I saw this video posted recently about Eli.
And I think its a good analysis of of the Giants offense and Eli.
At about the 9:30 mark he highlights a play against the Cowboys.
The reason I focus on this play is because of the play of Halapio and what I keep saying about him, and why I don't think he is a starting center.
My contention is that he does a poor job of reading the defense, calling the right protections, and putting himself in the right position to affect a play. And although he only played in 2 games last year, plus some time in the preseason, what we see on this play is on many many plays in his short tenure.
On this play he misreads the stunt and turns the wrong way and can't pick up the DL. He was also fooled by the disguise even though the Cowboys shifted long enough before the snap for him to see what was happening. There are 3 rushers to the his right, and 2 to his left, but he turns left which leave a free path to the QB.
If I saw this only onse, it would be one thing. But if you watched the Jags and Cowboy games, they are littered with the same thing over and over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDpOjIa8xdc 
FFS man
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTF6hJenGi4
FFS man
I do realize he is new to the position...
You do realize that maybe, just maybe its not a great idea to throw a guy with no experience out there at center, which is by far the most complex position on the line.
You want to experiment with him at center... fine, let him backup for a year or two. But to just throw him out there when he has no clue what he is doing, and especialy to leave yourself no other viable alternative, is just asinine.
And now we are a year later and he has all of 2 games under his belt. I doubt much has changed yet. And yet again we are counting on him to man the position. Personally I am not a big fan of Pulley either, but he is lightyears ahead of Halapio.
This draft I was hoping we would upgrade, Wes Martin jumped out in the 5 minutes I looked into it
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That he was new to the center position, right? Apparently patience is not your strong suit. Let’s judge a guy playing a brand new position, an extremely difficult position, based on a few plays in all of two games...
FFS man
I do realize he is new to the position...
You do realize that maybe, just maybe its not a great idea to throw a guy with no experience out there at center, which is by far the most complex position on the line.
You want to experiment with him at center... fine, let him backup for a year or two. But to just throw him out there when he has no clue what he is doing, and especialy to leave yourself no other viable alternative, is just asinine.
And now we are a year later and he has all of 2 games under his belt. I doubt much has changed yet. And yet again we are counting on him to man the position. Personally I am not a big fan of Pulley either, but he is lightyears ahead of Halapio.
Shurmur was the starting center for Mich State. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, he might know just a tiny bit more on what it takes to play center than you?
FFS man
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In comment 14465362 BigBlueShock said:
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That he was new to the center position, right? Apparently patience is not your strong suit. Let’s judge a guy playing a brand new position, an extremely difficult position, based on a few plays in all of two games...
FFS man
I do realize he is new to the position...
You do realize that maybe, just maybe its not a great idea to throw a guy with no experience out there at center, which is by far the most complex position on the line.
You want to experiment with him at center... fine, let him backup for a year or two. But to just throw him out there when he has no clue what he is doing, and especialy to leave yourself no other viable alternative, is just asinine.
And now we are a year later and he has all of 2 games under his belt. I doubt much has changed yet. And yet again we are counting on him to man the position. Personally I am not a big fan of Pulley either, but he is lightyears ahead of Halapio.
Shurmur was the starting center for Mich State. Do you think that maybe, just maybe, he might know just a tiny bit more on what it takes to play center than you?
The problems with Halapio at center are manifest, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see them. You just have to watch.
I think the Giants are blinded by hope rather than reality. Perhaps Halapio is great in the film room and diagramming... Perhaps the Giants are hoping that that intelligence will translate to the field. But, I have my doubts that he has the mental faculty to play the position. Its not just smarts, its being able to process quickly when the bullets are flying. Its the same reason why most QBs fail in the NFL. The problems him at center, IMO, are too frequent and too egregious.
FFS man
Patience? Really, this is the NFL not Pop Warner. Players should know their positions. If he can't play center it's management's fault
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That he was new to the center position, right? Apparently patience is not your strong suit. Let’s judge a guy playing a brand new position, an extremely difficult position, based on a few plays in all of two games...
FFS man
Halapio is 27, been kicking around for 5 season now and has been with 4 different teams. One would think he would have picked up a few things along the way. The OP is pointing out his miscues reading defensese, not center technique. Halapio must have the learning curve of a stump.
Thank you!
To add to your point that he is 27, by the time he learns to play the position, he will be done.
He may well not be the answer, but there's way too much being made of a very, very small sample size at a new position.
Can we maybe see how he looks in camp and preseason or do we need to already decide now that he can't swing it based on like 5 quarters of football?
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In comment 14465362 BigBlueShock said:
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That he was new to the center position, right? Apparently patience is not your strong suit. Let’s judge a guy playing a brand new position, an extremely difficult position, based on a few plays in all of two games...
FFS man
Halapio is 27, been kicking around for 5 season now and has been with 4 different teams. One would think he would have picked up a few things along the way. The OP is pointing out his miscues reading defensese, not center technique. Halapio must have the learning curve of a stump.
Thank you!
To add to your point that he is 27, by the time he learns to play the position, he will be done.
The fact that you’re in the same page as HomerJones tells us all we need to know
He may well not be the answer, but there's way too much being made of a very, very small sample size at a new position.
Can we maybe see how he looks in camp and preseason or do we need to already decide now that he can't swing it based on like 5 quarters of football?
It was frequent enough to jump out at me... Even when I was watching the games live. Going back to the videos, I saw even more. I would say he made a mental mistake on at least 30% perhaps as much as 50% of his passing plays. It just didn't cost on all of those.
I'd probably have been more surprised if he was lights out or didn't make mistakes. He had virtually no past experience playing there.
If he doesn't progress in camp, he won't be long for the job. Obviously the coach and the GM like something about him and feel he should be given a shot there. They might be wrong, but given the backgrounds of each guy, I'm willing to give them more than a game and a half on Pio before I'm convinced he can't be adequate.
I get that it's a slow time of the year, but...
Halapio will get his shot at correcting it this year, but you are what you are until you prove different.
I'd probably have been more surprised if he was lights out or didn't make mistakes. He had virtually no past experience playing there.
If he doesn't progress in camp, he won't be long for the job. Obviously the coach and the GM like something about him and feel he should be given a shot there. They might be wrong, but given the backgrounds of each guy, I'm willing to give them more than a game and a half on Pio before I'm convinced he can't be adequate.
I get that it's a slow time of the year, but...
He is a better run blocker than we have had at center for a while. But, there were plays, even on runs, where he clearly called the wrong blocking scheme.
Here is the Jags highlights... Just in the highlights there are 3 plays I see. One at about 1:35, one at about 2:35 and the one I already posted above.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IErOmkilU6w
Will Hernandez was playing in his first NFL game vs. JAX, and the guard on the other side of him was Omameh... who didn't even make it halfway through the season here before we cut bait because he sucked so badly.
So, not only did you have Pio's inexperience in the middle. But, we also had him playing in the middle of inexperience and garbage.
I'd wager that Halapio will look a bit better with Hernandez in year two and Kevin Zeitler on each side of him.
Yes, he's got to improve in his own regard. But I'm willing to give him more of a shot.
Most of BBI thinks Pulley stinks, but we're supposed to maintain optimism for the other option who is coming off a major injury and is understandably green at the center position.
Will Hernandez was playing in his first NFL game vs. JAX, and the guard on the other side of him was Omameh... who didn't even make it halfway through the season here before we cut bait because he sucked so badly.
So, not only did you have Pio's inexperience in the middle. But, we also had him playing in the middle of inexperience and garbage.
I'd wager that Halapio will look a bit better with Hernandez in year two and Kevin Zeitler on each side of him.
Yes, he's got to improve in his own regard. But I'm willing to give him more of a shot.
I agree that improved guard play, and we are talking vastly improved in this case, will help him. And sure, give him a shot in the pre-season, but bad line calls can turn an otherwise good group of players into a shit show. If he continues with bad line calls and mental mistakes, we should start Pulley, even if Halapio is the better physical blocker. At center the mental game is more important.
We should also be seriously looking for an upgrade over both.
Just stating facts.
The sample size is tiny, it's a new position, and there's not enough to go by to make declarations like "he sucks"
The coach, who actually played the position for a good program likes him and so does the GM, who has found a few pretty good offensive linemen over the years.
I guess it's "hilarious" that I'd just like to see him play in more than a game and a half with better guard play on each side of him, thinking that perhaps he could become adequate for the time being until we find an upgrade.
Oh well.
One day.
Just stating facts.
The sample size is tiny, it's a new position, and there's not enough to go by to make declarations like "he sucks"
The coach, who actually played the position for a good program likes him and so does the GM, who has found a few pretty good offensive linemen over the years.
I guess it's "hilarious" that I'd just like to see him play in more than a game and a half with better guard play on each side of him, thinking that perhaps he could become adequate for the time being until we find an upgrade.
Oh well.
This isn’t facts, it’s you hoping against hope he’s worth a shit.
He’s 27, not 22. He’s looked like shit in limited action. He’s a fringe roster guy getting an opportunity because the Giants don’t have better options.
Just stating facts.
The sample size is tiny, it's a new position, and there's not enough to go by to make declarations like "he sucks"
The coach, who actually played the position for a good program likes him and so does the GM, who has found a few pretty good offensive linemen over the years.
I guess it's "hilarious" that I'd just like to see him play in more than a game and a half with better guard play on each side of him, thinking that perhaps he could become adequate for the time being until we find an upgrade.
Oh well.
To be clear, in my OP I said he is not a starting center, and I stand by that statement. Perhaps because he is too new to the position, perhaps its because he just doesn't have the processing ability required of the position. Whatever the case, as of new, he not an NFL starting center. Nowhere did I say cut him, stop the experitment, that he sucks, etc... What I say is that he not a starting center, not at this time. It's fine to give him reps in pre-season or in garbage time to give him experience. Throwing him to the wolves when he doesn't know what he is doing doesn't do anybody any good. As I said earlier, you want to experiment with him, let him backup for a while, not start.
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In comment 14465388 HomerJones45 said:
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In comment 14465362 BigBlueShock said:
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That he was new to the center position, right? Apparently patience is not your strong suit. Let’s judge a guy playing a brand new position, an extremely difficult position, based on a few plays in all of two games...
FFS man
Halapio is 27, been kicking around for 5 season now and has been with 4 different teams. One would think he would have picked up a few things along the way. The OP is pointing out his miscues reading defensese, not center technique. Halapio must have the learning curve of a stump.
Thank you!
To add to your point that he is 27, by the time he learns to play the position, he will be done.
The fact that you’re in the same page as HomerJones tells us all we need to know
It seems I have quite a bit more company. And posters for whom I have a lot more respect than you. The fact that you cannot see what I am referring to on the videos (4 plays I linked on this thread) says all we need to know about your football acumen.
If we can pick a center in the draft and get a RT in FA, Barkley could be lights out in years to come. A mobile QB like Jones will only assist in opening up running lanes for Barkley, as Jones will at least help keep Ds honest a bit. He's not Murray, RG3, or Lamar Jackson, but he's mobile enough to take off if Ds disrespect him.
"This isn't college. This is the N-F-L, which stands for..." - ( New Window )
- There is some good and bad on that tape for sure but actually only about 2 plays where I think I'd really want to get on Halapio for something.
- Flowers and Omameh are utterly brutal. You can see the gameplan is to try and let the vets on the right side get by whilst Pio helps the rookie but actually the rookie is a picture of stability.
- I really don't see the same volume of bad things you do. Should also be noted Pio flashes some really nice power for a center. If he can get a run in the team and the injury doesn't linger I think he can be an O'Hara type find.
He may well not be the answer, but there's way too much being made of a very, very small sample size at a new position.
Can we maybe see how he looks in camp and preseason or do we need to already decide now that he can't swing it based on like 5 quarters of football?
Bottom line is they have 2 players they believe can start at Center. Let's see how it plays out in the pre season.
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No one is "making excuses" for him.
Just stating facts.
The sample size is tiny, it's a new position, and there's not enough to go by to make declarations like "he sucks"
The coach, who actually played the position for a good program likes him and so does the GM, who has found a few pretty good offensive linemen over the years.
I guess it's "hilarious" that I'd just like to see him play in more than a game and a half with better guard play on each side of him, thinking that perhaps he could become adequate for the time being until we find an upgrade.
Oh well.
To be clear, in my OP I said he is not a starting center, and I stand by that statement. Perhaps because he is too new to the position, perhaps its because he just doesn't have the processing ability required of the position. Whatever the case, as of new, he not an NFL starting center. Nowhere did I say cut him, stop the experitment, that he sucks, etc... What I say is that he not a starting center, not at this time. It's fine to give him reps in pre-season or in garbage time to give him experience. Throwing him to the wolves when he doesn't know what he is doing doesn't do anybody any good. As I said earlier, you want to experiment with him, let him backup for a while, not start.
- There is some good and bad on that tape for sure but actually only about 2 plays where I think I'd really want to get on Halapio for something.
- Flowers and Omameh are utterly brutal. You can see the gameplan is to try and let the vets on the right side get by whilst Pio helps the rookie but actually the rookie is a picture of stability.
- I really don't see the same volume of bad things you do. Should also be noted Pio flashes some really nice power for a center. If he can get a run in the team and the injury doesn't linger I think he can be an O'Hara type find.
Also, LeCharles Bentley thinks he's good.
Link - ( New Window )
You don't think you can see something in two games? How many games did it take you to realize that Barkley is good? More than that?
If you can recognize excellence in two games, you can certainly identify struggles. Otherwise, you'd think coaches wouldn't bother to work to improve players until what, three games in? Ya know, just to make sure they "saw" something?
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some of you are not in the coaching business. 2 games and you “saw” something..:)
You don't think you can see something in two games? How many games did it take you to realize that Barkley is good? More than that?
If you can recognize excellence in two games, you can certainly identify struggles. Otherwise, you'd think coaches wouldn't bother to work to improve players until what, three games in? Ya know, just to make sure they "saw" something?
An elite RB from the get-go vs a man who played a position for 2 games? Apples and oranges
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In comment 14465587 Big Blue '56 said:
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some of you are not in the coaching business. 2 games and you “saw” something..:)
You don't think you can see something in two games? How many games did it take you to realize that Barkley is good? More than that?
If you can recognize excellence in two games, you can certainly identify struggles. Otherwise, you'd think coaches wouldn't bother to work to improve players until what, three games in? Ya know, just to make sure they "saw" something?
An elite RB from the get-go vs a man who played a position for 2 games? Apples and oranges
If you want to say that context of experience should factor into the amount of rope you're willing to give a guy to overcome his struggles, I think that's fair. But to say that people can't even identify those struggles in two games is crap if you're willing to say that you can identify excellence in the same amount of time.
That said, there is a bias that big maulers cannot zone block well, my guess that's on an individual case by case basis.
Then, obviously the instant zone blocks obviously have merit due to east then backside west outside zone and all that, but is instant a necessity?
It's probably a lot to do with training and cohesion.
My thing with Pio is can he stay healthy?
But comparing Barkley and Halapio are really different. First off, a RB's "good vs. bad" is pretty straightforward - did he gain yards. But even then, I wouldn't trust a lot of people on BBI to break down if he gained the maximum amount of yards and what holes he missed.
Extrapolate that to the OL and you have chuckleheads watching "tape" trying to assert if Halapio is calling out the right protection schemes? LOL.
For all we know - the protection was fine, but Flowers blew the pickup or Hernandez in his first couple of games was trying to figure out what was going on. It's kind of like the PFF rating system - unqualified people trying to tell others what a player's assignment was "supposed" to be.
That's the real issue here. A coaching staff that saw how poor Flowers and Omameh were playing yet seems to give Halapio a bit of credit, likely knows more than some guy watching footage and making a shitload of assumptions.