Your most compelling argument why Eli is never enshrined.

who are supposed to be learned about the game; who should know that these, wouldas, shouldas and couldas happen in every single game ever played and often multiple times.

This is ridiculous and inane. This is what I always expect from the casual fan who don’t delve deeply into a game as we ostensibly do..

That’s all I have to say. Outta here..

but the degree of difficulty in that pass was being thrown to his opposite shoulder, creating a body control maneuver that affected the end result.

Samuel's a DB, most of them have shite for hands.

C'mon...Stop it. Some of you please step back and try to have some self awareness. Think about where you are posting. Think about what you are saying and how you are perceived. The lynchpin of Eli's greatness is whether or not Samuel dropped a difficult or easy interception, that's where we are? We basin' the HoF on that? Hey...Fuck you, you fraud, you are not a NY Giants fan, just sayin' That's my take.

The narrative is of course that Eli is sloppy with the football.

But do people care to acknowledge that Eli threw to a spot expecting Tyree to be there and Tyree simply wasn't? Eli was as demonstrative after that play as you'll ever see him.

In comment 14452285 JonC said:

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but the degree of difficulty in that pass was being thrown to his opposite shoulder, creating a body control maneuver that affected the end result. Samuel's a DB, most of them have shite for hands.

Samuel actually had good hands. Led the league in INTs twice. And had 51 career INTs. Which is why he knows he should have made that catch. Again, whether he gets his feet down or not is a different question...

I totally agree. I think Welker makes that catch 93X out of 100. But he did get twisted up in the air because Brady slightly misfired.

In comment 14452313 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14452285 JonC said: Quote: but the degree of difficulty in that pass was being thrown to his opposite shoulder, creating a body control maneuver that affected the end result. Samuel's a DB, most of them have shite for hands. Samuel actually had good hands. Led the league in INTs twice. And had 51 career INTs. Which is why he knows he should have made that catch. Again, whether he gets his feet down or not is a different question... I totally agree. I think Welker makes that catch 93X out of 100. But he did get twisted up in the air because Brady slightly misfired.

That high pass in the biggest game in the sport, I don't think Samuel catches it half out of a hundred.

that the description is as an easy drop, despite visual evidence indicating otherwise. Why? Because some posters still hold this play as evidence Eli was lucky.

But - You can bet any amount of money here on what would be said if that's Tyree missing the ball.

"Eli missed a wide-open Tyree!!"
"Eli threw another patented uncatchable high ball"

The consistency in driving home a narrative knows no bounds, nor rationality.

if Samuel had good, even ordinary hands, he'd be playing WR.

was one that hit him in the hands as if he were the receiver.

I don't think that was a great throw. Eli has a history of missing high when he misses. But that wasn't an easy INT.

seemingly very apparent:

Quote:

But that wasn't an easy INT.

My wonderment about that play is why do some continue to argue vehemently that it was an easy catch.

What is the motivation??

It isn't that hard. Clinging to terrible takes is rampant. KWALL has repeatedly referred to Eli as a game manager for the SB runs and even made the infamous parallel that Mark Sanchez played just as well. And then you have bw. Nuff said.

In comment 14452354 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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seemingly very apparent: Quote: But that wasn't an easy INT. My wonderment about that play is why do some continue to argue vehemently that it was an easy catch. What is the motivation?? It isn't that hard. Clinging to terrible takes is rampant. KWALL has repeatedly referred to Eli as a game manager for the SB runs and even made the infamous parallel that Mark Sanchez played just as well. And then you have bw. Nuff said.

I suspect the motivation might be to troll you. I remember how I felt watching those SBs, I cannot imagine any real Giant fan watching those games(and playoffs) and thinking, Eli is a game manager equivalent to Mark Sanchez. Preposterous.

In comment 14452311 Chris684 said:

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The narrative is of course that Eli is sloppy with the football. But do people care to acknowledge that Eli threw to a spot expecting Tyree to be there and Tyree simply wasn't? Eli was as demonstrative after that play as you'll ever see him.

That's been acknowledged above. Several times.

I think Eli would be off the hook if Samuel came down with the ball because Tyree blew his assignment.

Eli Manning.

It can't be argued and a place like BBi makes it so obvious.

You have guys that "LOL" at the thought of Eli having a sub .500 record while the thought makes the rest of us want to puke.

You have people who admittedly are still mad at hime for not wanting to go to San Diego. Imagine a "Giants fan" feeling that way?

What kind of Giants fan tries to diminish Eli's Super Bowl 42 performance?

the root cause is generally one person with a point that's a little on the extreme side, and the response is someone overcorrecting with a post that's too far the other way.


Just like you can point to posters who probably don't like Eli and actively look to marginalize him, you can certainly also point to posters who would put him on the same level as QBs who have had better careers and overreact when questioned.

yep! It is probably why I'm drawn to these discussions like a moth to a flame.

I don't want to miss the punchline that we've all been punked.

Just never understood why anyone would go on long debates about Eli being a game manager in the SB runs. Or trying several tacts to de-emphasize anything he did in the road to two titles.

Maybe it isn't a troll job, but if not, quite a few posters just stubbornly stand by some shitty takes. My favorite posts were ones saying guys like Josh Freeman or Derek Carr are better than Eli based on one decent year.

and zero SB wins...

In comment 14452449 Chris684 said:

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Eli Manning. It can't be argued and a place like BBi makes it so obvious. You have guys that "LOL" at the thought of Eli having a sub .500 record while the thought makes the rest of us want to puke. You have people who admittedly are still mad at hime for not wanting to go to San Diego. Imagine a "Giants fan" feeling that way? What kind of Giants fan tries to diminish Eli's Super Bowl 42 performance?

I am not diminishing Eli's performance at all in SB 42. He played very well.

But I am tacking and saying there was a more historical performance on the other side of the ball, the D, and Tuck, IMV, should have been the MVP instead. You would think with some of these retorts that I am suggesting Ty Warren should have been the MVP.

And I've been consistent with my position because I said Ty Law should have been the MVP in SB32 when the Pats beat the Rams and Brady was incorrectly awarded the MVP.

I have never said Eli is a game manager, root for a his career W/L to be .500 or <, etc.

But I admit I did not like how the Mannings and Condon handled the 2004 draft. It was the height of arrogance and reeked of Archie protecting his youngest son. And that totally flew in the face of what Peyton did six year earlier. He was more than willing to play for the hapless Colts in '98 and even told Polian that he looked forward to "kicking his ass" every time the he played the Colts if another team - ironically it would have been San Diego! - drafted him. So I never understood what the hell changed...

they would have won the MVP. There wasn't. It was one of the best team defense performances in a superbowl ever. If the defense had made the stop at the end instead of giving up a TD maybe you see Tuck win it. They didn't so they gave it to Eli who had the game winning drive. I can't believe this is so controversial.

To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.

performances Eli has had a very mediocre career over 14 seasons, not hall of fame material as far as I'm concerned, he lacked any consistency at all...

From the top angle, you see he saw the balll. Gathered him self to jump. Bounced once and then jumped. He misjudged it a little. He could have gone higher.

The soft toss bounced off his hands. Any guy who can can catch would tell you he catches that ball all day. It was right at him.

But we got it wrong. All of the writers got it wrong. His teammates were wrong even the ones talking about it years later. Hell he did he dropped it. He’s wrong too.

that is catching a football.

or not. Again, if he had good hands he'd be playing WR.

about Samuel not making the pick here?

feet in bounds. And we'll never know because he barely did as is. People talk about woulda, coulda, shoulda, all day. It didn't happen. Those plays happen all the time in football.

Playing WR it is much easier to judge balls than being a dback. There is so much more you need to react to including the WR when the WR only needs to concentrate on catching the ball.

In comment 14452606 JonC said:

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about Samuel not making the pick here?

For KWALL to shit on eli for 16 consecutive years. Nothing more or less.

In comment 14452605 JonC said:

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or not. Again, if he had good hands he'd be playing WR.

That's as silly as saying people play WR because they can't tackle or cover.

There are some great players who played in the secondary with great hands - Sanders, Green, Law, Reed, both Woodsons, etc.

Kids that wind up playing defense tend to do so because they're better suited there. WRs whose hands and skills (ball skills, eye skills, positional instincts, body control, footwork, timing, route tree command etc) don't grow enough are often converted to DB.

This stuff is common knowledge if you've played organized football.

In comment 14452637 JonC said:

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Kids that wind up playing defense tend to do so because they're better suited there. WRs whose hands and skills (ball skills, eye skills, positional instincts, body control, footwork, timing, route tree command etc) don't grow enough are often converted to DB.

I get what you are saying to a degree. But it's just not right to say that corners/DBs are just faild WRs.

Deion Sanders influenced a generation of players who solely wanted to play corner. It's a marquee position that has considerable influence the game - both from the impact on a game and the impact on the cap.

.

In comment 14452639 JonC said:

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This stuff is common knowledge if you've played organized football.

This is a refrain I've heard from people that played pre 2000-ish. This has changed greatly in the last 20 years. Actually, it is much more difficult to find guys that can cover and do all things a dback is responsible for than guys who can play WR. Covering someone man to man, being able to find and locate the ball and adjust on the fly is much more difficult that knowing the route and where the QB is going with the ball. In college a lot of times, if that guy is a truly special player they find ways to incorporate him into offense.

or the Welker no catch, for me it offset the lack of holding calls on NE in the first SB, and the shitty holding call on interior OL in the second.

He has played behind a bad OL for years and needs at least a decent OL to perform well.

The press doesn't like him.

Being Peyton's brother doesn't help.

If he takes the Giants deep into the playoffs with excellent play then he has a chance. Another Super Bowl would help a lot.

I love Eli and it is a shame that the last half of his career has been wasted behind a bad OL.

I hope Eli lands on a good team in 2020 with a chance to win.

Skill positions on offense remain the premier positions imv. Speed and athleticism have certainly increased on defense, the game has evolved into a speed game all over the field.

have always been on the scouting profile. Teams will always try to insert a sick athlete on offense. They just typically already play offense.

In comment 14452673 JonC said:

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Skill positions on offense remain the premier positions imv. Speed and athleticism have certainly increased on defense, the game has evolved into a speed game all over the field.

If I was coaching a college team and I had a kid that was going to be a superstar WR vs superstar CB. I'm pushing that kid to play CB, it is a harder position to fill with good players and it enables you to do so much on defense. But it really comes down to the scarcity issue. Easier to find good WR's than CB's. I agree though it is very different skill set. Samuel had to do something that looks routine for WR's, high pointing a ball he can barely get to as is and getting his feet in bounds. Not something that he practices all that often while WR's probably do drills like that everyday.

I've heard and read coaches who feel the same, typically they're defensive coaches.

The Giants took advantage when the breaks fell their way.

It's not unequivocal Samuel or Welker should or should not have made each play. Each would have been a great play if made and would have been the story if so.

No matter the above that doesn't diminish the subsequent plays Manning made in those games.

The difference very often in a close game is who takes advantage of the breaks. Doing so is not a guarantee or a given.

For me the more interesting question is, say the Pats do make one of those plays, is Manning not Hall worthy?

he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick...

:-)

In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said:

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he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick... :-)

Or the WR running the wrong route. :)

In comment 14452764 dep026 said:

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In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick... :-) Or the WR running the wrong route. :)

How does that help him get into the HoF?

In comment 14452770 Jimmy Googs said:

Quote:

In comment 14452764 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick... :-) Or the WR running the wrong route. :) How does that help him get into the HoF?

Because if he run the right route and catches it... there’s no miracle tyree play :)

In comment 14452584 dep026 said:

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To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players.

Proving TTH's point.

Who's dismissing Eli here?

In comment 14452782 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14452584 dep026 said: Quote: To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players. Proving TTH's point. Who's dismissing Eli here?

You can’t see people diminishing his award or the semantics of a stupid play?

Shocked! I’d tell ya...

In comment 14452791 dep026 said:

Quote:

In comment 14452782 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14452584 dep026 said: Quote: To dismiss one of their teams most iconic players. Proving TTH's point. Who's dismissing Eli here? You can’t see people diminishing his award or the semantics of a stupid play? Shocked! I’d tell ya...

That's not what you said. You said dismiss.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I wouldn't be surprised either way with Eli, if he gets in or doesn't. And I do think that Tuck should have gotten the MVP in SB42 even though I do think Eli was plenty deserving himself. Does that mean that I'm dismissing him in your view?

Not everything is as binary as it seems like you're making it out to be.

In comment 14452774 dep026 said:

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In comment 14452770 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: In comment 14452764 dep026 said: Quote: In comment 14452751 Jimmy Googs said: Quote: he tends to throw too high and that same tendency kept the Giants from losing that Superbowl on a potential Samuel pick... :-) Or the WR running the wrong route. :) How does that help him get into the HoF? Because if he run the right route and catches it... there’s no miracle tyree play :)

Too high per posts above to catch

The ball away mid throw which is why he didn't get it far oob. His intended target was Smith, Smith ran a different route than what the defensive coverage
Dictated.

This information came from the spike Lee short about the great pass\receptions that Eli has been a part of. Also some of this information came from the Gary Meyers hosted show which had Manning, Manningham, Tyree, and Beckham.