zero candidacy for the HOF. So the question is, do you think two incredible postseason runs are enough to carry a 15 year career into the HOF? To me, given some of the guys that are already in the HOF, yes...Eli should be in. But I hate that rationale...that thinking waters down the HOF significantly.

Warren Moon and Jim Kelly are in the HOF...do those guys deserve to be in the same room as Joe Montana and John Unitas? I think that answer is self-evident.


I get that Terps but like you said "given some of the guys that are already in the HOF, yes...Eli should be in. " That's the bottom line. It's their standards not ours. Also, top 10 in both passing yards and passing TDs. Not insignificant.


Look, I hope he gets in. If I were a Bears or Chiefs fan would I think he should be in? Probably not. But I'm a harder marker than the people actually making the decisions. To me the HOF should be reserved for only those players who have a legit argument for being among the all time elite players at their positions. The HOF, as it is, doesn't hold all that much weight for me.
RE: I'd really like to know..  
Beezer : 5/21/2019 3:19 pm : link
In comment 14451280 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
how many of you get in conversations about Eli where he's ragged on about his play, and what preceded it.

People who have given shit about Eli have done it based on his demeanor. Just like I'd rag on my Broncos fan about Elway's horse teeth. Heck, I can't think of many conversations where we actually get into the details. Usually it is relegated to Cam's dabbing or ridiculous outfits or his knack of celebrating down 20+ points and shit like that.

The way this often gets posed is that you'll actually have people say comments like "Eli sucks" get said frequently.


Weekly, my buddy makes some random comment about Eli "sucking." Most of the time I ignore him. Sometimes I recite all the reasons he doesn't "suck." Usually depends on how busy I am lol.

Today it was spurred by my cousin posting the "mirror image" of Eli and Jones on FB and tagging me, to which I said something about being hopeful we get a mirror image career from the rookie. At which point he said something like "you can't spell eliminated without Eli." And so it went.
Because people both over think and under think the qb position.  
djm : 5/21/2019 3:24 pm : link
Since 2005 the giants offense has been either good, great or above average every single season except 2013 and 2017 and 2018 and in 18 it was dead average despite a new staff and issues galore offensively.

Every single WR or TE Eli has played with here in ny has never gone and produced better stats elsewhere. Beckham won’t either.

2014-2015 Eli led the giants offense to 400 plus points (i could be slightly under in 2014 but it is close) despite NO OL, no RBs, no TEs and only one viable WR and NO defense.

The guy produced here. He also won two super bowl mvps.

People will over analyze and at the same time miss the low hanging fruit of Eli’s career. I just described it to a T.
Eli's case for getting into Canton...  
bw in dc : 5/21/2019 3:26 pm : link
are really the two playoff runs that led to the SB Ws over Brady/Belichick/Pats. Those are very weighty.

However, I do think some of that weight is reduced by a Foles beating the Pats as a back-up. But perhaps that is somewhat offset by Eli piloting the W over the Pats undefeated team in '08.

And it's going to be a big deal that the Giants did prevent the Pats from going undefeated.

Personally, I'm just not sure those six weeks in '08 and '11 are enough to offset a 15 regular season career that is somewhere between Andy Dalton and Tony Romo.

Not ONCE in Eli's career could you say he was the best QB in the league. The second best. The third best.

Fourth best? Maybe...but a stretch.

RE: RE: RE: BillT  
BillT : 5/21/2019 3:26 pm : link
In comment 14451285 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14451262 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 14451196 Go Terps said:


Look, I hope he gets in. If I were a Bears or Chiefs fan would I think he should be in? Probably not. But I'm a harder marker than the people actually making the decisions. To me the HOF should be reserved for only those players who have a legit argument for being among the all time elite players at their positions. The HOF, as it is, doesn't hold all that much weight for me.

I don't disagree but if this is what it is, then Eli belongs.
RE: RE: RE: He has never been  
kinard : 5/21/2019 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14451236 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14451219 kinard said:


Quote:


In comment 14451055 Don in DC said:


Quote:


a top three QB in the league at any point in his career. Maybe not even a top 5.

I love Eli, but this is the argument I would make if I was against him.



I'll push back on this a bit - I actually think there was a time when Eli was the BEST QB in the NFL, although it wasn't in one calendar season.

It's often overlooked, but Eli had a run between 12/24/11 (Jets) and 11/4/12 (at Dallas) when he was 12-2 threw for almost 4,000 yards (282 per game)and, I would argue that no QB was playing better. During that time, he beat the Pats in the Super Bowl, beat the Packers in Green Bay, beat the 49ers in SF twice and beat the Cowboys twice (among other wins). It sure did seem like the Giants would be a perennial playoff team. Little did we know what was to come...

Nevertheless, for that 14 game window in 2011-12, Eli Manning was the best QB in football, the Giants were by far the best team in the NFL and would have made a strong case for back-to-back championships....if Plaxico didn't shoot himself in that nightclub




plax shot himself in 08

are you talking about the end of 07 into the first 3/4 of 08?


You are so right and I am so wrong about confusing the two time periods. Actually besides that 12-2 run during the 2011-12 season, Eli had a run between 2007-2008 (more specifically between 12/29/07 and 11/1/08) where he went on a 15-1 run, THEN Plaxico shot himself in the leg...

So, really, there were two different periods (both non calendar years) when Eli had a strong argument for being the best QB in the NFL...
Count me in on Eli being a HOF qb ...  
moose53 : 5/21/2019 3:32 pm : link
by the logic of many on this thread, Nolan Ryan is not a hall of fame pitcher based on his won-loss record and number of losing seasons in his career. You're getting lost in the trees and not seeing the whole forest!

for Eli - the whole is more than the sum of his parts; and his two super bowl runs; essential role in each and deserved mvp's are the story for the HOF

Eli dosen't make it only based on one factor: he bucked the draft to stop going to the Chargers. The Chargers GM said trading Eli under those circumstances was the best moment of his career. I believe there are deep resentments towards Eli out there and it may come to roost in the HOF vote.
There really isn't any compelling argument against  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/21/2019 3:37 pm : link
I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.
RE: There really isn't any compelling argument against  
bw in dc : 5/21/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14451320 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.


Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.

Eli didn't hold the Pats to 14 points in '08, the D did. That's why we won.

Name one time in Eli's career when he was the best player in the league at QB? In the NFC? How about the second best for the league or conference?
RE: RE: There really isn't any compelling argument against  
kinard : 5/21/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14451324 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14451320 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:


I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.



Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.

Eli didn't hold the Pats to 14 points in '08, the D did. That's why we won.

Name one time in Eli's career when he was the best player in the league at QB? In the NFC? How about the second best for the league or conference?


BW - see my post above - Eli had 12-2 run during the 2011-12 season and between 2007-2008 (more specifically between 12/29/07 and 11/1/08) he went on a 15-1 run. Although not calendar years, one could argue that he was the best QB in the NFL during both of those time periods.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 5/21/2019 4:25 pm : link
Rationalizing the MVP??

Quote:
Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.


It isn't skewed just to QB's. Sometimes it goes to reputation. Ray Lewis was MVP against us. Sometimes it goes to a highlight play. Larry Brown and Desmond Howard were MVP's.

But let's not be disingenuous like Eli just sat back as the D did the work. He led game winning drives in both games. He was fully deserving.

I mean for fucks sake, we can't even have supposed Giants fans recognize that Eli is deserving
How is the SB46 MVP arguable?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 5/21/2019 4:28 pm : link
.
I think he belongs  
Phil in LA : 5/21/2019 4:34 pm : link
but what could get tricky, is if the Giants don't re-sign him and he gets no starting offers, while Rivers and Big Ben stay starters and keep compiling.
.  
Go Terps : 5/21/2019 4:37 pm : link
Eli twice turned Super Bowl defeats into victories with historic plays on game winning drives. Whatever you want to say about anything else, THAT can not be argued, rationalized, or taken away from him. Those carry enormous currency...as a fan I'd rather root for a QB that had his career than one that had Dan Marino's. Is Eli as good as Marino was? No, but Marino never turned a SB defeat into a victory with a historic play. That Eli did it twice carries immense weight.

Sometimes the essence of a great sports career can be boiled down to a few moments, or even a single moment rather than many years of accomplishment. To me, what Eli did in those 2 games outweighs what he did in the other 240 in terms of importance and in terms of assessing the value of his career. Those 2 games...shit, those 2 drives...are why we traded for him in the first place.

I'll listen to any argument about whether or not he should be in, but those two games CAN NOT be undervalued in even the slightest way.
RE: RE: There really isn't any compelling argument against  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 5/21/2019 4:38 pm : link
In comment 14451324 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14451320 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:


I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.



Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.

Eli didn't hold the Pats to 14 points in '08, the D did. That's why we won.

Name one time in Eli's career when he was the best player in the league at QB? In the NFC? How about the second best for the league or conference?


Are you forgetting the improbable 4th quarter comebacks and memorable throws to Tyree, Burress, and Manningham?

That's why he won the MVP.

He's the only QB ever to do that twice in the 4th Quarter of a Super Bowl.
RE: RE: There really isn't any compelling argument against  
USAF NYG Fan : 5/21/2019 4:39 pm : link
In comment 14451324 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14451320 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:


I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.



Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.

Eli didn't hold the Pats to 14 points in '08, the D did. That's why we won.

Name one time in Eli's career when he was the best player in the league at QB? In the NFC? How about the second best for the league or conference?

Eli was in contention for the MVP in 2011. If not for Brady's "almost" perfect season, I think Eli would have had it. Without Eli Manning, the Giants don't make the post-season much less the playoffs that year. 6th worst ranked defense and the absolute worst rush offense in the league that year. Eli dragged that team into the playoffs by setting a record high 4th quarter comeback wins on the season. The defense had NOTHING to do with that.

The Rams held the Patriots to 13 points just last year. How did that work out for them? Eli Manning led the game-winning drive which he had to do because the defense let the Patriots take the lead on the previous drive. Eli Manning threw the final TD and left only 35 seconds on the clock not risking the defense having to make another stop.

SB MVP is biased towards the QB? Ask Ben Roethlisberger about that. Ask big brother Peyton about that for his 2nd ring. Ask Tom Brady about it just this last SB. Ask Hostetler, Flacco, Dilfer, Etc if it's too biased for the QB. Five PLAYERS in the history of the league with multiple SB MVPs. Three are in the HoF, Tom Brady, and Eli Manning.
Its all about the SuperBowls  
JerseyCityJoe : 5/21/2019 4:42 pm : link
Without those games Eli doesn't have a chance in hell. However he has two 2 SB MVP's so he in.
Tom Brady  
pivo : 5/21/2019 4:45 pm : link
Might have an interesting argument why Eli will or won’t be in the HOF.
Tom Brady - THE GOAT
Tom Brady - winner of 6, six, VI, Super Bowls
Tom Brady - overwhelming favorite in 2 others
Tom Brady - couldn’t beat Eli.
I wonder what Tom’s argument would be as to Eli’s enshrinement?
Maybe someone should ask him.
RE: RE: RE: There really isn't any compelling argument against  
pjcas18 : 5/21/2019 4:45 pm : link
In comment 14451369 USAF NYG Fan said:
Quote:
In comment 14451324 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14451320 USAF NYG Fan said:


Quote:


I'm sorry but there's not. The .500 season average is a team stat. He doesn't just have 2 SB wins, he has the MVPs to go with it meaning he was the best player on the biggest stage, TWICE. Eli Manning's stats support the HoF vote even if the team's stats don't.



Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.

Eli didn't hold the Pats to 14 points in '08, the D did. That's why we won.

Name one time in Eli's career when he was the best player in the league at QB? In the NFC? How about the second best for the league or conference?


Eli was in contention for the MVP in 2011. If not for Brady's "almost" perfect season, I think Eli would have had it. Without Eli Manning, the Giants don't make the post-season much less the playoffs that year. 6th worst ranked defense and the absolute worst rush offense in the league that year. Eli dragged that team into the playoffs by setting a record high 4th quarter comeback wins on the season. The defense had NOTHING to do with that.

The Rams held the Patriots to 13 points just last year. How did that work out for them? Eli Manning led the game-winning drive which he had to do because the defense let the Patriots take the lead on the previous drive. Eli Manning threw the final TD and left only 35 seconds on the clock not risking the defense having to make another stop.

SB MVP is biased towards the QB? Ask Ben Roethlisberger about that. Ask big brother Peyton about that for his 2nd ring. Ask Tom Brady about it just this last SB. Ask Hostetler, Flacco, Dilfer, Etc if it's too biased for the QB. Five PLAYERS in the history of the league with multiple SB MVPs. Three are in the HoF, Tom Brady, and Eli Manning.


Aaron Rodgers won the MVP, not Brady and Rodgers got 48 out of 50 first places votes with Brees getting the other 2.

Eli and Brady the other two finalists, but it doesn't sound like Eli was particularly close.

The thread is simple. It asks people's opinions if Eli does't get elected to the HOF, why do you think he doesn't get in?

So for you, it's simple, Eli gets in. Others (and IMO especially outside of Giants nation) people disagree - for many of the reasons mentioned.
It’s not about liking Eli  
KWALL2 : 5/21/2019 4:47 pm : link
Who has a problem with him? Nobody.

They may have a problem that he’s overrated but that’s it. Nobody has a problem with Eli especially voters. Why would they?

The case against? Simply not a great player. Never top 5. Almost always out of the top 10. Above average QB but not close to elite. Lot of TOs and a lot of losing. 500 QB, TO machine, & inconsistent player. He shouldn’t get in.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 <<Prev | Show All |  Next>>
Back to the Corner