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NFT: Brisket to Corned Beef to Pastrami

Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 7:20 pm
As long as we've got our BBI chefs around this weekend, I'll run this by you all. I'm having a July 4th party at my house and the theme this year is going to be Jewish deli. I'm doing a trial run right now, 3 days into it, curing a brisket for corned beef. I'm then going to take it on to pastrami. Anyone done this? How did it work out? I've tried curing my own lox a couple of times and it came out like crap. but I don't want to end up buying Boar's Head Pastrami out here. I test-ran some black and white cookies and they were outstanding. Also, as I mentioned to Drew, I may try kishke. Doing tongue with a sweet and sour sauce too. And I've got Fox's syrup for eggcreams. I've got some former NYers coming, but this might be a shock for the others :)
If you're going hard-core Jewish deli,  
81_Great_Dane : 6/8/2019 7:31 pm : link
then you don't serve egg creams with meat.

I'm Jewish on both sides. My parents preferred Dr. Brown's soda with deli food, and I concur with that. Their Cel-Ray (celery-flavored soda) is one of the more peculiar libations you'll ever find, but it does pair well with deli meats. Dr. Brown's cream soda and black cherry, also both good.

Also: This puts you in the egg cream vs chocolate phosphate debate. My dad, being a New Yorker, was an egg cream guy. My mother grew up in Cleveland and always swore by the chocolate phosphate, which is non-dairy and so could be served with meat under kosher rules. Though my father's family was more observant than my mother's, so I think it's just what she grew up with.

I've become dairy intolerant so I've shifted away from egg creams, but Canter's deli here in L.A. makes a mean chocolate phosphate. I think to do a proper phosphate you have to buy the phosphate powder, which is available online.
Phuck phospates, LOL  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 7:39 pm : link
I'm going eggcreams :) Never had a phosphate and I'm not gonna try now. And it may not be enough, but I went with "Jewish" deli vs kosher deli to try to avoid the meat and milk schtick.
Deli  
floridafan : 6/8/2019 7:40 pm : link
Katz's ships
RE: If you're going hard-core Jewish deli,  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14467076 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
then you don't serve egg creams with meat.

I'm Jewish on both sides. My parents preferred Dr. Brown's soda with deli food, and I concur with that. Their Cel-Ray (celery-flavored soda) is one of the more peculiar libations you'll ever find, but it does pair well with deli meats. Dr. Brown's cream soda and black cherry, also both good.

Also: This puts you in the egg cream vs chocolate phosphate debate. My dad, being a New Yorker, was an egg cream guy. My mother grew up in Cleveland and always swore by the chocolate phosphate, which is non-dairy and so could be served with meat under kosher rules. Though my father's family was more observant than my mother's, so I think it's just what she grew up with.

I've become dairy intolerant so I've shifted away from egg creams, but Canter's deli here in L.A. makes a mean chocolate phosphate. I think to do a proper phosphate you have to buy the phosphate powder, which is available online.


Oh, and my wife found some Dr. Brown's cream soda a while back, she just has to remember where :)
RE: Deli  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14467088 floridafan said:
Quote:
Katz's ships


As a last resort maybe. I'm a cook, not a meat slicer, so I'd much prefer to do it on my own. But thanks
Floridafan  
GFiLA : 6/8/2019 7:56 pm : link
Dam you now I can’t stop thinking about Katz.
RE: Phuck phospates, LOL  
81_Great_Dane : 6/8/2019 7:58 pm : link
In comment 14467084 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
I'm going eggcreams :) Never had a phosphate and I'm not gonna try now. And it may not be enough, but I went with "Jewish" deli vs kosher deli to try to avoid the meat and milk schtick.
I was an egg cream guy but I have to admit a phosphate is just fine.
Corned Beef to Pastrami  
Buzzard64 : 6/8/2019 7:59 pm : link
I have been making this for years with great success. I use store bought Corned Beef.....never started from scratch with a Brisket but that sounds like something I'd like to try. Basically I rinse the Corned Beef and discard the spice packet. Then I apply this rub and smoke it for 3 hours @245 degrees, then another hour wrapped in foil.

The rub:
1 tbs Ground Corriander
1 tbs Coarse Ground Black Pepper
1 tbs Garlic Powder
1 tbs Hungarian Paprika
1/4 tsp Ground Ginger
1/4 tsp Ground Cloves

Let cool and slice across the grain. This Pastrami rocks and rivals any deli. Good luck Bill.
I forgot  
Buzzard64 : 6/8/2019 8:00 pm : link
My preference is Pecan wood chips.
Alton Brown on Good Eats had a corned beef episode...  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/8/2019 8:04 pm : link
...he used salt peter as a necessary ingredient.

Link to recipe


Good East Corned Beef Episode - ( New Window )
Awesome idea, by the way  
sb from NYT Forum : 6/8/2019 8:05 pm : link
...I bet it's going to be fun af.
RE: Alton Brown on Good Eats had a corned beef episode...  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 8:09 pm : link
In comment 14467127 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
...he used salt peter as a necessary ingredient.

Link to recipe
Good East Corned Beef Episode - ( New Window )


I checked out AB's recipe. I ended up going with Prague Powder #1 (pink curing salt) which is basically sodium nitrite, and I saw it on more recipes,
RE: Corned Beef to Pastrami  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 8:12 pm : link
In comment 14467116 Buzzard64 said:
Quote:
I have been making this for years with great success. I use store bought Corned Beef.....never started from scratch with a Brisket but that sounds like something I'd like to try. Basically I rinse the Corned Beef and discard the spice packet. Then I apply this rub and smoke it for 3 hours @245 degrees, then another hour wrapped in foil.

The rub:
1 tbs Ground Corriander
1 tbs Coarse Ground Black Pepper
1 tbs Garlic Powder
1 tbs Hungarian Paprika
1/4 tsp Ground Ginger
1/4 tsp Ground Cloves

Let cool and slice across the grain. This Pastrami rocks and rivals any deli. Good luck Bill.


Thanks, buzz. I've seen several recipes that say that store bought corned beef isn't nearly as good as homemade, so I decided to try that route. If it comes out awful. store bought may be my default.
btw, if anyone wants to try this  
Bill in UT : 6/8/2019 8:16 pm : link
the recipe I settled on is linked
Link - ( New Window )
Bill  
njjintfan : 6/8/2019 8:49 pm : link
I have made recipe, its fantastic
All sounds awesome-  
CRinCA : 6/8/2019 9:31 pm : link
But I would add chopped liver IMHO. I did a similar theme for my wife's family a few years back and that was key. Enjoy and I hope it turns out awesome!
Oh and Bill  
CRinCA : 6/8/2019 9:33 pm : link
I'd kill for one of your black and whites.
So ... um  
short lease : 6/8/2019 9:39 pm : link

What time Bill?
It sounds stupid because we say sous vide everything  
Bill L : 6/8/2019 9:46 pm : link
But I really like sous viding the pastrami. I usually dry cure my pastrami (oddly if it’s only going to be corned beef wet cure it... to sure why, just a habit). I soak it real well and put the rub on which is largely garlic power, coarsely ground black pepper and coarsely ground coriander. Sous vide for a couple days and then dry it, maybe rub again and smoke for a few hours at a pretty low temp. (Or you can smoke first, it works well either way). I like it better than steaming after smoking. You can control the tenderness better sv, IMO
I do the same as buzzard's  
jcn56 : 6/8/2019 10:12 pm : link
Store bought corned beef, soaked to remove some salt then smoked.

I've cured it from scratch, not really any advantage and more work.
RE: All sounds awesome-  
Bill in UT : 6/9/2019 1:47 am : link
In comment 14467191 CRinCA said:
Quote:
But I would add chopped liver IMHO. I did a similar theme for my wife's family a few years back and that was key. Enjoy and I hope it turns out awesome!


We make chopped liver for Passover and only about half the people eat it, so I think I'll leave it out for this. Probably only 2 people will eat the tongue, lol, but I haven't made it in forever and wanted to give it a try.
RE: Oh and Bill  
Bill in UT : 6/9/2019 1:52 am : link
In comment 14467195 CRinCA said:
Quote:
I'd kill for one of your black and whites.


CR, unless you come to AZ, this is the best I can do:

Recipe from American Test Kitchens

Cookie
1 and 3/4 cups (220g) all-purpose flour (spoon & leveled) (or more as needed, see note)*
1/2 teaspoon baking powder
1/4 teaspoon baking soda
1/4 teaspoon salt
10 Tablespoons (145g) unsalted butter, softened to room temperature
1 cup (200g) granulated sugar
1 large egg, at room temperature
2 teaspoons pure vanilla extract
1/3 cup (80g) full-fat sour cream, at room temperature*
Icing
5 and 1/2 cups (660g) confectioners’ sugar, sifted (measure before sifting)
7 Tablespoons (105ml) whole milk, divided
2 Tablespoons light corn syrup
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1/2 teaspoon salt
3 Tablespoons (18g) unsweetened natural or dutch-process cocoa powder*

Directions
Preheat oven to 350°F (180°C). Line 2 baking sheets with parchment paper or silicone baking mats.
Whisk the flour, baking powder, baking soda, and salt together in medium bowl. Set aside.
In a large bowl using a handheld or stand mixer fitted with a paddle attachment, beat the butter and sugar together on medium-high speed until smooth and creamy, about 2 minutes. Add the egg and vanilla extract, and beat on high speed until combined, about 1 minute. Scrape down the sides and up the bottom of the bowl and beat again as needed to combine. Reduce to low speed and add the dry ingredients in 3 additions, alternating with the sour cream. Beat everything on low until combined and no pockets of flour remain. Batter is extremely thick.
Using a greased 1/4-cup dry measuring cup, drop mounds of dough 4 inches apart on prepared baking sheets– 6 cookies per sheet. Bake for 16-18 minutes or until the edges are lightly browned. Allow cookies to cool on the baking sheets for 5 minutes, then transfer to a wire rack to cool completely before icing.
Make the icings: Whisk the confectioners’ sugar, 6 Tablespoons milk, the corn syrup, vanilla extract, and salt together in a medium bowl. Transfer 1 cup to a separate bowl, add remaining Tablespoon of milk and the cocoa powder. Whisk until combined.
Spread vanilla icing onto half of the cookies– the flat side. Refrigerate for 15 minutes or until set so that the icings do not bleed into each other. Spread chocolate icing onto other side and allow the icing to set completely, about 1 hour, before serving.
Cookies will stay fresh in an airtight container at room temperature for 2 days or in the refrigerator for up to 1 week.

Notes
Make Ahead Instructions: You’ll want to bake this cookie dough right away as the baking powder is initially activated once wet. You can, however, bake the cookies in step 4, cool completely, cover tightly, and store at room temperature for up to 3 days before continuing with step 5. Frosted or unfrosted cookies freeze well for up to 3 months. Thaw overnight in the refrigerator and bring to room temperature before serving or frosting.
Special Tools: KitchenAid Stand Mixer | Glass Mixing Bowls | Silpat Baking Mat | Cookie Sheets | Cooling Rack | Cookie Icing Spatula
Room Temperature: This is important!! But, mostly, the butter will curdle with some of the batter ingredients are colder than it.
Batter Consistency: If your batter isn’t super thick– thick somewhere between cookie dough and pancake batter- try adding an extra 2-3 Tablespoons of flour before scooping and baking. The cookies spread too much if the batter isn’t thick enough.
Sour Cream: I strongly suggest using full-fat sour cream in this cookie batter. Full-fat plain Greek yogurt works as well, but you’ll get the most tender texture from sour cream. So keep that in mind!
Cocoa Powder:You can use either natural-style or dutch-process cocoa powder in the icing. It doesn’t matter since there is no leavening occurring. (Here’s the difference between the two!) I prefer dutch-process or a dark cocoa, like Hershey’s special dark cocoa.
you definitely don't do egg creams with meat  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/9/2019 9:01 am : link
it's not kosher and therefore against Jewish dietary law -- so it pulverizes the idea of dong a Jewish theme


true story -- I went to my friends jewish deli with a non jewish buddy and he ordered a ham and cheese sandwich. Two strikes!!!! Anyone care to take that on? LoL

RE: you definitely don't do egg creams with meat  
Mike in NY : 6/9/2019 9:08 am : link
In comment 14467281 gidiefor said:
Quote:
it's not kosher and therefore against Jewish dietary law -- so it pulverizes the idea of dong a Jewish theme


true story -- I went to my friends jewish deli with a non jewish buddy and he ordered a ham and cheese sandwich. Two strikes!!!! Anyone care to take that on? LoL


You mean the two non-Kosher items don’t cancel each other out? Much like a bacon cheeseburger. :)
Don't forget the pickled tomatoes.  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 9:18 am : link
(See, another way I like tomatoes).
RE: RE: you definitely don't do egg creams with meat  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/9/2019 9:26 am : link
In comment 14467287 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14467281 gidiefor said:


Quote:


it's not kosher and therefore against Jewish dietary law -- so it pulverizes the idea of dong a Jewish theme


true story -- I went to my friends jewish deli with a non jewish buddy and he ordered a ham and cheese sandwich. Two strikes!!!! Anyone care to take that on? LoL




You mean the two non-Kosher items don’t cancel each other out? Much like a bacon cheeseburger. :)


Lol -- Mike -- we have been teasing him for 4 decades about this
Katz's  
floridafan : 6/9/2019 9:40 am : link
When I was a youngster we grew up in Bayside Queens.
My father was a kosher butcher.
He supplied the meat to Pastrami King on Queens Blvd.
Very heavy on the smoke and garlic but delicious.
It is not easy to get a decent kosher deli sandwich down in
Miami.
We get back to NY 2-3 times a year and Katz's is a must.
RE: Katz's  
Mike in NY : 6/9/2019 10:25 am : link
In comment 14467307 floridafan said:
Quote:
When I was a youngster we grew up in Bayside Queens.
My father was a kosher butcher.
He supplied the meat to Pastrami King on Queens Blvd.
Very heavy on the smoke and garlic but delicious.
It is not easy to get a decent kosher deli sandwich down in
Miami.
We get back to NY 2-3 times a year and Katz's is a must.


I know it is a chain, but I do like TooJay’s when I am in South Florida
Bill  
CRinCA : 6/9/2019 11:28 am : link
Thanks!
Buzz and Bills  
Bill in UT : 6/11/2019 7:23 pm : link
Finished the corned beef yesterday and had a sandwich today. It was pretty good. I'm more of a pastrami fan than corned beef. Smoking it tomorrow. I can't get my head into sous viding something for a couple of days. I've never gone over a few hours. Anyway, when I make my ribs, I smoke them around 225 for 2 hours, then finish them in the oven wrapped in foil. I open the foil the last half hour or so to let some of the moisture dissipate. I'll probably do it like buzzard- 3 hours smoking, finish in foil. I've only used my Traeger smoker for smoking so far, but I'm gonna try this in my Egg. I've gotta get some use out of that, I spent a fortune for it, lol.
I grew up in the Bronx and Northern NJ,  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/11/2019 7:28 pm : link
went to university in NYC and worked at a deli as a counterman on the UWS to help pay my way through school, been to the Carnegie deli, Zabar's many many times, but have never been to Katz's to far as I recall. My brother might set me straight on that at some point.

But Katz's is definitely high on my list of "must-dos" next time I am in Manhattan. Which should be pretty soon.
God I love Pastrami  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/11/2019 7:32 pm : link
It's one of those perfect things in life.
I also worked in a deli as a young man  
Sneakers O'toole : 6/11/2019 7:33 pm : link
I probably gained 15 pounds working there.
I  
mitch300 : 6/11/2019 8:11 pm : link
Got this from someone on here.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I  
Bill in UT : 6/11/2019 10:05 pm : link
In comment 14469889 mitch300 said:
Quote:
Got this from someone on here. Link - ( New Window )


thanks, Mitch. I guess the thing is that if you want good pastrami, you need to start with good brisket/corned beef. I'm pretty confident in Costco brisket. If you get a pre-made corned beef from a supermarket, you need to know what kind of quality meat it is. I'd be nervous getting something from my local Kroegers
So Bill  
Buzzard64 : 6/15/2019 7:06 pm : link
How did the Pastrami turn out?????
RE: So Bill  
Bill in UT : 6/15/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14472978 Buzzard64 said:
Quote:
How did the Pastrami turn out?????


Thanks for asking, I wasn't going to revive the thread. It came out really good. I made it 3 ways to experiment- fully smoked, smoked then finished in foil, and smoked then steamed. I liked the smoked/foil version best. It steams in it's own juices. The regular steaming loses a little flavor I think. The smoked all the way may have been an unfair test because I started with one piece of corned beef, probably about 2 lbs that I cut into 3 pieces. The smoked piece was probably only about half a pound and could have dried out a bit more than a larger piece would have. That said, they were all good and better than anything I could buy at the local supermarket. I started this with a 17 pound whole prime brisket from Costco that I cut into 6 pieces. I used the top piece to make a sweet and sour brisket that I'm having tomorrow but I tasted it yesterday when I cooked it and it was outrageous. I put the thermometer into it and it slid in at 206 degrees like it was butter. But prime is pretty fatty- I love it that way but I'm not sure everyone does. So when I buy brisket for my party, I'm not sure if I should go prime or choice. For those of you who shop at Costco, it's so weird that the prime brisket is like $3.25 a pound but the choice is twice that much. There is more waste in the prime when you trim off the fat, and I wasn't seeing landmarks like I wanted to butchering it, but that price for prime meat is tough to pass up. That's for my July 4th party. In the meantime, I up to my ass getting ready to have 19 people over for my 70th birthday next week :) Already baked and froze dessert today- Ina Garten's Outrageous Brownies (if you haven't had them, take my word for it, they are) and her lemon pound cake which is also great. I'm making vanilla and coffee ice cream to serve with them. Life is good :)
What's your address again?  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/15/2019 8:38 pm : link
I'm looking free for the fourth, right now.

I make a wicked potato salad, slightly on the mustardy side.
RE: What's your address again?  
Bill in UT : 6/15/2019 9:06 pm : link
In comment 14473062 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
I'm looking free for the fourth, right now.

I make a wicked potato salad, slightly on the mustardy side.


My wife doesn't like too much mustard. Fuggetaboudit.
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