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How Daniel Jones is performing is underappreciated

Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 10:32 am
Most Giants fans hated the pick of Daniel Jones at #6. Many said it was an outright disastrous selection.

You can poo-poo OTAs and mini-camps all you want, but Daniel Jones has not been overwhelmed by any of it. In fact, if you compare the early reviews on him vis a vis Eli Manning in 2004, Daniel Jones has performed far better thus far.

Daniel Jones may or may not end up being a good QB, but as of mid-June, he has not disappointed at all.

And this is HUGELY positive when you consider the possible alternative (i.e., him looking like a train wreck).

Oddly, the media and fans don't seem to be appreciating the fact that so far, so good.

*********

Quote:
According to Giants tight end Evan Engram, who was a spectator for all three practices, Jones is also becoming more confident by the day.

“You can see him getting confident," Engram said Saturday night at the Landon Collins Charity Softball Game. "Anytime you’re coming in as a rookie, you’re going to be a little shaky or a little nervous. You kind of see him starting to brush that off, get into his groove and take advantage of everything he’s given.”

Throughout last week’s practices, Jones seemed to quickly go through his progressions, get rid of the football accurately while displaying better than expected arm-strength and deep ball accuracy.

Jones says that procession information quickly and going through his progressions is what he feels he’s improved on the most since being chosen No. 6 overall in the NFL Draft and has helped spawn his new found confidence.

“I think just thinking quicker," Jones said. "That’s the challenge for young guys to be able of react and just play. It’s about thinking as quick as you can and making the right decision as quick as you can. I’m just working on that.

...

Where some rookie quarterbacks would have a tendency to hold onto the football too long in the pocket, or force the ball into their first read, Jones has already shown an ability to read a defense and make the right throws. That hasn’t gone unnoticed by head coach Pat Shurmur.

“His head is swimming much less than most rookies for a couple reasons,” Shurmur said last week. "He’s very smart, he was coached extremely well in college, he’s been around it. He’s been coached by one of the best in college.

“He understands the process. Again, we call it a cat, they call it a dog, it doesn’t matter. He’s been around the process enough to know. (He’s) very perceptive, he doesn’t make the same mistake twice.”

As impressive as Jones has looked, and he already seems to belong on the field as a competent NFL quarterback, he still has a long way to go before realistically having a chance to supplant veteran Eli Manning as the starting quarterback.

In the meant time, Jones says he’s striving for continuously making progress in practice.

“I think I improved every day [during minicamp]," Jones said. "That’s the goal. I did some things better, did some things not as good, it’s about me being consistent, and I’m learning a lot. Trying to learn as much as I can.”


Why Giants’ Daniel Jones is brimming with confidence after strong spring - ( New Window )
It's TRUE that to play this well this quick  
Giantz_comeback : 6/9/2019 10:40 am : link
Is a pretty positive sign that what DG and company saw when they picked him is being further confirmed on the practice field.

If they are right on DJ than going QB at 6 was absolutely the right decision over any other position considering the importance of the position.

Regarding Eli though he was considered the most polished QB to come out. I think it's a bit of apples to oranges because Eli was thrust in a very different system under TC vs the much more QB friendly one under Shurmur. Heck even a Super winning QB in Warner struggled getting rid of the ball quickly in TCs system


I’m cautiously optimistic with Jones.  
Keaton028 : 6/9/2019 10:42 am : link
But I really want to see him become a star just because of how malicious everyone has been towards the pick. Shitting on the Giants is en vogue right now in the NFL community, and I’d love if Jones turns this narrative around.
Giantz_comeback  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 10:43 am : link
Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).
Cautiously optimistic describes my feelings too. I don't like to love  
Ira : 6/9/2019 10:46 am : link
or hate a pick this soon, but with Jones - so far so good.
Not by me  
robbieballs2003 : 6/9/2019 10:47 am : link
I liked Jones. I wouldn't have drafted him at 6 but I also believe when you have a QB that just makes sense for your team you will have to go get him and that usually means overpaying in one way or another.

As far as how he is doing, it has been very good news. I'd like to see this continue when the pads come on though before I start getting excited. With that said, for as long as I can remember rookie QBs have always struggled here. We can go through all the names since Manning like Woodson, Lorenzen, Bomar, Webb, Lauletta, etc. This might be the first time ever a rookie QB has been at least been looking solid.
The media and fans  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 6/9/2019 10:50 am : link
can be similar in that they are difficult to budge once dug in.

They are also alike in that they form these hard, aggressive, unbreakable opinions based on very little actual information.

Then to compound the issue they feed off of each other.
RE: Giantz_comeback  
Giantz_comeback : 6/9/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14467341 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).


Eric I agree he wasn't. But the systems were vastly different. Shurmurs system seem to get the best out of a QB. Very few were really successful running TCs system. The common denominator we saw was QBs holding the ball too long trying to process all the reads.

But this doesnt take away from what Jones is showing right now. It's quite encouraging. The next step up is to see it in preseason.

RE: The media and fans  
Giantz_comeback : 6/9/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14467345 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
can be similar in that they are difficult to budge once dug in.

They are also alike in that they form these hard, aggressive, unbreakable opinions based on very little actual information.

Then to compound the issue they feed off of each other.


My concern was he fit the profile so well of what they Giants look for on the surface in terms of personality and demeanor that they might have overrated the on field stuff when they watched the college film. So far that does not seem to be the case. Which is very encouraging. Next step up is to see it in live action in preseason.
One of the members at the club where I work  
The_Boss : 6/9/2019 10:56 am : link
Who knows I loathe DG and hated the Jones pick keeps telling me I’m going to end eating a shit sandwich. Of course, he was also adamant the NYG were going to be good in 2018 while I insisted they wouldn’t. My answer to him is always “I hope you’re right. I want to be wrong about Jones and DG”. Lighting it up in May and June does nothing for me. Keep it up in camp and in preseason and show me in games that count this fall.
RE: Giantz_comeback  
j_rud : 6/9/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14467341 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).


That first minicamp report was dreadful, and it put this place into full blown panic lol.
Very excited for pre season  
RobCarpenter : 6/9/2019 10:57 am : link
.
...  
christian : 6/9/2019 11:01 am : link
Jones always checked the boxes of a potential starting quarterback.

Fans get delusional that draft order some how predicts future success and get all flustered.

When a QB is picked in any draft is more related to need in the market, and if a quarterback succeeds is very dependent on the situation he is drafted into.

Jones can be a good starter if the Giants coaching staff improves and the talent overall on offense improves.
He has good athleticism......  
Simms11 : 6/9/2019 11:02 am : link
and he's very smart. A guy that was supposed to go to Princeton! My concern with Jones, and an area that was noted as weak, is his decision-making. Lets see how he performs after learning the offense and against live NFL action. Pre-Season Football this year will be real fun to watch.
Sy's big knock  
XBRONX : 6/9/2019 11:03 am : link
on Jones, was his thinking was slow. Not the case so far. We will see with live action.
I didn't like the pick but I think that had more to do  
bceagle05 : 6/9/2019 11:07 am : link
with the Giants being ripped apart the way they were - hope Jones makes the critics look like fools. Regarding his reviews thus far - those pre-season games will be must-watch.
XBronx  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/9/2019 11:09 am : link
Sy also qualified his comments on Jones - and left plenty of room for what he didn't know about him


Count me in the group that really liked Jones pre-draft -- I liked the film I watched on him better than any of the QBs picked last year or this year -- this dude is a fighter and can deliver the goods - he can handle real adversity and is a terrific athlete
Maybe Jones really is the goods...maybe not.  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 11:13 am : link
I'm still going to pooh-pooh OTA's and mini-camps.
You are 100% correct  
BSIMatt : 6/9/2019 11:16 am : link
If he were performing disastrously the Twitter sphere and giant fandom would likely have no issue citing it over and over as further proof as to what a horrible selection it was. He plays extremely well and it is immediately minimized as performing in “just shorts”. There was an article written the other day from a writer who observed Jones for 3 days in minicamp and had recent time observing Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz and said Jones looked better than either at their respective stages of development...and this was from a national writer, not some giants homer.


Then take these statements from Giants best writers:

Quote:

Art Stapleton Verified account
@art_stapleton
19h19 hours ago

He's the best rookie QB that I've covered on the beat already. I've been impressed by his willingness to push the ball downfield in a practice setting.
I think he might be more focused on accuracy and honing that on out routes vs air. Doesn't put a lot of velocity on those yet

Art Stapleton Verified account
@art_stapleton
19h19 hours ago

Daniel Jones' arm strength is certainly not lacking, and this week we got a chance to see just how accurate he is downfield. If minicamp is any indication, he's really, really good.


Patricia Traina:

"(Daniel Jones) has clearly had the most impressive spring of the Giants drafted quarterbacks in the last decade."

I'll admit predraft I thought if the Giants were to draft a QB at 6  
Blue21 : 6/9/2019 11:19 am : link
it should be Haskins. However, I admitted on many threads I am not a QB guru and also said no way would Jones last until 17 if that's who they wanted. Once they picked Jones I was on board. Hoping he's everything we hoped for and more. Read on many occasions his ceiling would be a Matt Ryan comparison. I'll take that who knows maybe he'll go beyond. Yes it's early but love what I'm reading so far.
Doesnt seem fair that he wont get a real shot  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/9/2019 11:20 am : link
To win the starting job.it flies against everything fans preach about wanting players to hold jobs on merit.
DJ8 so far  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/9/2019 11:26 am : link
Five by five, we're in the pipe.
Very Glad  
Glover : 6/9/2019 11:28 am : link
Jones looks like he belongs. I did not like the pick, as conventional wisdom had him as a late first rounder, or second round pick, but I understood the Giants were sold and that was all that mattered. I felt the same way when the Giants took Engram. I thought they should have taken Ramczyk there (or ironically, Jabrill Peppers, or even Njoku), but I knew with the signing of Ellison, and the pick of Engram, the Giants had a definite plan, and he was their guy.

Anyway, here's to Daniel Jones.

Everyone hates Ron Dayne, and think he was a bust, but picking him (and I know it could have been Alexander) lit a fire under Tiki's ass, and he played like an all time great Giant after that. Maybe we see a similar thing happen here with Eli, and maybe he finds a new level of focus and consistency that keeps Jones on the sideline.
RE: RE: Giantz_comeback  
barens : 6/9/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14467346 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14467341 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).



Eric I agree he wasn't. But the systems were vastly different. Shurmurs system seem to get the best out of a QB. Very few were really successful running TCs system. The common denominator we saw was QBs holding the ball too long trying to process all the reads.

But this doesnt take away from what Jones is showing right now. It's quite encouraging. The next step up is to see it in preseason.


Cmon now, was Coughlin's system that much harder to grasp? I think that's reaching a bit.

Not trying to knock Eli, but every QB grasps things at their own pace, and I think the QB's who can use their feet have a bit of an advantage when they first come into the league.
Exactly what should the fans be doing to properly appreciate  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 11:30 am : link
how Daniel Jones is performing thus far?
RE: Giantz_comeback  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 6/9/2019 11:31 am : link
In comment 14467341 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).

Keep in mind that was Gilbrides offense, you need a Warren fucking Moon caliber QB to run that o. Brady runs an o with many similarities.
Wildly optimistic...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 11:35 am : link
...!

So True  
Breaker : 6/9/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14467345 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
can be similar in that they are difficult to budge once dug in.

They are also alike in that they form these hard, aggressive, unbreakable opinions based on very little actual information.

Then to compound the issue they feed off of each other.


Agree we have to wait until live action with pads on in real games, but better these impressions than the opposite.

With the drive by media and talking heads so invested in hating Gettleman, trading OBJ and other moves etc, kudos will not come our way until Jones plays well in real games. As it should be in some respects. Until that time the echo chambers on national TV and the press that hate Gettleman will turn a blind eye to Jone's progress. That's to be expected and doesn't bother people who seriously follow the team.

RE: Exactly what should the fans be doing to properly appreciate  
Canton : 6/9/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14467384 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
how Daniel Jones is performing thus far?


Be enthusiastic. Have a renewed sense of hope, for our future QB.
I still don’t like picking Jones...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2019 11:37 am : link
at #6 until proven otherwise. People look great in the batting cage and on the practice tee, too. But then the lights go on and things change. So I take these practice reports in stride.

However, at least the news is good rather than Jones can’t hit the broad side of a barn and throws too many picks.

My position on this hasn’t changed - by taking Jones at #6 Jints Central has declared this guy a pro bowl caliber player. So with a decrepit QB, a rookie salary, and a time when the league has never been this QB friendly, Jones needs to start game one. And we need to stop this farce that Eli is still entitled to start for services rendered.

The sooner we figure who Jones is - boom or bust - the better for this organization to plan.
RE: RE: Exactly what should the fans be doing to properly appreciate  
j_rud : 6/9/2019 11:45 am : link
In comment 14467392 Canton said:
Quote:
In comment 14467384 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


how Daniel Jones is performing thus far?



Be enthusiastic. Have a renewed sense of hope, for our future QB.


Enthusiasm is lame. Much cooler to gripe and shit all over everything.
Vegas Line on Jones playing  
Breaker : 6/9/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14467393 bw in dc said:
Quote:
at #6 until proven otherwise. People look great in the batting cage and on the practice tee, too. But then the lights go on and things change. So I take these practice reports in stride.

However, at least the news is good rather than Jones can’t hit the broad side of a barn and throws too many picks.

My position on this hasn’t changed - by taking Jones at #6 Jints Central has declared this guy a pro bowl caliber player. So with a decrepit QB, a rookie salary, and a time when the league has never been this QB friendly, Jones needs to start game one. And we need to stop this farce that Eli is still entitled to start for services rendered.

The sooner we figure who Jones is - boom or bust - the better for this organization to plan.


7.5 is the Over/Under. I think the coaches are laying the groundwork for an early entry by Jones if Eli stumbles in the regular. Shula comments are eye opening and certainly weren't contradicted by anyone in organization.

Bottom line is jones has to show he's better. god forbid we open 1-3 to open season. all bets are off. team will do everything to avoid being irrelevant by beginning of November.
DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
gtt350 : 6/9/2019 11:49 am : link
would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.
RE: RE: Exactly what should the fans be doing to properly appreciate  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14467392 Canton said:
Quote:
In comment 14467384 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


how Daniel Jones is performing thus far?



Be enthusiastic. Have a renewed sense of hope, for our future QB.


I think there is a good bit. Clearly tempered somewhat because posters will typically caveat their opinions so as to not be too off-base.

But there is several "When will Jones take over...?" threads that are started each day.

Isn't that a form of appreciation and hope?
RE: Very Glad  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14467380 Glover said:
Quote:
Jones looks like he belongs. I did not like the pick, as conventional wisdom had him as a late first rounder, or second round pick, but I understood the Giants were sold and that was all that mattered. I felt the same way when the Giants took Engram. I thought they should have taken Ramczyk there (or ironically, Jabrill Peppers, or even Njoku), but I knew with the signing of Ellison, and the pick of Engram, the Giants had a definite plan, and he was their guy.

Anyway, here's to Daniel Jones.

Everyone hates Ron Dayne, and think he was a bust, but picking him (and I know it could have been Alexander) lit a fire under Tiki's ass, and he played like an all time great Giant after that. Maybe we see a similar thing happen here with Eli, and maybe he finds a new level of focus and consistency that keeps Jones on the sideline.


I'm going to have to disagree with your take on Tiki. He really need a few years in an NFL weight room and he started to produce before we drafted Ron Dayne. We drafted a RB because they probably never thought Tiki was going to be a 3 down RB workhorse, a fumbling playmaker that had some injury issues, but he kept adding muscle every year.
RE: DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 11:53 am : link
In comment 14467399 gtt350 said:
Quote:
would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.


Is this guy underappreciating Jones too much Eric?
RE: RE: DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
j_rud : 6/9/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14467402 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14467399 gtt350 said:


Quote:


would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.



Is this guy underappreciating Jones too much Eric?


Over-appreciating Elway for sure.
It'll be good to go back to this post down the line  
micky : 6/9/2019 11:56 am : link
😉
Oh btw, we interrupt this post  
micky : 6/9/2019 11:58 am : link
with an advertisement..
I liked him  
BigBlueJ : 6/9/2019 11:58 am : link
a couple of months before the draft. But you never know about these things. Maybe a Matt Ryan or maybe Ryan Fitzpatrick.
Please let him be great during games  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 12:00 pm : link
Whether it be 2019 or 2020 or 2021 etc.

I don't care about any early hype. Why should I?

Let-s face it-- tow of the experts on this board (SY and David Te) weren't impressed with Jones. The guy I most value is Greg Cosell and he had rated Jones 4th and didn't believe any of the 4 QB's described a top 6 pick.

And many on here respect Gil Brandt a ton - so this year he had Allen, Oliver (Who I liked as the the 6th pick) and Sweat all rated ahead of Jones as the 6th pick. He had Jones 17 and yet last year he had Rosen 2nd overall.

I'm supposed to throw all this away because of summer hype? Why bother even having SY or David TE then - especially if others whom you value also feel in some manner what you feel?

And how often have we heard of hype only to get a major letdown? What's the last line in the below article?

"Eli Apple is going to be a stud."

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/07/new-york-giants-eli-apple-glimpse-into-future/

***There is nothing wrong with being skeptical but hopeful. I'm hopeful. I just never have liked "rah rah cheerleading" and I'm not saying this thread is that. NOT AT ALL. You see something you love in him. GREAT!!! Just saying for me I want to see wins. Hey if Jones turns out to be the 28th rated QB and yet the GMEN still win multiple SB's with him because he plays solid in the playoffs -- I'll be thrilled with Jones because winning is all that matters.


What's underappreciated about Jones is that he could be a good QB  
Eric on Li : 6/9/2019 12:01 pm : link
for all the bitching about value, passing on Josh Allen, Haskins, and the Cutcliffe/Mannings noise if you get a good QB at pick #6 overall it's a great pick. Period.

Jones playing well in 2 hand touch minicamp doesn't need appreciation and it doesn't mean much. But him impressing the coaches + his teammates does again allude to the underappreciated possibility that this guy may just have what it takes to be a good qb.
I'm sure Eli Apple looked great in minicamp.  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 12:04 pm : link
Guys are using their hands way more than is allowed in an NFL game. It is my one hesitation on Baker, but Eli Apple was way more handsy in college. I think CB can be the toughest position to evaluate from college to NFL because it is a completely different game out on the boundaries.
To the point of  
David B. : 6/9/2019 12:06 pm : link
I think I'm beginning to see evidence among the media, including some of those who panned the pick, beginning to acknowledge that the Giants may have gotten it right on Jones.

I thought Pete Prisco's article last week was the best example of starting to address this subject. That hey, in person, his arm looks much stronger than advertised, and hey, in person, he looks pretty darn accurate. And that he's obviously smart AND football smart because he's picking it up fast and not repeating mistakes.

Not that I've seen anyone say "hey, I (personally) was wrong," not even Prisco, but he did say:

"What most didn't realize is that the NFL personnel people liked Jones a lot more than the draft analysts did. That's why there was the uproar. How dare a team go off-script?"

Excuse me Pete, but aren't you one of those draft analysts?

His instant analysis was to give the pick a D grade: I wanted to give this pick an 'F.' I like Daniel Jones, but I just don't like him in this spot. They must have gotten intelligence that another team was going to take him before 17. I like him, but not at No. 6. It's a strange pick this early.


Football is a prove it to me world, and Jones will have to do that in real games before anyone admits they were wrong. And even if he turns out great, some of these assholes (including those here) will still never admit they were wrong.

But as the positive reports trickle out, if you're paying attention, good signs are apparent.
Daniel Jones impressing in first Giants minicamp, but he's letting his play do the talking - ( New Window )
Sixth Pick Has To Be Top Ten in League In Time  
Breaker : 6/9/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14467414 giantstock said:
Quote:
Whether it be 2019 or 2020 or 2021 etc.

I don't care about any early hype. Why should I?

Let-s face it-- tow of the experts on this board (SY and David Te) weren't impressed with Jones. The guy I most value is Greg Cosell and he had rated Jones 4th and didn't believe any of the 4 QB's described a top 6 pick.

And many on here respect Gil Brandt a ton - so this year he had Allen, Oliver (Who I liked as the the 6th pick) and Sweat all rated ahead of Jones as the 6th pick. He had Jones 17 and yet last year he had Rosen 2nd overall.

I'm supposed to throw all this away because of summer hype? Why bother even having SY or David TE then - especially if others whom you value also feel in some manner what you feel?

And how often have we heard of hype only to get a major letdown? What's the last line in the below article?

"Eli Apple is going to be a stud."

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/07/new-york-giants-eli-apple-glimpse-into-future/

***There is nothing wrong with being skeptical but hopeful. I'm hopeful. I just never have liked "rah rah cheerleading" and I'm not saying this thread is that. NOT AT ALL. You see something you love in him. GREAT!!! Just saying for me I want to see wins. Hey if Jones turns out to be the 28th rated QB and yet the GMEN still win multiple SB's with him because he plays solid in the playoffs -- I'll be thrilled with Jones because winning is all that matters.

RE: RE: RE: Giantz_comeback  
robbieballs2003 : 6/9/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14467383 barens said:
Quote:
In comment 14467346 Giantz_comeback said:


Quote:


In comment 14467341 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Eli Manning was not getting these kind of positive reports in the spring 2004. (I'm not even talking about his rough rookie regular season).



Eric I agree he wasn't. But the systems were vastly different. Shurmurs system seem to get the best out of a QB. Very few were really successful running TCs system. The common denominator we saw was QBs holding the ball too long trying to process all the reads.

But this doesnt take away from what Jones is showing right now. It's quite encouraging. The next step up is to see it in preseason.




Cmon now, was Coughlin's system that much harder to grasp? I think that's reaching a bit.

Not trying to knock Eli, but every QB grasps things at their own pace, and I think the QB's who can use their feet have a bit of an advantage when they first come into the league.


One, it wasn't Coughlin's system. Two, yes. It was extremely difficult to grasp which is why nobody runs that offense now.
RE: I still don’t like picking Jones...  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14467393 bw in dc said:
Quote:
at #6 until proven otherwise. People look great in the batting cage and on the practice tee, too. But then the lights go on and things change. So I take these practice reports in stride.

However, at least the news is good rather than Jones can’t hit the broad side of a barn and throws too many picks.

My position on this hasn’t changed - by taking Jones at #6 Jints Central has declared this guy a pro bowl caliber player. So with a decrepit QB, a rookie salary, and a time when the league has never been this QB friendly, Jones needs to start game one. And we need to stop this farce that Eli is still entitled to start for services rendered.

The sooner we figure who Jones is - boom or bust - the better for this organization to plan.


This is a moronic sentiment. If Jones would over the next 13 years exactly duplicate the career of Peyton Manning (ironically enough, the exact QB his staunchest supporters have compared him to coming out of college), would it make sense for the Giants to start him over Eli at this stage of Eli's career?

The clear answer if you review how Peyton performed as a rookie is NO.

Eli isn't some piece of garbage at this point, despite the Giants' poor records the past 2 years. He simply isn't.
Without even buying into the arm strength argument  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 12:20 pm : link
because I still want to see him throw deep outs on a line in games, more and more the athleticism of Jones and most importantly his mental makeup and approach seem to put him in a class that I'd call floor of Alex Smith and ceiling of Joe Montana.

How's that for optimism?
RE: Doesnt seem fair that he wont get a real shot  
djm : 6/9/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14467373 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To win the starting job.it flies against everything fans preach about wanting players to hold jobs on merit.


Never say never. Lots of myths go bye bye in the pro sports world.
RE: RE: I still don’t like picking Jones...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2019 12:58 pm : link
In comment 14467429 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:


This is a moronic sentiment. If Jones would over the next 13 years exactly duplicate the career of Peyton Manning (ironically enough, the exact QB his staunchest supporters have compared him to coming out of college), would it make sense for the Giants to start him over Eli at this stage of Eli's career?

The clear answer if you review how Peyton performed as a rookie is NO.

Eli isn't some piece of garbage at this point, despite the Giants' poor records the past 2 years. He simply isn't.


I don't like, or get, the Peyton comp. They are such different players at this point. But keep in mind Peyton did start his rookie season. And he was better off for it because he gained the most critical part of adjusting to life in the NFL - experience. Especially for the QB position. Once accumulated, the game slowed down and then it was clear the Colts made the right choice.

It's the best formula in our situation because we are not winning a SB with Eli. It's just not happening. The odds are lottery-like.

So I'm not just into this sentimentality non-sense of playing an Eli Farewell Tour. The more Eli plays the less time we have to take advantage of the Jones's rookie contract and determine if Jones can indeed play.

Sorry, but that's anything but moronic.
Can we wait until they start playing with pads on against other teams  
Rick in Dallas : 6/9/2019 1:06 pm : link
Before we make any judgments either positive or negative about Jones. A lot of players look good in shorts in OTA’s and mini camps and crap out when real games begin. I will be rooting hard for Jones to be the real deal.
RE: Sixth Pick Has To Be Top Ten in League In Time  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14467422 Breaker said:
Quote:
In comment 14467414 giantstock said:


Quote:


Whether it be 2019 or 2020 or 2021 etc.

I don't care about any early hype. Why should I?

Let-s face it-- tow of the experts on this board (SY and David Te) weren't impressed with Jones. The guy I most value is Greg Cosell and he had rated Jones 4th and didn't believe any of the 4 QB's described a top 6 pick.

And many on here respect Gil Brandt a ton - so this year he had Allen, Oliver (Who I liked as the the 6th pick) and Sweat all rated ahead of Jones as the 6th pick. He had Jones 17 and yet last year he had Rosen 2nd overall.

I'm supposed to throw all this away because of summer hype? Why bother even having SY or David TE then - especially if others whom you value also feel in some manner what you feel?

And how often have we heard of hype only to get a major letdown? What's the last line in the below article?

"Eli Apple is going to be a stud."

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/07/new-york-giants-eli-apple-glimpse-into-future/

***There is nothing wrong with being skeptical but hopeful. I'm hopeful. I just never have liked "rah rah cheerleading" and I'm not saying this thread is that. NOT AT ALL. You see something you love in him. GREAT!!! Just saying for me I want to see wins. Hey if Jones turns out to be the 28th rated QB and yet the GMEN still win multiple SB's with him because he plays solid in the playoffs -- I'll be thrilled with Jones because winning is all that matters.





Noooo-- it doesn't. Who gives a shit as long as we win Super Bowls?

What;s more important winning? Or where you were picked?

This also goes for those that are so freaking emotional for those of us who think the Jones pick was a bad move. They seem to think we need to either"apologize" or "admit" to "being wrong." That's a crock of shit.

Winning is what matters. Getting your panties twisted over predictions made and what the media said prior while in the moment your team is winning is just so idiotic. IMO you should be more interested in what the team needs to do to be better for that next year rather than worry about what a poster r media person said two years ago etc.

I'm the 1st to admit I hate DG. And imo he has made awful moves that someone more competent I feel could have done better. I despise his way, his arrogance and his lying etc. But if he wins-- my hate will turn - and I'll call him "colorful." A "colorful winner." Would it matter years prior I hated the guy as I watch our team win Super Bowl(s)? Not one bit. Winning is all that matters.
Everything to this point is meaningless  
since1925 : 6/9/2019 1:14 pm : link
I would like to see Jones do well. But he is a third round talent we picked at #6 overall. No amount of good reads and throws in shorts will change that.
Carson Wentz forced the Eagles hand during camp in his rookie year  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 1:15 pm : link
Remember the plan was for Sam Bradford to start, but he was performing so well in camp that they shipped him outta town for premium draft picks even after Wentz had a poor preseason game, the only he played. He ended up with poor season, but you could tell he had big time potential. Similar to where Sam Darnold is now. Wentz lit up the preseason in his second year and became one of the best QBs in the NFL when healthy.

Our situation is a little bit different, but you never know until the real bullets fly. Unless DJ absolutely lights it up during the preseason and live scrimmages (can't remember the last time a rookie lit up a preseason) it is hard to imagine him starting.

You don't go into a season tanking it before the season even starts. Eli is a mostly known commodity at this point. He can effectively be a game manager. With the improved offensive line, will his immobility absolutely kill his game still? We'll find that out this year, but I'm all for giving Eli his opportunity to start the season to win games and play well, but as soon as one of those things isn't happening it will be time for DJ if he is ready.
So far Jones has performed very well in all aspects  
TMS : 6/9/2019 1:15 pm : link
by most accounts. Perfect stuff for our future QB to have demonstrated. Hope the urge to have him replace ELI too soon, does not break the team apart if we falter early next season.
Most sports fans criticize loudly...  
Racer : 6/9/2019 1:22 pm : link
...and praise softly.

Praising loudly for anything other than a 'W' on the schedule is also generally perceived by the LCD as weakness.
Its true, it’s better he looks good now than look terrible.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 6/9/2019 1:27 pm : link
Has anyone heard of anyone looking terrible at this point?

The other Debbie Downer point may be that Jones is simply a high floor guy and he looks advanced here because of Cutcliffe.

Who knows but yes, it’s better he look good now than look bad.
It's moronic because most your assumptions aren't based on truths.  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 1:33 pm : link
Let's examine them one by one:

1) Giants won't win an SB with Eli at QB in 2019 - OK 1st assumption is good.
2) Starting experience a QB's rookie year is crucial - Um NO.
Of the top 4 QBs in the NFL today, arguably: (Mahomes, Brady, Brees and Rogers) NOT ONE OF THEM STARTED AS A ROOKIE. IE, you simply made your assumption up out of thin air, it's unfounded. And you can dig through NFL history to corroborate that if you like. Not to mention examples of QBs who started as rookies who were likely damaged by the experience, like David Carr.
3) Eli is decrepit. Well, this is belied by the fact he had one of his best statistical years ever last year, in his 1st year under PS. IMO he's likely to improve on that year 2 especially if the OL performs better. So wrong again.
4) The Giants are "wasting" DJ8's salary cap year. Well, if the team isn't going to the superbowl regardless of whether Eli or DJ is at QB, how does the salary cap savings (that theoretically allows the Giants to purchase a better FA or two) really matter? Not much, bad assumption #4.
5) Eli is the designated starter based on some payback for "services rendered." Really? I doubt PS sees it that way at all. He's the designated starter because at this point they think Eli will outperform DJ8. Bad assumption #4 out of 5.

Whatever, if your assumptions are correct, it's not a moronic position. Show me (Lord knows I'm not asking for proof) how your assumptions are valid.

I was surprised that DG went QB, but liked Jones  
George from PA : 6/9/2019 1:42 pm : link
Liked even better, when we got Dexter Lawrence and Baker......if balance of draft continues to impress....entire draft looks great.

So far, so good with Daniel.
It’s pretty simple for me  
LauderdaleMatty : 6/9/2019 1:51 pm : link
It’s didnt want to pass up a star position player for an Andy Dalton. No one knows how that will play out. After passing on Allen which was an obvious need I wasn't too happy. But I do agree the kid by all accounts looks legit.

The three first ballot HOF QBs of Rodgers Brady and Brees were all passed by by almost ever team. Let’s not pretend this is some exact science. Jones may be a HOF Guy Or not. But most people just won’t admit they weren’t wrong.

Me I’m happy as hell he looks legit.
It’s good news that he’s a quick learnet  
Les in TO : 6/9/2019 2:11 pm : link
Look forward to seeing him in the preseason
It's good that Jones has been impressive in OTAs and minicamp.  
81_Great_Dane : 6/9/2019 2:15 pm : link
But I remember Jonas Seawright being called something like "virtually unblock able."

All signs are positive so far but it's very, very early.
I still  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 2:31 pm : link
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."
Of course it matters but  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 2:40 pm : link
as a building block. There will be many...
RE: I still  
BestFeature : 6/9/2019 2:44 pm : link
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."


We have people more invested in being right than the Giants doing well, so they'll make excuses to fever their original opinions.
RE: RE: I still  
BestFeature : 6/9/2019 2:44 pm : link
In comment 14467509 BestFeature said:
Quote:
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."



We have people more invested in being right than the Giants doing well, so they'll make excuses to fever their original opinions.


Fever=defend
Anybody still upset about Jones being picked at #6,  
MOOPS : 6/9/2019 2:50 pm : link
get over it. He wasn't going to be there at 17.
So far there's not one thing to dislike about Jones. Every surprise has been positive.
Way ahead of where most rookie QBs are mentally and physically he's shows a better than average arm, outstanding athletic ability, developing leadership skills and grasp of the playbook.

Really, what's not to like?
I'm on the Jones train.

Both Beckham and Barkley pulled hammies to start camp  
since1925 : 6/9/2019 2:54 pm : link
They showed nothing. Beckham didn't even get on the field until the forth game of the season.

It meant nothing.
RE: I still  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 3:05 pm : link
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."


It's skepticism based on how badly the team has drafted for YEARS under Reese and Ross, and Reese's own failed pronouncements about players:

R Randle was "NFL ready"
A Robinson was "the JPP of TEs"
J Hosley played "bigger than his size"

Even when guys were good, how short their careers were: Smith, Nicks, Cruz, Boss, Alford, Beatty...

last year looked like the tide turned with Barkley, Hernandez, Hill and Carter - but let's face it the jury is still out on Hill and Carter. They showed promise, yes, but let's wait till year 2 to see if the giants finally hit on a player after round 1 or 2.

It's tough to be optimistic in the face of recent history.

The point isn't that he is performing well at camp. Lots of guys  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 3:11 pm : link
do that never pan out. The point is he isn't getting his lunch money stolen. That is usually a bad sign.
RE: I still  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 3:13 pm : link
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."


I'm happy for all of those things, but I put "his arm," "his accuracy," and "his decision making" in the context of "it's OTA's." He's playing pitch and catch with no pads and no hitting...no pressure coming from the likes of Fletcher Cox or Demarcus Lawrence. I'd be shocked if he didn't look good.

I'd also be shocked if he didn't handle the media well. I'm sure his demeanor was a major factor in the Giants' decision to draft him, and I don't have a problem with how high they did. If they felt that he was worth the #6 pick, who am I to disagree? As with all of their draft picks, I hope they all pan out and justify the team's faith in them.

Jones is doing pretty much what I expected him to do at this point in time (the key phrase being "at this point in time"). But for me it's still very early in the process, and it's not that I don't appreciate him - I just want to see more from him. A lot more.
Eric you are correct and I agree  
Dave on the UWS : 6/9/2019 3:16 pm : link
When Eli came out he was supposed to be the “most NFL ready QB to come along since” Peyton maybe? Anyway, he looked like crap right through training camp, had one game on the regular season (I think against the Ravens where he had a 0.0 QB rating.
If Jones is showing arm strength, accuracy AND evidence things are slowing down for him (as the coach said), then he is WAY ahead of where Eli was at the same point. It would be great if they can go with just 2 QBs this year. They will need the roster spot (for one of the CBs or OL prospects).
RE: RE: Very Glad  
Glover : 6/9/2019 3:20 pm : link
In comment 14467401 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14467380 Glover said:


Quote:


I'm going to have to disagree with your take on Tiki. He really need a few years in an NFL weight room and he started to produce before we drafted Ron Dayne. We drafted a RB because they probably never thought Tiki was going to be a 3 down RB workhorse, a fumbling playmaker that had some injury issues, but he kept adding muscle every year.


Dayne was drafted in 2000, coincidentally, Tiki's first 1000+ yard rushing season, his previous high was his rookie year, with 511 yards. He was a bigger factor as a receiver starting in 99, but his ascension to all pro status started in 2000.
RE: You are 100% correct  
Big Rick in FL : 6/9/2019 3:21 pm : link
In comment 14467368 BSIMatt said:
Quote:
If he were performing disastrously the Twitter sphere and giant fandom would likely have no issue citing it over and over as further proof as to what a horrible selection it was. He plays extremely well and it is immediately minimized as performing in “just shorts”. There was an article written the other day from a writer who observed Jones for 3 days in minicamp and had recent time observing Lamar Jackson and Carson Wentz and said Jones looked better than either at their respective stages of development...and this was from a national writer, not some giants homer.


Then take these statements from Giants best writers:



Quote:



Art Stapleton Verified account
@art_stapleton
19h19 hours ago

He's the best rookie QB that I've covered on the beat already. I've been impressed by his willingness to push the ball downfield in a practice setting.
I think he might be more focused on accuracy and honing that on out routes vs air. Doesn't put a lot of velocity on those yet

Art Stapleton Verified account
@art_stapleton
19h19 hours ago

Daniel Jones' arm strength is certainly not lacking, and this week we got a chance to see just how accurate he is downfield. If minicamp is any indication, he's really, really good.


Patricia Traina:

"(Daniel Jones) has clearly had the most impressive spring of the Giants drafted quarterbacks in the last decade."


I saw an article from Bleacher Report and the writer said he got to see Wentz & Lamar Jackson as Rookies. He said Jones has been much better than both through this point of their career. If he turns out anywhere near Wentz (Minus the injuries) the Giants are in very very good shape.
It’s not about being “under appreciated”  
WillVAB : 6/9/2019 3:24 pm : link
The circumstances simply don’t warrant excitement at this stage in the process.

When teams draft QBs high in the draft there’s usually some bum placeholder for a week or three before the rookie is given the job. Or the rookie is given the job before week 1. In that case, you want to hear positive news early and often because the expectation is to get the rookie in there ASAP.

The Giants aren’t in that position, or at least don’t feel they are. You can agree or disagree but the Giants feel like they can win with Eli.

So basically that locks in Jones timeline to starting as soon as the Giants are out of playoff contention at the earliest and after the season at the latest.

The sense of urgency simply isn’t there under the circumstances so there’s no need to overreact positively or negatively to anything happening right now.
RE: I still  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 3:25 pm : link
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."


Don't get why it does when we can see even with Eli Apple that everything is wonderful before the games start. Why is this different than what was said per the link I provided previously regarding the hype from Eli Apple? What makes this different? What makes us think this isn't another "Eli Apple building block hype" at corner vs why is Jones the "very good building block" now?

And I don't get the hostility from some (not you. I would think the mods love alternate views) - for those of us that are hopeful with Jones but believe more with what David Te said and believe as SY mentioned, Jones should have been passed on. Are we're just going to completely dismiss their opinion prior to even a preseason game being played?

Please don;t get my post wrong. I know you don't have a problem with other points of view but I think others on here just don't want to hear alternate views. ere is what SY said -- debunk it -- anyone. If you can't-- how can anyone criticize that alternate pov?

https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2019/04/24/new-york-giants-2019-nfl-draft-preview-quarterbacks/

"But there isn’t a quick mind here, he doesn’t see everything a top tier QB does whether it is coverage or pass rush based. After a long time scouting him, he is a pass for me."

We're supposed to disregard this because of summer league hype?
Klaatu  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 3:25 pm : link
The NFL graveyard is littered with 1st round QBs who didn't do those things - including early in the spring. And we're talking guys who were much more highly regarded than Jones.

On top of that, Jones was said to lack a "strong" arm. That certainly has not been the case.

Jones is performing better now than the pundits said he would.
Eric. I was among those dumb-struck by the selection of Jones  
Marty in Albany : 6/9/2019 3:43 pm : link
Although a proper evaluation of may not be possible for months or even longer, Jones' performance so far at the OTAs at least gives Giants fans a much better understanding of what the Giants saw in Jones when they drafted him. Right or wrong, his selection was not as insane as it first appeared.

RE: RE: Sixth Pick Has To Be Top Ten in League In Time  
Big Rick in FL : 6/9/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14467457 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14467422 Breaker said:


Quote:


In comment 14467414 giantstock said:


Quote:


Whether it be 2019 or 2020 or 2021 etc.

I don't care about any early hype. Why should I?

Let-s face it-- tow of the experts on this board (SY and David Te) weren't impressed with Jones. The guy I most value is Greg Cosell and he had rated Jones 4th and didn't believe any of the 4 QB's described a top 6 pick.

And many on here respect Gil Brandt a ton - so this year he had Allen, Oliver (Who I liked as the the 6th pick) and Sweat all rated ahead of Jones as the 6th pick. He had Jones 17 and yet last year he had Rosen 2nd overall.

I'm supposed to throw all this away because of summer hype? Why bother even having SY or David TE then - especially if others whom you value also feel in some manner what you feel?

And how often have we heard of hype only to get a major letdown? What's the last line in the below article?

"Eli Apple is going to be a stud."

https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2016/08/07/new-york-giants-eli-apple-glimpse-into-future/

***There is nothing wrong with being skeptical but hopeful. I'm hopeful. I just never have liked "rah rah cheerleading" and I'm not saying this thread is that. NOT AT ALL. You see something you love in him. GREAT!!! Just saying for me I want to see wins. Hey if Jones turns out to be the 28th rated QB and yet the GMEN still win multiple SB's with him because he plays solid in the playoffs -- I'll be thrilled with Jones because winning is all that matters.







Noooo-- it doesn't. Who gives a shit as long as we win Super Bowls?

What;s more important winning? Or where you were picked?

This also goes for those that are so freaking emotional for those of us who think the Jones pick was a bad move. They seem to think we need to either"apologize" or "admit" to "being wrong." That's a crock of shit.

Winning is what matters. Getting your panties twisted over predictions made and what the media said prior while in the moment your team is winning is just so idiotic. IMO you should be more interested in what the team needs to do to be better for that next year rather than worry about what a poster r media person said two years ago etc.

I'm the 1st to admit I hate DG. And imo he has made awful moves that someone more competent I feel could have done better. I despise his way, his arrogance and his lying etc. But if he wins-- my hate will turn - and I'll call him "colorful." A "colorful winner." Would it matter years prior I hated the guy as I watch our team win Super Bowl(s)? Not one bit. Winning is all that matters.


You hate him? Why? His lying? Should he go out and do press conferences telling other teams what we are planning on doing? What a dumb fucking thing to say.

What awful moves has he really mad? The Omameh & Stewart signing? They were bad. They weren't awful. Very little impact on the team's cap space.

The Giants are in a much better position then they were in December 2017. He's only been around for 2 drafts and we have a lot of young talent. Jones, Saquon, Shepard, Slayton, Coleman, Engram, Hernandez, Halapio, Hill, Tomlinson, Lawrence, Baker, McIntosh, Carter, Oshane, Love, Ballantine, Peppers & Rosas.

They have 65 million in cap space with 54 players under contract for 2020. If they move on from just Jackrabbit, Ellison, Martin & Tanney they are at 85 million in cap space. That money along with another strong draft should put the Giants in position to be contenders for a long time.
This thread is funny  
UConn4523 : 6/9/2019 3:46 pm : link
and it makes me hate being a Giants fan
Jones will get evaluated over time.  
TMS : 6/9/2019 3:48 pm : link
But it is not unlimited. DG knows he has a short time to turn this team around in this town, and league. Good finish last year, but he will feel the heat if we start to lose early this season. Others have done it, now he has to deliver or it could get ugly fast. Hope not.
Eric, do you know what the Pundit Graveyard is littered with?  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 3:58 pm : link
It's a trick question. There is no Pundit Graveyard, because those guys never have to pay a price for being wrong, and they're wrong all the time. They're very susceptible to "groupthink," even though they all come with their own biases and preconceived notions.

I don't care what the pundits think (or thought) about Jones or any other player. I'd rather put my faith in the guy whose job is on the line, and that certainly isn't any pundit. Until that faith is shown unquestionably to be misplaced, I'll go with the guy(s) making the picks, not their critics.

The Giants drafted Jones in the 1st Round, #6 overall. That's good enough for me...for now. I still want to see the kid perform when his job is on the line. I don't think that's too much to ask for. I'll concede that he's off to a good start, but this race is a marathon, not a sprint.
RE: Eric. I was among those dumb-struck by the selection of Jones  
81_Great_Dane : 6/9/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14467562 Marty in Albany said:
Quote:
Although a proper evaluation of may not be possible for months or even longer, Jones' performance so far at the OTAs at least gives Giants fans a much better understanding of what the Giants saw in Jones when they drafted him. Right or wrong, his selection was not as insane as it first appeared.
This is pretty much where I am.

As for the 'he wouldn't have been there at 17" argument. What happened, happened. He was picked where he was picked. It's done. We'll never know the alternative timelines unless Tony Stark takes us all through the Quantum Realm.
These guys  
TommyWiseau : 6/9/2019 4:23 pm : link
Are in shorts and a tshirt. Show me how he is when the pads and a 270 pound pass rusher is in his face. Jonas Seawright lit up mini camp and we all know how that turned out. PS I am a Daniel Jones supporter but lets see how he does in game action
RE: It's moronic because most your assumptions aren't based on truths.  
bw in dc : 6/9/2019 4:40 pm : link
In comment 14467473 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
Let's examine them one by one:

1) Giants won't win an SB with Eli at QB in 2019 - OK 1st assumption is good.
2) Starting experience a QB's rookie year is crucial - Um NO.
Of the top 4 QBs in the NFL today, arguably: (Mahomes, Brady, Brees and Rogers) NOT ONE OF THEM STARTED AS A ROOKIE. IE, you simply made your assumption up out of thin air, it's unfounded. And you can dig through NFL history to corroborate that if you like. Not to mention examples of QBs who started as rookies who were likely damaged by the experience, like David Carr.
3) Eli is decrepit. Well, this is belied by the fact he had one of his best statistical years ever last year, in his 1st year under PS. IMO he's likely to improve on that year 2 especially if the OL performs better. So wrong again.
4) The Giants are "wasting" DJ8's salary cap year. Well, if the team isn't going to the superbowl regardless of whether Eli or DJ is at QB, how does the salary cap savings (that theoretically allows the Giants to purchase a better FA or two) really matter? Not much, bad assumption #4.
5) Eli is the designated starter based on some payback for "services rendered." Really? I doubt PS sees it that way at all. He's the designated starter because at this point they think Eli will outperform DJ8. Bad assumption #4 out of 5.

Whatever, if your assumptions are correct, it's not a moronic position. Show me (Lord knows I'm not asking for proof) how your assumptions are valid.


Is experience a good or bad thing? If it's good, which I presume you know is yes, so why not get it as soon as possible? Forget what the conditions were, has starting from day one worked out for guys like Dak, Peyton, Matt Ryan, Flacco, Wentz, etc? A simple yes or no works for me.

Eli may indeed have a good year. So what? Do you think he still has the good to help us win the biggest prize? What % of NFL players get better at 38 and beyond? I'm just looking at the NFL actuarial tables...

Again, by starting Jones right away you get (1) the vital experience piece and (2) accelerate whether he is going to be a boom or a bust. If (2) is the boom, you get more production sooner at cheaper costs. Pretty basic economics here...

If you don't think Eli isn't getting some preferential treatment somewhere in this organization - very likely Mara - you are more naive than I thought.

It's a new NFL. The game is structured to allow QBs to play sooner because they are more protected and the game is just easier for QBs to play. And the plus side for us is we have a RB like Barkley who should be take at least 400 touches. So why can't Jones hand it off to him 300+ X and dump it off 100+X as well as Eli? When did the hand off get so challenging?
It's really very simple bw...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 4:51 pm : link
...if the defense comes together, Eli gives the Giants the best chance to get to the Superbowl.

Glad I coukd help.
RE: It's really very simple bw...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 4:59 pm : link
In comment 14467614 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...if the defense comes together, Eli gives the Giants the best chance to get to the Superbowl.

Glad I coukd help.


yeah, super helpful...
The hype has reached ridiculous levels  
Ned In Atlanta : 6/9/2019 5:02 pm : link
I’ll wait until bullets start flying to start doing cartwheels
RE: The hype has reached ridiculous levels  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 5:10 pm : link
In comment 14467632 Ned In Atlanta said:
Quote:
I’ll wait until bullets start flying to start doing cartwheels


What hype? It's been the opposite of hype. That's my point.

I'm a bit at a loss here.
Well it's been fun arguing with you...  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 5:15 pm : link
"The game is structured to allow QBs to play sooner because they are more protected and the game is just easier for QBs to play."

Actually, the new rules re QB protection have been far more beneficial to older, immobile QBs (Brady, Brees) than to rookies... and the mental part of the game - multiple and complex scheme defenses, sub-package defenses specialized player personnel on both offense and defense - have made the game more difficult than ever for rookies. Your points for the most part are blatantly false.

There's no longer a point to our discussion. Say and believe whatever you like, it's just a fan discussion board.
RE: RE: It's really very simple bw...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14467628 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14467614 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...if the defense comes together, Eli gives the Giants the best chance to get to the Superbowl.

Glad I coukd help.



yeah, super helpful...

You're welcome - ( New Window )
Blue Lou...  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 5:19 pm : link
You got bw to make a post without using the phrase, "Jints Central." Talk about progress!!!
RE: Blue Lou...  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 5:23 pm : link
In comment 14467655 Klaatu said:
Quote:
You got bw to make a post without using the phrase, "Jints Central." Talk about progress!!!


Lulz...
I don't know Klaatu  
gidiefor : Mod : 6/9/2019 5:29 pm : link
your credibility has taken a big hit with this spaghetti sauce thing
Well he’s the 6th pick in the 2019 draft  
ij_reilly : 6/9/2019 5:31 pm : link
He’s supposed to be performing well.

He’s supposed to be pretty much NFL ready.

It’s been 15 years since Eli was drafted.

A QB picked at number 6 today better be ready to start game 1 if Year 2. If not game 1 of year 1.

Big Rick In Fl  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 5:32 pm : link
In regards to his lying – you don’t know if it’s a lie or he’s telling the truth. YOU think he is being Machiavellian I think he’s an idiot that is more-than-likely past his prime. In other words, I think his lying is in part because he isn’t sure what he wants to do. So he scares me shitless because I think he is incompetent. We can agree to disagree but it’s not like I’m calling Bill Bellchick incompetent. I think the current Giant GM is and unfortunately I think it will show each year progressing forward.

What bad moves has he made? His getting Solder was a blunder when he could’ve gotten TWO football players – YOUNG football players for example in Hubbard and Fulton for the price of one again LT by the time the G-men are good he’ll begin to fade.

The money we are spending for Ogletree. Did you see his contract? What type of idiot in a rebuild is going to spend that much on Ogletree? Did you know the ILB Hicks that was on Philly is BOTH YOUNGER (though just 1 year) and BETTER.

Should’ve traded Collins in their rebuild year from last year. Could’ve gotten more.

These are just a few of the moves.

While you “say” they are in a “much better situation than 2017” – I don’t give a shit about your homerism. IMO the bigger question is are they on the right path to being a SB contender? Anyone who says “yes” isn’t basing it on fact – they are basing it on nothing but “hope.” wFAN spoke about that yesterday the difference between Mets fans and Yank fans is that the Yanks know they got someone while Mets fans are about hope. We have no idea what Jones will be. And right now name one all-pro defensive player.

The sad thing is fans like you have been beaten down to accept mediocrity. The team sucked last year. They sucked the year before and we’re projected to win 5-6 games this upcoming year. Nobody knows if Jones is any good and it one big fucking guess on defense. Please stop with the homerism and get a check of reality. We need to see that we are going to be contenders. Being better from Dec 2017 means shit. Being a better team than Dallas and Philly and Wash should mean more to you than cheerleading for better than the disgraceful 2017 season.

You want to cheer they have $65m in cap space. Great. I think another GM could have had more OR could’ve signed better players while picking up better Free Agents than “Mr. Super WR Jordan Tate.” Glad that your homerism is alive and well.
Exciting times  
PaulN : 6/9/2019 5:37 pm : link
Are coming for us true fans. The Giants have sucked of late, but now we get to see a great running back in his second year, behind an improved offensive line, and we are going to get to see the Giants future QB, pre season is going to be exciting this year even. Imagine if the Giants hit it right with Jones and now we have Barkley also. Another player that sounds like he is turning heads is Darius Slayton, with his speed he is also a vital piece to the team, they need 1 legit deep threat. I think Coleman and Latimer can be a part of the receiving corps, and contribute, and they also have speed, but this kid could be a real difference maker.
“Accept mediocrity”  
UConn4523 : 6/9/2019 5:37 pm : link
What does that even mean? Getting mad at a team means you don’t accept it and being optimistic means you do?

Embarrassing.
RE: I don't know Klaatu  
Klaatu : 6/9/2019 5:38 pm : link
In comment 14467659 gidiefor said:
Quote:
your credibility has taken a big hit with this spaghetti sauce thing


At least I had credibility.

Your brains is all in your wallet and your trigger finger. You take away the good-goods, and the shakedown cabbage, and them pistoleros and you're nothin'!
RE: The media and fans  
joeinpa : 6/9/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14467345 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
can be similar in that they are difficult to budge once dug in.

They are also alike in that they form these hard, aggressive, unbreakable opinions based on very little actual information.

Then to compound the issue they feed off of each other.


I love this, so true.

I also loved the Jones pick at 6
Think some have said something similar, but how about this:  
ChaChing : 6/9/2019 5:42 pm : link
It's great he's showing well in every opportunity he's been given so far. Certainly much better than swimming in it, being inaccurate, not making basic plays, or even being injured. Best we could hope to this point. And it would be nice to see him tear up preseason games...

But it still doesn't matter unless it translates to live games

I bet a coaching perspective would sum it up best: encouraged he's showing well so far but there's a ways to go. Just focus on getting better the next play / practice / game. I would say the most encouraging thing is what we expected - DJ already seems to have that type of pro mentality, especially important in NYC

Otherwise this is just a cyclic argument between half full & half empty
RE: Big Rick In Fl  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14467661 giantstock said:
Quote:
I think the current Giant GM is [incompetent] and unfortunately I think it will show each year progressing forward.

What bad moves has he made? His getting Solder was a blunder when he could’ve gotten TWO football players – YOUNG football players for example in Hubbard and Fulton for the price of one again LT by the time the G-men are good he’ll begin to fade.

The money we are spending for Ogletree. Did you see his contract? What type of idiot in a rebuild is going to spend that much on Ogletree? Did you know the ILB Hicks that was on Philly is BOTH YOUNGER (though just 1 year) and BETTER.

Should’ve traded Collins in their rebuild year from last year. Could’ve gotten more.

We have no idea what Jones will be. Nobody knows if Jones is any good and it one big fucking guess on defense. Please stop with the homerism and get a check of reality.
You want to cheer they have $65m in cap space. Great. I think another GM could have had more OR could’ve signed better players while picking up better Free Agents than “Mr. Super WR Jordan[sic] Tate.” Glad that your homerism is alive and well.


Giantstock - I agree we don't really know shit about Jones yet, nor the state of the defense with it's almost totally revamped secondary and largely new DL (rookie, 2nd year, 3rd year players.)

Which means the optimism is founded largely on hope...

But also means your pessimism is almost equally unfounded. By your own admission, we have zero clue how Baker, Beal, Peppers, Ballentine, Love and Haley are gonna mesh with each other and Bethea. No idea about the impact of big DL, or how DL, DT, and BJ Hill will mesh and interact.

So lighten up maybe and let's see how this plays out?


I plead guilty  
idiotsavant : 6/9/2019 5:52 pm : link
To having gone completely nuts for a DL of Ed Oliver, Dexter Lawrence and b.j. Hill. And not even having done any research at all. Hehehe. Bad fan! Slap myself!

That said, if the new QB turns out even halfway decent or better starting nfl level QB, The Getts will be looking fairly great...to genius!

Great news? We don't have to look at ...or even discuss QBs news draft.

Let's go linebackers and tight ends! Wooohoooo! And centers and tackles! Waaaahooo!
.

Now it 'getts' fun!
Typo  
idiotsavant : 6/9/2019 5:54 pm : link
Not news draft. No need discuss QBs NEXT draft! Yay!
RE: RE: RE: It's really very simple bw...  
Jimmy Googs : 6/9/2019 6:09 pm : link
In comment 14467653 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 14467628 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


In comment 14467614 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...if the defense comes together, Eli gives the Giants the best chance to get to the Superbowl.

Glad I coukd help.



yeah, super helpful...

You're welcome - ( New Window )


Well put. It would be historical alright...
...  
christian : 6/9/2019 6:12 pm : link
Many analysts and rumblings from anonymous teams indicated Jones had a big hole, arm strength.

It's the reason supposedly he wasn't ranked as a consensus top-10 pick. I'm sure it's good for the staff to know with more observation that's not true.

Sometimes I think us fans forget how little 1-on-1 time teams get with draft picks. They don't have the luxury to run them through real practices, against pro competition, with their plays.

Now it seems that's been settled, the media and fans can chill and dial down the noise on whether it was a tragedy of a pick, and see the whole rest of myriad things he needs to prove.
Talk about jumping the gun  
Torrag : 6/9/2019 6:25 pm : link
A handful of practices and DJ is 'performing very well'??? Just stp already. There is no need to even have an opinion of him at this point. The amount of data available to comment on is miniscule. Let camp get here and some real work start to unfold. maybe even see the guy in a couple of pre season games??? PLEASE!
BlueLousback  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 6:32 pm : link
BleuLou--

I know what you're saying about my post. And I just want to say I am so hopeful Jones turns out to be great. There's posts out here in which people seem to really think some of us who either don;t like DG or some of his picks etc want GMEN to lose. I can't believe anyone would want that. I want Jones to be super great. I can't tell you how awesome that would be. When we all watch football - who thinks of what they've said on BBI vs what we want our team to do.

Anyways please look at BigRick's reply to me. The dude was pretty rough going at me with his sarcasm. He wasn't very "light" with me. IMO it wasn't called for. So I replied back the same way. I just want to add I am lightened up. I think that 2020 is the season and we'll get a great chance to see who Jones is. If he is awesome then we're going to be set for a long time. Nothing will be better than that.
Have we not seen our share of training camp superstars?  
UberAlias : 6/9/2019 6:32 pm : link
And we’re not even into actual camp yet. And yes, there are some positive reviews but not exactly raving. We’re talking about the #6 overall pick. The guy needs to be a franchise QB. I’m sorry, but we’re a long way from those sort of answers.
RE: “Accept mediocrity”  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14467664 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
What does that even mean? Getting mad at a team means you don’t accept it and being optimistic means you do?

Embarrassing.


Yes, embarrassing some fans accept mediocrity. I don;t have the time to dumb it down for you further.
RE: BlueLousback  
BlueLou'sBack : 6/9/2019 6:53 pm : link
In comment 14467693 giantstock said:
Quote:
BleuLou--

I know what you're saying about my post. And I just want to say I am so hopeful Jones turns out to be great. There's posts out here in which people seem to really think some of us who either don;t like DG or some of his picks etc want GMEN to lose. I can't believe anyone would want that. I want Jones to be super great. I can't tell you how awesome that would be. When we all watch football - who thinks of what they've said on BBI vs what we want our team to do.

Anyways please look at BigRick's reply to me. The dude was pretty rough going at me with his sarcasm. He wasn't very "light" with me. IMO it wasn't called for. So I replied back the same way. I just want to add I am lightened up. I think that 2020 is the season and we'll get a great chance to see who Jones is. If he is awesome then we're going to be set for a long time. Nothing will be better than that.


Happy to read this GS, truly. Life is too short to go crazy over mistakes our team makes. If I could share with you what real disappointment is I would but it's not for publication. And you're setting a realistic goal in 2020. I do think, now, that DG "has a plan" and his plan is finding and filling in the types of players - or specific players, not "types" that his coaches want for their specific schemes.

I think there's a shot this team's defense has really turned the corner in terms of personnel fitting the scheme and cost of said personnel, this year. But with so many rookies and youngsters, well it'll be great if we can see that in the 2nd half or 2019. The OL is still a huge concern and paper thin for depth.

In the meantime, let's enjoy the ride. I take more from the quality of play than the straight W-L record. I think we'll be seeing better play this year, which isn't saying much given how poorly the team has played overall since our last SB title.

I spoke too much, again, glad to read your response.
RE: Well it's been fun arguing with you...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2019 7:24 pm : link
In comment 14467651 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
"The game is structured to allow QBs to play sooner because they are more protected and the game is just easier for QBs to play."

Actually, the new rules re QB protection have been far more beneficial to older, immobile QBs (Brady, Brees) than to rookies... and the mental part of the game - multiple and complex scheme defenses, sub-package defenses specialized player personnel on both offense and defense - have made the game more difficult than ever for rookies. Your points for the most part are blatantly false.

There's no longer a point to our discussion. Say and believe whatever you like, it's just a fan discussion board.



I provided you a list of quality QBs recently who have stepped in from day one and were able to parlay experience into quicker success. Proving that it can work. I can produce more examples.

If playing QB isn't easier than ever than why is scoring at an all-time high, completion %s higher than ever, QB ratings are higher than ever, more passing TDs than ever, more catches than ever, more third down conversion than ever, etc? Let me guess...coincidence?

Indeed, blatantly false...
I’m just not sure how much appreciation  
UberAlias : 6/9/2019 7:27 pm : link
We’re supposed to show in response mini camp. Some positive reports for our #6 pick. I should hope so. It’s not like anyone’s screaming this is the next Mahomes.
I think...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 7:27 pm : link
...that you're confusing "accepting mediocrity" with "enjoying the offseason."
Very Encouraged  
Lines of Scrimmage : 6/9/2019 7:40 pm : link
Blue Lou....I think it is actually easier for rookie QB's now. The college game in the last ten years is much more advanced. Many of the pro concepts on defense are definitely present so the college QB's are much more proficient with protections, reads, route concepts etc. Not all but many. The big thing though is how much colleges pass now. The majority of QB's pre-2000 were in very run heavy offenses. Two powerhouses of the 80's were option teams (Nebraska, Oklahoma) who were like 90% run and many more top teams as well. I believe this is why we see the young QB's hitting the NFL with more success early.

Jones seems to be off to a great start. One thing we are not going to know until it happens is can he handle the big moment? As much crap Eli took in his career he certainly answered the bell. Hopefully Jones will be of similar make-up. This is imo the most important quality and one that you really won't know until it happens.


So far so good  
TD : 6/9/2019 8:24 pm : link
It would be great if DG hit this pick out of the park.
I was iffy on Daniel Jones just because I wasnt sure if he had the  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/9/2019 8:37 pm : link
ability to throw to the sidelines in the NFL. For whatever reason on TV it seems slower to get there. Apparently in person this isn't an issue all. Pete Prisco alluded to this and why he blew teams away at the private workouts. If he couldn't throw to sideline you would be hearing about picks left and right during these reports. This isn't a contact issue and something you can evaluate in 7 on 7s. Consider me emphatically happy right now. I personally think he's the goods from all the other stuff I saw from him at Duke.
RE: I think...  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 8:37 pm : link
In comment 14467709 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...that you're confusing "accepting mediocrity" with "enjoying the offseason."


No. You aren't considering who and when I made the comment to. It had nothing to do with the off-season of which Eric is speaking.

It had to do with the comment that "we are better now than in 2017 . . ."

SO my point wasn't to argue with the context of THIS offseason. It's to argue that just because we are "better" than that crap of 2017 season that we should somehow "rejoice" that everything is "fine." How often do you think Buffalo, Miami and the Jets felt the same way as their seasons improved?

**It's great if you are excited about this offseason and you love Jones etc. Great. But imo if you're happy just because we are better than 2017 - that's just nonsense. Many teams can look at 1 or 2 years they get a bit better then slip right back into that sinkhole.

You can't go and take my 2nd post to Big Rick and apply it to those who are excited about this offseason. But you can apply it to those who think one year or two year improvement means you're on the AUTOMATIC road to contention. If Jones isn't the real deal and we don't establish a couple of dominant defenders, where are we going?
I think it's instructive that Giants receivers are complimentary  
GeofromNJ : 6/9/2019 9:00 pm : link
toward Jones. I don't think they're being coached to say positive things about his talent and the way he's progressing, and I don't recall Giants receivers being complimentary regarding Eli's first OTA's and certainly not complimentary regarding any of the qb's drafted by the Giants since Eli and before Jones. Jones may never be all-pro or elite, but to date he's not demonstrated that he doesn't belong.
Eric, not everyone thought the pick was a bad one.  
Giant John : 6/9/2019 9:07 pm : link
In fact I think a lot have warmed up to the pick. Personally I liked him a lot. I’ve argued with a number of posters who questioned his arm strength. I never had those doubts after watching him. In any event the news we have heard is good. As of now that’s all we have to judge on until the games come around. I’m optimistic and I like the odds that we have a new QB that’s going to to some really good things.
I hope he knows how to slide and can avoid that serious injury. We can’t expect him to be as durable as Eli.
I’m pulling for the kid.
The big knock on Jones is his decision making under pressure  
Vanzetti : 6/9/2019 9:27 pm : link
I saw bits and pieces of about four Duke games. I was watching Jones because some people I respect on BBI were talking him up.

And they were right that he has the look of an NFL QB. ButI also saw him start watching the rush instead of looking downfield a la David Carr. I saw three yard completions on third and eight. I saw him EXPECTING to get hit and conjuring a pass rush in his mind even when there was not one. I did see receiver drop passes but I also saw him miss guys who were wide open and I saw him lock onto receivers and not see the field very well

So, while I'm glad he has been doing well, I don't put much stock in it until we see him face a pass rush

Here’s the bottom line here  
djm : 6/9/2019 9:30 pm : link
If jones were stinking up the joint many of the same posters saying “big deal it’s only mini camp” would instead be going fucking ape shit. Small victories.
RE: RE: I think...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 9:55 pm : link
In comment 14467740 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14467709 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...that you're confusing "accepting mediocrity" with "enjoying the offseason."



No. You aren't considering who and when I made the comment to. It had nothing to do with the off-season of which Eric is speaking.

It had to do with the comment that "we are better now than in 2017 . . ."

SO my point wasn't to argue with the context of THIS offseason. It's to argue that just because we are "better" than that crap of 2017 season that we should somehow "rejoice" that everything is "fine." How often do you think Buffalo, Miami and the Jets felt the same way as their seasons improved?

**It's great if you are excited about this offseason and you love Jones etc. Great. But imo if you're happy just because we are better than 2017 - that's just nonsense. Many teams can look at 1 or 2 years they get a bit better then slip right back into that sinkhole.

You can't go and take my 2nd post to Big Rick and apply it to those who are excited about this offseason. But you can apply it to those who think one year or two year improvement means you're on the AUTOMATIC road to contention. If Jones isn't the real deal and we don't establish a couple of dominant defenders, where are we going?

You're missing the point.
I'm enjoying the offseason, you're not.
What's happened in Miami or Buffalo is irrelevant.

Cautious optimism is holding back happiness.
Deciding that the team didn't become an all time great in the offseason so they suck is kinda sad.

Enjoying your favorite team is a win.

Be happy.
Again...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/9/2019 10:31 pm : link
this is not a "he's going to be great" vs. "he was over-drafted" argument.

The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.

The alternative would certainly be drawing the ire of fans and media everywhere.
RE: RE: RE: I think...  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 10:57 pm : link
In comment 14467765 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 14467740 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14467709 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:





You're missing the point.
I'm enjoying the offseason, you're not.
What's happened in Miami or Buffalo is irrelevant.

Cautious optimism is holding back happiness.
Deciding that the team didn't become an all time great in the offseason so they suck is kinda sad.

Enjoying your favorite team is a win.

Be happy.


No. You are missing the point of my comment that was directed at big rick regarding 2017. ---

It had nothing to do with this offseason. SO you can't take my comment specifically addressing 2017 season and apply it to this off-season. I am very happy that you and others think we are going in the right direction. I respect that. I just think sometimes others don't want to respect a counter argument. Fro example it is not lock that Daniel Jones is going to be good. It's not a lock that this year's draft class is awesome. We're projected to be a 5-6 win team for a reason.

Anyhow-- This off-season is a completely different point than what you 1st quoted to me in your reply. The point you 1st sent to mm about the 2017 season record has no bearing on this offseason.

I don't enjoy summer or preseason you're right. Ever since the Norm Snead days when GMEN defeated both Miami and Pittsburgh in preseason.

We can be different. Some are cup is half-full and some are cup is half-empty. When the team is winning I am cup is half-full. Not looking to place blame. When the team sucks I'm half-empty. I hate being a complainer when they are doing well enough and i hate being a cheerleader when they suck. That's how I enjoy. Thus i enjoy being cautious but hopeful. I ammmmm HOPEFUL. OFC Daniel Jones could wind up being super.

I am just a bit surprised that this team has been bad for so long and other than Barkley GMEn don't have any other stars - how there can be so much optimism yet there is NOTHING that is really, really, really good that you can point to in terms of positions other than the RB.
RE: Again...  
bw in dc : 6/9/2019 10:57 pm : link
In comment 14467776 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:


The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.


By whom? I've seen Giants/Eli-Jones talk rather frequently on daily ESPN NFL Live and NFLN since the draft. So that's the national media front.

It's encouraging - yes. But as many have mentioned, it's a controlled environment. The real test - obviously - is under live fire. Which is why I think it's best for everyone for Jones to start ASAP.

With Barkley as the running back, he could be Jones's best friend for Jones to ease into the role. Tons of hand-offs and check-downs, and designed plays by Shurmur to leverage Jones's athleticism. Part of the playbook ignored with Eli's limited skills.
RE: RE: RE: I think...  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 11:18 pm : link
In comment 14467765 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
In comment 14467740 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14467709 Brown_Hornet said:
Cautious optimism is holding back happiness.
Deciding that the team didn't become an all time great in the offseason so they suck is kinda sad.

Enjoying your favorite team is a win.

Be happy.


The other point -- I made on this thread--

"We need to see that we are going to be contenders."

That's not the same as you posted above.

So my post to Big Rick was specifically addressing the 2017 season not this season yet you are trying to tie my comment into this season. Buffalo, Miami and NY Jets were NOT irrelevant as a counter to the point made by Big Rick that "we have improved since 2017."

And secondly you are trying to tie in my comment of winning and super bowls to ---- "Deciding that the team didn't become an all time great." No offense but I never said this.

I said the below. If you interpreted my comments another way - no problem. It's not what I meant. Below is what I'd like to see at least. Winning ofc cures all. This year we aren't going to. But what "locks" do we have in terms of positions that we know are outstanding right now? RB at that's it. If Jones shows during season of 2019 he's going to be good then we have something. If the dlINe is strong then we have something. If Haps or Remmers helps along with the other 3 being solid at the OL then we have something. The secondary has to show something first before we know it's "fixed" right?

"We need to see that we are going to be contenders."
I'm with giantstock, blouLou and Kaatu in this  
.McL. : 6/9/2019 11:22 pm : link
It is encouraging that he hasn't looked like crap yet. But in the big scheme, it means little.

Eli looked terrible at first, especially his first minicamp and OTAs, but then he came on from his 2nd year and eventually won us 2 Superbowls.

It's just too early to tell yet.

I was also one not keen on this pick. But as GS is saying, I am hoping like hell that he turns out great.

But my enthusiasm is tempered, until I see him in real action.
We can agree...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/9/2019 11:25 pm : link
...to disagree.

Im enjoying the positivity and the excitement that it brings.

RE: We can agree...  
giantstock : 6/9/2019 11:47 pm : link
In comment 14467803 Brown_Hornet said:
Quote:
...to disagree.

Im enjoying the positivity and the excitement that it brings.


Great for you. And I hope to be aboard this season.
RE: RE: We can agree...  
.McL. : 6/9/2019 11:54 pm : link
In comment 14467812 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14467803 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...to disagree.

Im enjoying the positivity and the excitement that it brings.




Great for you. And I hope to be aboard this season.

If I may add my $.02...
I think I have been around too long seen too much to be overly enthused or dejected this time of year.
I've seen the Giants go undefeated in the preseason looking like a juggernaut, only to end up 10 games under .500.
I have seen them look like absolute crap in the preseason, and in 2007 the 1st two games of the year, and come back and win the SB...
I'll just take it all in stride until the real bullets start flying. From what I am reading GS is reacting the same way.
You’re right Eric  
Platos : 6/9/2019 11:57 pm : link
Compared to other guys we’ve brought in he looks great. We’re due after the nassibs, woodsons, bomars lol
After what they said about Webb  
adamg : 6/10/2019 2:29 am : link
some skepticism is healthy, I would wager.
and the house organ continues to play a lovely tune  
HomerJones45 : 6/10/2019 4:15 am : link
I will poo-poo OTA's. He's not overwhelmed by 3 or 4 days of flag tag football where he can't be hit. Bravo! He's able to complete passes over a bunch of rookie and UDFA's DB's? Hurray!

Let's see what happens when he has to play against another team whose DC is sending blitzers after him who are actually going to whack him backed up by vet db's defending this clown set of wideouts we have. Until then, all we have is a bunch of giants.com propaganda about a flag tag event.
RE: and the house organ continues to play a lovely tune  
joeinpa : 6/10/2019 6:14 am : link
In comment 14467836 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
I will poo-poo OTA's. He's not overwhelmed by 3 or 4 days of flag tag football where he can't be hit. Bravo! He's able to complete passes over a bunch of rookie and UDFA's DB's? Hurray!

Let's see what happens when he has to play against another team whose DC is sending blitzers after him who are actually going to whack him backed up by vet db's defending this clown set of wideouts we have. Until then, all we have is a bunch of giants.com propaganda about a flag tag event.


Ok then. Thanks for sharing
RE: RE: “Accept mediocrity”  
gmenatlarge : 6/10/2019 7:38 am : link
In comment 14467695 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14467664 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


What does that even mean? Getting mad at a team means you don’t accept it and being optimistic means you do?

Embarrassing.



Yes, embarrassing some fans accept mediocrity. I don;t have the time to dumb it down for you further.


"mediocrity" would be a noticeable improvement at this point!
You don’t sound cool  
UConn4523 : 6/10/2019 7:50 am : link
by saying you don’t accept mediocrity. You aren’t a better fan because of your “hard nosed” posts. You are angry at a sports team, think about that.

If fans want to be optimistic, it’s just that. We are accepting that this is sports, it’s entertainment, and it isn’t the end of the world if we stink. I for one think the team is headed in the right direction but if I’m wrong and we stink again, I won’t lose a minute of sleep over it. It is t that serious.
RE: and the house organ continues to play a lovely tune  
Big Blue '56 : 6/10/2019 8:03 am : link
In comment 14467836 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
I will poo-poo OTA's. He's not overwhelmed by 3 or 4 days of flag tag football where he can't be hit. Bravo! He's able to complete passes over a bunch of rookie and UDFA's DB's? Hurray!

Let's see what happens when he has to play against another team whose DC is sending blitzers after him who are actually going to whack him backed up by vet db's defending this clown set of wideouts we have. Until then, all we have is a bunch of giants.com propaganda about a flag tag event.


I too completely discount OTAs. My faith is totally in Shurmur and his assessment of Jones when drafted. What he’s shown so far truly means squat. I am very optimistic because of Shurmur, not at all because of non-pressure shorts and shells football tossing. Game action will be my ONLY barometer for fan opinion.
Spurned Rosen-lovers won’t easily let go.  
flycatcher : 6/10/2019 8:04 am : link
May their wailings be wind in DJ’s sails.
I do agree that if he was playing poorly, we'd definitely have a ton  
Heisenberg : 6/10/2019 8:06 am : link
of articles describing his poor play in great detail. Furthermore, if he was a well regarded pick and was playing well, there would be stories about how good he is. But the league-wide backlash from the pick probably is a disincentive for any writers to stick their necks out and proclaim that maybe he won't be a bust.

As has been noted, it's football in shorts season. Nothing really matters until he plays in actual games.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 6/10/2019 8:16 am : link
I seem to have struck a nerve here and I'm not sure why.

EARLY reports on Daniel Jones could be good, bad, or somewhere in the middle. They have been good. Not sure why this a bad or controversial thing.

Bw in dc... per your post... I must have missed those national reports saying Jones is doing well. I keep hearing that Haskins was the better choice.
RE: Again...  
UberAlias : 6/10/2019 8:20 am : link
In comment 14467776 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
this is not a "he's going to be great" vs. "he was over-drafted" argument.

The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.

The alternative would certainly be drawing the ire of fans and media everywhere.
Fair enough Eric. But you have to look at the context. This team has been bad, and for a long time. The rot has been there from the top down. In terms of scouting, there seems to be be improvement (though many here way jumping the gun on that, even then) but there has also been a lot of questionable moves. That doesn't mean bad, but given the recent history, I would suggest some skepticism is warranted.

So, yes, it's nice to hear some encouraging things about the young QB. At the same time, the guy was the #6 overall pick in the draft, so the bar is going to be very high. He could be good player and still not be "good enough". That luxury was lost when the team decided Jones was "too good" to risk not being there at 17.

The matter is complicated further with this nonsense about handing the position to Eli and declaring it his unconditionally provided the team remains in contention. So we have Jones learning fast. Great --so he'll be ready for action, but won't actually see any. Not unless we're sitting at home watching meaningless football...again. So I'll add this to the list of questionable big picture decisions.
RE: I still  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."

Eric, you forgot how quickly he processes new information, how quickly he is learning the new offense.
Jones might turn out to be good, he might not  
Greg from LI : 6/10/2019 9:45 am : link
But I see no reason to pay any attention to OTAs.
RE: RE: I still  
Giantz_comeback : 6/10/2019 10:09 am : link
In comment 14467987 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14467503 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


don't get the "nothing he does in spring matters" argument.

Sure it does. It matters how his arm looks. It matters about his accuracy. It matters about his decision making. It matters how his teammates are taking to him. It matters how he handles the pressure from the fans and media. It matters how he handles the press.

The alternative would also "matter."


Eric, you forgot how quickly he processes new information, how quickly he is learning the new offense.


For a QB I'd say it matters even more. To start off well shows they process information quickly and are able to execute it on the field in game action when they only have 2.5 seconds to read, make the best decision, and then accurately deliver the ball in a location that gives the WR the best advantage over the defense depending on look/spacing/formation at the time the ball is thrown.

Not the end all be all but a very encouraging sign.
RE: RE: Again...  
Giantz_comeback : 6/10/2019 10:15 am : link
In comment 14467876 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14467776 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is not a "he's going to be great" vs. "he was over-drafted" argument.

The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.

The alternative would certainly be drawing the ire of fans and media everywhere.

Fair enough Eric. But you have to look at the context. This team has been bad, and for a long time. The rot has been there from the top down. In terms of scouting, there seems to be be improvement (though many here way jumping the gun on that, even then) but there has also been a lot of questionable moves. That doesn't mean bad, but given the recent history, I would suggest some skepticism is warranted.

So, yes, it's nice to hear some encouraging things about the young QB. At the same time, the guy was the #6 overall pick in the draft, so the bar is going to be very high. He could be good player and still not be "good enough". That luxury was lost when the team decided Jones was "too good" to risk not being there at 17.

The matter is complicated further with this nonsense about handing the position to Eli and declaring it his unconditionally provided the team remains in contention. So we have Jones learning fast. Great --so he'll be ready for action, but won't actually see any. Not unless we're sitting at home watching meaningless football...again. So I'll add this to the list of questionable big picture decisions.


If Jones turns out to be 'the goods' a franchise QB always trumps everything else when it is an immediate need position or upcoming need position in the near future (within 1 year maybe even 2). Even a great ER.

In our case our starting QB is 39 and on the last year of his contract. this is quite likely Elis last year here and this team isn't expecting to be picking in the top 10 in the next few drafts. DG has rebuilt a heck of a foundation here and improved a lot of the building blocks and of course the culture. I think it pays dividends starting next year.
Eli  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 10:32 am : link
who is a very cerebral QB struggled at first when trying to learn the new offense. I will never forget the panic after his first minicamp practice especially one play where he threw it where there was absolutely no player in the vicinity. Even Eli needed several practices before he was able to feel comfortable in the new offense. Eli also had the luxury of significantly more practice time.

For the record I am not suggesting Jones is better, smarter, etc than Eli I was just pointing out how impressive it is for Jones to be this comfortable.
The other point  
BSIMatt : 6/10/2019 10:38 am : link
If you put a gun to most Giants fans heads and asked which is more talented group, the WRs/Engram vs Giants secondary...I think most would say Giants have a talent edge in the secondary. Yeah, there's no bump and run, but there is no shortage of sticky cover corners and safeties with good speed and range and if you watch the mini camp highlights these guys aren't open by 5 yards most of the time..his ball placement on some of these throws has been impressive, and that sentiment is echoed in the observations not only of beat reporters but of national reporters as well who dropped in at minicamp.
Right now I'd take Shep/Tate/Engram over our top 3 DBs  
Zeke's Alibi : 6/10/2019 10:58 am : link
You are talking about experienced vets here.

Eli came in a struggled because of the insane amount of option routes in the offense Coughlin ran.

As far as DJ, his arm strength to sidelines against NFL talent was his biggest question mark and he has answered that question. We know this guy stands tough in the pocket and keep his eyes downfield, this dude isnt Sam Bradford. We don't know for sure until the bullets fly for real, but dismiss his performance as meaningless is just not accurate.
people over valued Davis Webb  
Platos : 6/10/2019 11:08 am : link
he never looked good and always had knocks. his release was slow and he had happy feet in the pocket.

DJ doesn't look like that so far.
RE: RE: RE: We can agree...  
giantstock : 6/10/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14467815 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14467812 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14467803 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...to disagree.

Im enjoying the positivity and the excitement that it brings.




Great for you. And I hope to be aboard this season.


If I may add my $.02...
I think I have been around too long seen too much to be overly enthused or dejected this time of year.
I've seen the Giants go undefeated in the preseason looking like a juggernaut, only to end up 10 games under .500.
I have seen them look like absolute crap in the preseason, and in 2007 the 1st two games of the year, and come back and win the SB...
I'll just take it all in stride until the real bullets start flying. From what I am reading GS is reacting the same way.


Exactly.

I'm being mis-characterized here as being angry.

I just think we suck and until we stop sucking or until I see some glimmer of good play from either the QB, the OL, the WR, the DL, the LB or the secondary, I'm not going to be a cheerleader. It's not that I'm angry. I'm hopeful.

Hey on another thread others are saying we have our OLINE fixed. I don't think we do. But I'm hopeful. Just because I don't think the OLINE is fixed yet doesn't mean I'm angry in June. Just because I say I don't think we're going to be any good as a team doesn't mean I'm angry. Just because I think some fans have become too accepting of being bad or mediocre doesn't mean I'm angry in June.

If some of my posts seem angry it's because the sarcasm thrown at me warranted an angry reply imo. But oyu and i are on the same page with all.

Man-- I would have loved Dillard at 17 though I do like Lawrence.

You could make that argument but going back to  
BSIMatt : 6/10/2019 11:08 am : link
The group argument, and why I brought it up is that Jones hasn’t been running with the 1s...I think secondary is deeper than the WR group with regards to skill level.
RE: Anybody still upset about Jones being picked at #6,  
V.I.G. : 6/10/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14467515 MOOPS said:
Quote:
get over it. He wasn't going to be there at 17.
So far there's not one thing to dislike about Jones. Every surprise has been positive.
Way ahead of where most rookie QBs are mentally and physically he's shows a better than average arm, outstanding athletic ability, developing leadership skills and grasp of the playbook.

Really, what's not to like?
I'm on the Jones train.

+1
+2
+3
RE: Eric, do you know what the Pundit Graveyard is littered with?  
V.I.G. : 6/10/2019 11:14 am : link
In comment 14467576 Klaatu said:
Quote:
It's a trick question. There is no Pundit Graveyard, because those guys never have to pay a price for being wrong, and they're wrong all the time. They're very susceptible to "groupthink," even though they all come with their own biases and preconceived notions.

I don't care what the pundits think (or thought) about Jones or any other player. I'd rather put my faith in the guy whose job is on the line, and that certainly isn't any pundit. Until that faith is shown unquestionably to be misplaced, I'll go with the guy(s) making the picks, not their critics.

The Giants drafted Jones in the 1st Round, #6 overall. That's good enough for me...for now. I still want to see the kid perform when his job is on the line. I don't think that's too much to ask for. I'll concede that he's off to a good start, but this race is a marathon, not a sprint.

+4
+5
All I know is I didn't want Haskins  
V.I.G. : 6/10/2019 11:23 am : link
//
in blue
//
RE: RE: RE: RE: We can agree...  
Brown_Hornet : 6/10/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14468070 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14467815 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14467812 giantstock said:


Quote:


In comment 14467803 Brown_Hornet said:


Quote:


...to disagree.

Im enjoying the positivity and the excitement that it brings.




Great for you. And I hope to be aboard this season.


If I may add my $.02...
I think I have been around too long seen too much to be overly enthused or dejected this time of year.
I've seen the Giants go undefeated in the preseason looking like a juggernaut, only to end up 10 games under .500.
I have seen them look like absolute crap in the preseason, and in 2007 the 1st two games of the year, and come back and win the SB...
I'll just take it all in stride until the real bullets start flying. From what I am reading GS is reacting the same way.



Exactly.

I'm being mis-characterized here as being angry.

I just think we suck and until we stop sucking or until I see some glimmer of good play from either the QB, the OL, the WR, the DL, the LB or the secondary, I'm not going to be a cheerleader. It's not that I'm angry. I'm hopeful.

Hey on another thread others are saying we have our OLINE fixed. I don't think we do. But I'm hopeful. Just because I don't think the OLINE is fixed yet doesn't mean I'm angry in June. Just because I say I don't think we're going to be any good as a team doesn't mean I'm angry. Just because I think some fans have become too accepting of being bad or mediocre doesn't mean I'm angry in June.

If some of my posts seem angry it's because the sarcasm thrown at me warranted an angry reply imo. But oyu and i are on the same page with all.

Man-- I would have loved Dillard at 17 though I do like Lawrence.

No worries.
I just don't know what I don't know and couldn't control it if I did.
The Giants owe me nothing.

I have no reason to be skeptical.
None.

DJ has provided fans (and apparently teammates and coaches) with nothing but positives.
I'm rolling with the positives.

RE: DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/10/2019 11:59 am : link
In comment 14467399 gtt350 said:
Quote:
would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.

Yes, Brock Osweiler, Paxton Lynch, and Case Keenum are all evidence that Elway knows QB talent. At least as much as Michael Jordan knew basketball talent as a GM.

I'm rooting hard for Jones and I'm definitely encouraged by his performance so far (to whatever degree it's predictive at this stage), but if you're using Elway's eye for QBs as a way to give you faith in Jones, maybe pump the brakes just a bit.
I think the pt is  
joeinpa : 6/10/2019 12:06 pm : link
Up to now Jones has justified his draft position, passing all the tests OTA s and mini camp present.

The need for all the disclaimers seems to be spawned by those who felt he was a poor pick at that spot. Once again the need to be correct seems to trump taking pleasure and or hope in positive news if it is contrary to what a posters own desires were for this team
RE: DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/10/2019 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14467399 gtt350 said:
Quote:
would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.


Forget Jones for a second. Why are you given to think Elways knows QB talent? All he's done since 2014 is fail at that.
RE: RE: RE: Again...  
UberAlias : 6/10/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14468015 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14467876 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14467776 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is not a "he's going to be great" vs. "he was over-drafted" argument.

The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.

The alternative would certainly be drawing the ire of fans and media everywhere.

Fair enough Eric. But you have to look at the context. This team has been bad, and for a long time. The rot has been there from the top down. In terms of scouting, there seems to be be improvement (though many here way jumping the gun on that, even then) but there has also been a lot of questionable moves. That doesn't mean bad, but given the recent history, I would suggest some skepticism is warranted.

So, yes, it's nice to hear some encouraging things about the young QB. At the same time, the guy was the #6 overall pick in the draft, so the bar is going to be very high. He could be good player and still not be "good enough". That luxury was lost when the team decided Jones was "too good" to risk not being there at 17.

The matter is complicated further with this nonsense about handing the position to Eli and declaring it his unconditionally provided the team remains in contention. So we have Jones learning fast. Great --so he'll be ready for action, but won't actually see any. Not unless we're sitting at home watching meaningless football...again. So I'll add this to the list of questionable big picture decisions.



If Jones turns out to be 'the goods' a franchise QB always trumps everything else when it is an immediate need position or upcoming need position in the near future (within 1 year maybe even 2). Even a great ER.

In our case our starting QB is 39 and on the last year of his contract. this is quite likely Elis last year here and this team isn't expecting to be picking in the top 10 in the next few drafts. DG has rebuilt a heck of a foundation here and improved a lot of the building blocks and of course the culture. I think it pays dividends starting next year.
I agree that a franchise QB trumps any of that. But the expectations in investment from 6 verses 17 is a consideration. We need more than just "a guy you can win with".

As far for your comments about DG building a heck of a foundation --you have no way of knowing that at this point. That's a fan perspective held by many on this board. But I know a great number of fans who don;t share that feeling as well as most every non-fan. Let's not confuse un-validated opinion with fact.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14468169 UberAlias said:
Quote:


I agree that a franchise QB trumps any of that. But the expectations in investment from 6 verses 17 is a consideration. We need more than just "a guy you can win with".

As far for your comments about DG building a heck of a foundation --you have no way of knowing that at this point. That's a fan perspective held by many on this board. But I know a great number of fans who don;t share that feeling as well as most every non-fan. Let's not confuse un-validated opinion with fact.


I wouldn't put too much weight into the opinions of biased non-fans. We all know most fans of other teams don't research the young players on the Giants. They base their opinion of the Giants on whatever ESPN is telling them.
RE: ...  
Thegratefulhead : 6/10/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14467869 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I seem to have struck a nerve here and I'm not sure why.

EARLY reports on Daniel Jones could be good, bad, or somewhere in the middle. They have been good. Not sure why this a bad or controversial thing.

Bw in dc... per your post... I must have missed those national reports saying Jones is doing well. I keep hearing that Haskins was the better choice.
I have heard numerous national reports that Jones is doing very well and Haskins has looked much worse than Keenum. I think the Giants are trying to hush the Jones stuff but the players are letting the cat out of the bag. It is possible Jones blows a Giant hole in the farewell tour with accelerated development.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
UberAlias : 6/10/2019 1:02 pm : link
In comment 14468191 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14468169 UberAlias said:


Quote:




I agree that a franchise QB trumps any of that. But the expectations in investment from 6 verses 17 is a consideration. We need more than just "a guy you can win with".

As far for your comments about DG building a heck of a foundation --you have no way of knowing that at this point. That's a fan perspective held by many on this board. But I know a great number of fans who don;t share that feeling as well as most every non-fan. Let's not confuse un-validated opinion with fact.



I wouldn't put too much weight into the opinions of biased non-fans. We all know most fans of other teams don't research the young players on the Giants. They base their opinion of the Giants on whatever ESPN is telling them.
Bias non-fans? What about bias fans? There is more than a share of homerism around here. Sometimes get the idea this team is littered with all pros.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 1:59 pm : link
In comment 14468211 UberAlias said:
Quote:


Bias non-fans? What about bias fans? There is more than a share of homerism around here. Sometimes get the idea this team is littered with all pros.

What a gross exaggeration. There is only about 1-2 posters who you could argue that are like that but you are using them to represent all of BBI. Show me some examples of all these posters. I see people who are excited about the direction of the team but that is a far cry from homerism. If you want to see homerism check out fanofthejets or aceinthehouse posts.
Wait a minute  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 2:00 pm : link
Aren't you the poster who claimed that Anthony Davis to the Giants was a done deal?
RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
Giantz_comeback : 6/10/2019 2:24 pm : link
In comment 14468169 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14468015 Giantz_comeback said:


Quote:


In comment 14467876 UberAlias said:


Quote:


In comment 14467776 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


this is not a "he's going to be great" vs. "he was over-drafted" argument.

The point is that he has performed as well as could be expected through June, both mentally and physically. And that fact in my book has been under-reported and underappreciated.

The alternative would certainly be drawing the ire of fans and media everywhere.

Fair enough Eric. But you have to look at the context. This team has been bad, and for a long time. The rot has been there from the top down. In terms of scouting, there seems to be be improvement (though many here way jumping the gun on that, even then) but there has also been a lot of questionable moves. That doesn't mean bad, but given the recent history, I would suggest some skepticism is warranted.

So, yes, it's nice to hear some encouraging things about the young QB. At the same time, the guy was the #6 overall pick in the draft, so the bar is going to be very high. He could be good player and still not be "good enough". That luxury was lost when the team decided Jones was "too good" to risk not being there at 17.

The matter is complicated further with this nonsense about handing the position to Eli and declaring it his unconditionally provided the team remains in contention. So we have Jones learning fast. Great --so he'll be ready for action, but won't actually see any. Not unless we're sitting at home watching meaningless football...again. So I'll add this to the list of questionable big picture decisions.



If Jones turns out to be 'the goods' a franchise QB always trumps everything else when it is an immediate need position or upcoming need position in the near future (within 1 year maybe even 2). Even a great ER.

In our case our starting QB is 39 and on the last year of his contract. this is quite likely Elis last year here and this team isn't expecting to be picking in the top 10 in the next few drafts. DG has rebuilt a heck of a foundation here and improved a lot of the building blocks and of course the culture. I think it pays dividends starting next year.

I agree that a franchise QB trumps any of that. But the expectations in investment from 6 verses 17 is a consideration. We need more than just "a guy you can win with".

As far for your comments about DG building a heck of a foundation --you have no way of knowing that at this point. That's a fan perspective held by many on this board. But I know a great number of fans who don;t share that feeling as well as most every non-fan. Let's not confuse un-validated opinion with fact.


Some is hope for sure but the early returns on the top rooks from last year are very encouraging. Bark,Willie, BJ Hill, Carter all 4 showed varying levels of promise.

Zietler is at minumum an established high functioning LG. Peppers and Bethea at minumum should be much better fitting peices at S in this D

Tate is a professional WR who catches everything and knows how to make the first guy miss.

Will the youth gel quickly on D that to me is the biggest question. The OL barring injury should be solidly improved over what we saw when they became merely passable in the 2nd half last year.
RE: I think the pt is  
TMS : 6/10/2019 2:27 pm : link
In comment 14468124 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Up to now Jones has justified his draft position, passing all the tests OTA s and mini camp present.

The need for all the disclaimers seems to be spawned by those who felt he was a poor pick at that spot. Once again the need to be correct seems to trump taking pleasure and or hope in positive news if it is contrary to what a posters own desires were for this team
. It appears DG and his management team were sold on DJ and were glad to get him this year, even at #6. It was this year or next to take a potential EM successor. It would have cost a lot more next year to get that player in the draft. Reports sound good so far. Worry about how long it will take for all these new faces to play well as a team. That the next big test.
RE: Wait a minute  
Gatorade Dunk : 6/10/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14468277 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
Aren't you the poster who claimed that Anthony Davis to the Giants was a done deal?

That was area junc.
Lol area junk  
Ten Ton Hammer : 6/10/2019 2:32 pm : link
.
RE: RE: DG played his cards perfectly or Jones  
Mr. Bungle : 6/10/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14468161 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14467399 gtt350 said:


Quote:


would be in Denver.I think John Elway knows QB talent. We have a future all pro.



Forget Jones for a second. Why are you given to think Elways knows QB talent? All he's done since 2014 is fail at that.

I'm not sure gtt knows what "All Pro" means, either. Unless he really does think Jones will the THE best QB in the entire NFL at some point.
RE: RE: I think the pt is  
Giantz_comeback : 6/10/2019 2:35 pm : link
In comment 14468309 TMS said:
Quote:
In comment 14468124 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Up to now Jones has justified his draft position, passing all the tests OTA s and mini camp present.

The need for all the disclaimers seems to be spawned by those who felt he was a poor pick at that spot. Once again the need to be correct seems to trump taking pleasure and or hope in positive news if it is contrary to what a posters own desires were for this team

. It appears DG and his management team were sold on DJ and were glad to get him this year, even at #6. It was this year or next to take a potential EM successor. It would have cost a lot more next year to get that player in the draft. Reports sound good so far. Worry about how long it will take for all these new faces to play well as a team. That the next big test.


Exactly and it's mostly on defense. The offense should pick up where they left off in the 2nd half pretty quickly.
RE: RE: ...  
bw in dc : 6/10/2019 4:23 pm : link
In comment 14468210 Thegratefulhead said:
Quote:
In comment 14467869 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I seem to have struck a nerve here and I'm not sure why.

EARLY reports on Daniel Jones could be good, bad, or somewhere in the middle. They have been good. Not sure why this a bad or controversial thing.

Bw in dc... per your post... I must have missed those national reports saying Jones is doing well. I keep hearing that Haskins was the better choice.

I have heard numerous national reports that Jones is doing very well and Haskins has looked much worse than Keenum. I think the Giants are trying to hush the Jones stuff but the players are letting the cat out of the bag. It is possible Jones blows a Giant hole in the farewell tour with accelerated development.


Thanks. That's exactly how I have heard it. Living here in the DC area, there has been a lot of mixed reviews thus far on Haskins. He's been very inconsistent day to day, series to series.

I don't like the Jones pick (see him as second round value), but would have equally disappointed in Haskins. I still think he was hugely overrated.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
UberAlias : 6/10/2019 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14468276 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14468211 UberAlias said:


Quote:




Bias non-fans? What about bias fans? There is more than a share of homerism around here. Sometimes get the idea this team is littered with all pros.


What a gross exaggeration. There is only about 1-2 posters who you could argue that are like that but you are using them to represent all of BBI. Show me some examples of all these posters. I see people who are excited about the direction of the team but that is a far cry from homerism. If you want to see homerism check out fanofthejets or aceinthehouse posts.
Homerism only exists for other other teams I guess, is that it? I guess you've never followed a training camp around here with all of the home town camp superstars. The team has been bad for a long time, yet every year there is more than a share of optimism following the draft through camp. Before the 2017 season the consensus was this team was a SB contender. We consistently overrate any young player who show any sign of promise. We crap all over JR drafts now, but at the time, there was nearly always optimism following. For many there is a clear pattern -even if they don't like a draft initially, they will invariably "come around" to it (i.e. talk themselves into it) in the days or weeks following as they read things. We saw this in how many JR drafts that ultimately yielded zero for us in a short order. This is the research you speak of, but there is unquestionable bias' in play. I used to laugh at Jets fans always hyping some unknown guy as the next thing. We have that here too, admit it or not.
Got it  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 5:01 pm : link
So praising Jones' progress is the same as hyping him as "the next thing."
RE: Got it  
UberAlias : 6/10/2019 5:09 pm : link
In comment 14468439 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
So praising Jones' progress is the same as hyping him as "the next thing."
Nothing wrong with praising Jones. Not sure where you got that, but okay...
Of course every fan base has homers  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 5:09 pm : link
As someone who lived in Maryland for 5 years I can assure you that no fan base has more than the Redskins. I guess the correct term is delusional.
RE: RE: Got it  
Jay on the Island : 6/10/2019 5:13 pm : link
In comment 14468449 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14468439 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


So praising Jones' progress is the same as hyping him as "the next thing."

Nothing wrong with praising Jones. Not sure where you got that, but okay...

Well you said that people here are claiming that this team is filled with all-pro's but I don't see anyone stating that. I see people posting reactions to these OTA and minicamp reports but from what I am seeing most of them are remaining cautiously optimistic. I asked for current examples and you started talking about the Reese era, 2017, etc.

There is reason's to be excited but this team is still at least a year away but it appears to be heading in the right direction. If Saquon Barkley doesn't get you excited then I don't know what will. This team still has plenty of holes but there are fewer than there was were when Gettleman first arrived.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Again...  
giantstock : 6/10/2019 5:28 pm : link
In comment 14468425 UberAlias said:
Quote:
In comment 14468276 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14468211 UberAlias said:


Quote:




Bias non-fans? What about bias fans? There is more than a share of homerism around here. Sometimes get the idea this team is littered with all pros.


What a gross exaggeration. There is only about 1-2 posters who you could argue that are like that but you are using them to represent all of BBI. Show me some examples of all these posters. I see people who are excited about the direction of the team but that is a far cry from homerism. If you want to see homerism check out fanofthejets or aceinthehouse posts.

Homerism only exists for other other teams I guess, is that it? I guess you've never followed a training camp around here with all of the home town camp superstars. The team has been bad for a long time, yet every year there is more than a share of optimism following the draft through camp. Before the 2017 season the consensus was this team was a SB contender. We consistently overrate any young player who show any sign of promise. We crap all over JR drafts now, but at the time, there was nearly always optimism following. For many there is a clear pattern -even if they don't like a draft initially, they will invariably "come around" to it (i.e. talk themselves into it) in the days or weeks following as they read things. We saw this in how many JR drafts that ultimately yielded zero for us in a short order. This is the research you speak of, but there is unquestionable bias' in play. I used to laugh at Jets fans always hyping some unknown guy as the next thing. We have that here too, admit it or not.


+1
So what do we call him ... ?  
Manny in CA : 6/10/2019 7:41 pm : link

"Daniel Jones," Jones", "Daniel", "Dan" , "the kid" ... ?

As I recall, we didn't have a problem calling Eli, just "Eli" right from the beginning.
I think I recall someone mentioning Barkley  
BSIMatt : 6/10/2019 7:53 pm : link
Referring to Jones as DJ in practices.
Sounds good to me ....  
Manny in CA : 6/10/2019 8:16 pm : link

DJ it is !
His nickname in HS was Swag  
George from PA : 6/11/2019 3:27 am : link
And he goes by Daniel......no one calls him Dan, Danny, etc.
RE: Doesnt seem fair that he wont get a real shot  
Leg of Theismann : 6/11/2019 3:34 am : link
In comment 14467373 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
To win the starting job.it flies against everything fans preach about wanting players to hold jobs on merit.


What are you talking about? As "impressive" as he has been it is quite clear (and the article even states this) that he is far from being ready to supplant Eli as the starter. Eli is going to be the starter because in 2019 he will clearly be the best QB in a Giants uniform.
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