A few reasons that stick out to me why:
1. Saquon Barkley. You get this guy a little bit of a hole and he's gone. He combines power , speed, vision and cutting ability like few that have ever played the game. We saw what he did behind a mess of an OL for much of the year.
2. The OL is significantly improved . Barring catastrophic injuries, Not one guy in theory who would be considered potentially atrocious for his position. Last year Omameh Wheeler and Flowers all played horribly. Combine that with injuries to our starting OC a rookie LG in Willie and Solder starting slowly, it was a recipe for disaster.
3. 2 Outside recievers who are plus plus run blockers in Shep and Tate. It was important to replace OBJ with a quality WR who is also a plus run blocker. Tate has a little more build to him than OBJ too so he may be a little more stout in this department as well. We saw countless amazing blocks on most of SBs big runs last year by Shephard.
4. Second year in the system. This is a very underrated factor here. With the new CBA the practice times and installs have been compromised. It is very hard to get a team to gel in a system and run it on all cylinders in year 1. Combine this with more tweaking of the offensive personnel than an overhaul and many of the players have a full year of familiarity with Shurmurs offense already under their belt.
5. Shurmur is very strong in run concepts. We saw it in Minnesota especially with Dalvin Cook's rookie season. Had Dalvin stayed healthy the whole year his numbers would have been eye popping. A lot of the blocking concepts and playcalls when he has good OL (or an OL playing cohesively unlike ours last year) seem to create favorable mismatches and open some pretty good holes for the RBs. Imagine this with Saquon now that the OL looks to be improved across the board?
6. Eli Manning's smarts and audibles at the line . Eli is very good at reading a D and adjusting to a run if the defense is susceptible to it. In year 2 of Shurmurs system he will be even better at it.
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Zeitler is absolutely one of the best guards in the league and there’s no reason to think otherwise.
Pro Bowls: 0
All Pro: 0
cuz these matter...
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In comment 14452379 GothamGiants said:
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Zeitler is absolutely one of the best guards in the league and there’s no reason to think otherwise.
Pro Bowls: 0
All Pro: 0
cuz these matter...
While it's an absurd "argument", at least Greg is attempting to counter with football relevant topics. It's a step in the right direction.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
loved the rod smith signing ... nice battering ram for short yardage/Barkley change-of-pace - and he doesn't fumble, like Gallman does (and apparently already did in OTAs. His ball security has been atrocious in the NFL)
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really like that they picked him up as well. they have a very talented backfield.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
loved the rod smith signing ... nice battering ram for short yardage/Barkley change-of-pace - and he doesn't fumble, like Gallman does (and apparently already did in OTAs. His ball security has been atrocious in the NFL)
did shurmur like running any 2-back sets in minny? Saquon and Smith in the same backfield could lead to some interesting matchups and play calling.
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But I would be shocked if an OT wasn't taken within the first 2-3 rounds next April.
That's what I said about last April.
I think they probably wanted to do that this year, but the pieces just didn't quite fall that way - and I'd not have wanted Gettleman to force it.
I think they knew back at draft time that Remmers was going to sign as a stopgap and I think they're comfortable with he and Solder being the bookends for 2019.
It becomes more "must" than "should" next year.
I think cluster drafting in the secondary wasn't a bad idea, though. We were really thin back there and now we have some actual depth.
We should be set at both guard spots for a bit and Solder/Remmers will be fine for 2019. Like I said, I'd like to just cut Solder after next year. And I do think next draft is going to be very trench-heavy.
I expect an average OL this year. Which will be enough for Barkley to have another phenomenal year and shouldn't get Eli/Daniel killed.
It won't be good enough to really dominate or totally dictate play the way the elite OL's in this league do - but I think we're getting closer. We're in a much better place now along the line than we were a couple years ago.
I see a ~.500 football team here right now - but I think 10+ wins is absolutely possible and should be the goal for 2020 and beyond.
This should be the last phase of the "rebuild" - next season, I want the Giants to have their sights set on winning the division and hopefully more.
I'll obviously hope that all happens a year early, as I think the 2019 Giants should be more watchable. We just don't have all the horses we need just yet.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
Because the job isn't complete. Because they're gambling on Halapio becoming a legitimate starter at Center, and Remmers playing Right Tackle as good as he did two years ago, and everyone staying healthy in the process.
Because saying that every team struggles to find quality O-Line depth (and let me know when you've researched ever other NFL team) so it's fine that the Giants don't have it is a cop-out. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
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In comment 14452383 Greg from LI said:
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In comment 14452379 GothamGiants said:
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Zeitler is absolutely one of the best guards in the league and there’s no reason to think otherwise.
Pro Bowls: 0
All Pro: 0
cuz these matter...
While it's an absurd "argument", at least Greg is attempting to counter with football relevant topics. It's a step in the right direction.
here's an argument, have you or him seen the guy play?
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really like that they picked him up as well. they have a very talented backfield.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
Because the job isn't complete. Because they're gambling on Halapio becoming a legitimate starter at Center, and Remmers playing Right Tackle as good as he did two years ago, and everyone staying healthy in the process.
Because saying that every team struggles to find quality O-Line depth (and let me know when you've researched ever other NFL team) so it's fine that the Giants don't have it is a cop-out. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
you are not very pleasant to converse with. I never said it was fine, simply acknowledging its not unique to our team. can you provide and example of a team that would satisfy your criteria of sufficient o line depth?
I for one am much more comfortable with our O-line depth chart than I have been in many years.
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In comment 14452463 2cents said:
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really like that they picked him up as well. they have a very talented backfield.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
Because the job isn't complete. Because they're gambling on Halapio becoming a legitimate starter at Center, and Remmers playing Right Tackle as good as he did two years ago, and everyone staying healthy in the process.
Because saying that every team struggles to find quality O-Line depth (and let me know when you've researched ever other NFL team) so it's fine that the Giants don't have it is a cop-out. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
you are not very pleasant to converse with.
Oh, puh-leeze. What are you, twelve?
Why should I? You're the one who claimed the lack of quality depth was "an issue for everyone." Why don't you prove that?
Considering what our O-Line depth chart has looked like for the past seven years or so, that isn't saying much. But, hey, as long as you're comfortable I guess that's all that really matters, right?
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In comment 14452505 Klaatu said:
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In comment 14452463 2cents said:
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really like that they picked him up as well. they have a very talented backfield.
in regards to o line depth: is there one team in the league that has good to great o line back ups? seems to me that is an issue for everyone. they brought in 2 new starters this offseason, 1 of which is a consensus top 5 at his position over the last few years. i dont understand what there is to be upset about?
Because the job isn't complete. Because they're gambling on Halapio becoming a legitimate starter at Center, and Remmers playing Right Tackle as good as he did two years ago, and everyone staying healthy in the process.
Because saying that every team struggles to find quality O-Line depth (and let me know when you've researched ever other NFL team) so it's fine that the Giants don't have it is a cop-out. Frankly, I'm tired of hearing excuses.
you are not very pleasant to converse with.
Oh, puh-leeze. What are you, twelve?
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I never said it was fine, simply acknowledging its not unique to our team. can you provide and example of a team that would satisfy your criteria of sufficient o line depth?
Why should I? You're the one who claimed the lack of quality depth was "an issue for everyone." Why don't you prove that?
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I for one am much more comfortable with our O-line depth chart than I have been in many years.
Considering what our O-Line depth chart has looked like for the past seven years or so, that isn't saying much. But, hey, as long as you're comfortable I guess that's all that really matters, right?
haha cheers man, go giants.
Next year expect them to use at least one premium pick on an offensive lineman as next year's crop is considered deep at the top.
Let that sink in.
Good post. Hernandez played well 2nd half, Solder played well and Zietler is excellent thats 3/5 of the line. Pio had the highest grade of all our OL in game 1 and highest grade game 2 until he got hurt. Small sample size but DG and Shurmur obviously see something there. Remmers knows both Shurmur and Shulas systems and is going back to the position he plays best.
We may not be the best OL in the entire NFL or even the best in the division but we are very likely going to be markedly better than the one we saw in the second half of last season which was borderline adequate (and we saw how just borderline adequate opened things up for Barkley and Eli).
Let that sink in.
The Giants were the highest scoring team in the division last year.
Let that sink in.
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Have the worst OL in the division on paper despite all of this hype about best OL in 8 years.
Let that sink in.
The Giants were the highest scoring team in the division last year.
Let that sink in.
The Giants won 5 games last year.
Let that sink in.
I appreciate the Pom Pom waving but this group has a lot to prove before anyone fires up the hype machine.
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In comment 14452703 WillVAB said:
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Have the worst OL in the division on paper despite all of this hype about best OL in 8 years.
Let that sink in.
The Giants were the highest scoring team in the division last year.
Let that sink in.
The Giants won 5 games last year.
Let that sink in.
I appreciate the Pom Pom waving but this group has a lot to prove before anyone fires up the hype machine.
They have much less to prove on the offensive end than they do on the defensive end. Your beef above centered around the offense.
The rest of the division has depth players who would start here.
The Cowboys and Eagles had injuries well into the season last year and still managed to win playoff games with their lines.
This is such a delusional post I don’t even know where to begin. Peters is hurt? Ok, they just drafted the best LT in the draft.
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In comment 14452703 WillVAB said:
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Have the worst OL in the division on paper despite all of this hype about best OL in 8 years.
Let that sink in.
The Giants were the highest scoring team in the division last year.
Let that sink in.
The Giants won 5 games last year.
Let that sink in.
I appreciate the Pom Pom waving but this group has a lot to prove before anyone fires up the hype machine.
The offense was not the issue, it was the defense.
- And the offensive line is a lot better than last year. So, it can be the “worst OL in the division” and still be more than enough to win.
I forgot anything remotely positive on here is “Pom Pom Waving” - just started a fact. Have a lovely evening.
The second half offense over 8 games was very very good. Sure they had a stinker in there as most teams do if you want to single out games.
Chicago Bears (3rd ranked defense) - 30 points
Indianapolis Colts (11th ranked defense) - 27 points
Dallas Cowboys (7th ranked defense) - 35 points
Btw, Tennessee was 3rd in the league for defensive points per game. 7th overall. Do i need to post the weather report from that day?
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against tennessee. Didn't that loss effectively finish off any remaining chances they had of reaching the playoffs?
Chicago Bears (3rd ranked defense) - 30 points
Indianapolis Colts (11th ranked defense) - 27 points
Dallas Cowboys (7th ranked defense) - 35 points
Btw, Tennessee was 3rd in the league for defensive points per game. 7th overall. Do i need to post the weather report from that day?
Thank you
It's not going to be formidable because teams will stack the box and the QB will have to ake plays throughout the season. Opposing teams are going to stack the box and challenge GMEN ot beat them in the air.
It's not going to be formidable because teams will stack the box and the QB will have to ake plays throughout the season. Opposing teams are going to stack the box and challenge GMEN ot beat them in the air.
Let me guess
“Defenses are gonna watch film, key on Barkley, and force someone else to beat them” ?
The giants scored 40, 27, and 35 points in the games Barkley faced the most stacked boxes. Barkley compiled ~400 yards and 3 rushing TDs in those games. Odell was not on the field.
Yes, defenses will stack the box. Just like they did last year.
Numbers - ( New Window )
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Peters can't stay healthy, and Brooks is coming off a torn achilles in December. The Cowboys are relying on Frederick to come back from autominnue disease where he couldn't even work out, and Tyrone Smith has recurring back problems. The Redksins had like 14 offensive lineman play last year due to injury. Yeah on paper the names are better, but injuries change things on a dime in the NFL.
The rest of the division has depth players who would start here.
The Cowboys and Eagles had injuries well into the season last year and still managed to win playoff games with their lines.
This is such a delusional post I don’t even know where to begin. Peters is hurt? Ok, they just drafted the best LT in the draft.
The rest of the division has depth players who would start here? Like who? Dallas offensive line actually took a big step back this year. Lael Collins had a disappointing year. Connor Williams ditto. The Redskins absolutely fell apart after 3 of their starting olinemen went down midseason. The Eagles better hope Dillard is the answer because Peter's looks cooked. Brooks is a huge loss and he got hurt super late in the season.
Next year the offensive line class is poised to be much better. We could use upgrades at RT and C..plus hopefully a guy that will take over for Solder. I'd bet dollars to donuts that gets addressed next year. This team isn't built to contend in 2019. Why the urgency to fix the offensive line with players they didn't think we're as good of as others on the board is how you end up with Erik Flowers and Eli apple.
How’d the Giants manage to score so many points in the games without Beckham and Barkley seeing the most stacked boxes of the season (weeks 14, 16, 17)?
The Giants happen to have a RB who was: 2018’s 2nd leading rusher, leader in scrimmage yards, leader in 20+ yard runs, leader in 40+ yard runs, and the NFL’s leader in broken tackles ... as a rookie.
And the OL will be better.
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I think our run game will be stronger but it will also be hampered by the loss of Beckham as a deep threat. No one fears our WRs. They feared Beckham.
How’d the Giants manage to score so many points in the games without Beckham and Barkley seeing the most stacked boxes of the season (weeks 14, 16, 17)?
The Giants happen to have a RB who was: 2018’s 2nd leading rusher, leader in scrimmage yards, leader in 20+ yard runs, leader in 40+ yard runs, and the NFL’s leader in broken tackles ... as a rookie.
And the OL will be better.
Those teams were in awful spots. Extraploting from 4 games against what other teams were circling as a win is a fools errand. The cowboys literally had nothing to play for and didn't even turn on the intensity till halfway through the 4th. It's why we should be encouraged about Shurmur because he had the team playing hard and ready out the gate in what was a loss cause.
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In comment 14453007 TD said:
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I think our run game will be stronger but it will also be hampered by the loss of Beckham as a deep threat. No one fears our WRs. They feared Beckham.
How’d the Giants manage to score so many points in the games without Beckham and Barkley seeing the most stacked boxes of the season (weeks 14, 16, 17)?
The Giants happen to have a RB who was: 2018’s 2nd leading rusher, leader in scrimmage yards, leader in 20+ yard runs, leader in 40+ yard runs, and the NFL’s leader in broken tackles ... as a rookie.
And the OL will be better.
Those teams were in awful spots. Extraploting from 4 games against what other teams were circling as a win is a fools errand. The cowboys literally had nothing to play for and didn't even turn on the intensity till halfway through the 4th. It's why we should be encouraged about Shurmur because he had the team playing hard and ready out the gate in what was a loss cause.
I extrapolated nothing. Those stats are from the 16 game season. The specific games I mentioned were played under the exact circumstances the previous poster mentioned : no Odell and stacked fronts.
Barkley is incredible. The OL is better. He, and the running game, will be “formidable”.
He is a big play machine who is also the most elusive RB in the game (20+, 40+, broken tackle leader) ... a “stacked box” does not stop him.
Zeitler is the better player, and the far superior pass blocker, but he's not leaps and bounds better of a run blocker than Jamon Brown.
I posted this in a previous thread but worth mentioning again; Remmers coming off surgery Solder coming off surgery, Halopio coming off a missed year, Zeitler new system.
Don't be surprised if this o-line isn't dynamite coming out of the gate and doesn't gel as well as the line that played 8 straight games together to finish last year.
Zeitler is the better player, and the far superior pass blocker, but he's not leaps and bounds better of a run blocker than Jamon Brown.
I posted this in a previous thread but worth mentioning again; Remmers coming off surgery Solder coming off surgery, Halopio coming off a missed year, Zeitler new system.
Don't be surprised if this o-line isn't dynamite coming out of the gate and doesn't gel as well as the line that played 8 straight games together to finish last year.
Solders is a clean up. Surgery is surgery but about as minor as they get.
Remmers wasn't signed until they were comfortable with what they saw.
Herny, Pio, Zietler all healthy.
Lets see when we get to Aug how healthy they are. Then we can be concerned if need be
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The Giants need to improve running the football to be average. As good as Barkley was, the Giants were a bottom 3rd rushing team.
Zeitler is the better player, and the far superior pass blocker, but he's not leaps and bounds better of a run blocker than Jamon Brown.
I posted this in a previous thread but worth mentioning again; Remmers coming off surgery Solder coming off surgery, Halopio coming off a missed year, Zeitler new system.
Don't be surprised if this o-line isn't dynamite coming out of the gate and doesn't gel as well as the line that played 8 straight games together to finish last year.
Solders is a clean up. Surgery is surgery but about as minor as they get.
Remmers wasn't signed until they were comfortable with what they saw.
Herny, Pio, Zietler all healthy.
Lets see when we get to Aug how healthy they are. Then we can be concerned if need be
It's not about health in August, it's about missed reps in the offseason and missed reps together. Effectively 3/5 of the line will be new -- and as the Giants have proven repeatedly over the last 10 years, continuity is as important as talent upfront.
The Giants were a bad running team with arguably the best running back in the league. Really think about that.
Before they are formidable, they need to get to average. And that will require markedly improved blocking.
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The 2nd most impt position on OLINE is RT. ANd the 3rd msot is center. And we have THREE new OL this year - you can;t count Hap.
It's not going to be formidable because teams will stack the box and the QB will have to ake plays throughout the season. Opposing teams are going to stack the box and challenge GMEN ot beat them in the air.
Let me guess
“Defenses are gonna watch film, key on Barkley, and force someone else to beat them” ?
The giants scored 40, 27, and 35 points in the games Barkley faced the most stacked boxes. Barkley compiled ~400 yards and 3 rushing TDs in those games. Odell was not on the field.
Yes, defenses will stack the box. Just like they did last year. Numbers - ( New Window )
If you want to believe the last few weeks meant anything -- go ahead.
Why do you think the other teams did it?
The Giant Homer doesn't care. Not does the Giant Homer care that they were a 5-11 team last year that 4 of their wins were against backup QB's. The Giant Homer thinks the backup QB's and Starting QB's for the other team were about even anyways. The Giant Homer thinks the opposing team stacked the box for little-to-no reason.
I applaud your extreme homerism this offseason. You're posts are very entertaining for a team that is a 6-10 caliber team. Next offseason I'll be on aboard with your extremism provided Jones looks at least "pretty good."
In the meantime, please continue with your off-season homerism posts. It provides enthusiasm before he games start and gives other homer fans the hope before reality sets in and at best we are 7-9.
I'm predicting 6-10 and 5-11 and the best thing about next year;s team is that they will show they are consistently inconsistent. And next year will get more homerism posts from you but probably with a little more teeth based on reality and not homerism.
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Peters can't stay healthy, and Brooks is coming off a torn achilles in December. The Cowboys are relying on Frederick to come back from autominnue disease where he couldn't even work out, and Tyrone Smith has recurring back problems. The Redksins had like 14 offensive lineman play last year due to injury. Yeah on paper the names are better, but injuries change things on a dime in the NFL.
The rest of the division has depth players who would start here.
The Cowboys and Eagles had injuries well into the season last year and still managed to win playoff games with their lines.
This is such a delusional post I don’t even know where to begin. Peters is hurt? Ok, they just drafted the best LT in the draft.
Yup. The Eagles added Dillard the best LT in the draft in the first round, and Dallas added a "starter" rated OG/OC in Conner McGovern out of PSU.
We got George AA, who is the essential "wing and a prayer" to ever be a starting OL at any position. Admittedly, he has a lot of athletic upside, but still...
Dallas and Philly absolutely have back up OLs who would start for the Giants.
But we got Barkley, and he does make an OL better, or at least look better, by a significant margin.
Gettleman better start feeding that OL pipeline in 2020. Or we can pray for a miraculous transformation from Wheeler - it's possible, just unlikely.
This OP is way over-optimistic, and seeing the world through blue tinted glasses in May.
year out of Eli . The defense will take some time to
get going and define themselves with a fairly easy
schedule in the beginning . I expect an even better year
for Barkley he is as dedicated as they come and
Myles Jack is still looking for his jock strap .
I was so excited just to see him in pre-season
this year is gonna be special . May we stay healthy and
get a few breaks be disciplined not to make the dumb
penalties anything can happen.
The issue in the 2nd half especially was defense not offense. And the running game was a big part of the 2nd half success.
Now do certain things mainly health have to fall into place for this OL to be above average or better? Yes . But contrary to doom sayers there is reason for optimism. We are no longer relying on Omameh and Flowers on the right side. And Zietler might be the best player on the the entire OL.
The issue in the 2nd half especially was defense not offense. And the running game was a big part of the 2nd half success.
Now do certain things mainly health have to fall into place for this OL to be above average or better? Yes . But contrary to doom sayers there is reason for optimism. We are no longer relying on Omameh and Flowers on the right side. And Zietler might be the best player on the the entire OL.
You're quoting a useless stat and believe it has meaning. What you call "doomsayers" some of us call"realists."
Someone who can be borrowed in practice at little time cost to the home unit.
O-line injuries are a big potential problem, especially at tackle. Hoping that at least one prospect can develop and that Wheeler can be an effective swing tackle.