Tonight's lineup vs Colorado
2B Jeff McNeil
1B Pete Alonso
RF Michael Conforto
LF Dominic Smith
C Wilson Ramos
3B Todd Frazier
SS Amed Rosario
CF Juan Lagares
RHP Jacob deGrom
The Rockies are coming in hot but McNeil is back and hitting, Dom and Alonso are in the same lineup, and the Cy Young winner is going. Could be worse! Love the lineup tonight! Let’s take this series before the Subway series next week! LGM!
Quote:
“If the Mets are over .500 at the deadline...”
When you have to say that each year, you’ve already lost.
That's generally the line that makes teams buyers or sellers. That applies to every team. That's all I mean by that.
I know. My point is that every year we have to hope to be .500 at the deadline. Every year we are disappointed. With the pitching we’ve had, it’s been a colossal failure from the top of this org.
BVW hasn’t instilled any confidence with his offseason either. It’s very clear he wanted to quickly establish himself more then make sensible moves. But we can disagree on that all day.
He was the 6th pick in the draft 4 months before he was traded.
No one believed Kelenic was a 50 - 100 prospect and the only people who cite that are those who are trying to rationalize the trade from the Mets side.
Almost no one liked the trade for the Mets from the second it was announced.
And people didn't like Cano's age, they didn't like how much of Cano's salary the Mets agreed to take, but for most people the straw to break the back on that trade was Kelenic. It was a bad trade, and one that will likely make Mets fans forget Scott Kazmir. Sure, they got value back in Diaz, but closers are a commodity that should not cost you Kelenic plus - especially when you're taking on massive Cano money.
but here I am again rehashing this awful trade. again.
I'm sick of it.
Quote:
In comment 14466322 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
“If the Mets are over .500 at the deadline...”
When you have to say that each year, you’ve already lost.
That's generally the line that makes teams buyers or sellers. That applies to every team. That's all I mean by that.
I know. My point is that every year we have to hope to be .500 at the deadline. Every year we are disappointed. With the pitching we’ve had, it’s been a colossal failure from the top of this org.
BVW hasn’t instilled any confidence with his offseason either. It’s very clear he wanted to quickly establish himself more then make sensible moves. But we can disagree on that all day.
Im not saying the offseasons have worked out correctly. I was more just talking about them making moves and spending in general this past year. We had a very active offseason. I liked the moves we made but I didn't think we were suddenly a juggernaut.
When you make Cespedes the face of your franchise and are paying him 30 million AAV and he's basically out, its going to hamper you. I was hoping for a 85-90 win team this year and knew some things had to go right and we had to stay pretty healthy. We'll see.
He was the 6th pick in the draft 4 months before he was traded.
No one believed Kelenic was a 50 - 100 prospect and the only people who cite that are those who are trying to rationalize the trade from the Mets side.
Almost no one liked the trade for the Mets from the second it was announced.
And people didn't like Cano's age, they didn't like how much of Cano's salary the Mets agreed to take, but for most people the straw to break the back on that trade was Kelenic. It was a bad trade, and one that will likely make Mets fans forget Scott Kazmir. Sure, they got value back in Diaz, but closers are a commodity that should not cost you Kelenic plus - especially when you're taking on massive Cano money.
but here I am again rehashing this awful trade. again.
I'm sick of it.
Huh? Im talking about where he was ranked nationally at exactly the time of the trade. 50-100 is EXACTLY where he was. Why? Because the younger he is, the more variance. Of course he is moving up now. He's killing it in Seattle's system. Good for him. Every prospect is traded in every trade with the possibility they will become good some day. And please dont let me dig up articles from the time of the trade again. There were plenty that at least thought it was "fair". Sure you'll find some that didn't like it but please lets just skip it.
Cano is another Met disastrous fading star second basemen, yeah, can’t wait for him to come back, before long the Mets will be paying him to go away!
Almost no scouts thought he'd be a bottom half of the hundreds prospect.
This blurb sums of my view of the trade perfectly and I'll let this stand as my final word on it. This is exactly how I felt at the time, and I still do.
In iterations of this deal that had the Mets getting Cano and Diaz while unloading Bruce and giving up a prospect of the non-Kelenic variety, it seemed too good to be true. A deal that has the same general parameters but includes Kelenic? That would be too bad to be true.
The idea of geting Cano (who is 36 years old but still highly productive) while unloading Bruce and adding arguably the best closer in baseball is tantalizing. But if it comes at the expense of Kelenic, the Mets should move on and simply sign one of the many high-impact relievers available on the free agent market.
Yes, many prospects flame out. But so do relievers. And trading the kind of high-impact player Kelenic could be in the deal for Cano makes no sense. Justin Dunn? Sure. Andres Gimenez? Sure. But Kelenic should be off limits.
In retrospect Cano has struggled and Diaz hasn't been quite as dominant (although not really bad) and the trade does look worse.
Time will tell how bad it actually is but I doubt it goes down as one of the worsts ever if Diaz is serviceable.
And I fully expect Kelenic to be a good player in MLB.
Quote:
With a half way healthy Cano and Nimmo and the lineup will suddenly look formidable again IMO!
Cano is another Met disastrous fading star second basemen, yeah, can’t wait for him to come back, before long the Mets will be paying him to go away!
What is it w the Mets and aging second baseman acquisitions? Randolph, Baerga, Alomar, Cano. And they always get rid of the ones right when they are hitting their prime. Jefferies, Kent, Murphy, Turner.
In retrospect Cano has struggled and Diaz hasn't been quite as dominant (although not really bad) and the trade does look worse.
Time will tell how bad it actually is but I doubt it goes down as one of the worsts ever if Diaz is serviceable.
And I fully expect Kelenic to be a good player in MLB.
I still would rather have included Alonso than Kelenic.
But...that was because of the reports of Alonso's D not being "playable". If that was the case and Alonso was a DH playing 1B it made complete sense.
Even now though the feeling is less strong, but with Dom Smith showing he can play 1B and hit like we hoped, it would have been better long term for the Mets to have included Alonso than Kelenic.
This is even more true if Kelenic can remain in CF.
Quote:
I never wanted to trade Kelenic. But the reality is and continues to be that top closers get traded for premium prospects. The price was always going to sting. I vividly remember you saying you wished we had included Alonso instead of Kelenic. How would you have felt about that now? Alonso likely is the Rookie of the Year.
In retrospect Cano has struggled and Diaz hasn't been quite as dominant (although not really bad) and the trade does look worse.
Time will tell how bad it actually is but I doubt it goes down as one of the worsts ever if Diaz is serviceable.
And I fully expect Kelenic to be a good player in MLB.
I still would rather have included Alonso than Kelenic.
But...that was because of the reports of Alonso's D not being "playable". If that was the case and Alonso was a DH playing 1B it made complete sense.
Even now though the feeling is less strong, but with Dom Smith showing he can play 1B and hit like we hoped, it would have been better long term for the Mets to have included Alonso than Kelenic.
This is even more true if Kelenic can remain in CF.
Man. You lose me there. Alonso is shaping up to be the best power bat in Mets history and he's proving it in the game not in single A. His D has also been more than fine so that eliminates his only weakness. You cant pick upside over proven talent in baseball IMO. But ok.
That's what it boils down to for me.
That's what it boils down to for me.
Ok but first your excluding Nimmo who will be back in a couple of days. I think Kelenic will be lucky to ever turn in a season as good as Nimmo's 2018. Second, you're assuming Dom wont carve at a niche in the OF or somewhere anyway and still help us WITH Alonso.
And I know I encouraged it with retrospect talk, but the trade would have been ridiculed 1000 times more if we anointed Smith the future at 1B at the time that deal was made. Smith was laughed at as a complete scrub heading into this season. And if Alonso was running away with Rookie of the Year in Seattle with 20 bombs people would be screaming at the trade even worse right now. Come on, you know it.
Either way, good discussion PJ.
Ramos, Cano, centerfielders, are killing this team. Rosario needs to be better but he’s fine if we didn’t have black holes in half the lineup.
But if the BP wasn’t horrific, this team would be in the mix if not leading the division.
Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean it defies comprehension.
Kelenic is 19 years old and OPS-ing over .900 between A and A+ ball.
He is right now the 42nd ranked prospect and plays a premium position.
at 19 Alonso was a freshman at Florida and in NCAA, not pro-ball he OPS'd .719
Alonso is 5 years older than Kelenic and plays a non-premium position.
At 19, Kelenic is OPS-ing a better clip than Alonso did at the same level. And Alonso was 22, not 19 when he was at that level.
Alonso's power is great, and he seems like a good kid, but it's like saying you'd prefer Chris Davis to Mike Trout because Davis hits 50 HR's.
Still. Things seem to be settling down. Familia has been better. Lugo is back. Gsellman is pretty good when Mickey's not being grinding into the ground. Wilson should be back soon. I really dont even hate Font has the long man and Gagnon in the mix as maybe the 6th guy.
It can use a guy at the deadline, sure, but I could also see this exact unit coming together without many changes.
Quote:
I find it hard to believe that even now you would prefer an A-ball prospect to be more valuable than Alonso. That's so ridiculous that it defies comprehension.
Just because you can't comprehend it doesn't mean it defies comprehension.
Kelenic is 19 years old and OPS-ing over .900 between A and A+ ball.
He is right now the 42nd ranked prospect and plays a premium position.
at 19 Alonso was a freshman at Florida and in NCAA, not pro-ball he OPS'd .719
Alonso is 5 years older than Kelenic and plays a non-premium position.
At 19, Kelenic is OPS-ing a better clip than Alonso did at the same level. And Alonso was 22, not 19 when he was at that level.
Alonso's power is great, and he seems like a good kid, but it's like saying you'd prefer Chris Davis to Mike Trout because Davis hits 50 HR's.
Not looking to argue but that's a really bad comparison man. You are going back to compare Alonso's upside years ago to Kelenic's now? Alonso has a .950 OPS in the majors right now year one of this control. What difference does it make what his upside was years ago in A ball. You are saying you would trade away a .950 OPS bat in the majors for a .900 bat in single A? The age thing doesnt matter either. Both teams will get a player for 6 years of control. Neither will be passed their prime at the end of that. If anything, it will likely be harder to re-sign Kelenic if he ends up a star and that will end up past the value of the trade anyway.
Well, C ya tomorrow.
Ramos, Cano, centerfielders, are killing this team. Rosario needs to be better but he’s fine if we didn’t have black holes in half the lineup.
But if the BP wasn’t horrific, this team would be in the mix if not leading the division.
IF it wasn’t the BP it would be something else, face it, this team stinks.
I would think maybe they could get some intl' bonus money for players like Frazier, Vargas, and maybe a C level prospect.
But I think we should seriously consider trading Syndergaard and Wheeler. We could probably get a haul.
I want to do what the Yankees did with Chapman with Wheeler. Trade him and then re-sign him. I think Wheelers to the Cubs for their catcher prosepct Amaya, and maybe Ian Happ and a third piece would do it for me. Then we can try to resign him in the off-season.
Last year Chris Archer had 3 years of control and brought back what at the time was viewed as a decent package, but was also risky bc both top prospects whose progress stalled at the MLB level kind of like Dom Smith and carried potential bust labels - though they have both ended up breaking out for TB.
I will say this though, similarly BVW's best move of the offseason was JD Davis. If there's another of those types of 4A guys out there who plays either CF or SP, and you have the chance to get that guy for Wheeler, I think you do it - if they are still out of it.
I don't think you do that for Thor though. If the Padres put a stud like Gore on the table maybe you consider it but supposedly they were unwilling to do that last offseason so I doubt that's changed now.
More than anything they need to just end it already with Callaway. The team is lifeless and lethargic, just like he is. He is numb to losing and that's how the team seems. They need a better leader - period. Good leadership can change everything.
It used to be you would generally get two first rounders (one a sandwich pick)
So, teams looking to acquire a player had to offer more in value than two firsts. They were also more willing to do it because they could in turn get two firsts if the player waled
I would think maybe they could get some intl' bonus money for players like Frazier, Vargas, and maybe a C level prospect.
But I think we should seriously consider trading Syndergaard and Wheeler. We could probably get a haul.
I want to do what the Yankees did with Chapman with Wheeler. Trade him and then re-sign him. I think Wheelers to the Cubs for their catcher prosepct Amaya, and maybe Ian Happ and a third piece would do it for me. Then we can try to resign him in the off-season.
The overvalue of Wheeler on here astounds me. What has he done aside from hover slightly above mediocrity? Can’t pitch past the 6th inning. That’s not a stud ace to me. Heck Thor rarely does that either and already looks to have list some luster on his fastball.
Neither are the aces that media touted them to be prematurely. Good luck getting anything great for an expiring contract no3-4 starter w injury history.
And good luck getting more than maybe one top prospect for Thor at this stage.p unless he goes on a tear and then why would you trade him? He has a couple left of control
And Thor lost some zip on his fastball - I think his average fastball is ranked right behind Vargas for starters, right?
Second, Thor missed almost all of 2016 and half of last year. By the time he built up that necessary burn where you start to see a tick or two more the season was over.
If he's healthy all season Im guessing he's still tickling 100 mph routinely in another month or two.
And pitched most of 2018.
you can explain it any way you want.
I read that the Mets don't want Syndergaard consistently throwing 100 anymore. At one point there was a stat in 2016 he had the most 100mph pitches by like 100 or more over 2nd place (who might have even been someone like Chapman as a reliever). I'll try and dig it up, but I'm not going to look too hard b/c it doesn't matter really. Results are what they are.
But, it was crazy how far ahead of any other starting pitcher he was with 100mph pitches.
My personal belief is last year Eiland/Callaway instituted this to help "save" his arm. And I'll also look for the article on this, but again, I'm not looking too hard because it doesn't matter.
but I do think the velocity decrease has impacted his effectiveness.
April 2017 Syndergaard was throwing harder than September 2018 so your theory is not fact-based wrt to Syndergaard's available facts.
2015. 97.7
2016. 98.9 (only full healthy season in the majors)
2017. 99.5 (SSS missed most of the year)
2018. 98.1 (Half season)
2019. 98.3 (2 months and a week or so)
Is this really even worth discussing?
but he would consistently hit it in almost every game.
now he rarely does.
If you don't think velocity makes a difference or if there is no difference in velocity it's a cold weather/warm weathe rthing then sure, it's moot not worth discussion but it's not just the average that's important, it's the peaks, he's struggling to put batters away.
his sinker velocity is lower too.
What has been the problem or do you feel like he's just his usual self?
And his FB has been flat
What's more likely? He is struggling a bit because he isnt changing speeds as well and doesnt have that ridiculous Warthen slider he threw in 2016 anymore which was a ++ pitch or he is 6/10ths of one MPH off his fastball average from his best season ever?
And his FB has been flat
Yup. Its like he completely forgot how to put run on the fastball and very specifically how to throw his slider. Change comes and goes too and that was very effective for a while. Im not seeing any issues with his velocity though. The guy is hitting 99 or so in almost every start.
And his FB has been flat
Losing velocity on the FB makes the secondary pitches less effective.
Pedro talks all the time about this topic. he explains how it makes Syndergaard specifically so effective (he did in 2016 at least). He talks at length about the gap between a 101 mph fastball and a low 90's slider. not to mention a change up or straight curve like Syndergaard has.
As that gap lessens it makes it harder for those secondary pitches to be effective - less margin for error.
just my opinion.
Agree and his change up, but read this from Altuve about Syndergaard in Spring training 2018, if you don't think to major league hitters velocity matters:
"His stuff is as good at it comes in baseball," Brian McCann said. "He's in that one percent of the league that can…his slider's at 93, the fastball is 100, the change-up right up there with anyone.
"You get up there and you've gotta be aggressive because when a guy has three put-away pitches, you don't want to let him get to two strikes."
To that, Altuve explained how Syndergaard's changeup got him looking, too frozen to offer a swing.
"That was a great changeup," Altuve said afterward, his eyes widening as he spoke. "If he throws me that changeup 100 times, he's going to strike me out 100 times."
Because of the deception or the movement, the Astros' second baseman was asked.
"I mean, the guy throws 101," Altuve said, as if no other explanation was necessary.
.....