Figured I'd come at it from a different angle. Granted, many of us have a bias, and believe he will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame.
But give me your best argument that shows specific reasons why Eli Manning would NOT ever receive induction at Canton.
He belongs. Not a slam dunk, but he belongs...
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Rationalizing the MVP??
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Best player twice? Well, Eli received the MVP award - true - but that award is way too biased towards the QB. I can make better cases for several of the Dlinemen over Eli in each SB.
It isn't skewed just to QB's. Sometimes it goes to reputation. Ray Lewis was MVP against us. Sometimes it goes to a highlight play. Larry Brown and Desmond Howard were MVP's.
But let's not be disingenuous like Eli just sat back as the D did the work. He led game winning drives in both games. He was fully deserving.
I mean for fucks sake, we can't even have supposed Giants fans recognize that Eli is deserving
It's absolutely skewed toward QBs. Just because there have been non-QBs who have won it doesn't change that. It's fairly obvious that in absence of a no-doubt MVP candidate at another position, the winning QB takes the MVP award. It happens with some degree of regularity, too.
In SB42, you could make a deserving argument for Tyree, or for Strahan, or for Tuck. But since you really couldn't make a case for any of those above the others, Eli certainly appeared to get the benefit of what looked like a crowded field of MVP options. SB46 is way less ambiguous - Eli deserved every shred of that MVP award, IMO.
Why is it a ding against one's fandom to be realistic about how QBs tend to be the default option when the press chooses the SB MVP? Am I seriously less of a fan because I genuinely believed that Tuck or Tyree deserved the MVP in SB42? Last I checked, they were Giants also.
What the hell? Did people miss the key word in what I said?
I said the MVP isn't JUST skewed for QB's.
It is skewed towards reputations too. It is skewed towards a guy who has rely good stats, even if the outcome wasn't completely impacted.
What I said is that Eli deserved those MVP's by leading two 4th quarter comebacks. It wasn't just that he was the QB - it was that he actually meaningfully contributed while the game was in balance. I didn't say the MVP couldn't have gone to somebody else, but he absolutely didn't get it just for being the QB.
It might be the worst, most mythical exaggeration in the history of this team.
After all these years, a guy who couldn't even get a fingertip on a ball at the height of his jump is used as an example of us getting lucky. Not shockingly, it is almost always used to try and say that Eli was gifted something.
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No one is saying the Giants defense did anything other than a great job. The fact remains, they walked off the field as certain losers until Eli turned it around with a historic drive. That is absolutely indisputable. Like I said above I'll listen to arguments on either side, but I can't abide anything that calls Eli's contribution in that game into question to even the slightest degree. If we're listing the people who are most responsible for winning that game, his name is at the top of the list. I can't even consider anyone else.
Pats got the ball back with 30 seconds left at their own 26 and one timeout. A FG ties.
Guess how many yards they got? Minus 10.
Just the exclamation point on a historic performance.
Let’s be honest. The football gods were on Eli’s side for the go ahead drive that day.There was some serious serendipity going around. Samuel had a near interception. And then the play to Tyree. It was a drive that epitomized the saying - “sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good...”
It sort of reminded me of Brady getting the MVP in 2002 versus the Rams. He didn’t deserve it. That Pats D threw an absolute gem that day. Ty Law got totally screwed out of the MVP.
The better case for Eli was 2012.
Do these football Gods ever work against Eli? Or have they only conveniently shown up at times when they work in your favor to discredit Eli?
Paralysis by analysis.
Football isn't this complicated. Have the ball more, more chances to score, and limits the opportunities for the other team to score.
We're not talking about the difference between 2 minutes and a minute and 20 seconds. We're talking about opening the game up by having the ball for ten minutes (nearly 60 minutes in real time) before the other team even gets a shot. Tom Brady and company were still on their first drive when the second quarter started.
It might be the worst, most mythical exaggeration in the history of this team.
After all these years, a guy who couldn't even get a fingertip on a ball at the height of his jump is used as an example of us getting lucky. Not shockingly, it is almost always used to try and say that Eli was gifted something.
What would you expect from a Redskins fan?
Should he get in?
For the first question our opinion really doesn't matter. What does the national media think about Eli? You know the deal here. Half of them thinks he sucked, lucky and overrated. Who else is in the Hall of Fame with that kind of opinion about them? I don't know if he gets in. It's 50/50.
Should he get in? Fuck yes,I won't try to make the argument because it's been done in this thread by virtually everybody making the case why Eli should get in is correct.
It's also nearly universally accepted that in absence of a compelling candidate at another position, the winning QB has the inside track to the SB MVP trophy.
Can anyone really say with a straight face that there is absolutely no merit to Tuck or Tyree having been MVP of SB42? And it still seems odd that there are fans who act like the mere suggestion of recognizing the outstanding effort of other Giants in winning that game (in addition to Eli's performance) somehow makes you less of a Giants fan.
Ponderous.
I'm sure we can come up with sound arguments there too.
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that the QB position is the most important position on the entire team. They touch the ball every play and have an opportunity to make a big play every snap. So wouldnt that explain why QBs have won the most SB MVPs? How is that skewed?
It's also nearly universally accepted that in absence of a compelling candidate at another position, the winning QB has the inside track to the SB MVP trophy.
Can anyone really say with a straight face that there is absolutely no merit to Tuck or Tyree having been MVP of SB42? And it still seems odd that there are fans who act like the mere suggestion of recognizing the outstanding effort of other Giants in winning that game (in addition to Eli's performance) somehow makes you less of a Giants fan.
Ponderous.
Tuck could have won the MVP, I will give you that. Tyree not so much. He made the spectacular play, but was really a non factor the rest of the game.
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In comment 14451896 RinR said:
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that the QB position is the most important position on the entire team. They touch the ball every play and have an opportunity to make a big play every snap. So wouldnt that explain why QBs have won the most SB MVPs? How is that skewed?
It's also nearly universally accepted that in absence of a compelling candidate at another position, the winning QB has the inside track to the SB MVP trophy.
Can anyone really say with a straight face that there is absolutely no merit to Tuck or Tyree having been MVP of SB42? And it still seems odd that there are fans who act like the mere suggestion of recognizing the outstanding effort of other Giants in winning that game (in addition to Eli's performance) somehow makes you less of a Giants fan.
Ponderous.
Tuck could have won the MVP, I will give you that. Tyree not so much. He made the spectacular play, but was really a non factor the rest of the game.
Tyree had the first Giants TD to give them a 10 - 7 lead.
Not saying he should have won the MVP or not, but that's a big omission.
The question is, did Eli not play well enough to get it? A lot of players can make arguments that they could have been the MVP - but because others can say they could have been MVP doesn't (or at least in a sane world - shouldn't) discredit Eli from being awarded it.
Tuck was great. Strahan was great. The whole defensive line was great.
But when it came to crunch time, the defense walked off the field giving up the go ahead TD with two minutes to play, down four points.
It was TD or bust. Manning when out there and drove the team 83 yards for the winning score including an insane play for the ages that will still be playing on a loop in 50 years when they show old highlights.
Manning DESERVED the MVP.
I actually made this case - above - last night with Law over Brady in 2002.
Law was the superior player in that game - by far. He had a pick six and was enormously instrumental in the Pats suffocating that Rams explosive O.
And that's the bigger question on that play. It's not whether Samuel should have picked it off. He certainly should have. The question is could he have gotten both feet in bounds because he was so close to the sidelines.
But I know, you guys will chalk that up as "an excuse".
Let’s be honest. The football gods were on Eli’s side for the go ahead drive that day.There was some serious serendipity going around. Samuel had a near interception. And then the play to Tyree. It was a drive that epitomized the saying - “sometimes it’s better to be lucky than good...”
It sort of reminded me of Brady getting the MVP in 2002 versus the Rams. He didn’t deserve it. That Pats D threw an absolute gem that day. Ty Law got totally screwed out of the MVP.
The better case for Eli was 2012.
Do these football Gods ever work against Eli?
Definitely yes. And that has manifested itself in the way ownership and management have failed in building a consistently good team the last eight years.
I like to think that over the years I've been as objective as possible with Eli. Early on I backed him up when everybody wanted him run out of town, and I've been willing to acknowledge the decline in his play and the need to move on in recent years.
Objectively, it's unbelievable to me that anyone would view his performance in 42 as something other than incredible.
How does one drop a ball that he gets nothing but a fingertip on??
Do you know what a dropped ball even fucking is?
Bunch of biased, blind motherfuckers
Ridiculous.
But I know, you guys will chalk that up as "an excuse".
Fyi, Plax said Steve Smith is the one who ran the wrong route.
Manning took full advantage of it when the opportunity was presented, and he should, does, and will get credit for it.
The SB MVPs are a non-factor. If Tuck won one of them, I don't think Manning would have been slighted, and I don't it would change his HOF creds.
The biggest knock on Manning is he was good in an era of very good play. Brees & Brady have been consistently very good, and frequently great. His brother was the same. Rodgers also to some extent.
Manning also runs up against Roethlisberger who's been equally successful, and has dipped his to into a level above Manning.
The question is, did Eli not play well enough to get it? A lot of players can make arguments that they could have been the MVP - but because others can say they could have been MVP doesn't (or at least in a sane world - shouldn't) discredit Eli from being awarded it.
I do agree with you there - I just think where we might disagree is that I think there is almost a presumption of a "tie goes to the QB" when there are multiple worthy candidates. That isn't to state that Eli wasn't deserving, but that there were others there were also worthy. Had Tuck won, and I think most fans, if they're being honest, would have found it perfectly reasonable for him to win, Eli would only have one SB MVP instead of two. And thus, if his HOF case is so heavily leveraged to that one accomplishment (which I don't even necessarily think is fair, per se), it is worth noting that there were a few other Giants who could have won the SB MVP that day.
Had one of them one the MVP instead of Eli, does Eli's HOF candidacy materially change? And if so, how can anyone use that as the sole determinant (as so many posters have in this thread and previous debates on this topic) of Eli's HOF worthiness?
He's either a HOFer or he's not, but to pin it entirely on the back of how a group of media members voted on one solitary day seems a bit silly to me.
QB's are going to be the focal point of most games, so I understand how they have more MVP's. But the cases where a QB who gets the award and didn't do much to earn it should be the ones scrutinized, not the ones where eli definitely had the evidence to support winning them.
But I know, you guys will chalk that up as "an excuse".
Totally agree with this. Eli was incensed. Had Samuel actually made that INT, I think the blame would have justifiably fallen on Tyree for running the wrong route.
I see a lot of hand wringing and arguing, but I honestly don't waste a lot of time worrying about it.
I like to think that over the years I've been as objective as possible with Eli. Early on I backed him up when everybody wanted him run out of town, and I've been willing to acknowledge the decline in his play and the need to move on in recent years.
Objectively, it's unbelievable to me that anyone would view his performance in 42 as something other than incredible.
Who said Eli didn't play well in the game?
His performance, however, was less significant that day than what the defense did, specifically that DL. They dialed it up to hold a historic offense, and a team that was undefeated to 14 points, on a neutral site. And this was a month after getting torched at home for 38.
It's less about Eli and more about recognizing, really, the more incredible performance.
There was nothing difficult about the catch. He misjudged it a little. Maybe he was worried about staying in bounds. But it never got to that point because he dropped it.
A confident guy with good hands? He'll tell you he catches that all day.
Nobody in front of him. He saw the ball. It was a soft throw. He wasn't even running. It was right at him. He had to jump straight up. No adjustment. Ball is in front of him. He sees it the whole way. Just jump straigh up. That doesn't make it diffcult.
Gets two hands on it? Right.
Easy catch!!
I've heard the samuel play referred to as an easy catch - usually by KWALL.
Maybe easy for Tyree or Manningham.....
It was not either an easy catch nor a dropped pass. It was a high ball that a DB makes a great attempt on just to barely make contact with - and who would've come down out of bounds.
But when people say eli was a "game manager" in that playoff run, I expect nothing different than that fucked up take.
As I mentioned earlier, I think that is why he failed to make the catch. He was too concerned about his body position. And for a split second took his eye off the ball to begin trying to execute getting his feet down.
But Samuel should have had it. His reaction validates it.
Espn...
USAtoday...
Instead, the ball went through Samuel’s hands, and on the very next play Manning hit Tyree down the middle for what has now become known as the infamous “helmet catch.”
Kyle Brady..."it was a very catchable ball"
Adalius Thomas..."Asante dropped the interception"
Asante Samuel...."I dropped an interception. I think I mistimed the jump. I didn't jump high enough."
Like I said. anyone calling Manning a glorified game manager during the super Bowl runs is not a person with very good perception.
On the top screen you can see he sees the ball. He stops and has time to get ready to jump. Its coming at him but he misjudged it a little. He said he was worried about the sideline so he didn't jump higher.
In the same position, he makes the catch all day. He blew it.
I posted the fucking video. We all can see through horseshit. Well, those of us who don't cling to old agendas and shitty takes.
This has nothing to do with Manning. Its about a guy catching a ball. He should have caught.
I also think the Welker drop wasn't tough. But at least he had to adjust. And reach back. But he had time to do it but blew it.
Samuel? It was easier than the Welker play. Much easier.
They're all blind and biased MFers!!!
But the interception wouldn't have been Eli's fault. He actually would have been off the hook because Tyree ran the wrong route.
Just a fucking bizarre take. Then and today.
An easy catch where the DB jumps, is on the sidelines and barely touches the ball. Riiiight.
Eli's probably getting in, he's got the two improbable rings and the compilation of stats.
What could hinder him is the painfully inconsistent stretches, ordinary record, and absolute head-scratching decision making all too often, during the regular seasons.
bw in dc : 1:40 pm : link : reply
is that Fat-Mara is going all out here to protect Eli from criticism on the play with his "this wasn't an easy catch" routine.
The great irony here is two posters who claim to be quite good at watching the sport really have no fucking clue what an easy catch is.
Notice that neither the fans no the Giants on the sidelines seem remotely shocked that Samuel didn't catch it.
The guy who claimed Eli was a game manager? He's shocked.
Color me un-shocked....