Many of us seem to be expecting the team to start slow as the young guys adjust and the o-line gels and we're hoping the team ends strong.
They probably won't make the playoffs but could be in the hunt, which would be an improvement.
That said, what do you think is this team's upside? Playoffs? Win a game in the playoffs? Something more?
I think if things break their way they could make the playoffs and win one game. How about everyone else?
Until proven otherwise though, I still think this is a 4-6 win team.
2018 Floor - 49ers
Either a young team that really starts to gel and push for a playoff spot at the end of the year with a lot of hope for the next season. Or a young team that flashes and struggles with consistency with a lot of hope for the next season.
It also wouldn’t shock me if everything clicked and they go 10-6, splitting with DAL/PHI
Most likely something in between, 7-9/8-8 type season. I like where this team is heading, 2020 is my year for legit playoff contention with another solid draft and a splash or 2 in free agency (Clowney, Daryl Williams/La’el Collins) + a stud WR for Jones in round 1.
I sat out in that Titan game in the rain (which was the worst weather game I have ever sat through in going to games since 1987). The Titans just pounded the ball over and over and over. Played conservative offense and physical defense. It was throwback football to the 1980s Giants.
The Giants are not talented enough to make noise in the playoffs, but if things break right, they can get to the playoffs and get bumped in the Wild Card.
I sat out in that Titan game in the rain (which was the worst weather game I have ever sat through in going to games since 1987). The Titans just pounded the ball over and over and over. Played conservative offense and physical defense. It was throwback football to the 1980s Giants.
The Giants are not talented enough to make noise in the playoffs, but if things break right, they can get to the playoffs and get bumped in the Wild Card.
The possibility is the 1984 Giants who squeaked into the playoffs, beat the favored Rams at LA and lost an actual struggle with the Niners
I think the upside is a lot higher than most as a result.
Ballin'!
Defensively can we get some pressure and will we stop the run. I am confident in the latter.
Question is will be able to play make minimal mistakes on offense. We will be a plodding O for most of the year with calculated deep strikes...ie set up the pass with the run. Eli can not be inaccurate nor throw dumb picks.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Ding ... and that Bills D coming to town is no joke
- I expect the Giants to win, but it’s going to be a lot closer/uglier than people want to admit. Their pass defense is elite.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Seriously? They lost some of their best players. A lot of question marks remain. It is perfectly reasonable to expect they will not be better this year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Less talent at WR and ER, key positions in pro football.
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More games than last year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Seriously? They lost some of their best players. A lot of question marks remain. It is perfectly reasonable to expect they will not be better this year.
The only “loss” that will be felt is Odell
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the past few years. They are going to limit the QB play to short passes and focus on pounding the ball. They are going to build a physical offensive line to control the ball and hope the defense gels and plays well. This is probably a 6-10 or 7-9 team right now, and with the right breaks can go 9-7 and be in the playoff hunt.
I sat out in that Titan game in the rain (which was the worst weather game I have ever sat through in going to games since 1987). The Titans just pounded the ball over and over and over. Played conservative offense and physical defense. It was throwback football to the 1980s Giants.
The Giants are not talented enough to make noise in the playoffs, but if things break right, they can get to the playoffs and get bumped in the Wild Card.
The possibility is the 1984 Giants who squeaked into the playoffs, beat the favored Rams at LA and lost an actual struggle with the Niners
I'd love to see it. The obvious difference in 1984 was that Giants defense started to gel as all their young top players all came together (LT, Marshall, Kinard, Banks and Reasons were rookies who were playing). And Simms took control of the team finally and the Giants actually threw the ball a ton, Joe Morris didn't really establish himself until later in the season.
I can actually see a 1984 type occurrence more in 2020 as Jones takes over, the defense with all these young guys starts to gel and the light goes on finally.
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In comment 14454864 Ivan15 said:
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More games than last year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Seriously? They lost some of their best players. A lot of question marks remain. It is perfectly reasonable to expect they will not be better this year.
The only “loss” that will be felt is Odell
I think that the loss of OBJ is well balanced by...well, balance. But also by bigger receiving roles for Engram and Barkley.
I can't see them doing any better than that, and even that would take pretty much everything going right.
Even better in 2020.
Even better in 2020.
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More games than last year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Less talent at WR and ER, key positions in pro football.
In his three-year stint with the Giants, Olivier Vernon played an average of 13 games per year (16, 12, 11), starting every game he played in. He averaged 43 tackles and 7 sacks per year. In those three years he also had 1 interception, 2 passes-defended, and he forced 3 fumbles.
In his rookie year, Lorenzo Carter appeared in 15 games with 2 starts. He racked up 43 tackles, 4 sacks, and 4 passes-defended. Presumably, with the absence of Vernon, Carter's role will be expanded this year. The addition of Golden aside, are we really losing that much production off the edge going from Vernon to Carter? Sure, stats don't tell the whole story, but they do tell part of it. As with Landon Collins, Vernon has regressed every year since 2016. I don't think we'll miss him all that much.
As for WR, no question we traded away our most talented guy, and I doubt any single WR on the roster now will come close to matching Beckham's production. However, it's not up to any individual WR to try and make up for Beckham's absence. It's up to the corps as a unit to make the most of their opportunities when they're called on to do so, the same way the RB's made up for the absence of Tiki "60% of the offense" Barber a dozen years ago.
Lack of talent at WR and EDGE is definitely a valid concern. I think they can potentially break even this season but these two glaring holes are what will keep them out of playoff contention.
I expect that to be a different story in 2020 though.
We will score points, but can the Defense stop the other teams. That was the case last year.
either way I just hope were playing meaningful games late into the year rather than hanging on the edge of being mathematically eliminated from contention by week 6.
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More games than last year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Less talent at WR and ER, key positions in pro football.
How are they worse at ER? Everyone here hated Vernon when he played and he missed virtually half the games last year. The team was scoring points with Beckham doing more work on Instagram than on on the field, in December.
If we get 14 games out of Tate and he does what he does we aren’t worse at wr. We’re actually better since Beckham missed around 16 games over the last 2 seasons. We aren’t replacing 2015 Beckham. Let’s not forget that.
We’re a better, deeper and more cohesive team going into 2019. And we’re facing a manageable schedule.
I should have said Rams 1999, Pats were 2001
It's not like the team has gotten any better this offseason.
It's not like the team has gotten any better this offseason.
Really?
I fell like it's gotten waaay better. Biggest weak points from last season to me were OL and secondary. OL had people who should not be playing in the NFL plus rookie feeling hsi way plus a tackle learning a new team and playing next to a rookie. They already showed signs of gelling. Now you add two established vets with one being arguably a star and that seems way improved to me.
Last year's secondary was playing only journeymen at best or UFDa's. This year they have high draft picks. Seems much better to me.
I'm expecting a much improved run game and much better coverage (secondarily more "coverage" sacks) at the very least.
If the team plays to there potential 11-5 is not beyond reason. Last season the secondary was a liability, this season I can see 49er like turn around with all the young additions. The Giants are the great unknown to the pundits because all they see is no OBJ, Vernon and Collins. What will be revealed is that they are a team not a group of a few stars.
Watch for the rise of the new beast in the east. Only then will those who laugh at DG having no plan will be proved foolish forced to eat crow.
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In comment 14454864 Ivan15 said:
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More games than last year.
The o-line is improved and the secondary can’t be any worse.
Less talent at WR and ER, key positions in pro football.
How are they worse at ER? Everyone here hated Vernon when he played and he missed virtually half the games last year. The team was scoring points with Beckham doing more work on Instagram than on on the field, in December.
If we get 14 games out of Tate and he does what he does we aren’t worse at wr. We’re actually better since Beckham missed around 16 games over the last 2 seasons. We aren’t replacing 2015 Beckham. Let’s not forget that.
We’re a better, deeper and more cohesive team going into 2019. And we’re facing a manageable schedule.
Which of the edge rushers we have now was better than Vernon though? Do you think that Vernon required double teams at times? Which of our edge rushers now will command that kind of attention? I don't see any.
Same with Beckham. Who's double or triple-covering Tate or Shepard? Who is game-planning for them? Who is our bonafide deep threat? We don't have one. And yes, while they scored a good deal of points in three games without Beckham in the fold, they were also shut out in one. You can spin that in a few different ways but lets not pretend like it doesn't matter.
Maybe Shurmur and Bettcher will find a way to make it work without these pieces. Maybe Golden will return to form. Maybe Lorenzo Carter and Evan Engram will take a big step.
These are all maybes though. As it stands right now, WR and EDGE are holes and its hard to win without them - unless you can figure out some way to over-compensate elsewhere.
On offense, the revamped OL and SB will create more offense including in the red zone. But, there's no WR back there now that puts fear in the defense and keeps the DC up at night trying to gameplan.
On offense, the revamped OL and SB will create more offense including in the red zone. But, there's no WR back there now that puts fear in the defense and keeps the DC up at night trying to gameplan.
Yet in Shurmurs system and with Barkley garnering much attention the passing game was quite good without OBJ. Now add Tate and they aren't all stars per se but steady vets who gain separation and should continue to be productive.
But, Carter still has to demonstrate he can read keys and hold down his edge versus the run consistently. He still has to develop the quick twitch recognition that will get him to the QB and become an 8, 10, 10+ sack ER. Same for the others who have basically good to promising but non-impact NFL players. Golden has to show he's past the ACL at level where produces more than 2.5 sacks. Martin and the others are basically strong side ends not so much pass rushers.
Tate has been a productive but mercurial NFL player. He'll have games where you're shaking your head wondering where his is. And, he'll have really good games where you're wondering why it's not more often. Those 60+ yard slant TDs are gone.
If all the stars align in the positive, playoffs.
If all the stars align in the negative, another top 10 first round pick.
It also wouldn’t shock me if everything clicked and they go 10-6, splitting with DAL/PHI
Most likely something in between, 7-9/8-8 type season. I like where this team is heading, 2020 is my year for legit playoff contention with another solid draft and a splash or 2 in free agency (Clowney, Daryl Williams/La’el Collins) + a stud WR for Jones in round 1.
Jones could potentially be seeing his first action in 2020. I’m not so sure we’ll be that much better in 2020 either, but the foundation of the team should be solid. Success in 2020 is riding on Jones’s arm.
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
I'd say thats the max
there also exists the possibility of 0-16
maybe this crew plays there hearts out and goes on a roll
We dont know.....we cant even name half the roster
Yup, he gets any kind of injury during training camp or pre-season and the team is in panic mode.
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
Division winner requires they better the Eagles and Cowboys and I just don't see that happening this season.
The wide receivers are a big question mark and there is still a lack of pass rush. I think they would be surpassing expectations if they reached 8-8.
But I really like and believe in them, so I'll go 9-7 as "realistic upside" watermark.
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
You really think this team is a *little* luck from competing for a championship?
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Super Bowl (with a little luck).
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
You really think this team is a *little* luck from competing for a championship?
and gelling on both sides of the ball I think the early
games where the schedule is not brutal and we could get
off to a quick start we could slip into the playoffs
of course there are injuries and playing disciplined .
Hopefully the 2nd and 3rd year players ascend and
the rookies have an impact .
I don’t think we’ve got the personnel right now to do that.
But we will in 2020.
Less talent at WR for certain.
But less talent at ER/OLB - why? Because OV was on the roster? He sucked. He sucked and was hurt half the year. I don't know Markus Goldman at all and Carter needs to get better fast, but I do not think they have less at ER...at worst it is even.
I do agree they could be a 6 win team, but with a better OL, and likely better DL, I think it is an eight win team.
I feel really strongly that this could be like the 02 team when they were gutted by FA but ended up a lot better that year than they were supposed to be (or even the 2000 team that had solid core of talent that finally put it together).
This could be one of those teams where halfway through the year everyone pretends like they thought they were going to be really good the whole time. Sort of when the Eagles took off two years ago they didn’t have a lot of expectations and all of a sudden by week 9 they were talked about like a perennial 10 year contender.
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but they're less talented at WR and ER, and all the new parts will require time for cohesion to build. Probably a 6-win team with the needle pointing up.
Less talent at WR for certain.
But less talent at ER/OLB - why? Because OV was on the roster? He sucked. He sucked and was hurt half the year. I don't know Markus Goldman at all and Carter needs to get better fast, but I do not think they have less at ER...at worst it is even.
I do agree they could be a 6 win team, but with a better OL, and likely better DL, I think it is an eight win team.
Vernon was easily their best and most effective pass rusher. You can be mad he was always hurt, and that can color your opinion, but he didn't suck. Making him out to be Clint Sintim is dumb. When he played he was effective. 21 hits on the QB in 11 games and 7 sacks was by far the best on the team and it wasn't particularly close.
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In comment 14455081 Milton said:
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Super Bowl (with a little luck).
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
You really think this team is a *little* luck from competing for a championship?
In May of 2007 and May of 2011, nobody was predicting a winning season, let alone Super Bowl contention. A little luck can go a long way!
This roster has a fraction of the talent of the 2007 on defense. It's insulting to compare rosters with Strahan and Umenyiora with this roster and say they're a little bit of luck away.
While w/l record is defining, i would add not always. our 11/5 record did say what kind of the team the giants were, a lucky, finesse team then that quickly receded in face of age and lack of talent. We are becoming a football team because we have football players. Coaches and players must develop into a team that can grow. We can dominate an opponent and work our will. Footballs bounce funny and refs have too much influence. but we are on our way with a “transformed Giants football” team.
The Giants defense isn’t in that universe yet.
Those teams had significant talent, and arguably underachieved early in the season and put it all together at the end.
This team has significantly less talent then those teams, and most importantly the QB is a decade older.
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In comment 14454722 JonC said:
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but they're less talented at WR and ER, and all the new parts will require time for cohesion to build. Probably a 6-win team with the needle pointing up.
Less talent at WR for certain.
But less talent at ER/OLB - why? Because OV was on the roster? He sucked. He sucked and was hurt half the year. I don't know Markus Goldman at all and Carter needs to get better fast, but I do not think they have less at ER...at worst it is even.
I do agree they could be a 6 win team, but with a better OL, and likely better DL, I think it is an eight win team.
Vernon was easily their best and most effective pass rusher. You can be mad he was always hurt, and that can color your opinion, but he didn't suck. Making him out to be Clint Sintim is dumb. When he played he was effective. 21 hits on the QB in 11 games and 7 sacks was by far the best on the team and it wasn't particularly close.
Yup. To see it otherwise tells me you don't know what you're watching.
Martin, Olsen, Golden, and Bathea all have concerns.
Bettcher had the one pretty productive year, but I frankly don't see him as a high potential coordinator.
That's a nice concise snapshot Y.
IMO you have to add in the obvious Peppers vs Collins, and some one or two from among the puppies at CB - most likely Beal and Baker.
But the the biggest single key is the revamped OL and the health of that group. When one considers Barkley's 2018, and the praise lavished on Halapio and the upgrade Zeitler brings to RG...
One can imagine Barkley going "wild" in year 2. I'm thinking 1600+ yards rushing and 1000+ receiving, if the OL stays healthy and Hernandez and Halapio are upgrades over themself and their replacement respectively.
I have to pinch myself to remind myself that Barkley did a LOT of what he did last year ON HIS OWN. I think back to Eric Dickerson predicting Barkley will struggle behind the Giants' OL in 2018, and then what Barkley actually did against the odds, then reconsider what the heck Barkley might do in 2019....
There's some crazy stat from PFF about what Barkley gained after contact last year... Now imagine him running through legitimate holes this year, or catching screens with OL in front of him who play well in space...
Not to mention if Tate is an upgrade over OBJ blocking at the 2nd level or downfield.
The downside I think is that our OL depth is paper thin, and we need SB healthy all 16 games.
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In comment 14455081 Milton said:
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Super Bowl (with a little luck).
Likely? Division Winner.
Floor? 8-8 (if injuries are problematic).
You really think this team is a *little* luck from competing for a championship?
In May of 2007 and May of 2011, nobody was predicting a winning season, let alone Super Bowl contention. A little luck can go a long way!
This is wrong. Especially the 2011 giants. Where do you get this stuff?
This is wrong. Especially the 2011 giants. Where do you get this stuff?
There were no high hopes going into 2007 and 2011. I'm sure the BBI archives will back me up if somebody should feel motivated enough to do the digging.
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In May of 2007 and May of 2011, nobody was predicting a winning season, let alone Super Bowl contention. A little luck can go a long way!
This is wrong. Especially the 2011 giants. Where do you get this stuff?
Who was predicting success? Tom Coughlin ended both 2006 and 2010 (despite the 10-6 record) on the hot seat with plenty of people calling for his head. As for 2011, it began with all the usual questions about the OL and injuries to Steven Smith and Terrell Thomas. They finished 9-7 but it was good enough to win the division (thanks to a costly overthrow by Tony Romo) and then they got hot in December and January. I'm optometrist by nature but those were two of the years in which I was least so, mainly due to question marks along the OL.
There were no high hopes going into 2007 and 2011. I'm sure the BBI archives will back me up if somebody should feel motivated enough to do the digging.
I remember the sentiment going into 2007 questioning whether Coughlin could ever get a team over the hump, and whether his act had grown tired. He had consecutive playoff exits in the first round, and Barber among others had noted his style as an issue.
But I don't think talent or leadership was a huge question going into 2007. The Giants had a young QB with 2 playoff seasons under his belt, plenty of vets at the top of their game, and two franchise leaders in Toomer and Strahan.
There's basically nothing on this roster or regime that compares to 2007.
I remember the sentiment going into 2007 questioning whether Coughlin could ever get a team over the hump, and whether his act had grown tired. He had consecutive playoff exits in the first round, and Barber among others had noted his style as an issue.
But I don't think talent or leadership was a huge question going into 2007. The Giants had a young QB with 2 playoff seasons under his belt, plenty of vets at the top of their game, and two franchise leaders in Toomer and Strahan.
There's basically nothing on this roster or regime that compares to 2007.
I'm not saying the Giants didn't have huge questions going into '07 -- I'm saying those questions were dramatically different than this year. That team was viewed as talented and underachievers.
All I am saying is the questions going into this year are much different, and that this is a far less talented, and less accomplished group.
Coughlin had several years with more wins than Shurmur's career total. Manning was in his mid 20s, had 2 playoffs games under his belt, and played really well against Philly. Tuck, Robbins, Osi, and Strahan were a known very good pass rushers. Burress and Toomer were an established, effective pair. The offensive line had two new starters, both of whom had been on the team previously and logged many games etc. etc.
and then there's realistically, if things all go well, how far can this team go?
what can go well?
-the OL gels, the QB puts in solid production, and the WR/TE put up good numbers, while Barkley has a stellar year. A decent O that eats up the clock and doesn't go 3 and out all the time. Not batshit crazy to think it is possible.
- D is going to require a lot of going well. but, we were in a lot of games as time was winding down that the D blew. Just being a hair better wins us a bunch of games. Maybe it's unrealistic to expect the fart to smell like lollipops and roses, but it doesn't have to be a fart that clears the room, either. Maybe the youngsters step up to the plate. If they do, maybe the D doesn't win us games, but also doesn't lose them.
I expect a 6-8 W season. But I don't think it's whacked to see a 9 win regular season with a win in the playoffs before one of the big dogs knocks us back to Earth. the latter scenario is the upside.
So basically offensive line needs to perform, defense needs to over achieve, and I think another playmaker needs to step up on offense so its not just the Barkley show.
If they do those things they could be fighting for a wildcard spot, but I don't think this a team I'd expect to go very far in the playoffs.
Much the same as we've seen in past is what this team will be like
Team records can change a lot from season to season. Injuries and turnovers are so important, and turnovers are about one half luck of where the ball goes after it has been knocked free or batted up in the air.
Team records can change a lot from season to season. Injuries and turnovers are so important, and turnovers are about one half luck of where the ball goes after it has been knocked free or batted up in the air.
and then there's realistically, if things all go well, how far can this team go?
what can go well?
-the OL gels, the QB puts in solid production, and the WR/TE put up good numbers, while Barkley has a stellar year. A decent O that eats up the clock and doesn't go 3 and out all the time. Not batshit crazy to think it is possible.
- D is going to require a lot of going well. but, we were in a lot of games as time was winding down that the D blew. Just being a hair better wins us a bunch of games. Maybe it's unrealistic to expect the fart to smell like lollipops and roses, but it doesn't have to be a fart that clears the room, either. Maybe the youngsters step up to the plate. If they do, maybe the D doesn't win us games, but also doesn't lose them.
I expect a 6-8 W season. But I don't think it's whacked to see a 9 win regular season with a win in the playoffs before one of the big dogs knocks us back to Earth. the latter scenario is the upside.
Our team now looks better then 07 talent wise to me plus 6-8 season? What about the other two games. And I wouldn't blame pur defense blowing those last minute games when in 90% of them Eli threw a int, fumbled or just easy 3 and out first drive.... Cant blame that on D