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A cold hard look at the Giants' corps of receivers ...

Manny in CA : 6/2/2019 7:45 pm
Split - Losing OBJ (a "generational" type, even with his scrambled eggs
for brain), HURTS. Tremendously talented Corey Coleman (on his 4th team in four years) and rookie speedster Darius Slayton are the likeliest candidates/pretenders.

Slot - Having signed Golden Tate, a terrific "yards after catch" specialist, they improved what Sterling Shepard does; although Sterling is probably the better blocker. One of them will compete for the split, but neither is a natural fit over there.

Possession - Evan Engram (Pro Bowl receiver ability); 4.4 speed, lousy blocker is "stuck" at Tight End. Journey man Russell Shepard will probably get most of the snaps

Tight end - Nobody with the necessary blocking/receiving combination is in sight. Engram will take most of the snaps with JAG Rhett Ellison taking the rest
And the point is ...  
robbieballs2003 : 6/2/2019 7:48 pm : link
?

Besides leaving off other WRs on the team.
The point is ...  
Manny in CA : 6/2/2019 7:54 pm : link

Giants have a long way to go. The team is better, but forget a playoff run, for a while.
I am way more concerned about the pass rush  
Jay on the Island : 6/2/2019 8:04 pm : link
There is enough talent at WR to get by with. They don't have a true #1 WR but Shepard, Tate, Engram plus Barkley out of the backfield is enough to be a solid offense if the line plays well. Let's hope that Corey Coleman, Darius Slayton, Alex Wesley, etc surprise and become a dependable target for Eli and Jones.

If the pass rush is as bad as last season it won't matter if we have a Beckham type at WR.

I would love to give Daniel Jones a #1 WR in next years draft but the focus should still be on improving the pass rush. Even if Lorenzo Carter takes a big step forward next season they need a long term answer opposite him.
RE: I am way more concerned about the pass rush  
GothamGiants : 6/2/2019 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14461010 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
There is enough talent at WR to get by with. They don't have a true #1 WR but Shepard, Tate, Engram plus Barkley out of the backfield is enough to be a solid offense if the line plays well. Let's hope that Corey Coleman, Darius Slayton, Alex Wesley, etc surprise and become a dependable target for Eli and Jones.

If the pass rush is as bad as last season it won't matter if we have a Beckham type at WR.

I would love to give Daniel Jones a #1 WR in next years draft but the focus should still be on improving the pass rush. Even if Lorenzo Carter takes a big step forward next season they need a long term answer opposite him.


Perhaps they sign a pass rusher in free agency and then use the draft for a WR ... the 2020 class is loaded. Wouldn’t shock me if they took 2 WRs in that draft, after a couple big signings in free agency
Not an impressive bunch.  
Giant John : 6/2/2019 8:14 pm : link
Will impact our offensive production. This team had so many issues. Takes time to fix so many weaknesses.
Ellison  
fredgbrown : 6/2/2019 8:15 pm : link
I thought they signed for his blocking ability. He does catch everything thrown to him as a check down. He caught 75% and 73.3% of passes thrown his way to lead the TEs and WRs the2 years he has been here.
Scrambled eggs for brain  
BigBlueDownTheShore : 6/2/2019 8:16 pm : link
pot calling the kettle black
It’s 4,5 wr  
djm : 6/2/2019 8:17 pm : link
I’m worried about. I’m fine with 1-2-3 and Engram.
RE: RE: I am way more concerned about the pass rush  
Jay on the Island : 6/2/2019 8:21 pm : link
In comment 14461026 GothamGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14461010 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


There is enough talent at WR to get by with. They don't have a true #1 WR but Shepard, Tate, Engram plus Barkley out of the backfield is enough to be a solid offense if the line plays well. Let's hope that Corey Coleman, Darius Slayton, Alex Wesley, etc surprise and become a dependable target for Eli and Jones.

If the pass rush is as bad as last season it won't matter if we have a Beckham type at WR.

I would love to give Daniel Jones a #1 WR in next years draft but the focus should still be on improving the pass rush. Even if Lorenzo Carter takes a big step forward next season they need a long term answer opposite him.



Perhaps they sign a pass rusher in free agency and then use the draft for a WR ... the 2020 class is loaded. Wouldn’t shock me if they took 2 WRs in that draft, after a couple big signings in free agency

I'm expecting next year's 1st round pick to be an ER, WR, or OT. I would prefer a pass rusher in free agency as well with Yannick Ngakoue being my top target if he hits free agency. Next years free agent WR class is very weak but LB and ER class is pretty strong at the moment. Chances are several will be extended but there could be a few that hit the market.

The Giants have a lot of room next year and they can create even more if they cut Ogletree, Martin, Jenkins, and Ellison.
djm  
CT Charlie : 6/2/2019 8:22 pm : link
for the win. We're probably very thin.
We don't have a Beckham anymore. But we do have two pretty good  
Ira : 6/2/2019 8:34 pm : link
starters in Tate and Shepard. Engram is a very good receiving te and Barkley is a very good receiving back. Both Engram and Barkley are faster than Beckham. So while I think we will miss OBJ, having a better offensive line will do more for our passing game than Beckham did. The receivers we do have will have more time to get open.
How about they  
section125 : 6/2/2019 8:41 pm : link
have better receivers than the Patriots.
RE: How about they  
1giantblue : 6/2/2019 9:13 pm : link
In comment 14461073 section125 said:
Quote:
have better receivers than the Patriots.

I was thinking the same thing.
A cold hard look at the OP.  
81_Great_Dane : 6/2/2019 9:15 pm : link
How do you do that breakdown without giving the Giants' best wide receiver, Sterling Shepard, a position? They're not a great group but that post is spun to make them look worse than they are.

X/Split End: This is normally the team's best receiver so it's very unlikely it's going to be Coleman or Slayton. Probably S. Shepard and Tate move back and forth between slot and split end. Neither is ideal for the position, true, but speed isn't the only thing you want here. If you define this position as the "speed guy" then yeah, they look like a weak group. But that's not what the position is. And yeah, if it were, maybe it'd Slayton as the starter, but he is probably going to be a backup at both X and Z. Maybe 3rd string. Because speed alone is not what makes you an X.

Y/Tight End: Engram is mainly a tight end and a YAC big play threat. He is not is a "possession receiver," especially since he's he's had issues with drops. He's not the guy you throw to when you want a safe, move-the-chains 5-yard gain. Ellison is more that guy. If you make up a position called "possession" and put a guy with a different skillset there, yeah, it looks weak. But that's just spin.

Z/Flanker: This is the big unanswered question. Coleman? Latimer? Engram can line up here, so can Barkley, but ideally I think you want those guys in the middle of the field creating mismatches with linebackers.

On passing downs, opposing defenses potentially would have to account for S. Shepard, Tate, Barkley, Engram and whoever is playing at the Z. The Giants don't have an elite X anymore but it's not like they're lining up a bunch of scrubs.
Here’s the bottom line with this team  
djm : 6/2/2019 9:29 pm : link
The offense is fine. They have pretty good, good, very good or great starters at every position save for RT and center, at least on paper. Center seems to be at least stable if not deep. RT we’ve discussed. The offense is in fine shape barring bad luck. It’s safe to assume the offense will at the very least meet somewhere in the middle of last year’s jeckle and Hyde tale of two seasons act and it might very well meet somewhere on the better side of that. There’s good evidence to be confident in the offense.

The offense needs to hold up its end of the bargain but the big unknown is the NYG defense. Every team has holes or sore spots. You can’t have an entire unit as that sore spot. 3-4 wr? We can live with that.
...  
christian : 6/2/2019 9:33 pm : link
DJM - who do you think lands the Giants 3rd WR and what would define as a good season for that position?
I’m not really too concerned with #3  
djm : 6/2/2019 9:43 pm : link
Whoever wins that spot is likely a jag and always will be a jag. I’m fine with that. If your 1-2 are good and your TE is killing single and/or zone coverage and you have the best all around RB in football, you can live with ditch diggers at the 3-4 spot. What’s good is that there’s a lot of competition there, nearly all the guys have been in this system for a full year.

Of course we need talent there but the position overall is far from dire.

FWIW the guy I’m pulling for is Coleman. He’s the best talent but knows.
RE: I’m not really too concerned with #3  
christian : 6/2/2019 9:47 pm : link
In comment 14461168 djm said:
Quote:
Whoever wins that spot is likely a jag and always will be a jag. I’m fine with that. If your 1-2 are good and your TE is killing single and/or zone coverage and you have the best all around RB in football, you can live with ditch diggers at the 3-4 spot. What’s good is that there’s a lot of competition there, nearly all the guys have been in this system for a full year.

Of course we need talent there but the position overall is far from dire.

FWIW the guy I’m pulling for is Coleman. He’s the best talent but knows.


OK sure -- so then what would constitute really good production for the 1 and 2 and killing it for the TE?
Our third best receiving option  
djm : 6/2/2019 9:48 pm : link
Won’t be that 3-4 wr. It’s gonna come from Engram, Barkley, shep and Tate. That’s four guys right there that are fully capable of getting a lot of burn or starter attention. You also have the other TEs. And gallman and Perkins. And the FB.

Pray we don’t need that guy to get too much burn for too long. That guy needs to get 2-3-4 targets a game and we will be just fine and dandy.
RE: RE: I’m not really too concerned with #3  
djm : 6/2/2019 9:53 pm : link
In comment 14461172 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14461168 djm said:


Quote:


Whoever wins that spot is likely a jag and always will be a jag. I’m fine with that. If your 1-2 are good and your TE is killing single and/or zone coverage and you have the best all around RB in football, you can live with ditch diggers at the 3-4 spot. What’s good is that there’s a lot of competition there, nearly all the guys have been in this system for a full year.

Of course we need talent there but the position overall is far from dire.

FWIW the guy I’m pulling for is Coleman. He’s the best talent but knows.



OK sure -- so then what would constitute really good production for the 1 and 2 and killing it for the TE?


400 pts on offense is all i care about. I became obsessed with this number right around 2005. If we clip that I don’t care too much about the numbers.

With that said I don’t know, we’re gonna need to pass the ball and get downfield to score all those points so I’d think we would need to see 250 plus receptions, 2800 yards or so and 20 plus tds. If the OL protects Eli and the running game is Barkley, Eli is going to get these guys the ball. Any fan who questions Eli’s ability to deliver the ball to his WRs when he’s got time just hasn’t been paying attention. That’s all he’s done. No OL or good OL the guy has posted passing numbers every year except 2017 and 2013. He will again in 2019.
RE: Our third best receiving option  
christian : 6/2/2019 9:59 pm : link
In comment 14461175 djm said:
Quote:
Won’t be that 3-4 wr. It’s gonna come from Engram, Barkley, shep and Tate. That’s four guys right there that are fully capable of getting a lot of burn or starter attention. You also have the other TEs. And gallman and Perkins. And the FB.

Pray we don’t need that guy to get too much burn for too long. That guy needs to get 2-3-4 targets a game and we will be just fine and dandy.


What would you consider good production from those four?

Would Tate matching his average production over the last 4 years be a good for him? Would Barkley equaling his output from last year be his target?

What would be a good increase in production from Engram and Shepard be?
RE: It’s 4,5 wr  
BillKo : 6/2/2019 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14461038 djm said:
Quote:
I’m worried about. I’m fine with 1-2-3 and Engram.


It amazing how you can scheme and get average players open down the depth chart when you can block it up front.

That's essentially been our problem - we have had the flashy parts but the foundation wasn't there.
The Giants offense will be a "quick strike" WCO - passing short  
SGMen : 6/2/2019 10:23 pm : link
First, I think Eli is going to have a good season. I really do.
Second, the OL is improved and we will run the ball better.
Third, will rookie WR Slayton contribute with his speed or will he ride the bench, learning and such?
Fourth, will WR C. Coleman, who flashed at times with his speed, finally put it together and be a 3rd WR who can stretch a field?

The potential is there to have a "move the chains, control the clock" type offense but I don't think we have playmaker at WR to keep defenses out of 8 men in the box consistently enough.
RE: RE: It’s 4,5 wr  
LauderdaleMatty : 6/2/2019 10:57 pm : link
In comment 14461199 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14461038 djm said:


Quote:


I’m worried about. I’m fine with 1-2-3 and Engram.



It amazing how you can scheme and get average players open down the depth chart when you can block it up front.

That's essentially been our problem - we have had the flashy parts but the foundation wasn't there.


This. W the way the rules are you don’t need Megatron or OBJ to have a good to above average passing game. Sure you want stars and studs. But the rules make it a easier these days to scheme around the talent you have
Thielen, Diggs, and Kyle Rudolph.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/3/2019 2:15 am : link
A top 10 performing QB could make plenty of the Giants' pass receiving group including Barkley.

This is such a bullshit narrative. If the OL has been fixed, this receiving group is fine - assuming normal ascendance from Engram and Shepard entering their 3rd and 4th seasons.

If Coleman or Slayton get it, watch out.
RE: The point is ...  
KingBlue : 6/3/2019 3:06 am : link
In comment 14461001 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Giants have a long way to go. The team is better, but forget a playoff run, for a while.


If that is your point... you didn't make it very well. Our receiving corps is adequate and not even close to our biggest concern. In fact, they could very well be top half of league.
RE: RE: The point is ...  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 6/3/2019 5:57 am : link
In comment 14461286 KingBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14461001 Manny in CA said:


Quote:



Giants have a long way to go. The team is better, but forget a playoff run, for a while.



If that is your point... you didn't make it very well. Our receiving corps is adequate and not even close to our biggest concern. In fact, they could very well be top half of league.


You think our WR core is top half of the league? You all need to hook me up with whatever you are smoking.
RE: It’s 4,5 wr  
Ivan15 : 6/3/2019 6:16 am : link
In comment 14461038 djm said:
Quote:
I’m worried about. I’m fine with 1-2-3 and Engram.


So tell us. Who is #3 ? I see a lot of competition for 3, 4 and 5.
I think Shepard and Tate will be the starters  
BillT : 6/3/2019 8:09 am : link
They are easily the two best WRs and the idea that they’re have to play this position or that position and can’t play some other position is mistaken. The team is smart enough to come up with schemes that use them best. I think they obviously will be moved around and used in sets with other guys but they will be the starters, get the majority of the snaps and be on the field most of the time. They aren’t going to start inferior talent just because they are supposedly better at some preconceived x or y or whatever.
Does..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/3/2019 8:37 am : link
Manny ever make a football post without mentioning that Engram should be a WR??
RE: And the point is ...  
Klaatu : 6/3/2019 8:40 am : link
In comment 14460995 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
?


Look up. It's on top of his head.

No real assessment can be made about the Giants' WR corps until we see who makes the team and how their roles are defined. Right now the only two locks are Shepard and Tate, with nine other guys who'll be battling this summer for the remaining four of five spots. It's tempting to pencil in Darius Slayton for one of those spots due to his draft status, and he certainly has good size and tremendous speed, but his high drop rate has to be a major cause for concern.

No doubt special teams play will be one of the deciding factors in the WR battle, and with that in mind you have to give an edge to Corey Coleman who, for all of his well-documented faults as a receiver, was surprisingly good as a kick returner. He only returned one punt last year, but he did get 19 yards on that one return. If I'm Pat Shurmur, I want to see if Coleman can be as consistently good returning punts as he was with kicks.

Cody Latimer is an enigma. He's been a massive disappointment in his five year career, but the Giants chose to re-sign him anyway. Is it unrealistic to think that the proverbial light will come on for him at 27? Probably. He was outplayed in Denver by Bennie Fowler, and history repeated itself last year in New York. Go figure.

Without going into the detail for the rest of the crew (who are fairly underwhelming), I have to say that my highest hopes are reserved for two of the youngest, mostly unheralded small-school kids on the roster - Reggie White, Jr. and Alex Wesley. I'm really anxious to see what they can do on the big stage. Tons of potential there (and no, that's not a dirty word). They'll have their opportunities to shine this summer. It will be up to them to make the most of them.

So...lots of questions, but no real answers at this stage of the game. The answers will come in July and August.
Different - but more than adequate  
Bob in Newburgh : 6/3/2019 8:59 am : link
With Engram, Shepard and Tate, you can legitimately put 3 good #2s on the field at the same time (and Tate may still be a #1 and Engram may develop as one).

What more could you ask than adding SB out of the backfield in the mix. The final spot may not give you quantity, but big play quality threatens. If final DB is movement challenged (common for #5s) you send out Coleman). If final DB is size challenged (also common on the back end) you send out Latimer.

Manning should be able to find a favorable matchup somewhere.
not concerned about wr corps  
bc4life : 6/3/2019 9:09 am : link
Tate is not OBJ but he ain't no slouch and in him you get critical veteran leadership.

You have Tate and Shepard and Engram (has to be viewed as receiver). You have two wrs in Coleman and Slayton who can stretch the field. With the remaining wrs you'll be able to fill out that 5th wr spot.

And, Barkley is a receiving threat.

perhaps most important - if Remmers does solve that RT issue, the run game becomes dangerous making the play action effective which Shurmur has talked about as nauseum.

Team still a work in progress but I see a better than average wr corps.
RE: Does..  
Klaatu : 6/3/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14461317 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Manny ever make a football post without mentioning that Engram should be a WR??


When you have a player like Engram, you don't lament the fact that he isn't Howard Cross and try to make him something he isn't, which is a WR. You innovate, you look to create mismatches for him, you play to his strengths as the prototypical "move TE," and that includes having him run the ball on an end-around as the Giants did last year, once against Atlanta and twice against Indianapolis. You don't build your entire offense around him, but you don't write him off, either.
I'm hopeful that..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/3/2019 9:58 am : link
the Engram we saw at the end of the season is the way he'll be used.

Getting those mismatches is his strength. Consistently using him as a WR, he just becomes a tall guy with questionable hands that can be defensed easier. You want him against slower LB's. You want him up the seam as a target. You want him occasionally split out, especially against small CB's.
RE: I'm hopeful that..  
Klaatu : 6/3/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14461400 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
the Engram we saw at the end of the season is the way he'll be used.

Getting those mismatches is his strength. Consistently using him as a WR, he just becomes a tall guy with questionable hands that can be defensed easier. You want him against slower LB's. You want him up the seam as a target. You want him occasionally split out, especially against small CB's.


Exactly.

As for the other TE's, I'm going to assume that the Giants will keep four, since that's what they kept last year. Right now there are five on the roster - six, if you include Dungey.

Ellison is the incumbent, and while he may be a JAG, he's hardly the worst JAG in the world. If he's not as good of a blocker as I figured he'd be, he's still okay, and he's been a fairly reliable receiver in his limited opportunities. He might still be a cap casualty, especially if one or two of the younger guys proves their worth, but right now I think the odds are against that. We'll see.

Simonson and Dickerson are eminently underwhelming. I think it's unrealistic to expect any dramatic improvement from the 27-year old Simonson. Dickerson, three years younger, might find a role as an H-Back/Fullback and core special-teamer, but he strikes me as a slower, much less athletic version of Evan Engram, although he did have a rep at Northwestern for being a very good blocker. A good showing in preseason is crucial for him.

I don't know much about Dungey, but the Giants seem to like him and he's probably one of the more intriguing guys to keep an eye on this summer.

If C.J. Conrad can just stay healthy he could be a real asset (and a steal as a UDFA). It's not just the issue with his heart (which as of now looks like it may have been misdiagnosed), but he's dealt with a foot injury early in his college career, and then a shoulder injury at the Shrine Game practices (which sucked, because he was looking pretty good up until then). He won't be the most athletic guy on the field, but he's smart, he's got reliable hands, and he was a pretty damned good blocker for Kentucky.
Don't forget my dark horse Lattimer.  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/3/2019 11:14 am : link
Seems to have had a quiet OTA though?
Slayton may not have hands like OBJ but he got that speed  
NephilimGiants : 6/3/2019 11:19 am : link
!
RE: not concerned about wr corps  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 6/3/2019 11:29 am : link
Quote:


perhaps most important - if Remmers does solve that RT issue, the run game becomes dangerous making the play action effective which Shurmur has talked about as nauseum.



This.

It's mostly gone under the radar around here but Shurmer has talked about play action repeatedly. Historically this has been a strength for Eli, and that's likely a reason they weren't in a hurry to rush him out the door.
We'll be fine  
mavric : 6/3/2019 11:53 am : link
Saquon (est. 800 yds receiving)
Engram (est. 800 yds receiving)
Shepard (1000 yds+ receiving)
Tate (850 yds receiving)
Coleman, Latimer, Ellison, Slayton, Fowler, etc. combine for at least a 1000 yds.

Thanks to Saquon and Engram, we have a buffet of options and all can catch and run.

I hope OBJ has 2000 yds this year with the Browns. But I'm glad we have the extra options now which serves to confuse our opponents. We're in fine shape
Didn't the Giants score more points per game with Beckham out?  
fivehead : 6/3/2019 12:04 pm : link
If that's true, I'm not worried about our recievers.
What the OP neglects entirely and what Klaatu and FMiC  
ColHowPepper : 6/3/2019 12:26 pm : link
allude to is how the receiver personnel will be deployed. Going a step further, do Shurmur and Shula have some BB in them, can they be creative and outside the box in schemes and patterns? If so, and we can hope, maybe these receivers begin to look very different to us four games in.
RE: What the OP neglects entirely and what Klaatu and FMiC  
Klaatu : 6/3/2019 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14461541 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
allude to is how the receiver personnel will be deployed. Going a step further, do Shurmur and Shula have some BB in them, can they be creative and outside the box in schemes and patterns? If so, and we can hope, maybe these receivers begin to look very different to us four games in.


Which is one reason why I stress not looking at individual player moves in a vacuum (and why I don't sweat losing OBJ all that much). I want to see what the WR corps looks like after the Giants break camp. I want to see who rose to the occasion during preseason and who didn't. Ditto for any other unit on the team, O-Line, TE's, DB's...whatever.
RE: Didn't the Giants score more points per game with Beckham out?  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/3/2019 3:15 pm : link
In comment 14461513 fivehead said:
Quote:
If that's true, I'm not worried about our recievers.

Remember the constant dopey whining "why can't Steep Decline Eli score 30 points?"

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
The top WR's and Engram just need...  
Bluesbreaker : 6/3/2019 9:11 pm : link
To stay Healthy they know the system better now the O-line has been improved . Barkley will be much more a threat
running the ball and the Pass protection will also be
better . The offense started putting it together
late last season with out OBJ . Latimer and Engram played
well at the end of the season .
We have very good special teams our secondary is much improved . If the rookies from last yer ascend and we
get some pass rush from Golden Carter and Ximines .
I think we can have a pretty solid defense as well .
RE: We'll be fine  
christian : 6/3/2019 10:47 pm : link
In comment 14461502 mavric said:
Quote:
Saquon (est. 800 yds receiving)
Engram (est. 800 yds receiving)
Shepard (1000 yds+ receiving)
Tate (850 yds receiving)
Coleman, Latimer, Ellison, Slayton, Fowler, etc. combine for at least a 1000 yds.


Those are fine projections, but in that lies what I think the OP is stating, and also portrays something has to fundamentally develop.

Manning was really efficient passing the ball, completed the 2nd highest number of passes (380) in his career at the highest completion percentage of his career.

If Manning completes the same high number of passes (380), and those players hit their career averages in YPC, the balance of those 1000 yards will need to come on some really big plays - to the tune of 17.8 YPR.

Either that or the starting group will need to really stretch the field more in the passing game than they've shown in their career.

379 Completions for Manning Broken over Career YPRs

Saquon - 800 | 7.9 | 101
Engram - 800 | 11.9 | 67
Shepard - 1000 | 12 | 83
Go. Tate - 850 | 11.8 | 72
Others - 1000 | 17.8 | 56

Very good , Christian ...  
Manny in CA : 6/4/2019 1:09 am : link

Even if OBJ was here, his career average is only 14.0 yards per catch.

As you point out, our JAGS need to average almost 18 yards per reception. Last year, the "ageless" DeSean Jackson - 18.9, J Gordon 18.0, M Evans 17.7, T Hill 17.0 and J Brown 17.0

Highly inflated expectations, I'd say.

RE: RE: RE: The point is ...  
KingBlue : 6/4/2019 7:11 am : link
In comment 14461289 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
In comment 14461286 KingBlue said:


Quote:


In comment 14461001 Manny in CA said:


Quote:



Giants have a long way to go. The team is better, but forget a playoff run, for a while.



If that is your point... you didn't make it very well. Our receiving corps is adequate and not even close to our biggest concern. In fact, they could very well be top half of league.



You think our WR core is top half of the league? You all need to hook me up with whatever you are smoking.


Remember you said that... Our passing game will be top half of the league, IMHO. The impact of our new OL, Barkley's presence, Engram's emergence, Eli's second year in Shurmur's offense, Tate, Shep, possible emergence of Latimer, Coleman, Fowler are all reasons for optimism. If you think this is an outlandish take then that's on you. It does not require some exotic weed to see the possibilities. Name the passing games league wide that will be better... go ahead give me your top 16.
...  
christian : 6/4/2019 7:45 am : link
You've described about a half dozen factor of which you are optimistic, and I applaud the optimism, but outside of that what exactly supports the notion any of those are likely to happen?
We're OK  
Rong5611 : 6/4/2019 8:14 am : link
We don't have an uber-talented superstar anymore, but we have competent guys in Tate and Shepard. Both can block and run routes well.

We have Barkley who led the team in receptions last year. He can run routes and is very dangerous underneath. I wouldn't play him one down in the preseason.

We need someone else to emerge as the #3 WR (hopefully Coleman).

While not a WR, this is a big year for Engram, needs to stay healthy, get open, and make catches. If he develops, he's a big time weapon in the middle.

I think we will be ok. Consider adding more pieces during FA/Draft next year.
RE: ...  
KingBlue : 6/4/2019 8:14 am : link
In comment 14462341 christian said:
Quote:
You've described about a half dozen factor of which you are optimistic, and I applaud the optimism, but outside of that what exactly supports the notion any of those are likely to happen?


Ok. Half dozen factors stated...

1. Improved OL.. is that outlandish
2. Barkley's presence.. is it outlandish to state that he will have an impact on an improved passing game?
3. Engram's emergence... did his numbers not improve with OBJ's inactivity? Is it outlandish to predict that he can improve further in 3rd year?
4. Eli's second yr in Offense... is it outlandish for any team to improve with more familiarity and experience?
5. Tate, Shep are two experienced pro's that at the very least will run great routes and move the chains... I am optimistic that we can have decent productivity from the 3rd WR

I think when you put it all together it is not outlandish or overly optimistic to expect passing game performance in the mid teens... What do you expect Christian? Lower half of league?
I want to be optimistic ....  
Manny in CA : 6/4/2019 1:33 pm : link

I wish that we had a proven & complete receiving corps that was capable of making up for the other deficiencies and many questions that the team has (especially on defense).

If we had a top five receiving group, I think given the O-line improvement and Barley's presence, the team could scare a lot of people. But, like I said, we have "a ways to go".

RE: I want to be optimistic ....  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14462690 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

I wish that we had a proven & complete receiving corps that was capable of making up for the other deficiencies and many questions that the team has (especially on defense).

If we had a top five receiving group, I think given the O-line improvement and Barley's presence, the team could scare a lot of people. But, like I said, we have "a ways to go".


Tate, Shepard, Engram, and Barkley in a passing attack is a lot better than quite a few teams
A lot better?  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 3:09 pm : link
Can you name all of these teams?

Tate is our #1? And then we have Shep and Engram. That isn’t a lot better than anybody in the league.

The passing game on the outside is bottom of the league. Maybe Engram can step up. Or a long shot like Coleman or the rookie. If not, we have no advantages in the pass game outside of the RB.
RE: A lot better?  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14462841 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Can you name all of these teams?

Tate is our #1? And then we have Shep and Engram. That isn’t a lot better than anybody in the league.

The passing game on the outside is bottom of the league. Maybe Engram can step up. Or a long shot like Coleman or the rookie. If not, we have no advantages in the pass game outside of the RB.


It’s middle of the road when you actually look around the league.
Engram & Barkley are also huge mismatches and assets in the pass game ... it’s not a great group, it’s not all doom and gloom either.

Tate is also absurdly underrated on here, but that’s a whole other story. This Corp is “adequate”, and will likely be improved in the first round of 2020.

I counted about 15 offensive skill groups I’d consider “better”
Tate  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 6/4/2019 3:41 pm : link
is treated like a JAG around here. He isn't Beckham, but he is better than these guys give him credit for, and he is a great fit in Shurmer's offense.
I have a feeling the Giants Offense  
BigBluDawg : 6/4/2019 3:59 pm : link
Is going to have similar struggles to Dallas before they traded for Cooper last year, trying to run everything through Elliott and teams game planned for him.

RE: I have a feeling the Giants Offense  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14462897 BigBluDawg said:
Quote:
Is going to have similar struggles to Dallas before they traded for Cooper last year, trying to run everything through Elliott and teams game planned for him.


Tate, Shepard, Engram >>> Hurns, Gallup, Williams/Austin
Its not middle of the pack  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 4:16 pm : link
Barkley is a stud. The rest of the group is bottom of the league.

If Tate is your #1, you have a problem.

Maybe it would be OK if you were strong at 2 and 3. But were not. I like Shep. Hes a decent #2. #3 is a big question mark. Overall the WR position is a weakness unless we get a lot of help with Coleman or the rookie.

Engram has a lot of upside. He's our best bet. If he doesn't make a jump were screwed and left with only Barkley as a true mismatch advantage.

Overall, not a strong group. Not middle of the pack. When all of these preseason rankings come out we'll be at the bottom of the league (and should be).
RE: Its not middle of the pack  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 4:18 pm : link
In comment 14462928 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Barkley is a stud. The rest of the group is bottom of the league.

If Tate is your #1, you have a problem.

Maybe it would be OK if you were strong at 2 and 3. But were not. I like Shep. Hes a decent #2. #3 is a big question mark. Overall the WR position is a weakness unless we get a lot of help with Coleman or the rookie.

Engram has a lot of upside. He's our best bet. If he doesn't make a jump were screwed and left with only Barkley as a true mismatch advantage.

Overall, not a strong group. Not middle of the pack. When all of these preseason rankings come out we'll be at the bottom of the league (and should be).


Feel free to take a glance around the league ... there’s not as many significantly better skill position groups as you (and whatever preseason rankings you actually listen to) think
I'm not listening to any rankings  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 4:21 pm : link
We have Shep and Tate. Not size or athletic mismatches. Tate is fading. Neither is explosive by NFL standards.

We don't much after these top 2. Our #3 is not a strength.

We have Enrgram who has flashed in a few games.

That isn't middle of the pack in the NFL.
RE: I'm not listening to any rankings  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 4:36 pm : link
In comment 14462933 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
We have Shep and Tate. Not size or athletic mismatches. Tate is fading. Neither is explosive by NFL standards.

We don't much after these top 2. Our #3 is not a strength.

We have Enrgram who has flashed in a few games.

That isn't middle of the pack in the NFL.


Yeah these guys suck. Doomed. Who cares that Tate was actually on pace for 1 of the best year’s of his career prior to a mid season trade to a new offense and is annually among the most elusive players in the league.

https://youtu.be/6dXXhJqKsTU

https://youtu.be/KwLU6Fhag80

+ freak athlete at TE + best RB in the game + improved OL ... doomed.




Lol  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 5:48 pm : link
“Annually among the most elusive”?

Has that string of words every been seen on print before?
RE: Lol  
GothamGiants : 6/4/2019 5:56 pm : link
In comment 14463023 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
“Annually among the most elusive”?

Has that string of words every been seen on print before?


https://www.google.com/amp/s/lionswire.usatoday.com/2017/06/26/detroit-lions-golden-tate-nfls-hardest-wr-to-tackle-pro-football-focus/amp/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.prideofdetroit.com/platform/amp/2017/10/20/16510434/golden-tate-leading-receiver-slot-missed-tackles-pro-
football-focus

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2019-free-agency-profile-golden-tate

“He’s been the league’s best receiver in terms of forced missed tackles and yards after the catch for quite some time now, and such talents could be reignited if given the right opportunity.”

Oops.


Yes Tate  
XBRONX : 6/4/2019 6:03 pm : link
is fading into the sunset. Thanks for the laughs Kwall. Another one who will be eating crow.
That adds up to the title  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 6:06 pm : link
“Annually among the most elusive“.

Nice work!

It also doesn’t change the fact he’s at the bottom of the league as a #1 and so is our WR unit.

We overpaid for a 31 year old guy who’s best as a #3 option.

If Engram or a young guy doesn’t step up the passing game will be a problem:



RE: That adds up to the title  
KingBlue : 6/4/2019 6:35 pm : link
In comment 14463040 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
“Annually among the most elusive“.

Nice work!

It also doesn’t change the fact he’s at the bottom of the league as a #1 and so is our WR unit.

We overpaid for a 31 year old guy who’s best as a #3 option.

If Engram or a young guy doesn’t step up the passing game will be a problem:




You're overstating and convinced you are right. This passing offense is much, much more capable than you believe. They are closer to the top then they are to the bottom. It is not unreasonable to project a top half finish for this passing offense.
then equals  
KingBlue : 6/4/2019 6:36 pm : link
than
...  
christian : 6/4/2019 7:07 pm : link
No one is arguing Tate isn't nifty after the catch or sure handed -- but catch numbers and YAC need to be taken in context.

Give Tate a break for 2018 because of the system change, in 2017 he had 91 catches for 1003 yards, and 639 YAC. That means his average route was going 4 yards in the air. A lot of his routes are quick hits and hoping for a big play.

That's a lot of targets (135) for not impressive production. Especially when the Giants are already have Barkley who got 120 targets at less than 8 YPR.

Unless the plan is to draw them in, to then draw them in, someone needs to be getting downfield a little bit.
Now its better than middle of the pack?  
KWALL2 : 6/4/2019 8:16 pm : link
Closer to the top. What are you looking at with this group other than Barkley.

The WR group is weak. Very weak.

Engram has upside and could breakout. If not, were screwed.

Tate is a role player who is paid like a #1. Across the board there is nothing for the defense to worry about at WR for NYG. Nothing including Tate.

Why they gave all of that guaranteed money to a 31 year old #3 WR is a mystery. This is a team full of holes and Tate deosn't help much. The cash should have went in another direction and certainly on a younger player.
RE: RE: That adds up to the title  
christian : 6/4/2019 11:04 pm : link
In comment 14463071 KingBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14463040 KWALL2 said:


Quote:


“Annually among the most elusive“.

Nice work!

It also doesn’t change the fact he’s at the bottom of the league as a #1 and so is our WR unit.

We overpaid for a 31 year old guy who’s best as a #3 option.

If Engram or a young guy doesn’t step up the passing game will be a problem:






You're overstating and convinced you are right. This passing offense is much, much more capable than you believe. They are closer to the top then they are to the bottom. It is not unreasonable to project a top half finish for this passing offense.


If the Giants are a middle of the pack passing team they've gone backward -- despite all of struggles with the line and quarterback -- the Giants were a top third passing team last year. That's what many are worried about.

RE: I'm not listening to any rankings  
HomerJones45 : 6/5/2019 8:54 am : link
In comment 14462933 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
We have Shep and Tate. Not size or athletic mismatches. Tate is fading. Neither is explosive by NFL standards.

We don't much after these top 2. Our #3 is not a strength.

We have Enrgram who has flashed in a few games.

That isn't middle of the pack in the NFL.
+1.
RE: Don't forget my dark horse Lattimer.  
Canton : 6/5/2019 9:02 am : link
In comment 14461478 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
Seems to have had a quiet OTA though?


Quiet?


He caught a TD, over the shoulder, in the corner end zone, for a touchdown. (From Jones)


I wouldn't say he was exactly quiet.

The answer is usually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2019 9:11 am : link
somewhere in the middle.

KWALL makes it seem like Tate blows and is about to fall off a cliff, yet he's had over 90 receptions 4 out of the past 5 years and had 74 last year staring only 8 games.

He didn't have a significant (and often no) decline in categories and his best years have been in the recent stretch.

Shepard is 26 years old and likely entering his prime. Same with Engram.

This isn't the best receiving corp in the league, but adding Barkley to the mix - it isn't just a few scrub options that will be lucky to score.

If we only had a Rutgers WR on the roster, I'm sure the take would be much more glowing....
RE: Our third best receiving option  
HomerJones45 : 6/5/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14461175 djm said:
Quote:
Won’t be that 3-4 wr. It’s gonna come from Engram, Barkley, shep and Tate. That’s four guys right there that are fully capable of getting a lot of burn or starter attention. You also have the other TEs. And gallman and Perkins. And the FB.

Pray we don’t need that guy to get too much burn for too long. That guy needs to get 2-3-4 targets a game and we will be just fine and dandy.
Outside of Barkley, there will be no one who will need to draw double coverage. There is also no vertical threat, unless Coleman has an epiphany that has eluded him in his other 3 stops, which results in the safeties being up a few steps.
I get a kick out of people making all kinds of definitive statements..  
Klaatu : 6/5/2019 9:45 am : link
In the first week of June.

We don't have this, we don't have that...this guy is a stud, that guy is, too...

The fact is that we don't know if any of these grand proclamations have any merit at all, one way or the other, and as I said earlier, we won't know until we see what happens in training camp and the preseason.
As a #1 WR and with that deal  
KWALL2 : 6/5/2019 9:47 am : link
Yes, Tate blows. Terrible move for anybody to give him that money. Even worse on a bottom 5 team. We have 8 wins over 2 years. Money should have been used in another direction.

PHI didn’t want him back. They didn’t even call him. Nothing. No offer. Didn’t even talk to him about coming back at any price.

I’ll agree with you that it could be in the middle. In a debate of middle of the pack vs bottom of the league. Yes, it could be somewhere in the middle of those 2 points.

RE: The answer is usually..  
Greg from LI : 6/5/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14463431 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
KWALL makes it seem like Tate blows and is about to fall off a cliff, yet he's had over 90 receptions 4 out of the past 5 years and had 74 last year staring only 8 games.


He also hasn't averaged so much as 12 yards a catch since 2014. Nice possession receiver, but not a guy with big play ability.
Tate..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2019 10:00 am : link
has never been outstanding at YPC.

But let's not act like he doesn't have big plays. He's had 5 TD's of 60+ yards in the past 3 seasons.
And I love..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2019 10:01 am : link
that Tate blows based on the contract.

Great reasoning.
The huge key here is Barkley.  
Big Blue '56 : 6/5/2019 10:04 am : link
As long as this quintessential double threat is a factor, they will do fine with the receivers they have, imv..I believe if the OL will be improved, perhaps markedly so, that is a bigger factor in the effectiveness of our receivers. Give him reasonable time and Eli will pick apart defenses, esp. with Barkley in tow, imho..Same if Jones enters the fray sooner rather than later
5 TDs of 60+ yards  
Greg from LI : 6/5/2019 10:07 am : link
But only 13 total TDs in those three seasons.
I didn't say..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2019 10:15 am : link
he's a TD machine.

I'm just refuting the idea he doesn't make big plays.

First, he's just a possession WR. Then he's a guy who scores almost 40% of his TD's on huge plays and doesn't get in the end zone that often.

Which is it??
The contract isn’t a factor?  
KWALL2 : 6/5/2019 10:19 am : link
We have holes at every spot so let’s piss away $$ on a 31 yr old WR & a guy the Eagles didn’t want back at any price.

Even without the $, yes he blows as a #1 WR. If you want to rank him vs his peers he’s at the bottom of the pack. As a #3, at a reasonable price? He doesn’t blow. But that isn’t what we have here.

What we have is a 5 win team (with a very similar player on the roster) just gave a ton of guaranteed money to a 31 year old slot guy, not wanted by his last team at any price, and we paid him to be our #1.

But what’s really important when evaluating the value of your 31 year old #1 Wr? Its his past reception numbers as a 2nd and 3rd option.

I think you're being disingenuous here  
Greg from LI : 6/5/2019 10:21 am : link
That's nice that five of his 257 receptions over the past three seasons went for long touchdowns. It hardly makes him a big play machine, particularly since even with those long touchdown he has a less than sparkling YPC.
Scoring once..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 6/5/2019 10:26 am : link
on a long pass in disingenuous. Doing it several times means he isn't just slow schlub that has no ability to make big plays.

The point is - he's not nearly as terrible as KWALL would have you think, nor are the Giants one of the worst teams in terms of receiving options. With Barkley, we are right in the middle.
From a talent POV the giants WR are competent  
Eric on Li : 6/5/2019 10:37 am : link
how well they work within the system is the key question. A few teams made the playoffs with worse (Baltimore, Chicago) and among our division the productivity level is comparable. Amari Cooper may be the best WR in the division but the Cowboys have little behind him and his full season production wasn't out of the reach of both Shepard + Tate (1000 yds and 7 tds). I'm a big Alshon Jeffrey fan, but he and Agholor had fewer yards than Shepard last year (though Ertz had a big year). Jordan Reed led the skins with 558 yards last year (less than Engram had as our 3rd leading Wr).

Tate, Shepard, and Engram have each averaged 50+ ypg not only last year but for their careers. Each is a proven 800+ yard weapon without heavy volume. Again, it all comes down to how well Shurmur deploys his system. Enough talent is there to be a productive offense. Depending on how the volume levels increase 1 of the 3 could easily eclipse 1k yards - which only 21 players in the NFL did last year. Shepard was actually 26th on the leaderboard, Tate was 35th.
RE: From a talent POV the giants WR are competent  
NephilimGiants : 6/5/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14463589 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
how well they work within the system is the key question. A few teams made the playoffs with worse (Baltimore, Chicago) and among our division the productivity level is comparable. Amari Cooper may be the best WR in the division but the Cowboys have little behind him and his full season production wasn't out of the reach of both Shepard + Tate (1000 yds and 7 tds). I'm a big Alshon Jeffrey fan, but he and Agholor had fewer yards than Shepard last year (though Ertz had a big year). Jordan Reed led the skins with 558 yards last year (less than Engram had as our 3rd leading Wr).

Tate, Shepard, and Engram have each averaged 50+ ypg not only last year but for their careers. Each is a proven 800+ yard weapon without heavy volume. Again, it all comes down to how well Shurmur deploys his system. Enough talent is there to be a productive offense. Depending on how the volume levels increase 1 of the 3 could easily eclipse 1k yards - which only 21 players in the NFL did last year. Shepard was actually 26th on the leaderboard, Tate was 35th.


Im not worried about their system, anything better then McDoodoo system. Giants scored highest in division last year, second year should get better
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