A few reasons that stick out to me why:
1. Saquon Barkley. You get this guy a little bit of a hole and he's gone. He combines power , speed, vision and cutting ability like few that have ever played the game. We saw what he did behind a mess of an OL for much of the year.
2. The OL is significantly improved . Barring catastrophic injuries, Not one guy in theory who would be considered potentially atrocious for his position. Last year Omameh Wheeler and Flowers all played horribly. Combine that with injuries to our starting OC a rookie LG in Willie and Solder starting slowly, it was a recipe for disaster.
3. 2 Outside recievers who are plus plus run blockers in Shep and Tate. It was important to replace OBJ with a quality WR who is also a plus run blocker. Tate has a little more build to him than OBJ too so he may be a little more stout in this department as well. We saw countless amazing blocks on most of SBs big runs last year by Shephard.
4. Second year in the system. This is a very underrated factor here. With the new CBA the practice times and installs have been compromised. It is very hard to get a team to gel in a system and run it on all cylinders in year 1. Combine this with more tweaking of the offensive personnel than an overhaul and many of the players have a full year of familiarity with Shurmurs offense already under their belt.
5. Shurmur is very strong in run concepts. We saw it in Minnesota especially with Dalvin Cook's rookie season. Had Dalvin stayed healthy the whole year his numbers would have been eye popping. A lot of the blocking concepts and playcalls when he has good OL (or an OL playing cohesively unlike ours last year) seem to create favorable mismatches and open some pretty good holes for the RBs. Imagine this with Saquon now that the OL looks to be improved across the board?
6. Eli Manning's smarts and audibles at the line . Eli is very good at reading a D and adjusting to a run if the defense is susceptible to it. In year 2 of Shurmurs system he will be even better at it.
Yes and no. It will but barring crazy injuries 3 of our OL are in their 2nd year in the system now.
Solder and Hernendez and Pio (though it was an abbreviated season for him he played alot in preseason and in training camp).
The other 2 guys are a very highly level vet in Zietler and another vet in Remmers that is familiar with Shurmurs system .
So while there may be an acclimation period it should not be as dramatic as what we saw last year.
It will take time to gel but not as long as you expect. Veterans like Zeitler and Remmers will gel faster than rookies. It will help a great deal that Remmers is familiar with Shurmur and Shula's scheme. Shula was Remmers OC for all three years in Carolina and for a year when Shurmur was the OC in Minnesota.
Solder and Hernandez have already spent a year together and has also worked with Halapio last offseason, preseason, and for the first two games last season. The line should be one sound cohesive unit before the season starts.
I liken Golden Tate to Steve Smith in that both are hard-nosed, in your face receivers that want a play to succeed even if their number isn't called. Transport that quality to Shep and our WR3.....and we will be seeing a good number of runs to the house.
I am saving Giantz_comeback's post for later in the year because if all his/her points come in to play, all the pundits will be switching their tune mid-season!
There's way too much pessimism on BBI.
I liken Golden Tate to Steve Smith in that both are hard-nosed, in your face receivers that want a play to succeed even if their number isn't called. Transport that quality to Shep and our WR3.....and we will be seeing a good number of runs to the house.
I am saving Giantz_comeback's post for later in the year because if all his/her points come in to play, all the pundits will be switching their tune mid-season!
The thing that stuck out to me on some of Saquons big runs last year especially 2nd half is when the OL opened up a clear hole for him he looked like he was shot out of a cannon. And he was so sudden and so fast the secondary D couldn't even get a good enough angle on him and it was off to the races.
The jitterbug runs at the line of scrimmage were great and entertaining but when he had a true hole to run through....wow.
Imagine an OL that actually blocks with a little more consistency? It is scary to think what his impact could be. Then the playaction game or quick passing game off of that with 2 receivers that are very good at getting quick seperation?
we also need to bleed the clock like crazy to keep our defense off the field for as long as possible. I don't see this unit being that much improved from last year (although I think they'll be better in 2020).
How many OLs in the league have "quality depth"? 2?
we also need to bleed the clock like crazy to keep our defense off the field for as long as possible. I don't see this unit being that much improved from last year (although I think they'll be better in 2020).
In this passing era I would normally hate that approach too. But our RB is a generational talent so rare in terms of the gamechanging ability that that approach can actually work if utilized properly.
Lets not pretend we arent going to throw the ball either. It just might be less than most other teams but with Barkley back there, a sound OL, and sound run concepts....its going to be a sight to see.
Lol not many teams have great depth at OL. Heck most teams starters are questionable lol
Wheeler has flashed and is prob better at LT than RT. Weve got Pulley, Evan Brown and a bunch of hopefuls Paul Adams, George, O'hagan (sp?) Mihalik was our first team in OTA and maybe he looked good....
we also need to bleed the clock like crazy to keep our defense off the field for as long as possible. I don't see this unit being that much improved from last year (although I think they'll be better in 2020).
It's actually a good strategy when so many defenses are now built to defend the pass and feature a lot of lighter/more mobile front 7 players.
If you attack some of these teams with a power running game, they're just not equipped to match up that way and you can wear them down.
Everything should be built around Barkley.
Engram averaged 80 yds a game when Shurmur figured out how to use him and/or went to him more in the 2nd half after OBJ went down.
Tate is a pretty good WR himself. We may not have a pure deep threat of OBJ but there are weapons here.
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God help us if any of the starters goes down for an extended length of time.
Lol not many teams have great depth at OL. Heck most teams starters are questionable lol
Wheeler has flashed and is prob better at LT than RT. Weve got Pulley, Evan Brown and a bunch of hopefuls Paul Adams, George, O'hagan (sp?) Mihalik was our first team in OTA and maybe he looked good....
Am I supposed to take you seriously when you talk about a Left Tackle looking good in an OTA, with no pads, no hitting?
Whistling Past The Graveyard
- but people will always find a way to complain about something.
Solder, Hernandez, Halapio, Zeitler, Remmers is a remarkable improvement from 2017 (and prior) OLs.
- but people will always find a way to complain about something.
Solder, Hernandez, Halapio, Zeitler, Remmers is a remarkable improvement from 2017 (and prior) OLs.
Whoop Dee Doo.
But, as I said above, God help us if any of our starters goes down for an extended period of time.
Yes but as another poster above pointed out you can make that statement just about any team in the league. Most teams don't have average or better starters at each position let alone a line up of back ups who will light it up if inserted either. The starters look better than anything weve had the last 7-8 years. Now just how good they can be is still TBD but the lineup look a whole lot better than last years unit.
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
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Which lead to even poorer play? How about we stop trying to rationalize why our offensive line is sub-par by saying well, every other team's O-Line isn't all that great, either? How about we demand excellence from the Giants' brain-trust and stop settling for mediocrity?
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
The team has plenty of speed at WR in Corey Coleman and rookie Darius Slayton. Speed is not the issue, their ability to play WR is.
Engram is prolly the fastest TE in the league, and is still improving.
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In comment 14452248 Klaatu said:
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Which lead to even poorer play? How about we stop trying to rationalize why our offensive line is sub-par by saying well, every other team's O-Line isn't all that great, either? How about we demand excellence from the Giants' brain-trust and stop settling for mediocrity?
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
The rest of the guys mentioned are nothing more than hopes and prayers... And quite frankly so are Remmers and Halapio, who are both likely below average at best OL and both coming off injuries.
No doubt, we should be better than last season... AND Gettleman can't do it all in a single off-season... BUT building a legitimate Top-10 OL for Saquon Barkley as well as our aging and/or rookie QB should be a priority in next offseason, IMHO
The rest of the guys mentioned are nothing more than hopes and prayers... And quite frankly so are Remmers and Halapio, who are both likely below average at best OL and both coming off injuries.
No doubt, we should be better than last season... AND Gettleman can't do it all in a single off-season... BUT building a legitimate Top-10 OL for Saquon Barkley as well as our aging and/or rookie QB should be a priority in next offseason, IMHO
Even as a pessimist take 3/5 of our line are guys that should be solid to better than that. Solder, Hernandez and Zietler. You want to say Pio and Remmers stink? Remmers 3 year grades at RT were right at league average or even slightly above. That is a decent sample size.
Pio is more on faith in what a guy with a good track record at OL sees.
Last year we got gashed not because of average play but atrocious line play in not one but multiple spots for much of the year. It totally sabotaged what we could do week in and week out.
Many are walking so scarred that they think we need an all pro at each position now otherwise we are going to stink...
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In comment 14452257 Giantz_comeback said:
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In comment 14452248 Klaatu said:
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Which lead to even poorer play? How about we stop trying to rationalize why our offensive line is sub-par by saying well, every other team's O-Line isn't all that great, either? How about we demand excellence from the Giants' brain-trust and stop settling for mediocrity?
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
Zeitler is a good RG, and he's definitely an upgrade over Brown, but he's hardly one of the best OG's in the league. Can we stop overvaluing our players, too?
Regardless, Gettleman still passed up the chance to get some top-tier offensive line talent in this last draft, gambling on Jon Halapio to do okay at Center and Mike Remmers to do okay at Right Tackle. Hopefully they will because, for the third time, the Giants have little or no quality depth backing them up.
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In comment 14452271 Klaatu said:
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In comment 14452257 Giantz_comeback said:
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In comment 14452248 Klaatu said:
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Which lead to even poorer play? How about we stop trying to rationalize why our offensive line is sub-par by saying well, every other team's O-Line isn't all that great, either? How about we demand excellence from the Giants' brain-trust and stop settling for mediocrity?
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
Zeitler is a good RG, and he's definitely an upgrade over Brown, but he's hardly one of the best OG's in the league. Can we stop overvaluing our players, too?
Regardless, Gettleman still passed up the chance to get some top-tier offensive line talent in this last draft, gambling on Jon Halapio to do okay at Center and Mike Remmers to do okay at Right Tackle. Hopefully they will because, for the third time, the Giants have little or no quality depth backing them up.
Did you see the condition of the defense last year? He allocated based on priority. No matter what he wasn't going to be able to make a premium pick at every position he would have liked to. Yes, we need them to stay healthy this is certainly true. However this is the state almost every team out there is in.
I also didn't say anything about the other three guys... Solder is an average OL who struggled in the 1H but played much better in the 2H (likely when he started to gel with Hernandez and started to get a better feel for what Eli could do inside the pocket vs Brady)... Zeitler and Hernandez should be good to very good OGs this year...
And no one is saying that we need 5 All-Pros... We don't have a single Pro Bowler let alone All-Pro... Maybe our two OGs will be this season? Maybe our OL will be the best in the NFC East rather than the worst (which they have been for a while)? My point was simply that we should strive to improve this unit next offseason particularly as we build around Barkley and our young QB
Rome wasn't built in a day...
I'm not enough of an expert, but one thing I'm going to try to learn this year is how to understand offensive systems enough to explain why some are successful with brand new coaches and some are not.
Even with talent, our offense started out putrid last year. Really abysmal. You can blame it entirely on the OL, some blame it on Eli. I don't know who to entirely blame it on, we really, really struggled.
I don't have as much hope as I would like for the early part of the year. Facing a couple of tough defenses we are set to hear excuses throughout September about how we need time for the OL to gel or whatever.
Not sure about that. Some offensive philosophies seem to work quicker and some take more time. I just want to understand more about Shurmur's and how it contrasts with those who are successful right away.
it's going to take the O-line quite awhile to gel. And they don't have much depth.////////
Yes and no. It will but barring crazy injuries 3 of our OL are in their 2nd year in the system now.
Solder and Hernendez and Pio (though it was an abbreviated season for him he played alot in preseason and in training camp).
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In comment 14452271 Klaatu said:
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In comment 14452257 Giantz_comeback said:
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In comment 14452248 Klaatu said:
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Which lead to even poorer play? How about we stop trying to rationalize why our offensive line is sub-par by saying well, every other team's O-Line isn't all that great, either? How about we demand excellence from the Giants' brain-trust and stop settling for mediocrity?
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
Zeitler is a good RG, and he's definitely an upgrade over Brown, but he's hardly one of the best OG's in the league. Can we stop overvaluing our players, too?
Regardless, Gettleman still passed up the chance to get some top-tier offensive line talent in this last draft, gambling on Jon Halapio to do okay at Center and Mike Remmers to do okay at Right Tackle. Hopefully they will because, for the third time, the Giants have little or no quality depth backing them up.
Zeitler is absolutely one of the best guards in the league and there’s no reason to think otherwise.
Pro Bowls: 0
All Pro: 0
DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
Zeitler is a good RG, and he's definitely an upgrade over Brown, but he's hardly one of the best OG's in the league. Can we stop overvaluing our players, too?
Regardless, Gettleman still passed up the chance to get some top-tier offensive line talent in this last draft, gambling on Jon Halapio to do okay at Center and Mike Remmers to do okay at Right Tackle. Hopefully they will because, for the third time, the Giants have little or no quality depth backing them up.
Did you see the condition of the defense last year? He allocated based on priority. No matter what he wasn't going to be able to make a premium pick at every position he would have liked to. Yes, we need them to stay healthy this is certainly true. However this is the state almost every team out there is in.
Enough with the excuses. Enough with the rationalization. Either it was a priority or it wasn't, and obviously it wasn't, not compared to drafting Eli's successor and going hot and heavy on defense. Okay, fine, but that's the hill the brain-trust chose to die on, and whether or not it was a smart choice remains to be seen.
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Zeitler is absolutely one of the best guards in the league and there’s no reason to think otherwise.
Pro Bowls: 0
All Pro: 0
Lol because that is the end all be all for the quality of a player? You could consitently be between the 3rd 4th or 5th best player out of 32 teams and never go to a pro bowl.
This unit is improved - not completed.
This unit is improved - not completed.
This^^^
Yes, he can absolutely be 1 of the best guards in the NFL with no “honors” to his name.
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DG said OL is a priority and has spent the last 2 years addressing it.
Clearly, it wasn't a priority in the 2019 draft, where he waited until the 7th Round to draft an offensive lineman.
Yet he got one of the best OGs in the league prior to the draft.
Zeitler is a good RG, and he's definitely an upgrade over Brown, but he's hardly one of the best OG's in the league. Can we stop overvaluing our players, too?
Regardless, Gettleman still passed up the chance to get some top-tier offensive line talent in this last draft, gambling on Jon Halapio to do okay at Center and Mike Remmers to do okay at Right Tackle. Hopefully they will because, for the third time, the Giants have little or no quality depth backing them up.
Did you see the condition of the defense last year? He allocated based on priority. No matter what he wasn't going to be able to make a premium pick at every position he would have liked to. Yes, we need them to stay healthy this is certainly true. However this is the state almost every team out there is in.
Enough with the excuses. Enough with the rationalization. Either it was a priority or it wasn't, and obviously it wasn't, not compared to drafting Eli's successor and going hot and heavy on defense. Okay, fine, but that's the hill the brain-trust chose to die on, and whether or not it was a smart choice remains to be seen.
We are in the Salary cap era. Last year he gave out the biggest contract ever to a LT, then gave a 15 mill contract on a guy that didnt unfortunately work out, then spent our top of 2nd rd pick on an OL. This year He went and traded for an established top OG, tried for the best RT available (D Williams) and then signed one with familiarity with both Shurmur or Shula. This is in the midst of addressing many other positions of great importance all the while trying to do it under tight salary cap considerations.
Can you nitpick and argue he could have done more? Maybe. But then a whole bunch would be complaining about the other positions that were neglected to put even more resource than he already did into the OL.
This unit is improved - not completed.
Don't assume that they'll complete the job in 2020. They might fall in love with a WR, or an ER, or a LB...who knows? And who knows when they'll be picking and who will still be on the board? Too many variables.
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2020 is the target for the OL.
This unit is improved - not completed.
Don't assume that they'll complete the job in 2020. They might fall in love with a WR, or an ER, or a LB...who knows? And who knows when they'll be picking and who will still be on the board? Too many variables.
Well, I didn't assume that - I just said it was the target. I think it is.
Of course, that could change. But I would be shocked if an OT wasn't taken within the first 2-3 rounds next April. We'll find out how much of a need OC is this year depending on how passable (or unplayable) Pio winds up being.
We're going to need two tackles, really. But we might be able to make it work by getting one in 2020 and then Solders replacement in 2021. I'd even consider cutting Solder after this year - it will save us 14M if I remember right.
From there, the name of the game will be depth and finding replacements before we're in Code Red territory again - which is how Reese allowed the entire unit to fall apart by being not nearly proactive enough.